Advanced Marksmanship Trouble with pulse in sitting position

[NativeCraft]

I'm having trouble with pulse in my sitting position, regardless of how I contort myself.
I'm very flexible and use a cross-legged position with my heels tucked up fairly tight under my thighs. I have to tuck my left foot rather tight in order to get enough height on the rear of the rifle. I have a rather long upper torso and have to sit up fairly high. I try to keep the rifle verticle. I unbutton my pants. Medium to slim build, 6'2 - 200 lbs.
Any suggestions as to what I can try to eliminate some of this pulse?

 

[Request Dust Off]

Re: Trouble with pulse in sitting position

I tried to use the crossed leg sitting on feet position like yours and I never shot well sitting. (5 matches) I just started playing with legs crossed feet out and it seems better for me. I have only practiced the postion dry fire. So far my NPOA has worked out better. I find it easier to adjust my position. I don't have the ability to drop right into the perfect position as others seem to do. I think mags changes will be easier as well.

Sitting has been my weakest link. Probably because my position was forced.

 

[JeffinTX]

Re: Trouble with pulse in sitting position

"my heels tucked up fairly tight under my thighs"

That doesn't even start to sound comfortable. More importantly, with the foot/heel under the muscle of the thigh, there is NO direct skeletal support for your left arm, so there will be more pulse bounce. If you're shooting CMP/Leg matches, where you are still required to start from a standing position into sitting, your position also sounds like it would take a little more time and trouble to get into. I would suggest two things to try: first, if you are tall and lanky, a crossed ankle or pseudo crossed ankle (see D. Tubbs book on his position) maybe easier to get into and maintain a solid position. Secondly, don't try to keep the rifle verticle just because "you're supposed to". Find a solid position and you'll probably find the gun will want to cant outwards. Don't fight it, that's where it will be to maintain proper rear sight alignment. Remember, its only 200yds, and what little effect the cant has on zeros you just need to record it as part of your zeros for that line.
good luck

 

[Request Dust Off]

Re: Trouble with pulse in sitting position

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 7x57</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If you're shooting CMP/Leg matches, where you are still required to start from a standing position into sitting, your position also sounds like it would take a little more time and trouble to get into. </div></div>
That is one reason I didn't like it. I was taught that way by 2 different hi-power shooters. One is D.R., Presidents 100 and is quite good. I just thought I would "get it" at some point. It finally got me. I just decided to try something else. I am really looking forward to test the crossed ankle method live fire.

http://www.odcmp.org/0307/default.asp?page=USAMU_CASITTING
Pics aren't the best in that article. You can find some videos on youtube the show the position better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvWIYg3aJhs

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Trouble with pulse in sitting position

Assuming you are right handed -

I chased a sitting pulse for oh 4 years. It was hardly ever there in practice but often there in matches, particularly if it was hot and my heart was beating harder. Brandon Green of the AMU spent 5 minutes with me at CMP week in 2008 and got me sorted out. Turned out where my right foot made contact with my left leg I was on a major vein or artery and the pulse was coming from there. I moved my left foot out to where the bone of the side of my knee sits on the sole of my boot for support. Yes sometimes it hurts, but the pulse is gone and it is much more stable.

Try taking both feet further out to be under the knees so that there is little or no muscle contact between the legs and the boots.

You can add height back into the position by bringing the rifle closer to he body, making the left arm more vertical, and the hand short stocked closer to the receiver yet still relaxed and held in place by sling pressure. The right elbow can then move from the right knee inward, even onto the thigh, with no problems as the right arm should be along for the ride with the support coming from the left arm, just like in prone.

When you mount the rifle, push it way in against your body, not riding out far on your shoulder muscle.

Lastly, look at your right hand pressure. You can get a pulse coming up through your trigger hand as well. As stated above, your right hand should be along for the ride, not providing triangulated pressure on the rifle in establishing your NPA. If you relax your right arm and you lose your NPA, then your NPA is not being correctly set with your left arm and body position.

 

[NativeCraft]

Re: Trouble with pulse in sitting position

I'm going to try some different positioning this afternoon.

Quoting from Grant Singley on the CMP website:
"First, the crossed-ankled position is not for everyone. Many people find that their legs are too flexible to keep their knees up off the ground."

That's my trouble with the crossed-ankle position - I'm too flexible...almost like Gumby, dammit.

Next week I'll be attending the HP Clinic for a second time at Butner (Eastern Games) and I'm hoping to get some of the AMU guys to help me work it out with my positions.

 

[NativeCraft]

Re: Trouble with pulse in sitting position

OK - I played around this afternoon and it seems like the sorta cross-ankled position like the guy is shooting in the YouTube video is going to work out best for me.
Maybe I'm expecting too much out of the sitting position. I want it to be as stable as prone, but I know that's unrealistic...else we wouldn't be only shooting sitting at 200 yds. now would we?

I'm hoping the USAMU guys can critique my position some next week and maybe get me really set up for success.

 

[jwoolf]

Re: Trouble with pulse in sitting position

Don't forget the sling web around your arm. If it's not in the right place, you will get a lot of pulse there too.

This may be obvious but, it's still worth mentioning.

 

[Request Dust Off]

Re: Trouble with pulse in sitting position

I've even heard of pulse being picked up by sling at wrist. I don't know how to tell where a pulse is coming from. It does seem that once you notice it, it only gets worse.

