Gunsmithing Truing Remington 700 Question

[Insayn]

I've seen some really good posts by some reputable smiths here about truing and their processes. I've seen where smiths will take very little off the locking lug area and bolt lugs to finish out the "truing." I have a local smith that believes it to be a waste of time because of play in a factory action and that lapping is enough. He also doesn't square up the bolt face. Are there finite advantages to have this done or is it very minimal?

 

[300sniper]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

i'd ask him why he even bothers lapping. if there is so much play in the action that squaring everything up won't make a difference, it's hard to see how lapping will help at all.

now i won't claim to have compared fully trued to non trued actions with the same barrel to judge the improvement since there is no truly controlled way to do it. i do know that if you fit a barrel with a 1.062" thread, there is no way to change you mind down the road and change it out to a 1.072"-1.082" thread. i do it right from the get go and don't have the "what if's" down the road.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

OP, there are a lot of opinions out there. Some smiths, especially the old timers, don't see a lot of what is done today as being necessary.


Does it NEED to be trued? Opinions vary.
I wouldn't guarantee half MOA without truing the action myself.

If hes charging you little to nothing in the area of "truing" for lapping the lugs then fine, at least hes not ripping you off.

But the action will be no better than factory.

 

[Insayn]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

He still squares the action face off and cleans up the threads along with the lapping. I understand the lapping of the lugs increases surface area contact between the two surfaces, but doesn't necessarily make it square with the action face.

 

[300sniper]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Insayn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He still squares the action face off and cleans up the threads along with the lapping. I understand the lapping of the lugs increases surface area contact between the two surfaces, but doesn't necessarily make it square with the action face. </div></div>

but according to him, since there is so much clearance in the action, how is lapping the lugs going to increase surface contact in the lugs when actually machining them square and coaxial wont?

 

[Insayn]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

He is an older guy with older equipment and I can't answer for him.

 

[Insayn]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

Here is an quote out of his brochure:

"I do not call the preparations to the action "blue printing." That term usually includes re-cutting the threads and re-machining the locking lug area. Because of the loose tolerances in the Remington action, I consider those steps a waste of time and money"

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

It's all about being concentric and perpendicular to a chosen center line, usually the center line of the bolt raceway.

Try to move the bolt around when locked up on a chambered round. I think the best smiths are those that started by competing in the shooting sports and completely understanding what it took to make an accurate rifle accurate. If one hasn’t fired 1000’s of rounds down range how could he/she have that understanding?

All one has to do is mic a receiver out one time and compare the perpendicularity of the receiver face / lugs to the bolt raceway.............just once. Then and only then will they see the light.

 

[300sniper]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Insayn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is an quote out of his brochure:

"I do not call the preparations to the action "blue printing." That term usually includes re-cutting the threads and re-machining the locking lug area. Because of the loose tolerances in the Remington action, I consider those steps a waste of time and money" </div></div>

a couple of things here.

what most people call "blueprinting" is an incorrectly used term in my opinion. blueprinting would be machining an action to a predetermined spec. sure there are some people that are using cnc machines or manual machines and actually hold all dimensions to a certain spec. the very few people that do this are doing what i would refer to as "blueprinting". most people remove only the amount of material needed to square up the action. all the actions they work on may be close but will not have identical dimensions when done. in my opinion, this should be called "truing".

the next thing i see in that quote is the "loose tolerances in the remington action". the loose tolerances in remington actions is exactly why people true or blueprint them. a mass produced product is built with loose tolerances so they can be made quickly and cheaply. remington couldn't make money if they held their tolerances on their chamber concentricity or their bolt lugs square to within .0002". what people truing actions are doing is taking a mass produced action with sloppy tolerances and remachining it to much tighter tolerances.

 

[Jkob]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i'd ask him why he even bothers lapping. if there is so much play in the action that squaring everything up won't make a difference, it's hard to see how lapping will help at all.

now i won't claim to have compared fully trued to non trued actions with the same barrel to judge the improvement since there is no truly controlled way to do it. i do know that if you fit a barrel with a 1.62" thread, there is no way to change you mind down the road and change it out to a 1.72"-1.82" thread. i do it right from the get go and don't have the "what if's" down the road. </div></div>

I think your decimal point is a bit wrong here. You forgot at least one zero, 1.062" not 1.62" and 1.072" not 1.72", almost 9/16" difference.

 

[300sniper]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gundoktr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i'd ask him why he even bothers lapping. if there is so much play in the action that squaring everything up won't make a difference, it's hard to see how lapping will help at all.

now i won't claim to have compared fully trued to non trued actions with the same barrel to judge the improvement since there is no truly controlled way to do it. i do know that if you fit a barrel with a 1.62" thread, there is no way to change you mind down the road and change it out to a 1.72"-1.82" thread. i do it right from the get go and don't have the "what if's" down the road. </div></div>

I think your decimal point is a bit wrong here. You forgot at least one zero, 1.062" not 1.62" and 1.072" not 1.72", almost 9/16" difference. </div></div>

lol. i'm not sure how i made that obvious mistake. i guess i shouldn't post after a few beers.

