Us 22 lr ammo

[Tetezud]

I wonder why can’t American companies make 22 lr ammo as good as eley or lapua . In my Cz at-one it’s easy to shoot a ragged one hole group at 50yds. The only gun I have that shoots like the Cz is a 6 ppc bench gun. Maybe a US company will see this message.

 

[22 Junkie Jer]

Not likey. The quantity over quality principle for American rimfire rifles, and ammunition producers was settled long ago. American companies (excluding Vudoo, Zermatt, Volquartsen, Kidd) abandoned -quality- decades ago in lieu of shareholder’s dividends. It’s a shame to play in this game and be see that the best “bang for your buck” comes from our friends in Europe. Some might argue that Federal makes a comparable product, but that’s likely because they’ve never been willing to cough up more $10 for a box of 50 without having a coronary.

 

[justin amateur]

Federal hasn't manufactured Benchrest quality rimfire
since they stopped production of UltraMatch a few decades back.
Recent production of competition grade Federal product
was relabeled RWS R50. Even had the identifier on the end flap.
The machinery and technology used by American companies
is last century, as are the priming methods. Minimal quality control,
no lot grading, only function testing and chamber pressure safety testing.
It's all bulk 22lr, fine for offhand hunting, plinking or pistol use.

As long as consumers buy every cartridge made, as fast as it's made,
no matter how minimal the accuracy obtained, there is no motivation to improve quality.
Profit is the bottom line, not reinvesting capital when unnecessary.

 

[1911JMB]

Sad but true

 

[1813Benny]

No brainer - not enough demand to justify development and overall investment. 99% of US shooters are happy with Minute of Berm accuracy.

 

[lariat]

No brainer - not enough demand to justify development and overall investment. 99% of US shooters are happy with Minute of Berm accuracy.

True. Add to this the hangfires, misaligned bullets in cases and you get super shitty ammo in a bulk box. I had a whole lot that had hangfires recently. Contacted the manufacturer and they just said to send it back for a replacement. Not if I’m going to get the same crap.

 

[hlee]

Americans see 22lr as a kids' gun and spend accordingly.

 

[hlee]

True. Add to this the hangfires, misaligned bullets in cases and you get super shitty ammo in a bulk box. I had a whole lot that had hangfires recently. Contacted the manufacturer and they just said to send it back for a replacement. Not if I’m going to get the same crap.

Remington Golden bullet. My kids and I (half) jokingly say "There's a malf in every mag." Teach the youngsters early how to efficiently clear a jam in a 10/22. "Daaaaaad. Can't we just shoot the Center X?"

 

[flatland1]

You would think that if some of the people involved in commercial ammo production & sales would pull their heads out long enough to see the light, they'd realize there's a larger market for match quality 22LR ammo than there has been for the past 40yrs. And maybe if it weren't for all the political crap that gets flung at the shooting sports, at least one of those companies would have the good sense & courage to at least look into making a line of match 22RF ammo that would compete with SK, if not Lapua & Eley. I haven't been to SHOT since 2010 (and am not looking to go again anytime soon), but it'd be interesting to find out if any of those folks even notice the booths of Vudoo, Zermatt, Anschutz, & whomever else produces precision RF firearms and attends SHOT. Sometimes I think the majority of the ammo producers are so jaded & out of touch that they don't have a clue. Even if that was so, you'd think they'd notice how fast a container (or two) of premium 22RF Match ammo sells out in today's U.S. market...or am I just being unrealistic when it comes to believing any of them actually pay any attention to trends in the shooting markets?

 

[RTH1800]

When you see what bulk ammo does all day long in a Savage why improve at all?
(Sarcasm font here)

 

[hlee]

Because some have expectations greater than minute of beer can...

 

[RTH1800]

That was a joke in my post above.

 

[hlee]

We really need a sarcasm font...

 

[RTH1800]

Fixed it!

 

[308pirate]

So to all of you who say there is a business case to be made producing world class 22LR ammo in the US, can you please lay out your data that proves your case?

I'll wait as long as it takes........

 

[308pirate]

Maybe a US company will see this message.

LOL

Do you really think that they would not be doing it if there was a good ROI?

 

[hlee]

So to all of you who say there is a business case to be made producing world class 22LR ammo in the US, can you please lay out your data that proves your case?

I'll wait as long as it takes........

[Sarcasm Font] I know at least 3 or 4 shooters that would buy a box of 50 to try out. But, if it isn't both more consistent and cheaper than Center X, then GTFO... [/Sarcasm Font]

 

[chevy_man]

LOL

Do you really think that they would not be doing it if there was a good ROI?

The problem is marketing. There is some idiot that is trying to cram a product we don't want down our throats all day long while ignoring what we do actually buy. You see this all over in the small boutique manufacturers that are out of stock 99% of the time, but someone with the money to put it into full scale production sees it as a waste since "nobody really wants that".

