Trying to neck down 6.5 grendel to 6: Need help before continuing

[Winny94]

This is my first attempt at necking down a cartridge, and its not going well. Im trying to take Lapua 6.5 Grendel to 6mm Predator (6mmAR, 243LBC, 6mm Grendel - whatever you want to call it).

My setup:
Dies: Redding FL Type S for 6mmAR (w/ entire decapping rod/expander ball assembly removed)
Bushing: .268
Lube: Imperial Sizing Wax
Brass: Lapua 6.5 Grendel

The pictures can do a better explaining than I can, but there is a ridge, crimp, wave type deformation. I followed all of the directions from the guys that load for this round I thought, but obviously im missing something. The only thing ive found so far for a possible solution is adding a step bushing in the .25 cal range (maybe like a .279).

My technique is to chamfer the case mouth, lube the neck & body w/ the imperial, run the ram until it makes contact, slowly bring down, about halfway down I raise the ram, then bring down the full way (I tried 1 case w/o the stop and it didnt help)

Also, I tried setting the die to not bump the shoulder more than .0005" (my caliper rounds to the .0005). Would I be better off bumping the shoulder a full thou to ensure im getting the entire neck sized, or is my technique fine?

Thanks for any help

 

[Supersubes]

Trying to do it all in one shot with a bushing die is causing your issue. Bushings have minimal chamfer on them, so they get as close to the shoulder junction as possible under normal sizing. Breaking it up into two steps(like you suggested) will solve the issue.

 

[Steel head]

You really shouldn’t use S dies to neck down for just the reasons your seeing.

No matter how far you bump the shoulder your gonna have that ledge.

You might be able to get what you can of the neck then use the chamber and some lube to finish them but that could get iffy as well.

 

[Supersubes]

You really shouldn’t use S dies to neck down for just the reasons your seeing.

No matter how far you bump the shoulder your gonna have that ledge.

You might be able to get what you can of the neck then use the chamber and some lube to finish them but that could get iffy as well.

In theory I agree with you, in practice though, the radius at the neck shoulder junction in the chamber usually accommodates the resulting extra diameter on the case neck/shoulder just fine.

I necked 100 Lapua 221fb cases to .20 cal this morning, in two steps. Cases are GO -.002 headspace length to start, and my chamber is exactly at GO. I don’t bump the shoulders at all, and the .002 headspace is still there when I’m done.

I wouldn’t however recommend doing any work in the chamber.

 

[Steel head]

In theory I agree with you, in practice though, the radius at the neck shoulder junction in the chamber usually accommodates the resulting extra diameter on the case neck/shoulder just fine.

I necked 100 Lapua 221fb cases to .20 cal this morning, in two steps. Cases are GO -.002 headspace length to start, and my chamber is exactly at GO. I don’t bump the shoulders at all, and the .002 headspace is still there when I’m done.

I wouldn’t however recommend doing any work in the chamber.

The finishing in chamber I agree is iffy.
If op can get it sized down enough to almost chamber it should behave like a false shoulder with a bit extra shoulder bump.

 

[spife7980]

My technique is to chamfer the case mouth, lube the neck & body w/ the imperial, run the ram until it makes contact, slowly bring down, about halfway down I raise the ram, then bring down the full way (I tried 1 case w/o the stop and it didnt help)

Just to confirm, the one that you did without stopping halfway through also had the weird ridge in the middle of the neck? Or just down at the base of the neck?

Bushings wont size all the way to the base like has been discussed already. I find it weird that they would do that to the middle of the neck though.

 

[Steel head]

Just to confirm, the one that you did without stopping halfway through also had the weird ridge in the middle of the neck? Or just down at the base of the neck?

Bushings wont size all the way to the base like has been discussed already. I find it weird that they would do that to the middle of the neck though.

I think it’s because of sizing the neck more than bushing dies generally like to.

 

[Winny94]

Just to confirm, the one that you did without stopping halfway through also had the weird ridge in the middle of the neck? Or just down at the base of the neck?

Bushings wont size all the way to the base like has been discussed already. I find it weird that they would do that to the middle of the neck though.

theyre all the same - the lighting may be playing tricks. stopping halfway did nothing different than a full stroke.

i am going to pick up a .279 bushing and a step in between

 

[ZiaHunter]

I always use a standard FL sizing die when necking down cases since using a bushing die can be problematic at best. Necking down will also increase the neck wall thickness which can cause issues in tight necked chambers and the necks may require turning.