 

[Insayn]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's all about being concentric and perpendicular to a chosen center line, usually the center line of the bolt raceway.
</div></div>

That makes sense.

 

[LRI]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Insayn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've seen some really good posts by some reputable smiths here about truing and their processes. I've seen where smiths will take very little off the locking lug area and bolt lugs to finish out the "truing." I have a local smith that believes it to be a waste of time because of play in a factory action and that lapping is enough. He also doesn't square up the bolt face. Are there finite advantages to have this done or is it very minimal? </div></div>

These kinds of threads tend to resurface here often. I'm a numbers guy. If 9 Chevy's and 1 Ford show up to a drag race chances are the little bowties are going to beat up on the pony cars.

With that said I'd encourage you to look at every marquee gunsmith in America that plays in a variety of shooting games. Bench Rest, NRA Highpower, Tactical shoots, Palma, etc. . .

See what they are doing and go from there. I think you'll find that done properly, cleaning up the lug abutments on a receiver has its merits. Lapping alone doesn't address other items like parallelism and squareness. It just means its touching. The most important aspect of this procedure in my opinion is ensuring the least amount of material possible is removed. The lug abutment location has a 1:1 relationship with primary extraction and the fire control. It's a cascading effect so it should be taken very seriously.

On a different note what I find interesting with this topic is how often receiver ring threads are ignored or discussed very lightly. Lots of attention is paid to lugs, bolt faces, bolt/receiver clearances, etc.

Remember gents, that little threaded socket is the moment from which everything else takes place. It transfers every force generated by expanding gasses and bullets traveling down the barrel.

Just something to ponder over.

 

[crashandburn]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

There seem to be more pro's than cons IMHO when you re-cut the surfaces. It's the fact that all surfaces are cut in relation to one another or cut off the same center line if you will. The action is indicated by going off the bolt raceway where the lug surface, threads and action face can be single point cut at once with out changing your set up. The bolt is then indicated in off the bolt body. Then the front,rear,sides,nose and face can all be single point cut from the same set up with out change. *Now when I go to fit my barrel which was machined in the same mannor, everything will line up strait and square to one another*. (thats the whole reason for doing the work)

It is my experience that rifles with the above stated work done to them leaves you with a consistent, accurate and forgiving weapon. The rifle will shoot pretty much everything great and some things amazing which gives you a great deal of confidence in the weapon and makes load devolpent vertually painless.

my 2 cents.

 

[dmg308]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Insayn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've seen some really good posts by some reputable smiths here about truing and their processes. I've seen where smiths will take very little off the locking lug area and bolt lugs to finish out the "truing." I have a local smith that believes it to be a waste of time because of play in a factory action and that lapping is enough. He also doesn't square up the bolt face. Are there finite advantages to have this done or is it very minimal? </div></div>

These kinds of threads tend to resurface here often. I'm a numbers guy. If 9 Chevy's and 1 Ford show up to a drag race chances are the little bowties are going to beat up on the pony cars.

With that said I'd encourage you to look at every marquee gunsmith in America that plays in a variety of shooting games. Bench Rest, NRA Highpower, Tactical shoots, Palma, etc. . .

See what they are doing and go from there. I think you'll find that done properly, cleaning up the lug abutments on a receiver has its merits. Lapping alone doesn't address other items like parallelism and squareness. It just means its touching. The most important aspect of this procedure in my opinion is ensuring the least amount of material possible is removed. The lug abutment location has a 1:1 relationship with primary extraction and the fire control. It's a cascading effect so it should be taken very seriously.

On a different note what I find interesting with this topic is how often receiver ring threads are ignored or discussed very lightly. Lots of attention is paid to lugs, bolt faces, bolt/receiver clearances, etc.

Remember gents, that little threaded socket is the moment from which everything else takes place. It transfers every force generated by expanding gasses and bullets traveling down the barrel.

Just something to ponder over. </div></div>

Chad with the reciever lug abutments trued with the action what is your thoughts on cutting the bolt lugs vs lapping them only?

 

[LRI]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question


I leave the bolt alone in almost all circumstances. When one looks at how a bolt is manufactured it's pretty hard to screw up the lug/bolt face surfaces. Surface finish could certainly be improved upon but the trade off in my opinion (regarding primary extraction and what it does to the fire control) isn't worth the miniscule gains.

I've seen receivers out a whole bunch. I don't see the bolts suffering the same plight.

