Night Vision Upgrade from pvs-22 to pvs-30, worth it?

[niteshooter]

I’m thinking maybe I should snag a pvs30 refurb while I can at half price of new before they are gone.
Already have a pvs22 purchased a couple years ago and the size and weight are great. But It gets fuzzy quick adding magnification with Nightforce 3.5-15x50. Seldom go over 6 power. 8 tops shooting hogs out to 300 yards. Farther out I want more mag but the image is grainy and harder to aim. Full moon or Torch Pro II helps but to date farthest I’ve taken it on 15 inch steel targets is 500 yards at 15 power but it wasn’t to great in my opinion.
9 power was still good at that distance just would like more and a better image.

I’ve wanted to try a pvs-27 just to have the best available but I’ll never be that rich again most likely.
Would the pvs-30 be a big gain over the -22 and close enough to the -27 to not worry about max mag. and range. I’d like to have an honest good image up to 15x if that’s possible.
On some of the bigger fields one can glass well past half a mile. 1 mile and further in some places so spending more for capability is not money wasted per say.

The refurbs seem like to good of a deal to pass up even though I have a clip on already and could use a pvs-14 helmet mount. But I could snag those anytime anywhere. Just thinking maybe I should get a refurb while the gettin’s good. Never hurts to have a back up unit.
So if anybody wants to jump into my shoes and offer their opinion let’s hear it.

 

[wigwamitus]

The 30 will certainly give you more magnification ... depending our your "fuzzy" tolerance ... 12x for sure ... maybe 16x ... I cranked up to 18x but that was too fuzzy even for me ...
Tube quality is a crap shoot, so expect to have less resolution than you do now (expect less, be surprised if you get similar). But I can certainly shoot my 12 inch steel at 500yds with L&S 3-18x T3.
My 30 weights 3 lbs 14 oz ... so it is a tank sitting up there on the front.

 

[niteshooter]

Thanks, I didn’t consider the serviceability aspect. Would suck if it’s past warranty and needs work and they won’t fix it.
I just messaged FLIR about mine on that same aspect.
I just saw that Ultimate Night Vision in Fort Worth has 1 pvs30 that they rent out for $250 a weekend. So there’s that option for comparison. I’ll most likely end up going that route when I get a free weekend to do a side by side comparison to see for myself.

An expensive way to satisfy curiosity.
Some answers just don’t come cheap.

 

[wigwamitus]

But again, a given unit will have a different tube. If you like the one you rent, I think you can keep it (if you buy it).

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Who makes your 22? Depending on which one it is and what tube it has will depend on how much of an upgrade a 30 is, but a 30 will atleast be somewhat of an upgrade regardless.

 

[niteshooter]

But again, a given unit will have a different tube. If you like the one you rent, I think you can keep it (if you buy it).

I didn't mean to say a unit would not be repaired out of warranty. But I would expect out of warranty repairs to cost $$.

Well I finished napping in between graveyard shifts so I can resume this.

Yes I believe I read the rental units can be purchased. Which could be a good option if the tube is outstanding. I remember the other thread talking about the FOM# and understand the slight difference in tubes given a number of units which has always seemed to be par for the course within classes of I2 equipment.

Being a Sunday, not the best day to just call a company and get answers direct about serviceability/repair down the road.

From a business perspective i wouldn’t expect KAC to eat the cost of repairing out of warranty lower priced units. Bet getting a ballpark figure on the cost of a tube replacement or other items could be good info moving forward. All answers I may seek at another time.

 

[niteshooter]

Who makes your 22? Depending on which one it is and what tube it has will depend on how much of an upgrade a 30 is, but a 30 will atleast be somewhat of an upgrade regardless.

I ordered it from TNVC who got it direct from FLIR IIRC. Had to wait a few weeks for it to be built at the factory as they are assembled as ordered due to the cost of new or were at that time.
I’d have to dig out the literature on mine to find the specs. That’s not an option at this very moment.
The housing doesn’t state FOM like the pvs30 reviews I YouTubed.
It’s not a bad tube. Better than any d-series standard film dedicated scope I’ve messed with. As good if not better due to pinnacle and adjustable gain than the pvs-12 6x I used beside it one night last fall.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I ordered it from TNVC who got it direct from FLIR IIRC. Had to wait a few weeks for it to be built at the factory as they are assembled as ordered due to the cost of new or were at that time.
I’d have to dig out the literature on mine to find the specs. That’s not an option at this very moment.
The housing doesn’t state FOM like the pvs30 reviews I YouTubed.
It’s not a bad tube. Better than any d-series standard film dedicated scope I’ve messed with. As good if not better due to pinnacle and adjustable gain than the pvs-12 6x I used beside it one night last fall.View attachment 6885315

I'm sure that thing has a great tube in it if it's FLIR, I doubt you're going to see much if anything going to a PVS-30.

I'd first try running it in front of a day optic with higher resolution and also possibly a brighter illuminator.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

All 30’s have pinnacle tubes in them. I’ve seen and used at least a dozen from this program and they’ve all been excellent in terms of tube quality and resolution no matter the fom.

