Truing a ballastic app

warnera1102

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So I have been logging data and trying to back the data into my strelok app. So I'm using 184 bergers (7mm) and on the magneto speed I have an average velocity of 2850fps.
Up to about 700-800 yards the app using a G1 of .695 ( per the box) and a 2850 velocity everything is spot on. As I get past 1000 I am having to increase my velocity ( 2950 or g1 to .700+). For instance today at 1340 yards I used 38.8 moa vs the app saying 40)
Does this seem typical?
 

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I'm not a believer in changing known data to fit a answer. If you have known speed....lock it down and play with the BC. In less than the first second of flight, BC hasn't had a chance to kick in yet. The bullet hasn't had a chance to go..."Oh yea....my BC is x and I should react to the conditions like y." BC on the box is an average for that barrel, that speed, under those conditions....which you aren't duplicating. So, true your BC at farther and farther distances until you can build a curve that fits your ammo, in your rifle.
 
I'm not a believer in changing known data to fit a answer. If you have known speed....lock it down and play with the BC. In less than the first second of flight, BC hasn't had a chance to kick in yet. The bullet hasn't had a chance to go..."Oh yea....my BC is x and I should react to the conditions like y." BC on the box is an average for that barrel, that speed, under those conditions....which you aren't duplicating. So, true your BC at farther and farther distances until you can build a curve that fits your ammo, in your rifle.
Ok, I'll definitely go that route.
I need to sit down ant mess it with some more.
I just want to stay on steel but I also know 1 moa at that distance will be a potential miss.
 
Be sure of all your input data. Be aware of all your technique while shooting (how much of the difference is YOUR influence?).

To emphasize what @b2lee said about changing known data but from a different angle; the velocity truing would be a 3.6% difference, the BC a 0.8%.
Which do you think is closer to reality? IMO the BC change.
 
If everything is spot on to 700 or so and then it gets weird, it’s definitely a BC variation. As your speed decays at distance, the published BC, which is an average collected under different circumstance, starts to be inaccurate. Adjust the BC in the app until the 1340 number is the same as what it took (38.8?). Try to get actual dope for 800, 900, 1000 so you can tweak the BC in the calculator to get a best fit match for all the distances.

Some tips: -be as precise in your shooting and targeting as you are capable of being….you want the “actual” dope to be as precise as possible so you are adjusting the app toward an accurate goal.

-do it at the range if your app/calculator is reading atmospherics and elevation in real time. You don’t want to take your actual data up to the house and then try to match it under different atmospherics than the ones you shot in.

-turn off spin drift, Coriolus, and make sure the wind value is zero so that there is nothing adding value to the calculator output. Turn all that stuff back on at your own peril.

Ymmv, but these things have not failed me yet.
 
Thanks guys I will sit down and go over this again tonight. I typically take good notes of weather conditions, so I should be able to manually recreate yesterday. Sadly yesterday wasn't the best setup as it was last minute and I didnt have a spotter nor white paint .All I had was red duct tape and camo paint in my tool box so that is why the target is tan...on a tan backdrop... haha. I put a red strip across the center and the first hit took that off. I really hate the vertical is pretty extreme but I didnt know my exact impact locations until I went to the target, I could only tell based on how the target would swing.
 
you can blame the BC or the App or the velocity, but first, rule out your other measurement assumptions. Have you checked if the turret is true by measuring on an 8'4" tall ruler at 100 yards, as measured to within a couple of inches of accuracy? Long distance lasers (with a +/- 1-2 yard accuracy) and tall targets are incompatible, you need a Leica Disto D2 or a 100 yard tape pulled straight and taut and everything must be perfectly level during the test. So be careful before doing this test. Being off by two yards short at 100 for the 8'4" tall ruler test means you will read 2% error. If your turrets are 2% too "small" meaning they turn .245 MOA per click instead of .250 per click, you will not discover the error - your scope will match the 8'4" ruler test and you will think your scope is true but it is actually 2% short because your test ruler was 2% short. If your laser measures 2 yards (2%) too long, and your scope is 2% short, when you measure, you will measure 4% error when your scope only has 2% error - you will put into the ballistics computer that your clicks are .24 MOA when they're actually .245 MOA. And this is all assuming that you don't move the scope during the test and build in other errors. So there is no point in looking for a 1-2% error in your turrets unless your measurement/calibration procedure error is less than 0.5% or 6" at 100 yards. You need a Leica Disto D2 or a 100 yard tape measure, pulled straight and taut to do this with any reasonable accuracy and reliability.