Hope this helps.

C.

 

[dmg308]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I leave the bolt alone in almost all circumstances. When one looks at how a bolt is manufactured it's pretty hard to screw up the lug/bolt face surfaces. Surface finish could certainly be improved upon but the trade off in my opinion (regarding primary extraction and what it does to the fire control) isn't worth the miniscule gains.

I've seen receivers out a whole bunch. I don't see the bolts suffering the same plight.

Hope this helps.

C. </div></div>

It confirms my own findings.......Thanks!

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I leave the bolt alone in almost all circumstances. When one looks at how a bolt is manufactured it's pretty hard to screw up the lug/bolt face surfaces. </div></div>

A Remington bolt?
What about the fact that the bolt heads are soldered on crooked as all hell.
When Ive trued bolts lugs Ive only had to take off a few thou. Thats not enough to mess up Remingtons crappy-in-the-first-place extraction cam.
Remingtons extraction cams are a joke. And the firing system doesnt care about .005"

If Im guna to do the dance Im going to do it till the songs over

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dmg308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">]
Chad with the reciever lug abutments trued with the action what is your thoughts on cutting the bolt lugs vs lapping them only? </div></div>

If you lap two surfaces of equal hardness together, one being true and one not, aren't you untruing the trued surface?

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

On a different note what I find interesting with this topic is how often receiver ring threads are ignored or discussed very lightly. Lots of attention is paid to lugs, bolt faces, bolt/receiver clearances, etc.
</div></div>

Would you rather have the lugs true? the face true? or the threads true?
List in order of importance.


IMO,
Most important is receiver face
Then lugs, both bolt and reciever being equaly important
Lastly the threads.

Your opinion on this?







btw I know I need to start joining posts together. PITA when quoting though. I dont mean to make 3 consecutive posts.

 

[crashandburn]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

From the 2 actions/bolts I have tampered with, I saw in both that the bolt face required the least amount of removal for a a clean even surface.

I believe that there is a threshold for just about everything in regards to the action face, threads and lug surfaces. If the threads are too loose your perfectly flat shoulder surface will be able to shift around. If your threads bind it may not allow your perfectly flat shoulder surfaces to make perfect contact. If your action face is isn't flat then the surfaces will not make full contact etc. Short terms they all contribute in a positive manner when done correctly and with in the boundaries.

While in machine school I saw how accurate a part can turn out particularly when it is machined all in one set up start to finish. If you can indicate a part in, make all the cuts or (skim passes I should say) then why not do it? If you cut the face and threads but lap the lugs, how are you risking less with function or extraction? You have done ALMOST the same thing. The major difference is all the single point cuts where cut off the same center line from one set up while also increasing contact on all major contact surfaces.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moore_ man</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> If you cut the face and threads but lap the lugs, how are you risking less with function or extraction? </div></div>
Mr. Dixon was mentioning extraction cams because removing lug material shifts the extraction cam on the bolt rearward. Making it less effective.

Like I said though, Remingtons extraction cam is a joke IMO. For one they barely make contact from the factory, and two the material isnt hardened and just gets dented up anyways.

Not to mention that Remington never solders on their bolt handles perfectly. Ive had 1000 Remington bolts through here in the past two years and every one had a dented up extraction cam and crooked handle.

 

[crashandburn]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

So lapping simply removes less material as opposed to cutting?
I guess I kinda figured you removed enough material in either case to get the even surface but... if you only cut the action face and threads and just lap in the lug surfaces I guess you wouldn't remove as much as cutting.

 

[LRI]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you lap two surfaces of equal hardness together, one being true and one not, aren't you untruing the trued surface?</div></div>

First, if the two parts are of equal hardness you have bigger things to worry about. Bolts and receivers should NEVER be the same hardness. At a bare minimum they should be 5 solid points apart otherwise they will gall. Talk to any experienced machinist, M.E., action manufacturer, or gunmaker and they'll tell you the same thing. If they don't, politely excuse yourself and seek entertainment/advise elsewhere.

Proof is always in the pudding. When I blueprint a receiver and lap the bolt it is routinely demonstrated to me that the operation becomes more of a quality control step than anything else. The surfaces marry up rather quickly and it takes longer to clean out the lapping compound than it does to actually lap the parts. I've often debated on skipping the step entirely however I know I'd be chastised by clients and it's not worth trying to fight city hall.

Comments made about how anemic the M700 primary extraction is serves to emphasize my point. It's weak to start with so chewing even more off in the interest of truing a surface that isn't bad to begin with only further erodes the action's ability to yank out a case that much more. Given a choice between a theoretical accuracy gain vs. a gun's ability to function during service, I'll take the function/serviceability route every time. To emphasize in a different way, there's a reason why real world tactical rifles aren't chambered in neck turned wildcat cartridges.

