Advanced Marksmanship Unexplained fliers

[Mr Flannel]

Am currently scratching my head over an issue I'm having with an F/TR rifle in 223 rem, which I shoot off a bipod.

The rifle shoots like an absolute hammer with 80gr Nosler HPBT over a stiff load of varget and a CCI small mag primer. Brass is Lapua and I tend to neck size only for this rifle, using a Lee Collet die.

Trouble is, the rifle will throw a WTF!!! flier. For example, during a 10rd application at 300yds today, with virtually no wind, 9 went into the x-ring (0.5moa) and 1 (about the 6th shot) departs from the program and ends up about 2.5moa out of the group at 2 o'clock. Next group, same thing - but the flier was lost out at 4 o'clock.

I admit it could be me, not retaining good NPOA or 'driving' the rifle too much but the fliers both 'felt' right, with clean break and good follow-through. I'm thinking perhaps the ammunition - maybe a neck tension or run-out problem. I really hope it's not the barrel, which was dirty - but not noticeably so (it's a NZ true-flite 8" twist finished at 30")

Welcome any views or advice.

Cheers

 

[USFTR]

Re: Unexplained fliers

My first thought, assuming the shooter was not the issue, was neck tension. How did they feel when you loaded them with respect to neck tension? I can sometimes feel differences when loading and it will show at the range.

 

[Mr Flannel]

Re: Unexplained fliers

To be honest, they felt pretty uniform - no noticeable deviations but it's hard to tell with a forster co-ax press, which has plenty of load leverage. They've been fired about 3-4 times now and with hot loads, I'm sure they'd be getting work hardened quickly.

I might try an inline die with an arbor press, which is more sensitive.

The case necks are squeaky clean. I use the stainless steel media cleaning method talked about here:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1880781&page=1

I'm pretty sure this isn't a factor - in fact, the seating feel is more consistent since I started using it.

The fliers have been an issue since day 1.

What do you think about shooting a few groups off a rest to reduce the shooter influence? Might be easier to diagnose. If it lessens, it's probably me, if not, there's another problem...

 

[USFTR]

Re: Unexplained fliers

I actually shoot worse off a bench! It's interesting you use the stainless media. So you saw this issue BEFORE you started using it??

Then I guess the possible neck tension could be due to work hardening based on your comments. Maybe time to try annealing the necks?

 

[Afghanvet09]

Re: Unexplained fliers

Same experience with AR's and I get the usual answers on the board. I been shooting AR's for some time and this phenomena is repeated in stories over and over again by experienced marksman. For the blame the shooter crowd, the shooters themselves don't report this same recurring phenomena when they are shooting their bolt gun. There is something at work here, not sure what it is but my suspicions are the AR bolt itself and rifle design is the inherent reason. I would love to see mechanically internally what is going on when these out of nowhere rounds occur. Overall though I would say a gas gun requires more skill to shoot consistantly good vs. a bolt gun IMHE.

 

[Mr Flannel]

Re: Unexplained fliers

Yes, issue was noted before I started using the stainless media. Neck tension may be the culprit, although with lateral movement of the fliers - not just vertical, I wonder what else is going on - could be combined with a runout issue.

I've got an annealing machine on order. Might try some new brass in the meantime and see what happens.

Fliers are insidious, they crawl inside your head and go to work. "Is it me, wind, neck tension, runout, crown, etc."

 

[Mr Flannel]

Re: Unexplained fliers

yes - gas guns do require a better skill quotient to shoot consistently, given the mechanical disadvantage to accuracy brought about by looser tolerances and working parts movement.

Always had good results with M262 though - never saw a flier.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Unexplained fliers

OP,

You could have a multitude of problems. Only by calling your shots will you be able to trouble shoot with any hope for finding the source/s of error. If you're calling shots right-in-there and you get a flier there's a good chance you did not counter wind. Shots on call yet not right-in-there suggests trigger control, or position consistency issues, like stockweld, or NPA, maybe, parallax too. Ammunition issues would only manifest themselves at the distance you're shooting with ES over 50 fps and then still not likely as horitontal dispersion.

 

[Mr Flannel]

Re: Unexplained fliers

I'm the first to admit it could be me - the fliers are most often lost out at a high 2 or low 4 o'clock position - which could indicate any number of shooter issues. However, the lost shots yesterday were both called as in, with no substantive change in wind - or certainly not enough to cause a +2moa variation. Which is why I'm scratching my head now.

I'll work on eliminating any variables in the ammunition and work harder on the fundamentals.

 

[TimK]

Re: Unexplained fliers

I get the same silly stuff happening to me, and I'm convinced it's shooter induced. Just yesterday I shot 5 groups. The first of the day was pretty stinky at 2" at 200 yards. The last group was 3/4" with one miserable flier 1" left. Each group was progressively smaller than the previous one and I called every shot "in".