40/38.8=3%, so that would be a lot of turret error, but errors can be additive and I have seen turrets be 3% off. What scope are you using? Turret trueness varies widely across brands and models.

Next, are you ranging the actual target or the knoll behind it? Ranging error with beam dispersion is a major source of error at longer distances, especially if you are not using a tripod to keep the laser stable.

Are your inputs for incline, DA, temperature, etc. exact and monitored at regular intervals during a shooting session? Temperature change of 20 degrees during a shooting session can cause large error, compounded by powder temp sensitivity (hotter air, less drop; hotter ammo, faster speed, less drop than predicted.)

Is your powder temperature sensitive? Are you measuring velocity with the shots at 1000+ yards (magnetospeed attached or labradar used) to make sure your zero velocity is accurate for the longer shots shooting session?

Is scope height precisely measured? Is the scope perfectly level using a plumb line at distance (not the scope cap method - that's the quick and dirty and error prone method)? If scope is canted, that cant takes away from elevation and adds it to windage. No bueno.

All of these things are unknowns and potential sources of error until they have been exquisitely accurately measured

The industry standard is AB G7 or their custom drag curve which you can purchase for $9.99, the cost of just 5-10 rounds. Personally I would not mess around with a G1 off the box. Penny wise and pound foolish.

Up to 800 can be done with sloppy methods and a .308. It's past 1000 where every variable counts.
 
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you can blame the BC or the App or the velocity, but first, rule out your other measurement assumptions. Have you checked if the turret is true by measuring on an 8'4" tall ruler at 100 yards, as measured to within a couple of inches of accuracy? Long distance lasers (with a +/- 1-2 yard accuracy) and tall targets are incompatible, you need a Leica Disto D2 or a 100 yard tape pulled straight and taut and everything must be perfectly level during the test. So be careful before doing this test. Being off by two yards short at 100 for the 8'4" tall ruler test means you will read 2% error. If your turrets are 2% too "small" meaning they turn .245 MOA per click instead of .250 per click, you will not discover the error - your scope will match the 8'4" ruler test and you will think your scope is true but it is actually 2% short because your test ruler was 2% short. If your laser measures 2 yards (2%) too long, and your scope is 2% short, when you measure, you will measure 4% error when your scope only has 2% error - you will put into the ballistics computer that your clicks are .24 MOA when they're actually .245 MOA. And this is all assuming that you don't move the scope during the test and build in other errors. So there is no point in looking for a 1-2% error in your turrets unless your measurement/calibration procedure error is less than 0.5% or 6" at 100 yards. You need a Leica Disto D2 or a 100 yard tape measure, pulled straight and taut to do this with any reasonable accuracy and reliability.

40/38.8=3%, so that would be a lot of turret error, but errors can be additive and I have seen turrets be 3% off. What scope are you using? Turret trueness varies widely across brands and models.

Next, are you ranging the actual target or the knoll behind it? Ranging error with beam dispersion is a major source of error at longer distances, especially if you are not using a tripod to keep the laser stable.

Are your inputs for incline, DA, temperature, etc. exact and monitored at regular intervals during a shooting session? Temperature change of 20 degrees during a shooting session can cause large error, compounded by powder temp sensitivity (hotter air, less drop; hotter ammo, faster speed, less drop than predicted.)

Is your powder temperature sensitive? Are you measuring velocity with the shots at 1000+ yards (magnetospeed attached or labradar used) to make sure your zero velocity is accurate for the longer shots shooting session?

Is scope height precisely measured? Is the scope perfectly level using a plumb line at distance (not the scope cap method - that's the quick and dirty and error prone method)? If scope is canted, that cant takes away from elevation and makes it the hypotenuse of a right triangle, which must be corrected for but cannot be if the exact cant is unknown.

All of these things are unknowns and potential sources of error until they have been exquisitely accurately measured

The industry standard is AB G7 or their custom drag curve which you can purchase for $9.99, the cost of just 5-10 rounds. Personally I would not mess around with a G1 off the box. Penny wise and pound foolish.

Up to 800 can be done with sloppy methods and a .308. It's past 1000 where every variable counts.
In which branch of engineering are you trained?