With the equipment and software resources I have in my shop if there were benefits I'd be doing it. I've built enough of these things (13 years at it now) to (hopefully) have a reasonable understanding of how things work and need to happen.

Another point to consider. I once had a discussion with another well known/respected smith regarding bolt/receiver clearances. I will personally let a bore clearance of .005" run all day long. On a Rem700 short action this equates to a .058 degree deflection angle once the cocking piece loads up on the sear and the ass end of the bolt goes skyward until the rear bridge of the receiver stops it. .058 degrees equates to a .00018" distance between the 12 o clock bolt lug/receiver lug as this takes place. (I only know this because I took the time to solid model the thing in CAD just to find out how "bad" it is.)

He said he wouldn't allow more than .002" clearance. I have no doubt he's telling the truth.

My point is a typical human hair measures around .003" Is anyone here really going to firmly stand behind the idea that if my action allows for one and a half human hairs and shoots "X" on paper an action that only allows for 2/3rds of a hair is going to shoot "Y"??

The SR-71 blackbird pisses fuel all over the ground during take off due to how it's fuel system is designed, yet that plane safely travels over 3X the speed of sound.

Thinking in those terms I have to accept a human hairs worth of clearance in a silly bolt gun is going to be ok. Especially one in Iraq or Afghanistan.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Would you rather have the lugs true? the face true? or the threads true?
List in order of importance.</div></div>

In a perfect world I want all of it. However one must temper this stuff with what a customer is willing to pay for. The market will only bear so much. Given a clean slate and "cart blanch" to do whatever the hell I want it's an easy answer.

I do my usual receiver work, then chew on the bolt to clean it up. Next I reposition the bolt handle, cocking cam, and install one of my proprietary fire controls that converts the action to a "cock on open" only like a Nesika.

Doing it this way I retain the primary extraction and have all the added little benefits. It's also foolish because I can call PTG and have a one piece bolt made that'll do the same thing and create far less brain damage. At some point one must consider that a Rem700 is much like a Chevy Camaro. No matter how nice they are they'll all eventually end up in a trailer park with a chromed chain link steering wheel. My point being you can quickly reach a point of diminishing returns (pigs ear/silk purse) where a boutique custom action becomes a better choice.

When I made my comments about threads again it was largely brushed over. lets just paint a picture here for a moment. Go hit the gym and take as many roids as your body can stand. Get big, get strong.

Now grab a barrel by the tennon only and hang on until your ball sack pops from the strain. Attempt to hold that barrel while my 3 year old niece places her index finger on the crown and watch her steer you in any direction she wants to go.

Lets kick it up a notch now. Imagine the forces at work as the bullet is accelerated down the bore. Pressure, torque from the bullet as it accelerates from a dead stop to over 2 times the speed of sound in less than a meter. The rotational acceleration as it goes from zero to potentially over 300,000 rpm. A Rem700 action has a nominal distance of 1.150" from the lug abutment to the receiver ring. There's about .900" and change of threaded joint inside that distance. The major diameter of the thread is 1.0625 and the receiver diameter is 1.350(nominal) That means there's only about .140" of material managing all of this energy.

From that perspective it compels me to be obsessive over how well the threads between the tennon and the receiver fit one another. Bell mouth, barrel, or "pipe" are forms of taper vocabulary that should always be avoided.

I know for a fact that some boutique custom actions suffer this because they heat treat the receivers after the threads are cut. You have more mass down by the abutments vs whats at the ring. Simple physics dictates the distortion of material is going to be different. With qualified gauging you can detect it. I can feel it when I screw the barrel on. It's what compelled me to spend 6 figures on a state of the art turning center. It allows me to program around it when I machine the tennon rather than have to machine every action that comes through the door. Imagine how disenchanted a customer would be if he dropped a thousand+ dollars on an action only to be told by a guy like me that it's "junk" and I'll need to rework it.

Surface finish, flank angles, crest width, and pitch diameters are all critical components that many smits seem to ignore. The ultimate answer to this is to thread grind everything. The associative costs doesn't make this very realistic however. I went a different route. I've spent in the tens of thousands of dollars to find a tooling combination that works. Turning threads at 60rpm doesn't cut it. Look the thread flanks under magnification once and you'll soon discover why terms like "surface feet per minute" and "full thread form inserts" exist. Coolant/cutting fluid choice needs to be correct as well. A coated carbide thread insert is a marvel of engineering. Used correctly the bulk of the heat generated during stock removal will be sloughed off into the chip. The insert and the part largely remain benign to temperature change. That higher rotational speed on the surface (surface speed) allows the tool to make the material molten at the shear point. This is what produces bright, shiny threads. This reduces the friction coefficient when assembling. Allowing for higher tensile loading at the joint without galling the threads or elongating them past the tensile strength of the material. The more surface contact between the barrel tennon and receiver the more solid the joint becomes. Anschutz answers this problem by not using threads at all. The model 54 action has a press fit barrel tennon. Ever wonder why? I assure you its not for ease of manufacturing. . .