 

[Bradu]

Neck down in .010-.012" increments when using bushings. I prefer to put a slight chamfer on the brass as well to help get it started. I necked down from 30 caliber to 7mm in 3 steps. It's time consuming but isn't that bad.

 

[ohnomrbillk]

Redding seat dies are usually chamber dimensions.

You can take it apart and use as step 1.

Then use your size die as step 2.

 

[SupressYourself]

@Winny94 Curious as to what brand and coating type bushing you're using. I'm going to be doing this soon myself for a 243LBC, and a lot of the reading I've done suggests that just running it through a .269 bushing is all that's needed. I'm guessing you read a lot of the same stuff.

 

[Winny94]

@Winny94 Curious as to what brand and coating type bushing you're using. I'm going to be doing this soon myself for a 243LBC, and a lot of the reading I've done suggests that just running it through a .269 bushing is all that's needed. I'm guessing you read a lot of the same stuff.

The bushing I tried was a TiN coated redding .268. I should have a .279 in hand today (actually may try a .281, .274, then .268 first to see if my issue was too big of a jump. Figure if I can borrow those bushings, it doesnt hurt to take 3 steps to ensure thats the issue). The other bushings im going to try are stainless. I have heard reports some Redding TiN bushings have been measuring close to .001 smaller than the printed size, so maybe that contributed to my issue.

But yea, again I reread several write ups from Greg at BHW, Harrison at ARP, and Robert Whitley himself saying its a 1 step process (Robert looked to be using a non-bushing die, so that isn't apple to apples, but the other 2 are).

 

[MarinePMI]

Redding seat dies are usually chamber dimensions.

You can take it apart and use as step 1.

Then use your size die as step 2.

This. Seating dies are the basis for the form dies (which is really the "proper" way to form a case without any hassle). If you have a 6mmPredator seating die, use that as a form die, and then FL resize with the bushing die to bring everything into final dimensions. As stated, case necks may get thick or form a doughnut when necking down (not familiar with the 6mm Predator enough to know whether it takes that additional thickness into account with the chamber dimensions).

 

[Pvt.Donut]

Typically, you only want to neck up or down one caliber at a time. A cheap full length non-bushing die for the final forming would help. What you might run into with the bushings is that they don't quite size the full shoulder back and chambering will be difficult. Feel free to give the shoulder a healthy setback to try and offset that. Otherwise you could oversize and straighten the necks with a mandrel.

 

[Winny94]

For anyone following along, I tried again with an intermediate bushing (actually I borrowed 2 just to be safe - .281, .274, .268). Went much better. No discernable false shoulder, and smooth walls. Also removed the expander ball and did a final mandrel .002 under diameter. Getting cleaned right now, then I'll try to chamber.

 

[spife7980]

And just to make sure, they chamber right?

 

[Winny94]

And just to make sure, they chamber right?

They do. Pretty buttery actually.

 

[SupressYourself]

@Winny94 Looks like you did a 3-step. Did you try a 2-step at all? I'm thinking of trying .281 then .269 if I ever get my barrel.
A little off-topic, but I'm also curious how your load development has been going, if you don't mind sharing.

 

[Winny94]

@Winny94 Looks like you did a 3-step. Did you try a 2-step at all? I'm thinking of trying .281 then .269 if I ever get my barrel.
A little off-topic, but I'm also curious how your load development has been going, if you don't mind sharing.

I did not. I had an evening with nothing to do, so the extra 30 mins to add a step didnt bother me.
I havent gotten far yet, I ran into very early pressure signs my first trip out due to the Lapua brass being very short (it grows .0125" at the shoulder after fireforming), so im fireforming now with a mild load. Accuracy potential is huge, my first 3 shots were right at 1/2". I fired another 15 rounds and that group group ended up around 1.5" and the bulk of that was about .75-.85". That load was 26.0 gr of H4895 with the bullet jammed .008".
That was with 107 SMKs, but I plan to use the 95 smks when I get it all formed.

 

[SupressYourself]

Thanks. I don't mind a third step so much. It's the $27 per bushing that makes me hope I can get it done in 2.

 

[Winny94]

Thanks. I don't mind a third step so much. It's the $27 per bushing that makes me hope I can get it done in 2.

ah yea. I borrowed, so that wasnt an issue, but they are spendy. If it helps, I used the stainless bushings w/ imperial wax, and ran into no issues. Stainless are a bit cheaper. Having said that, I havent found anyone who had issues doing it in 2 steps.