That said I don’t believe the 30 is going to be a dramatic leap above your 22 and the 27 isn’t either. There are some gains from lens size/light gathering but it’s not huge.

I’m not sure why people feel the need to shoot at high mag in the dark with clip ons. It’s just not necessary. 6-10x is plenty even to 1k. Dark is an entirely different animal then daylight shooting. Almost anyone I put behind a night optic shoots better then they do in daylight in terms of groups and good wind calls etc. you focus on fundamentals and a solid cm hold rather then seeing your impact on steel and trying to force correct etc.

All clip ons do about the same thing when you start stacking on magnification and reducing the exit pupil so keep the mag in a the happy window and shoot

 

[Killswitch Engage]

I ordered it from TNVC who got it direct from FLIR IIRC. Had to wait a few weeks for it to be built at the factory as they are assembled as ordered due to the cost of new or were at that time.
I’d have to dig out the literature on mine to find the specs. That’s not an option at this very moment.
The housing doesn’t state FOM like the pvs30 reviews I YouTubed.
It’s not a bad tube. Better than any d-series standard film dedicated scope I’ve messed with. As good if not better due to pinnacle and adjustable gain than the pvs-12 6x I used beside it one night last fall.View attachment 6885315

The fom isn’t listed because your clip on would have come with a spec sheet listing snr and lp/mm. That is the fom

 

[Rudy Gonsior]

All 30’s have pinnacle tubes in them. I’ve seen and used at least a dozen from this program and they’ve all been excellent in terms of tube quality and resolution no matter the fom.

That said I don’t believe the 30 is going to be a dramatic leap above your 22 and the 27 isn’t either. There are some gains from lens size/light gathering but it’s not huge.

I’m not sure why people feel the need to shoot at high mag in the dark with clip ons. It’s just not necessary. 6-10x is plenty even to 1k. Dark is an entirely different animal then daylight shooting. Almost anyone I put behind a night optic shoots better then they do in daylight in terms of groups and good wind calls etc. you focus on fundamentals and a solid cm hold rather then seeing your impact on steel and trying to force correct etc.

All clip ons do about the same thing when you start stacking on magnification and reducing the exit pupil so keep the mag in a the happy window and shoot

Killswitch is on the ball here, while there are some nice gains with the 27s and 30s, the PVS22s aren't to bad, I've shot them out to 1300m on steel with first and second round hits using a 10x (typically the upper limit of a 22). A 30 is going to provide you with an upper end of 12-15x before getting all grainy. The two things I'd honestly consider up grading first isyour illuminator and then switch to a FFP optic. I think dollar for dollar those two things will to maximize your capabilities more that a 30 will.

Adding on to what Killswitch was saying about shooters getting super focused on good fundamentals while shooting at night, here are pics of two groups I shoot a couple years back while confirming night shifts with our PVS30s during a trip to Nepal. These are 2 different, 5 round groups from 2 different M110s, shot in less then a minute apart. And people say shooting in the dark is hard, lol! Different yes but I actually much prefer it over the day. The night-time is the right-time!

 

[wigwamitus]

... I’m not sure why people feel the need to shoot at high mag in the dark with clip ons ...

From a "practice" perspective ... I think I'm mostly in the "low mag" club at night ... I find I am usually scanning about on the tripod at 3x (minimum day scope magnification) so I can see what it out there ... and often I shoot at that magnification as well ... and inside 200yds for sure, for most critters that is plenty of magnification. In theory I try to crank to 6x for final shot placement ... but in practice it is rare.

As to target shooting ... out to 900yds at night ... we generally crank to 12x on the scopes ... very clear image ... we could try not doing that, but it makes the reticle larger and easier to hold for wind/elevation ... I think that is the main reason we crank. On the spotter for thermal we use Mk3 60mm on either 2x (9x net) digital or 4x (18x net) ... and we can see targets, splash of miss ... fragmentation of hit ... actually easier to see what is happening at night than in the day ...

Wind estimation ... I find longer periods of "constant" at night around here anyway ... but less able to see the trees ... so more relying on sound/feel to judge changes, less reliance on sight. But more periods of "constant" helps.

But in general, for some reason ... I find magnification looks "amplified" at night ... the 4.5x optical magnification on the mk3 60mm seems like a huge amount of magnification ... in the day time ... 4.5x magnification is like ... eeh ... not so much ... not sure why magnification seems "magnified" at night ... but it does to me

 

[afv338]

i picked up a 30 when they first came available other than using a 14 it was my first time using a front clip-on, first time out with it and using it with a nightforce actar went up to 14 power and shot steel out to 500 with no problem i am very happy with it. we just received 2 pvs 27's i had the chance to look at them side by side other than the weight and my partner was using his with a s&b pm2 with using the 30 i could see more facial features than he could with the 27 and he agreed so take it from their. the only feature i dont like with it is trying to focus it as you need really long arms to reach the controls take it from their didnt know about not being able to get them fixed thats sucks.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

the only feature i dont like with it is trying to focus it as you need really long arms to reach the controls take it from their didnt know about not being able to get them fixed thats sucks.