Next take a look at a crankshaft made by a company like Sonny Bryant, Crower, or Lunati. (race car chit) Observe carefully the way the journals transition to the counterweights. There's not a single 90* corner to be found anywhere. Everything has a large fillet (radius) at the corner. The reason is it makes the crank stronger and more resistant to fracture due to torsion. (twisting) I do the same thing on my barrel tennons. I've never had one break, that isn't my concern. I am concerned however that there may be a tendency for the joint to flex a bit at the tennon/shoulder intersection. A radius will mitigate this. Undercutting the joint as many smiths do who can't comfortably thread next to a shoulder is a horrible idea. Especially with a Remmy using a factory recoil lug as now there's nothing there for the lug to locate position.

A quote I'm quite fond of:

<span style="font-style: italic">"Remember, men will bet their lives on the work you do."</span>

Words to live by imho.

Ok enough chest beating and soap boxing, I gotta get back to work.

C.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

Are the bolt lugs harder, or the receiver lugs harder?

You have good points. But I don't know enough about some of the things involved as far as forces applied to the action and barrel to decide whether I agree or not.

How tight do you make your tenon thread fit? Mine I can wiggle the action slightly. This way the threads dont hinder the shoulders from doing their job. Do you make them tight?

Also, how tight do you tighten them on? I think I screw barrels on less tight than most people. I give the action wrench a good throw to the ground and let the weight tighten it up. After that I may give it a tap with a 4lb hammer to help set it a little more if I didnt feel the action wrench weight was enough.


Lastly, I do agree about trade offs between accuracy gain and function/practicality.
The matches I enjoy shooting in your dont need a one hole rifle. My rifle shoots half inch 90% of the time when I do my part. Thats good enough to win any match Ive gone to as long as I do my part(which I dont). So extra work bringing it from half inch to 1/4" or less is pointless. Im better off making it reliable and function flawlessly.

 

[lw8]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

My brain hurts reading this...but that is some great info.

 

[taseal]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

Over my head, but a great read.

So is rethreading worth it? Lol

 

[customshooter]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

he's an idiot...find another smith....

 

[LRI]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZPrecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are the bolt lugs harder, or the receiver lugs harder?

You have good points. But I don't know enough about some of the things involved as far as forces applied to the action and barrel to decide whether I agree or not.

How tight do you make your tenon thread fit? Mine I can wiggle the action slightly. This way the threads dont hinder the shoulders from doing their job. Do you make them tight?

Also, how tight do you tighten them on? I think I screw barrels on less tight than most people. I give the action wrench a good throw to the ground and let the weight tighten it up. After that I may give it a tap with a 4lb hammer to help set it a little more if I didnt feel the action wrench weight was enough.


Lastly, I do agree about trade offs between accuracy gain and function/practicality.
The matches I enjoy shooting in your dont need a one hole rifle. My rifle shoots half inch 90% of the time when I do my part. Thats good enough to win any match Ive gone to as long as I do my part(which I dont). So extra work bringing it from half inch to 1/4" or less is pointless. Im better off making it reliable and function flawlessly.
</div></div>


In almost every circumstance the receiver is harder than the bolt.

As for snugging up a barrel. I will share a story. When I first began in this trade I took a rather cavalier approach to attaching a barrel to an action. In 2003 I worked with the US Palma Team as an armorer. David Karcher, my best friend, was on the team that year and had a high dollar rifle built by probably the most notorious LR gun plumber in the United States. The rifle was a turd. It held minute of pie plate at 300 yards during initial testing at Raton, NM.

So he hands it to me and says "fix it" and walks away fit to be tied.

I rebarreled it and went out to shoot it. I put the barrel on "snug" and it shot a little better. Then I put the screws to it and watched that rifle suddenly go from 1.5moa elevation to less than half a minute.

Chad learned something that day.

Bench rest guys change barrels the way circle track guys change tires. They routinely hand snap a barrel and go for it. It works just fine when you have unlimited sighters and don't care if the gun holds group center. All they care about is group size. If the zero shifts from one day to the next who cares?

It's pure poison on a rifle like a tac gun, palma gun, or anything else that needs to shoot the zero from the git go. A real world SWAT officer doesn't have the luxury of going to a range to cold bore zero his rifle right before every deployment. It has to be ready to go to work the second the dispatch officer turns him loose on a call. In my professional opinion the way you encourage that is by ensuring as solid a joint as possible between the barrel and receiver. I torque barrels to 125lbs. I don't use anti-seize compound either.