 

[Yondering]

I followed all of the directions from the guys that load for this round I thought, but obviously im missing something.

IIRC, when you asked this question the first time you were told that bushing dies didn't work well for necking down and that you should get a regular FL die, so you didn't really follow the directions given. That advice is still true. Even a cheap Lee 6 PPC die will do the trick in one step; you certainly don't need multiple steps to neck down from 6.5 to 6mm.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Redding seat dies are usually chamber dimensions.

You can take it apart and use as step 1.

Then use your size die as step 2.

^^^
This is what I would have recommended.
I also use the seating die as an intermediate step.

 

[Winny94]

IIRC, when you asked this question the first time you were told that bushing dies didn't work well for necking down and that you should get a regular FL die, so you didn't really follow the directions given. That advice is still true. Even a cheap Lee 6 PPC die will do the trick in one step; you certainly don't need multiple steps to neck down from 6.5 to 6mm.

thats because no one ive talked that actually reloads for this round does that - including the developers of the reamers. And obviously I do need multiple steps with my brass since doing it all once didnt work, but adding an intermediate did work....
Having said that, if i can find a deal on a 6ppc die, im not opposed to trying it

 

[BearNaked]

I neck down 308 to 260 in one step using a standard FL die. I do have to turn the necks afterwards but it does work. I have never heard of the seating die as a way to neck down a cartridge. I will have to give that a try and see if it works better.

 

[MarinePMI]

From 308 to 260, it's best to go 308=> 7mm-08 => .260 FL (at least that is what worked for me). Ended up chopping the 7mm-08 die a couple ten thousandths to allow forming .308 to 6.5CM (back when it was relatively new and cases were made of unobtainium). A shoulder bump die ended up being the ticket (since the body angle is different between the two).

 

[BearNaked]

I have heard that but I haven't had an issue doing about 400 rounds this way. I anneal, use small base die since these are MG brass, resize, turn, resize again, anneal, then load.

 

[Yondering]

thats because no one ive talked that actually reloads for this round does that - including the developers of the reamers. And obviously I do need multiple steps with my brass since doing it all once didnt work, but adding an intermediate did work....
Having said that, if i can find a deal on a 6ppc die, im not opposed to trying it

Where did you get that idea? Several of the people in that previous thread, myself included, said we neck our cases down with FL sizing dies in one step. You may have chosen to ignore that advice, but don't pretend none of the rest of us do it. You do not need multiple steps with a FL non-bushing sizing die, it works perfectly in one pass. A bushing die is different and does not work as well, as we told you before, which is why you've needed multiple steps.

This is a classic example where more work does not produce better results.

 

[Winny94]

Where did you get that idea? Several of the people in that previous thread, myself included, said we neck our cases down with FL sizing dies in one step. You may have chosen to ignore that advice, but don't pretend none of the rest of us do it. You do not need multiple steps with a FL non-bushing sizing die, it works perfectly in one pass. A bushing die is different and does not work as well, as we told you before, which is why you've needed multiple steps.

This is a classic example where more work does not produce better results.

To be 100% honest, and no offense intended, I put more merit into what Harrison recommended (the owner of ARP and the 6mm Predator) vs what was said on a forum from people I don't know - I was more looking for tips, not a completely different process from what I was originally told.
Again, it ended up working fine, but it was a pain, so I'm open to trying the ppc sizer idea.

My question with the PPC die since it's not dimensionally the same, could I potentially run into brass that would then be partially full length sized? Would I just run it through my bushing die with the internals removed (ie as a body die)?


What doesn't make sense is why, if that way is easier, why isn't it the recommended process from Whitley and Harrison?

 

[Cascade Hemi]

I've necked down using a standard die and by stepping down with a busing die. If I had a bushing die in hand I'd do as the OP did and use an intermediate size bushing. Given that 6mm Grendel FL sizing dies are rare, the bushing die is the route I'd go. If you're just necking up or down a variation of 308 I'd buy a new die.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

Not Grendel, but I've necked down several hundred rounds of 6.5 Creedmoor to 6mm Creedmoor in one step using a non-bushing full length sizing die with no issues at all. No doughnut at all on any of the cases, and I was lucky and did not need to neck turn.

After having had good luck with that method all of the talk of multiple steps for going down one caliber, using bushings when they have a reputation for causing problems when necking cases down, etc. seems like a bit of a rube-goldberg way of going about something that should be fairly simple.