Admittedly, I was working on small position changes with the various groups doing some experimenting, so that may have contributed to the variability. My point is this: I thought each shot broke perfectly, though the shots in the best groups "felt" better. Whatever is going on to cause the variability is beyond my current ability to identify. Something is changing, and I have no idea what it is.

For myself, I resigned myself to quit worrying about the fliers and just concentrate on shooting as much as I can. I'm going on the assumption that training and practice will eventually reduce or eliminate the fliers.

 

[Mr Flannel]

Re: Unexplained fliers

Sure thing - all understood. I'll be doing as much shooting as I can get away with also. Plenty of work to be done on the fundamentals.

I won't be working with the batch of 80gr A-Max projectiles I have any longer though. As it turns out, a bunch of guys down here have had the same experience with fliers - and it may be down to either the projectile, or a bad lot of projectiles (potentially 2008 manufacture). The Nosler 80gr works very consistently out of my rifle, so I'll be switching back to those and then have no-one to blame but myself..

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Unexplained fliers

Neck tension affects velocity as it has a direct impact on pressure.

Take a look at a drop table for your bullet and see what difference in velocity it would take to create a 2.5 MOA difference in POI over your mode velocity.

I seriously doubt neck tension has anything to do with it, but hey if you want a new toy for the loading room go for it.

Let someone else shoot the rifle and see what the results are.

In the last 8 years I've been around thousands upon thousands of 223 projectiles going down range at 200, 300, and 600 yards. The only failures I've seen when bullets were used within their intended velocity windows, twist rates, etc. came from Hornady bullets.

Here is a question for you - do you mag feed them or single load them? Also, how careful are you when operating the rifle? Any damage at all to that red plastic tip will show up on the target.

I like the performance of the 75 AMAX at 600 yards, but the way I operate an AR-15 I end up damaging about 20% of the tips. A uniformly flattened tip comes up about 2.5 minutes low at 600 yards from my experience.

Good luck with your quest to get it sorted out.

 

[cavscout1983]

Re: Unexplained fliers

_9H, Maybe he got a muzzle brake made in Colorado Springs.

No one believed me...haha

 

[Mr Flannel]

Re: Unexplained fliers

I'm not so convinced that it's neck tension anymore - it's me and/or the projectiles.

I single load the rifle (it's a bolt, single shot) and it's fair to say I'm pretty careful about it. I've seen what happens to tip-damaged A-Max bullets and it ain't pretty...

I e-mailed Hornady to ask for some guidance on whether there were reported issues with the lot I'm using, or in general and how best to run these bullets. Nothing heard, so far.

 

[GRIM]

Re: Unexplained fliers

At which shot is the flyer occuring? First shot, last shot or somwhere in between? Did the flyer occur at the same shot # sequence for both targets? Are you getting tired at the end of the string and changing something in your position? Shoot a shorter string (half as many as you normally do) then take a break. Come back to it when you are ready & rested. Are you leaning on the rifle more at the end of the string? Is your breathing getting enough O2 into your bloodstream to keep you the same from shot to shot? I find I have to force myself to take a couple of large breaths to get a lot of O2 into me before settling down for the last couple of heart beats before the shot - more towards the end of the string than at the beginning.

Let someone else shoot your rifle (if you don't mind someone else fondling it) and see what happens to them. I let a Olympic caliber shooter run one of my rigs and he printed a group at 200 yds that I usually do at 100 yds. He's got mad skills.

 

[Mr Flannel]

Re: Unexplained fliers

Hey Grim

Happens at different points in the string, but most often noted towards the back end. As previously stated, some of it may be pilot error. I got another guy to shoot the rifle last Sat and he had three fliers in fifteen rounds, one of which was a called error (and therefore not a flier). There was only 1moa of change in the wind during that string, so the fliers were exactly that. The platform is quite stable (f-class bipod and heavy rear bag)so a minimum of gun handling is required, so shooter influence should be less of the equation.

On neck tension, I clean my cases using the stainless steel media method (check out the reloading forum) and it gets those cases squeaky clean inside and out. I use graphite powder to lube the inside of the necks prior to bullet seating and the seating force required seems pretty uniform, particularly since I started cleaning the cases this way. The collet die I use puts about .001" to .002" of tension on the necks and my TIR for loaded rounds at the bearing surface is about .002", which is good enough. TIR at neck hovers at around .001", so case prep doesn't seem to be an issue.

 

[GRIM]

Re: Unexplained fliers

It looks like your quality control is just fine. I'd then lean towards a crown issue. Frank White at Compass Lake Engineering had the very same problem one time with his son's rifle. Would do the very same thing as yours. He looked at it under a magnified lens and couldn't see anything wrong with it but still went ahead and re-crowned it. That fixed his problem. I'd like to hear if you get this fixed as all of us at one time or another run into this issue or have friends that do and it's always different what the cause is...

FYI - I'm also convinced that every now and then you just get an out of spec bullet. I've got a friend with a Junke ICC bullet spinner - he says you'd be amazed how few perfect bullets are in a box of factory bullets. Said it tightened his groups up at 1000 yds after he started checking his bullets.