My tennons don't "wiggle." Anyone who's been in my shop for the first time gets the demonstration where I grab whatever barreled action I'm working on off the shelf and ask them to inspect the tennon/receiver fit. There is zero perceivable clearance between the two parts. The threads feel silky smooth, much like a micrometer thimble.

Occasionally I'll put an indicator on the outside of the action while barreling it up in the lathe. I'll just screw the thing onto the tennon and jog the spindle at low rpm. A well made receiver typically has around .003" TIR (total indicated runout) with the receiver "loose" (meaning not touching the recoil lug/shoulder of the barrel tennon) When I suck the thing up tight it'll quite often go .0015" or less. The best I've seen to date was a Model M Nesika. It measured -.0005". The handful of Barnard actions I've done this to hovered between .001" and .0015"

Does it really mean anything? Probably not. It does suggest to me though that it IS (contrary to popular belief) quite possible to use a threaded joint to accurately locate the center position of a part. It's also encouraging as it serves to validate that I'm doing everything in my power to ensure the two parts are running tangent/concentric to one another.

Honest injun.

Back to work.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

When I say wiggle, I mean the smallest amount of wiggle that is able to be felt by hand. Its very minimal, but its there. I worry with tight threads that if theyre not perfectly true to the face, that it will cause binding and stress.

As far as barrel tightness. I feel I'm ok. The rifles I've built dont change POI. We've put several hundred rounds through a couple that I've built. They shoot better than us day in and day out. (Us being me and my buddy that shoots in matches with me.) Just his rifle and mine we have 600 rounds through. Cleaned em about 3 times each, about every 100 rounds. Theyve held POI and shoot in the .6s when we shoot well.

Im not a half inch shooter every day, like many claim on here. I feel my rifle is.


I appreciate you sharing your experience. I take what you say seriously.

 

[Insayn]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

I may have missed it or have a misunderstanding but how true are the threads to the receiver? If you indicate off the OD and square the bolt face off that are the threads typically right on after cleanup?

 

[300sniper]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZPrecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When I say wiggle, I mean the smallest amount of wiggle that is able to be felt by hand. Its very minimal, but its there. I worry with tight threads that if theyre not perfectly true to the face, that it will cause binding and stress. </div></div>

assuming you are using at least a semi-rigid machine, if you are cutting the receiver threads and receiver face in the same setup and then cutting the tenon, threads and barrel shoulder in the same setup, how could they not be true to each other?

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

The rifles(all but one) I've built so far have had the lugs and threads trued with PTGs truing kit. Then I faced the action while on a mandrel between center in the lathe.

I know some people dont trust those piloted truing kits. If you actually use one, they feel as though they do a good job. After truing the bolt, I check lug contact and its been great on every rifle.


I will be doing it the spider jig way, where all cuts can be made at once. Im not sure which I will in the end use the most, but Im confident I can build a great rifle either way.

I see myself offering different truing packages. Some including truing the scope base holes at the same time. Some single pointing everything. And some using PTGs truing kit. Some even including a new one piece PTG bolt. I'll prolly offer like 4 different packages for truing.

I feel I can build a good rifle with any method I'll offer. And this way customers can choose a method and price that suits them.

 

[LRI]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

In China when you go their to negotiate purchases of large quantity's of goods they often have a warehouse with units of descending quality on display. Take a tail light assy for an old bike for instance. The premium brand will be a near 100% exact copy of the OEM part. From there it just erodes until you see something that resembles a light only because it has a red lens and a chrome bezel.

Prices are adjusted accordingly and that's fine for the internet hoodlums who just want to move product with no concern for quality.

I would like to think that when a person decides to build accurized rifles for a living they avoid the sliding scale.

Just something to consider. One standard, one finished product.

Should I save my dull/wore out tooling and offer an "entry level" customer build using those tools and save the "good stuff" for the high end money bags type clients?

Now how far would that fly?

I'm not trying to be a dick to you. Folks have talked to me about you and said your a good guy. I trust them so I believe what they say. The bulk of clients out there will pay good money for good work. They'll even happily pay it if they have confidence in you and can depend on a reasonable delivery date.

There's no reason to cut your own sack off. If your trying to appeal to the cheap skates let me caution you. Those are the customers you don't want anyway because quite often they really cant afford the work and you'll either be chasing down money or spend your time defending yourself as your chastised for every little thing they think you did wrong.

Treat a 10 customers right and they'll tell 10 people how great you are. Cross one person and he's liable to tell a hundred how he got screwed.

Just how things work.

 

[MikeeBooshay]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

Chad,

The advice you just gave about customers is priceless. I own my own business, it's been very successful. One of the hardest lessons I ever learned, is sometimes, you have to divorce yourself from a customer. Do it with honesty, and the truth. One day, if it sinks in, they may return, as a better customer, and hopefully, a better person.