 

[Yondering]

To be 100% honest, and no offense intended, I put more merit into what Harrison recommended (the owner of ARP and the 6mm Predator) vs what was said on a forum from people I don't know - I was more looking for tips, not a completely different process from what I was originally told.
Again, it ended up working fine, but it was a pain, so I'm open to trying the ppc sizer idea.

My question with the PPC die since it's not dimensionally the same, could I potentially run into brass that would then be partially full length sized? Would I just run it through my bushing die with the internals removed (ie as a body die)?


What doesn't make sense is why, if that way is easier, why isn't it the recommended process from Whitley and Harrison?

The 6PPC is about .070" shorter at the shoulder than the Grendel case, so you have to keep the die up off the shellholder enough to size correctly. Learn about adjusting your dies for proper shoulder bump if you don't already know, that's important to understand for any wildcatting. You can, and I do, use 6PPC dies exclusively for loading these 6mm Grendel wildcats; the .070" makes no difference at the base of the case in my experience (243 LBC) and the standard FL die does everything I need it to do.

Those 6mm PPC dies are not exactly "rare"; most of the die manufacturers make them. There sure is a lot of misinformation and half-truths floating around about this stuff lately.

It's pretty common knowledge among most wildcatters that bushing dies are a poor choice for necking cases down. That's not specific to the 6mm Grendel wildcats by any stretch. The fact that you're having trouble necking down only 0.5mm should be a clue that there's a better way...

I do not know or care what Harrison says about this stuff or why. Good for you if you choose to believe him instead of other people; not my problem, but it's obviously not working out well for you so far. Best of luck to you, sounds like you're going to need it.

 

[Winny94]

The 6PPC is about .070" shorter at the shoulder than the Grendel case, so you have to keep the die up off the shellholder enough to size correctly. Learn about adjusting your dies for proper shoulder bump if you don't already know, that's important to understand for any wildcatting. You can, and I do, use 6PPC dies exclusively for loading these 6mm Grendel wildcats; the .070" makes no difference at the base of the case in my experience (243 LBC) and the standard FL die does everything I need it to do.

Those 6mm PPC dies are not exactly "rare"; most of the die manufacturers make them. There sure is a lot of misinformation and half-truths floating around about this stuff lately.

It's pretty common knowledge among most wildcatters that bushing dies are a poor choice for necking cases down. That's not specific to the 6mm Grendel wildcats by any stretch. The fact that you're having trouble necking down only 0.5mm should be a clue that there's a better way...

I do not know or care what Harrison says about this stuff or why. Good for you if you choose to believe him instead of other people; not my problem, but it's obviously not working out well for you so far. Best of luck to you, sounds like you're going to need it.

I dont understand your hostility. My process worked out just fine, just took an extra hour, which over the life of the brass is nothing. I already said im open to trying the PPC die, and I also never insinuated they are rare - no idea how you gleaned that one. Just an FYI, the first 3 rounds I fired were under 1/2" @ 100, so despite your opinion, it does seem to be working out well for me so far.

 

[SupressYourself]

I'm not getting the hostility either... In my readings, I also found plenty of people that used bushing dies with success.
In the near future, I'm going to try to make this work with bushings too. Why? because I already have a 6.5 Grendel bushing die, and I already have a .269 bushing that I use with my 6 Creed. If I can buy a single bushing and make it work in 2 steps, I'm going to do that, even though it may not be the "best" way.

 

[Yondering]

I dont understand your hostility. My process worked out just fine, just took an extra hour, which over the life of the brass is nothing. I already said im open to trying the PPC die, and I also never insinuated they are rare - no idea how you gleaned that one. Just an FYI, the first 3 rounds I fired were under 1/2" @ 100, so despite your opinion, it does seem to be working out well for me so far.

I'm being blunt, because the friendly helpful comments you received from other people were pretty much ignored and you're back asking for help with the same thing again. If I was being hostile, I wouldn't be trying to help.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

I'm being blunt, because the friendly helpful comments you received from other people were pretty much ignored and you're back asking for help with the same thing again. If I was being hostile, I wouldn't be trying to help.

It's worth pointing out that, again, there is more than one way to neck down a cartridge. Given the circumstances I would say your advice weighs in below the route the OP took. Based on the outcome, buying similar but different cartridge dies to do the necking down process is not warranted and frankly not recommended by the majority of the 6mm Grendel crowd.

 

[Bradu]

Bushings work fine and I would rather spend a little more time loading then buying another die.