With all due respect, while this may all be a technically accurate (except for the part about AB G7 being “industry standard”) getting reliable data even out to 1400 yds is nowhere near this complicated. You personally may need exquisite accuracy in your measurements, taut tapes, perfect levels, giant rulers, a Leica Disto D2 and three graphing calculators to true your data but the same thing can be achieved with a handful of known distance targets and a box of ammo.

Insert joke about calculating coefficient of rigidity, penetration angle, insertion velocity, etc. etc. etc. while your wife gets bored and falls asleep.
 
In which branch of engineering are you trained?

With all due respect, while this may all be a technically accurate (except for the part about AB G7 being “industry standard”) getting reliable data even out to 1400 yds is nowhere near this complicated. You personally may need exquisite accuracy in your measurements, taut tapes, perfect levels, giant rulers, a Leica Disto D2 and three graphing calculators to true your data but the same thing can be achieved with a handful of known distance targets and a box of ammo.

Insert joke about calculating coefficient of rigidity, penetration angle, insertion velocity, etc. etc. etc. while your wife gets bored and falls asleep.
I would definitely be using a G7 curve. I do think he may have gone overboard with all the measuring I think the long and short of it is shoot a tall target and see if your clicks add up or if you need to make a correction.
My advice would be true your velocity at around 1350 fps. (strelok will give you this distance). see how it tracks after that. If it's not sweet try adjusting your BC till it matches. If you need to after that create your own multi BC using strelok and actual known DOPE.
 
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Does your app have g1 drag function selected…since you are using g1 bc? If you switch to g7 BC (which you should at least try) make sure you tell the app to use the g7 drag model. Just a thought.
 
I have spent many hours beyond 2000 yards trying to figure out why ballistic calculator predictions did not line up with field results. I wasted a ton of ammo in the process. IMHO it is way better to spend the time doing the setup rather than trying to identify the errors in the field & wasting ammo

I am correct about the tall target test. Your range error to your tall target/ruler needs to be 1 foot or less. And your terrapin and my PLEF15 is NOT capable of that. If you’re not within 1 foot of 300 feet, you are incapable of measuring the small errors in your turret and your “corrected” clicks may be worse than just ignoring the error. I know this from doing it over and over and finding that each time my results differed because doing it properly requires extremely precise measurement. It’s just simple math and trigonometry but you have to get it right. If you do the tall target at 99 yards you’re building in 1% error into your turrets. There is no escaping that.

I decided to stop wasting 375CT and 50 BMG ammo trying to true my curves in the field with unknown starting inputs.

YMMV
 
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I would definitely be using a G7 curve. I do think he may have gone overboard with all the measuring I think the long and short of it is shoot a tall target and see if your clicks add up or if you need to make a correction.
My advice would be true your velocity at around 1350 fps. (strelok will give you this distance). see how it tracks after that. If it's not sweet try adjusting your BC till it matches. If you need to after that create your own multi BC using strelok and actual known DOPE. my load that would be almost perfect at our 1200 yard I'm ~ 1319fps. Have a new load that shoots great out to 800 so far, but want to try what you suggest here on this load as I work back out to a mile. So true up with velo at that target with G7 parameters. Then my next targets are 1500 and 1752. If my calculated dope doesn't jive at these distances would you recommend a separate profile beyond 1200?
I've worked up a new load and want to maybe try the G7 curve this time around using Strelok Pro. I'm currently MV trued with G1 out to 797. So as luck would have it the 1200 yard berm would have me right at 1320fps so next trip out I'm going to true up G7 at that distance with MV. My next 2 targets are now into the subsonic conversation @ 1500 and 1762 yards. Let's say those two distances start giving me some discrepancies b/t calculated drop and POI so now I go to work truing with BC. Do you recommend a new profile at that point for the subsonic ranges? In my simple mind it seems the easiest thing to do, but maybe I need to stick with 1 profile and do something else. A 1200 and in G7 MV trued profile then a separate 1500 and out G7 BC trued profile? I have fresh new Labradar MV data from last week as well.

Thanks for your insight.
 
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I've worked up a new load and want to maybe try the G7 curve this time around using Strelok Pro. I'm currently MV trued with G1 out to 797. So as luck would have it the 1200 yard berm would have me right at 1320fps so next trip out I'm going to true up G7 at that distance with MV. My next 2 targets are now into the subsonic conversation @ 1500 and 1762 yards. Let's say those two distances start giving me some discrepancies b/t calculated drop and POI so now I go to work truing with BC. Do you recommend a new profile at that point for the subsonic ranges? In my simple mind it seems the easiest thing to do, but maybe I need to stick with 1 profile and do something else. A 1200 and in G7 MV trued profile then a separate 1500 and out G7 BC trued profile? I have fresh new Labradar MV data from last week as well.