 

[Mr Flannel]

Re: Unexplained fliers

I've thought about the crown issue and have looked at it through my borescope (great bit of kit) but haven't been able to see any nicks/burrs/scratches, etc, either on the edge or just inside the crown. I'll get my gunsmith to look at it and get a second opinion.

Given the imperfections in the A-Max projectiles I've had - in weight and length variations, I wouldn't be that surprised

A couple of guys have stated they could see some out of the same lot were visibly out of true simply by rolling them along a piece of glass and seeing the noses wobble. If true, that's rotten QC.

I don't know about you but I don't have the time or patience to meticulously batch bullets for weight, length and runout. If they're advertised as match bullets, then I pretty much expect them to be on the money, bar the odd 'poison pill'. I don't expect that anyone should need to go to that length - it adds up to an inordinate amount of time at the reloading bench and not enough time busting caps.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Unexplained fliers

Too bad you are not in the US or I'd send ya some 80 smks to play with.

If you really suspect the bullet, do a direct replacement of the Hornady with the 80 smk and change nothing else for now. It is a very forgiving projectile. Jump it about .020". Go back out and do your shooting tests with you driving it as well as a competent friend.

Let us know the results.

 

[Mr Flannel]

Re: Unexplained fliers

We can get the 80 SMK here, although it is twice as expensive as the Nosler HPBT equivalent (price gouging by the importer). I think the reason why people have tried to persist with the A-Max is that the BC (G1) is around 25 points higher than the 80 SMK and is the only bullet which can compete BC-wise with some of the .308 155gr bullets, like the Dyer HBC, which is an Aussie made 155gr VLD with a G1 of about .462 (and which kills us little fellows at 800yds and beyond) In F T/R shooting down here we are restricted to three bullets for .223, the 80 Nosler HPBT, 80 SMK and 80 A-Max amd for 308, the Sierra 155 MK, the Nosler 155 HPBT, the Hornady 155 A-Max (which virtually no-one shoots) and the previously mentioned Dyer HBC.

I'll use the Noslers this weekend and let you know how I get on. Another guy will shoot the rifle during the same outing, for comparison.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Unexplained fliers

See if you can get one of these on the way. It will bridge the perceived gap to the AMAX with the Nosler or Sierra.

http://www.whiddengunworks.net/pointingdie.html

 

[Mr Flannel]

Re: Unexplained fliers

LOL...I've actually got one not that long ago to try out. I'll have to get it into action and see what results it produces. Do you use one?

 

[Mr Flannel]

Re: Unexplained fliers

Well, things seem to be on the improve. Here's a crappy phone pic of a ten round group I shot today at 500yds - we use Kongsberg electonic target systems, so it's a view of the screen. I switched from A-Max to Nosler 80gr HPBT over 25.8gr Varget and CCI small mag primer. For reference, the innermost ring is just under 1/2moa, so my vertical is ~3/4moa. The loner out on the right is pilot error - got caught in a wind pickup

Would have cleaned it otherwise... Wind was 3-4moa from 7-10

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Unexplained fliers

The 4 shots at 10 o'clock look like shooter/consistent recoil control to me. Glad the "flier" is gone with the switch from the AMAX.

 

[Mr Flannel]

Re: Unexplained fliers

Yep, could well be recoil control. I am a bit iffy in that dept from time to time.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Re: Unexplained fliers

Do you verify your groups with a paper target too? When I worked for an ammunition company, we purchased the same targeting system and had tons of problems with it. Paper targets and the pc view rarely matched perfectly. Kept it for a few months, worked with the manufacturer and eventually returned it for a refund.
If you are having fliers that are mostly horizontal, use some wind flags to see if you are being affected by the wind. A video camera showing flag position at the shot will tell you a lot.

 

[Mr Flannel]

Re: Unexplained fliers

No, we've had pretty good luck with the Kongsberg system. We've had them for a while and some of the initial glitches have been worked out over time.

We don't overlay paper targets on the kberg faces but I've shot on paper targets plenty often. There's no comparative issue I've been able to identify.

 

[bigdawgcje]

Re: Unexplained fliers

I have used the Whidden Bullet Pointing System and their Meplat tool. Made an improvevment on SMKs and Nosler CCs. Worked for me.....9H is right.

 

[Mr Flannel]

Re: Unexplained fliers

I've been using the Whidden system lately on the Nosler CCs and it gives me about 1moa of elevation at the long ranges (800, 900, 1000). Can't really see any change closer in than that, or it's too incremental for me to notice.

Shot at 1,000 today and got absolutely smashed in my first application. Rapidly switching wind changes were 6-8moa and almost impossible to cope with. Disheartening.

The 223 with the 80gr on offer are at a severe disadvantage to the high BC 308 155gr we compete against, at the longs...

 

[marduk185]

Re: Unexplained fliers

you missed...fliers explained next question?
also i noticed noone mentioned the coriolis effect here.