My buddy works as an engineer in a large firearm/sporting goods company. The stuff he has told me on ideas/products he's designed that get shot down are crazy. The shooters/R&D guys have had products sitting around for years, and as soon as someone else brings it to market they go "oh shit" and then take 2 years doing packaging design and tooling/production changes to start full scale. Meanwhile the market sees them as stealing an idea from the little guy and they have shit sales.
I know of one particular product that they had shipping containers full, waiting on packaging. Engineer sat on it for 9 months, just wouldn't put a few hours into designing and approving a package.

 

[ma smith]

the cz 45x, sako/tikka t1x, and bergara ...guess what...all these off the shelf

can exploid hight quality ammo and still shoot regular stuff

none of are made in the usa either

...sad but true...

 

[308pirate]

The problem is marketing. There is some idiot that is trying to cram a product we don't want down our throats all day long while ignoring what we do actually buy.

All of you are looking at this from your narrow, niche point of view.

Unless you actually have sales/marketing data showing how big the "precision" rimfire ammo segment is, you're just exposing your personal bias as market research.

I don't have the data either, but I strongly suspect that it looks like this

1. Plinking garbage ammo market $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
2. Boutique high end ammo market $$

 

[Sky Blue Lou]

I don't have the data either, but I strongly suspect that it looks like this

1. Plinking garbage ammo market $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
2. Boutique high end ammo market $$

I suspect this is close to the truth.

 

[hlee]

Replace the 2 dollar signs with a single “cent” sign…

 

[flatland1]

I don't know why you'd consider the market for match grade ammo as a 'boutique' niche. While it's true that the number of serious smallbore bullseye prone & 3-position shooters has no doubt diminished a lot since the 1950&'60s, the demand has always been there for match quality 22RF ammo. However, I'd argue that the demand for match quality ammo since NRL22 & other practical/tactical 22RF matches have become popular is up considerably over what it was a few short years ago. Vudoo Gun Works alone has been selling all the bb'd actions & complete rifles that they can produce for several years, as has Zermatt, and now we finally have the Ultimatum Duece being delivered. Add the thousands of CZ457 & Tikka T1X rifles that have sold since they were introduced almost 6yrs ago, I don't believe that this trend towards precision 22RF rifles is merely a 'blip' on the radar screen, but more of a long-term desire on the part of shooters for more consistently accurate rimfire rifles. And you gotta have precision ammo to feed them to get the accuracy potential out of these rifles.

Whatever - I don't have a great deal of hope that U.S. manufacturers will jump back into match quality 22RF ammo production - but as unlikely as it seems to some, you just never know when a company with the means to make it happen will make that choice...

 

[308pirate]

I don't know why you'd consider the market for match grade ammo as a 'boutique' niche. While it's true that the number of serious smallbore bullseye prone & 3-position shooters has no doubt diminished a lot since the 1950&'60s, the demand has always been there for match quality 22RF ammo. However, I'd argue that the demand for match quality ammo since NRL22 & other practical/tactical 22RF matches have become popular is up considerably over what it was a few short years ago. Vudoo Gun Works alone has been selling all the bb'd actions & complete rifles that they can produce for several years, as has Zermatt, and now we finally have the Ultimatum Duece being delivered. Add the thousands of CZ457 & Tikka T1X rifles that have sold since they were introduced almost 6yrs ago, I don't believe that this trend towards precision 22RF rifles is merely a 'blip' on the radar screen, but more of a long-term desire on the part of shooters for more consistently accurate rimfire rifles. And you gotta have precision ammo to feed them to get the accuracy potential out of these rifles.

Whatever - I don't have a great deal of hope that U.S. manufacturers will jump back into match quality 22RF ammo production - but as unlikely as it seems to some, you just never know when a company with the means to make it happen will make that choice...

With all due respect, all of the above is your speculation with ZERO data to back it up

You claim that "thousands of CZ 457 and Tikka T1X sold over the last 6 years". What is that? 1000, 5000, 50,000? Do you know? I bet not.

Big businesses don't give a fiddler's fuck about opinions. They make decisions based on data, profit and contribution margins, and return on investment. The good ones that stay afloat do, anyway.

Anyway, go pitch your case to Vista Outdoors. Call 1-763-433-1000 and ask for Jason Vanderbrink.

 

[hlee]

US manufacturers have all of their capacity focused on bulk rimfire. There is a huge opportunity cost in channeling even a fraction of that into match quality ammunition. If there were money to be made, they would be making it. Say what you will about Americans, but we are known the world over for being driven by money.