This is my complaint too. Where you using it with a 5-25 S&B by any chance that's ridiculously long? That's what I run and with a PVS-30 I can't reach the ring at all to adjust it. I have to make an adjustment and then look through the optic. The upside is that I have found a spot where I can have good focus from 100ish yards to 600 or so without messing with resolution too much. I put a little sharpie mark on it so that I can index it each time incase it gets moved and I don't have to try to adjust each time.

This is where the CNVD-LR and Simrad's really shine. All the the controls are easy to reach. Especially the Simrad, the controls are right there in front of your turrets.

 

[Night Assassin]

This is my complaint too. Where you using it with a 5-25 S&B by any chance that's ridiculously long? That's what I run and with a PVS-30 I can't reach the ring at all to adjust it. I have to make an adjustment and then look through the optic. The upside is that I have found a spot where I can have good focus from 100ish yards to 600 or so without messing with resolution too much. I put a little sharpie mark on it so that I can index it each time incase it gets moved and I don't have to try to adjust each time.

This is where the CNVD-LR and Simrad's really shine. All the the controls are easy to reach. Especially the Simrad, the controls are right there in front of your turrets.

I have been running mine in front of my S&B 5X20 ultra short and it is now within reach. Seems to be just in reach to stay behind the glass. I ran it infant of the 5X25 and you can't reach the focus at all while on glass.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I have been running mine in front of my S&B 5X20 ultra short and it is now within reach. Seems to be just in reach to stay behind the glass. I ran it infant of the 5X25 and you can't reach the focus at all while on glass.

Yeah the ultra short, 4-16 ATACR F1, and just about any 1-6/8 works really nice with them for reach.

 

[Nate O.]

Through my 30 and atacr..Short pole is at 855. Picture doesnt do much for how it looked to my eye

 

[Mike_Honcho]

Looking at the can hanging off the pole in the distant right - looks like great conditions. What power was the optic on for the photo?

 

[Nate O.]

Mike, ATACR was set on 4x, this was taken an hour after sunset, so just entering Astro Twilight. Clear sky, plenty of stars and moon at 20%.

I'd have to range that "can" you see on the right, but I'd say it's between 1100 and 1200

 

[niteshooter]

Wow this thing got busy. Thought it faded away. A stomach bug kept me indoors tonight, had to cancel hunting plans, otherwise I’d be glassing fields now. Seems like the ATACR scopes work well for some. The 4-16x50 would probably suit me well. I also mostly use the lowest power scanning fields or shooting to 200 yards. Dialing up what I can past that.
My days off shift always fall on new moon so usually crap conditions to start with. Not ideal for more mag. Hence my curiosity if there’s something better to be had.
That’s also why I don’t think the 7-35 atacr would be a good fit. Maybe 5-25 would be ok for the dark nights. I know 4-16 would be fine.
Anybody have issues with first focal plane on 4-5 power mag.
My Torch Pro II is great for 1/4 mile. Much past that it seems to glare out the deatails.
I wouldn’t know which illuminator would be a marked improvement, if anyone has suggestions I’m all ears.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

Wow this thing got busy. Thought it faded away. A stomach bug kept me indoors tonight, had to cancel hunting plans, otherwise I’d be glassing fields now. Seems like the ATACR scopes work well for some. The 4-16x50 would probably suit me well. I also mostly use the lowest power scanning fields or shooting to 200 yards. Dialing up what I can past that.
My days off shift always fall on new moon so usually crap conditions to start with. Not ideal for more mag. Hence my curiosity if there’s something better to be had.
That’s also why I don’t think the 7-35 atacr would be a good fit. Maybe 5-25 would be ok for the dark nights. I know 4-16 would be fine.
Anybody have issues with first focal plane on 4-5 power mag.
My Torch Pro II is great for 1/4 mile. Much past that it seems to glare out the deatails.
I wouldn’t know which illuminator would be a marked improvement, if anyone has suggestions I’m all ears.

if you want to increase your range and capability of a clip on ...laser illumination is the way to go. peq-2a, peq-15 or for a civ version a luna elir-3 with filter removed.

 

[Rudy Gonsior]

I've been running the MAWL DA and C1+ professionally over the last year, they're probably out of the pricepoint for your average hunter but as a professional grade optic it's my personal favorite both in terms of ergonomics and illumantion performance. Even when compared to say the PEQ-2A, PEQ-15 the C1+ seems to offer a much more "efficient" beam and illumnation performance that nearly revivals the LA-5s in my opinion.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

id definitely like to try one sometime. not too much feedback out there on them and youre about the only one ive talked to that's ran one at long range. gonna have to try and check one out

 

[wigwamitus]

... Anybody have issues with first focal plane on 4-5 power mag ...

Lately I'm running 3-15 or 3-18 FFP scopes behind thermal clipons. I'm usually on 3x scanning, which is best for max FOV. Occasionally I crank up the magnification for shot placement. At three x behind a thermal clipon a little bit of illumination helps accent the center of the cross hair for aiming. The reticle itself, at 3x or 4x is just a cross hair for my eyeballs, but the illumination helps the cross hair standout from the black/white image seen via thermal.

 

[Nate O.]

No problems seeing the reticle with FF here

Anybody have issues with first focal plane on 4-5 power mag.