" I'm sorry sir, but our business model does not appear to be a good fit for you. You need to buy only brand new things from large Fortune 100 companies, and pay only the top price. Only then can the supplier afford the massive amount of asskissing you require. You may be able to buy better, but you can't pay more."

 

[BlackOps Tech]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZPrecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I'll prolly offer like 4 different packages for truing. </div></div>

I'm not sure I understand this model. I'm going to ask this without being condescending, but why would you consider offering differing levels of quality? (this is what Chad was referring to)

Let's say that four of your customers are at the range, and each have one of the four different truing jobs and all the rifles shoot differently, is this what you're willing to attach your name to?

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

Like I said, I believe all the ways Id use build a fine rifle. And I wouldnt offer a method I wouldnt use on my own rifle.
I will probably offer a package where I include a new PTG bolt, but keep theres. That would be one variant to the packages.
Another will include scope base hole aligning.
Both positive gains, sirs.

I wouldnt offer anything that I didnt feel did an excellent job. I see that there are more than one way to skin a cat. And I will skin the cat in whatever way my customer wants.

I will offer the same accuracy guarantee for all rifles I build.

 

[BlackOps Tech]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZPrecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Like I said, I believe all the ways Id use build a fine rifle. And I wouldnt offer a method I wouldnt use on my own rifle.
I will probably offer a package where I include a new PTG bolt, but keep theres. That would be one variant to the packages.
Another will include scope base hole aligning.
Both positive gains, sirs.

I wouldnt offer anything that I didnt feel did an excellent job. I see that there are more than one way to skin a cat. And I will skin the cat in whatever way my customer wants.

I will offer the same accuracy guarantee for all rifles I build. </div></div>

I understand what you're saying, but I've seen a lot of cats chase their tails. My advice, for what it's worth; is to become known for offering the highest level of quality possible and then stand behind it. If what you do is worth it to the customer, the rest will take care of itself....

KFC just does chicken for a reason....

 

[Hooper]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

If you cut corners and the rifle is shit, where does that leave you?

If you do your best, what else is there?

As to this:
"I do not call the preparations to the action "blue printing." That term usually includes re-cutting the threads and re-machining the locking lug area. Because of the loose tolerances in the Remington action, I consider those steps a waste of time and money"

Ask him how many of his rifes have won matches without truing up the threads and action lugs. Installing a new barrel on a half ass action job is gambling.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

I will build the best rifles I possibly can. I wont use a method I feel is lacking in any way.
Skunkworks you build amazing rifles. I plan to do the same one day.

 

[bigngreen]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Insayn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is an quote out of his brochure:

"I do not call the preparations to the action "blue printing." That term usually includes re-cutting the threads and re-machining the locking lug area. Because of the loose tolerances in the Remington action, I consider those steps a waste of time and money" </div></div>

Sounds like a guy who wants to chamber and fit barrels to custom action not re-work factory actions.

A lot of good info and advice in this thread!!!

 

[Insayn]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bigngreen</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Insayn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is an quote out of his brochure:

"I do not call the preparations to the action "blue printing." That term usually includes re-cutting the threads and re-machining the locking lug area. Because of the loose tolerances in the Remington action, I consider those steps a waste of time and money" </div></div>

Sounds like a guy who wants to chamber and fit barrels to custom action not re-work factory actions.

A lot of good info and advice in this thread!!! </div></div>

Funny you mention that. One his list of credits he lists people that won titles or set records, but says they were using rifles he built <span style="font-weight: bold">OR</span> barrelled.

 

[BlackOps Tech]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bigngreen</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Insayn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is an quote out of his brochure:

"I do not call the preparations to the action "blue printing." That term usually includes re-cutting the threads and re-machining the locking lug area. Because of the loose tolerances in the Remington action, I consider those steps a waste of time and money" </div></div>

Sounds like a guy who wants to chamber and fit barrels to custom action not re-work factory actions.

A lot of good info and advice in this thread!!! </div></div>

Just something to think about: Generally, in this industry, people will only offer what they're capable of delivering and usually charge cheaper prices when they're "learning how" on your rifle/components.

 

[Immorteq]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skunkworks</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Just something to think about: Generally, in this industry, people will only offer what they're capable of delivering and usually charge cheaper prices when they're "learning how" on your rifle/components. </div></div>

Profound words!

 

[Oddball Six]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

Extracted my question on the implications of the metal discussion above to a separate thread.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2636885&Post2636885

 

[notquiteright]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

Insayn-
If I may offer some of my experience dealing with superanal gunsmiths, cost effective ones, and DIY.