 

[grauhanen]

There are a lot of shooters who are looking for very good accuracy who would spend a lot on a rifle but would seek to economize on ammo by using less-expensive varieties of ammo. I wouldn't be surprised if they outnumbered those shooters who will buy top level rifles and top level ammo. The first group may not appreciate that a rifle, no matter what make or model, will not outshoot the ammo it's given.

In any case, the production of top quality .22LR match ammo is an expensive proposition. It requires machinery other than that used to produce inexpensive bulk ammo. Perhaps it's no coincidence that none of the big three match ammo makers -- Eley, Lapua, and RWS -- make an inexpensive bulk ammo to compete with American bulk ammo. The closest thing may be SK Magazine, the lowest variety in the SK hierarchy. Of course, those looking seriously for .22LR accuracy probably aren't going to be looking for SK varieties, except for use in practice.

 

[flatland1]

Actually, I feel it'd be a huge step up if a U.S. ammo manufacturer would start making 22RF ammo as good as SK's baseline Std+(not Magazine, the boxed Std+). Over the past 10yrs or so, I've found a few lots of Std+ that shot plenty good enough in quality bolt rifles to be used at 200yds. My current lot of Std+ shoots nearly as good as a very good lot of SK Rifle Match. There will be an occasional flier with the Std+ that I don't see with Rifle Match, but it's so good that I wish I'd have purchased at least a couple more cases of it instead of only one. But as stated above, SK doesn't start out to make economy grade ammo, Std+ is just the stuff that isn't quite good enough to be sold as Rifle Match.

 

[hlee]

I think it could well be argued that there is even less market in the “better than bulk but not quite match quality” market. I mean, if you are in the market for bulk ammo then price is king, and “better than bulk” will be more expensive. And, if you are in the match ammo market, you are probably not terribly affected by price, so you aren’t that interested in measurably lower quality for insignificantly lower cost.

 

[shootrj2003]

Americans ammunition interests is based on hunting and plinking,Europeans are more likely to use more ammunition on formal target shooting at ranges, ours is based on being more free to shoot informally at many dirt banks or clubs .Europeans for the most part have to utilize established club ranges,thier ammo is more controlled less amounts are available,and so what is made is made to higher standards for more formal shooting,the one thing they can ask for is precision,precision sells in Europe,quantity sells in America.we like to shoot a lot,they like to shoot carefully.
For the most part my most desirable target round is CCI SV ,THIERS is RWS or ELEY. They don’t have that much choice, hopefully we don’t sink to that point.

 

[nockhunter]

Federal made some really good ammo not too long ago, and might be some coming down the road again.
I posted this earlier.

American 22lr match ammo

Looks like we might see some American made match again. Mike

www.snipershide.com

Mike

 

[grauhanen]

Federal made some really good ammo not too long ago

Federal discontinued making it's "good" match ammo (Gold Medal Ultra Match) about two decades ago, around 2002. To borrow from the Boss, it ain't coming back.

 

[shootrj2003]

I don't know why you'd consider the market for match grade ammo as a 'boutique' niche. While it's true that the number of serious smallbore bullseye prone & 3-position shooters has no doubt diminished a lot since the 1950&'60s, the demand has always been there for match quality 22RF ammo. However, I'd argue that the demand for match quality ammo since NRL22 & other practical/tactical 22RF matches have become popular is up considerably over what it was a few short years ago. Vudoo Gun Works alone has been selling all the bb'd actions & complete rifles that they can produce for several years, as has Zermatt, and now we finally have the Ultimatum Duece being delivered. Add the thousands of CZ457 & Tikka T1X rifles that have sold since they were introduced almost 6yrs ago, I don't believe that this trend towards precision 22RF rifles is merely a 'blip' on the radar screen, but more of a long-term desire on the part of shooters for more consistently accurate rimfire rifles. And you gotta have precision ammo to feed them to get the accuracy potential out of these rifles.

Whatever - I don't have a great deal of hope that U.S. manufacturers will jump back into match quality 22RF ammo production - but as unlikely as it seems to some, you just never know when a company with the means to make it happen will make that choice...

Why didn’t you mention Bergara?Bergaras are ,even the BMR,unarguably a precision .22 rifle….match chamber,precision,model 700 compatible trigger ,precision…30 moa scope rail intended for 100-300 ranges ?sounds like a rifle made with precision! Pillar bedded from factory,sounds like the mfg.thinks this rifle can shoot precisely,and it does.

 

[n2ishun]

If there wasn't a market for it Bergara, Kidd, Volquartsen, Anshutz, etc etc etc would be out of business.
Can't tell me there is no market for it.
It's because it costs more to make and the company honchos see that ONLY and don't see the fact that they can easily charge more for it and make probably 20% higher profits as the end result.
It's what I call being monetarily blind.