 

[Request Dust Off]

Re: Trouble with pulse in sitting position

_9H,
Nice informative post.

Small world. My neighbor & I are both Brandon Green fans. The thing I noticed about Brandon is he seems to think and speek in positives not negatives.

I shot Brandon's rifle at a match. It was his "Turtle Rifle" as he put it. .223 bolt gun. Made me realize I could handle a lighter trigger and NF scopes are NICE. My first sighter shot was a 9 high right. I decided not to correct & see what happened on the second sighter. Less than 3/4" away at 600yds according to target puller. That was a thrill in itself. Brandon shot a 599 I think for a new record.

I recently shot a regional CMP leg match and there were a bunch of USMC, AMU & NG shooters. All seemed to be top notch all around. George Morgan & I shot on the same target. My first foray past 200yds. 600 with open sights is more intimidating than anything. Once it was my turn it was not as bad as I anticipated.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Trouble with pulse in sitting position

Very cool RDO. So you live by and shoot and Ft. Benning... Humm I'm considering shooting the GA state championships as it coincides with the USAS National Championships going on down there and a friend will most likely be there for that.

Hang in there with the over 200 yard shooting. The funny thing is, kids are not intimidated by the distance. They just execute the fundamentals and the shots come up in the middle. Adults seem to get all hung up on distance and forget about what puts the shots in the middle. 10 meters, 50 meters, or 1000 yards, it's all basically the same, except the HP targets have bigger X and 10 rings so technically it is easier.

The 10/X area is the easiest part of the target to intentionally hit. Most people don't get that. If I said, "lay down there and shoot me an 8", you'd be hard pressed to pull that off. A 10/X is much easier in comparison.

Think about that one for a while.

 

[NativeCraft]

Re: Trouble with pulse in sitting position

I, too, had Brandon Green work with me at last year's CMP Eastern Games. He, and all of the guys on the AMU that I met at the clinic, were outstanding guys (and gals in the case of Sheri Gallagher-Hurd).
I know it's those guys' jobs to instruct like they do, but you can tell that in their hearts they really want to help you...not just going through the motions because they have to. That makes all the difference to me.

 

[Request Dust Off]

Re: Trouble with pulse in sitting position

_9H,
I might be pretty good I can hit 8's. Even 5's & misses, if I try hard enough. The worst is the bad shot the I have no clue why. That is a total failure. The second match I shot was a 200 reduced and I got a 425 6X out of 500. Last match was a no sighter XTC I got a 434 4x. I shot a 96 standing so I think my positions just need some work.

I'm out of New Orleans area. I am lucky. The LSA (Louisiana Shooting Association) has rifles that cost $5 to rent and match ammo is 50 cent a round. The rifle is sorted for zero & drops. I have even been able to use a loaner jacket the LSA has. A lot of guys have no access to help, equipment or venue. The junior program here is pretty strong as well.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Trouble with pulse in sitting position

More sweatshirts under your shooting jacket. Work on you sling and RELAX.

 

[jpretle]

Re: Trouble with pulse in sitting position

Try your sling well above the bicep and bring your support hand back, toward the receiver. This will raise your position. Also, bringing the rifle closer, into your body, will put you more behind the rifle.
Once you have found your position, spend a few seconds mentally relaxing, before going into your string of fire.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Trouble with pulse in sitting position

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jpretle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Try your sling well above the bicep and bring your support hand back, toward the receiver. This will raise your position. Also, bringing the rifle closer, into your body, will put you more behind the rifle.
Once you have found your position, spend a few seconds mentally relaxing, before going into your string of fire.
</div></div>

That's my technique too. No pulse if I just take the prep period to relax into the position. The key is to let the sling support it all and short stock to the hold required.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Trouble with pulse in sitting position

Mine as well.

Whenever I would shoot slung, I would wear my shooting jacket, which has padding applied to the upper arm area, <span style="font-style: italic">primarily to prevent the sling loop from choking circulation in the supporting arm</span>. This is what would trigger the pulse condition for me.

I considered a sling anchor that looped behind the back and came back around under the right arm, taking the load off the arm, and also a clip anchor to a reinforced portion of the shooting jacket, but at least one of these options was specifically prohibited under Highpower rules.

These days, due to a recently broken left humerus and rather significantly dinged left shoulder joint, positional shooting is extremely difficult for me, so I seldom, if ever, sling up anymore.

Greg

 

[NativeCraft]

Re: Trouble with pulse in sitting position

OK guys, here's the latest.
I was fortunate enough to have THE Grant Singley from the USAMU spend some time with me this past week at the Eastern CMP Games HP Clinic. He got me switched over from the cross-legged to crossed-ankle shooting position and things are much better now. I wore that target out in Thursday's practice match.

If I could just have those guys help me about once a month, I'd be Distinguished in a single season.....

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Trouble with pulse in sitting position

That is awesome Nativecraft! Grant is a cool guy. I remember going up to him several years ago and asking to shake his and in front of some of the other AMU guys. They ribbed the crap out of him right on the spot - "oh, can I touch you Grant?" one said. I think that was the year he walked off the stage during CMP week with a stack of wood 8 trophies deep, then went on to do the same at NRA week. The guy is unbelievable.

Good luck with the NM shooting!