I'd hazard to say your gunsmith is a good fit for 95% of us in here. Very few here can shoot the difference between a .25 and .5 moa rifle. Very few matches are won because one guy had a .25 rifle and the other guy had a solid .5 one. Ask winners and the guys who came in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th- muffed wind calls, rough mirage on the UKD range, I KNEW I should have not pushed the make it and take it dots, and just plain trigger jerkitis. See it way too many times, but ask around and check for yourself.

Guys with HUGE amounts of experience, highly honed skills and the ability to maintain an even strain under pressure win. Unless you are shooting some camera shutter benchrest the rifle is a tool, not a magic wand. That the upper tier have super custom rifles is more a tribute to the years spent shooting, stay in anything long enough and the tendency to upgrade is undeniable.

I like the crawl, walk, run concept.

First start with a good factory rifle. Get the trigger worked on because even the superanal gunsmiths will agree THE most cost effective upgrade is a sweet trigger- tweeked or replaced. Learn to judge wind, distance and log a year's worth of dope on how temp affects the round.

In other words, become a shooter.

THEN go to that gunsmith you cited and have him rebarrel the thing. Get out there and match your mad skills against others. Dont much care what venue, but practise is like masturbation- alot more fun when done with others.

If you are still at it when that custom barrel gets hinky then buy a REAL action, barrel, stock, trigger and run with the big dawgs. Keep the rem700 for its sentimental value, like your first love you will never forget her.

Everyone climbs the hill to accuracy from different sides with their training as their guide. A machinist will lathe the shit out of it and make a sweet rifle. An old school smith might BUY a reciever thats was manufactored to be true and forgo the sow's ear routine. A stock master might saddle bed the reciever/barrel mating area and be just as happy as all that thread machining.

I have never gotten a quantifiable breakdown on what each machining step adds to the aggregate accuracy. Perhaps oneday a machinist will give us the breakdown.

I hope to develop some skills to make owning a Terry Cross rifle a need instead of a want. Until then, and until I hit a lottery I never buy tickets for, I think your gunsmith would work for me.

Good Luck

 

[Insayn]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

Thanks for the insight notquiteright. I've been shooting as a part of my job for many years now and logged a lot of rounds downrange ;D From an accurized AR15 to a AIAW and onto an OBR. I've also done a few competitions (all of which involve physical stressors prior to shooting as opposed to off a bench). I personally own a nice .308 with aftermarket barrel and am now in the parts gathering stage on building a long action .260.

The reason I asked about it is because I stumbled on this gunsmith from a friend. I have this pamphlet with what he will do and the prices seemed reasonable and he is right down the street. His processes differed from the big names on this site, which is why I posed the question. Will I notice the difference? I doubt it, but I'll have the peace of mind. As you can see, it grew and we all learned. All in all, I will still probably take it to another local gunsmith that is further away because he has done work on my .308 and his process is similar to the masses on here and their justifications make sense. I do see your point of measureable differences and whole heartedly agree.

 

[Jim See]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

Keith, I offer 2 truing services on remington 700s.
1. single point remachining of the reciever and bolt.
OR
2. skim and lap.

98% of all customer go with #1
The 2% that go with #2 are rebarreling a worn out old friend and only looking at shooting deer within 300 yards. Cost sometimes for some people justifies the means.

Ask the right questions and then recomend the right service for the customer.

I've done the tap thing early on per customers request.
I ditched that method because I believe single point is superior to it. And when the rifle leaves the shop I have no worries that the rifle will be anything less than a 1/2moa capable. All the talk about the poor remington handle placement is just another thing to fix for the customer, a ptg pre threaded handle, tig welded in proper position and the tactical knob screws right on. 2 birds killed with one stone.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

I plan to do pretty much the same.

Id guess 90%+ of my truing jobs will be single point.

However if someone wants a hunting rifle made and doesn't want to spend as much I can cater to him as well by using the PTG tap and lug abutment cutter, then face the action and true the bolt.

I honestly feel BOTH methods make a half inch rifle if the barrel work is done right. My match rifle, I used as sort of a test rifle. I simple used the PTG kit, faced the action, and trued the bolt head minus the face. It shoots half inch and probably better. Im no half inch shooter day in and day out.

Opening up scope base holes will be an option that can be added to any truing package.

And replacing their bolt with a one piece PTG will be as well.

I appreciate you sharing that info. Good to hear someone else offers more than just one package or option.

 

[Sid Post]

Re: Truing Remington 700 Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Treat a 10 customers right and they'll tell 10 people how great you are. Cross one person and he's liable to tell a hundred how he got screwed.

Just how things work.
</div></div>

Most long term successful small business owners realize this early. Those that don't generally don't last in the long run or, get their funding to keep the doors open from somewhere other then their customer base.