 

[308pirate]

Actually, I feel it'd be a huge step up if a U.S. ammo manufacturer would start making 22RF ammo as good as SK's baseline Std+(not Magazine, the boxed Std+). Over the past 10yrs or so, I've found a few lots of Std+ that shot plenty good enough in quality bolt rifles to be used at 200yds. My current lot of Std+ shoots nearly as good as a very good lot of SK Rifle Match. There will be an occasional flier with the Std+ that I don't see with Rifle Match, but it's so good that I wish I'd have purchased at least a couple more cases of it instead of only one. But as stated above, SK doesn't start out to make economy grade ammo, Std+ is just the stuff that isn't quite good enough to be sold as Rifle Match.

Businesses don't care about feelings

 

[obx22]

Helluva great thread
I’ve been blessed to own a lot (far more than all but two people I know) rimfires in my life. I am a target shooter who hunts, and love the new precision rifle games, even though the majority of my rifles are not good choices.
That said, I constantly (again Tue night) get raked over the coals because I refuse to pay the fee for top-shelf ammo, preferring decent mid-grade and tweaking my guns accordingly.
45 years ago I was introduced to Navy Arms imported blue box standard velocity which out grouped everything I could source locally. The dealer who introduced it to me opened my eyes to the ammo quest. I discovered:
RWS Subsonic HP (nickle cased)Germany
Win. Subsonic HP (white box/Aussie made)
Fiocchi M320 (Italy)
PMC Target and Sidewinder (Korea)
Then I found Federal Target 711, and 711B, incredible stuff I used like water that would always be there.
When it changed, I found Winchester Dynapoints and the older T-22, as good as I remembered the Federal, at half the price (initially).
About the same time I discovered NAMMO’s Wolf MT, ME, MG, they were slower ammo, but had the distinction of grouping well in everything I owned. The MT became my choice for my match shooting, and I went through case after case without a single failure!
Now days things have shifted:
Fiocchi, some Eley, PMC, and others seem to have shifted production to Mexico. Aguila, even the Match rifle and Match pistol black box, was only decent in warm weather, subject to fliers in the chill of winter.
The CMP sold cases of bull pack Eley, but it wasn’t the best in my rifles across the board. Geco (I’m assuming based on headstamp, rebranded RWS) bolt rifle and semi-auto do ok, but seem to have disappeared from the shelves. I wrote this book to say this, very little accurate ammo has circulated that was made domestically (anyone remember Winchester Benchrest-blech!).
Many theories abound, such as the closing of a decent plant which made a specific acid used in gunpowder production, shutting down of lead smelting plants, etc. Everything shifts to countries with perhaps less stringent eco laws for mfg?
As for numbers: I’m quite sure that if you added the production numbers of “precision” guns, even those targeting entry level comp. you would have more than enough of a market for full-time production. Add in rimfire Bullseye, Silhouette, 3-P, Prone-Palma, F-class, etc. and you have a remarkable amount of money left to foreign markets.
Just opinions of a crotchety turd.

 

[hlee]

The ‘target’ and ‘ultra’ ammunition I’ve bought from the FGMM line have soured me to any federal 22lr offering. They were terrible out of my Kidd, which shoots ragged holes at 50y with CenterX. Remington golden bullet is barely functional, producing some form of feeding malfunction, on average, once per magazine. I don’t have an opinion on Winchester beyond “as an American name, in 2022, they’re trading on that primarily and not a quality product.” CCI SV has been ok out of a Tac Sol barreled 10/22 and I use that combination for lower cost plinking. Eley primed Aguila Super Match was surprisingly good out of my factory Ruger 10/22 barrel- dirty, but held the tightest groups of any ammunition I could source locally at the time. It appears, however, that the line may be discontinued.

Unless you’re just plinking in the yard, low cost precision ammunition is false economy. US manufacturing has spoken. Their customers’ primary concern is $/round, not hits/box.

The worst part about Lapua center X is I have 1000s of rounds of low to mid priced 22lr that will- likely- never get shot. For a PRS style 22lr comp, I don’t make enough money to buy cheap ammo. Once I started buying quality ammunition, I couldn’t justify buying bricks of bulk packed plinker ammo.

 

[grauhanen]

It may be counter intuitive to think that ammunition manufacturers don't make a killing on the most expensive of match ammos. According to George Frost in his chapter on "The .22 Match Cartridge" in Ammunition Making there's not a great deal of financial incentive to make the best .22LR ammunition.

Unless someone comes up with a magic formula that makes match quality ammunition as easy to produce as regular cartridges, nobody is apt to make much money out of producing .22 Rimfire Match ammunition.
Producing this very fussy product is either a labor of love, or for prestige. It is not for great profit. The care necessary to make good match, and the ammunition quantities shot up in testing cost far more than the amount that would spent in making the same amount of regular cartridges.

If there's good profits to be made, it must be in the varieties that are used the most, the inexpensive bulk .22LR ammos. That's where American ammo makers focus.