Thanks for your insight.
With the mobile app I used to use I sometimes had to run two profiles for a bullet.
One for super sonic and one for past that.
Pain in the butt but it worked.
Now with a kestrel I don’t have to mess with that.
I can true up the entire range with one profile.
 
I've worked up a new load and want to maybe try the G7 curve this time around using Strelok Pro. I'm currently MV trued with G1 out to 797. So as luck would have it the 1200 yard berm would have me right at 1320fps so next trip out I'm going to true up G7 at that distance with MV. My next 2 targets are now into the subsonic conversation @ 1500 and 1762 yards. Let's say those two distances start giving me some discrepancies b/t calculated drop and POI so now I go to work truing with BC. Do you recommend a new profile at that point for the subsonic ranges? In my simple mind it seems the easiest thing to do, but maybe I need to stick with 1 profile and do something else. A 1200 and in G7 MV trued profile then a separate 1500 and out G7 BC trued profile? I have fresh new Labradar MV data from last week as well.

Thanks for your insight.
Strelok Pro offers a multi BC option because BC will degrade with velocity. I would true up your MV at 1200 yards if that is where Strelok says you'll be around 1320fps. After that try at 1500 yards and see what happens. If you miss make corrections until you hit and go into multi bc and start building a custom drag model. Set first speed at your MV with the BC you are using in single mode. Then set the next speed at what strelok thinks your velocity should be at 1500 yards then keep adjusting the second BC until your result matches your actual dope. now repeat at a mile.
 
Strelok Pro offers a multi BC option because BC will degrade with velocity. I would true up your MV at 1200 yards if that is where Strelok says you'll be around 1320fps. After that try at 1500 yards and see what happens. If you miss make corrections until you hit and go into multi bc and start building a custom drag model. Set first speed at your MV with the BC you are using in single mode. Then set the next speed at what strelok thinks your velocity should be at 1500 yards then keep adjusting the second BC until your result matches your actual dope. now repeat at a mile.
Had a great first day with Strelok Pro thanks. Thick fog and antsy to get things started so didn't wait for 1200 fog to clear, but trued the G7 curve at 797 yards with MV in mind. Made 2 very poor shots out the gate I knew were jerked plus bad shoulder hiking my nemisis.... so reset and took 3 more....elevation was exactly dead nuts waterline as good as I'm capable of so let it be. Went to take a leak and came back to find fog lifted and mile clear. My starter dope in this band of conditions at 1752 in recent months has been 24.2 plus or minus .2. Colder last couple of weeks by a good bit and knew I'd likely be more. The G7 curve told me 24.7 and it ended up being .3 low after 2 consecutive shots at same POA with POI about 6" apart vertically. Trued it to 25.0 with BC right there and next round just inside 12" bullseye. The consistency the rest of the morning with rapidly changing conditions was a real pleasure to see unfold with the weather data import. Buddy with Kestrel compared all morning and we were never more than 2* temp and 2% humidity apart from 8am until noon. I've historically had to track down weather changes on a couple of different apps and put them into the Hornady calculator which is a time suck, but the StrelokPro 'meteo' import sure impressed me at least on day 1 when compared to Kestrel. Wherever SP is getting that import data from it sure worked nicely.
 
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So I have been logging data and trying to back the data into my strelok app. So I'm using 184 bergers (7mm) and on the magneto speed I have an average velocity of 2850fps.
Up to about 700-800 yards the app using a G1 of .695 ( per the box) and a 2850 velocity everything is spot on. As I get past 1000 I am having to increase my velocity ( 2950 or g1 to .700+). For instance today at 1340 yards I used 38.8 moa vs the app saying 40)
Does this seem typical?
The app is just a guide and a distance will never ever give you the right result it’s always going to be plus or minus was there and if you’re using Soli factoring numbers that will contribute too. I was shooting some match normal 308 rounds in the velocity the quoted at 2700 2750 in that range and on the Chrono with 5 Individual runs the velocity only average down to 2560 which is quite a bit off but if you shooting and it’s 95° out with heavy humidity and the factory testing was done in 40 or 50° weather somewhere it’s gonna make it a difference
 
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