Use of Safeties on bolt guns

[Zigjib]

Hey dudes;

Not sure if this is the best place to ask this but I need some opinions and experience based on best use of Bolt Gun safeties.

Organisationally, we use degrees of weapon readiness and use the following sequence for loading to the action condition;
Bolt to the rear, Clear/Clear/Clear
Safety On
Mag On
Close Bolt
Press Check
Check Safe
Standby

This is across the Semi's and the Bolt guns which are anything from an M40A5 to an MRAD.

The gun then stays in this condition until it needs to be unloaded, or is being slung/bagged for an extended period of time.

We've been working with some other blokes who don't use the safety and instead helo load or cold load the gun. This is weapon uncocked and bolt closed on an empty chamber. The magazine is then inserted. Most guns being safe-on-cock can't be put to safe without cocking the weapon so it appears that the gun isn't safe on visual inspection.

To load the rifle, they just cycle the bolt. Instead of applying safe, they open the bolt and move with the bolt to the rear. This ejects an unfired round and it's either captured/collected as part of opening the bolt, or is abandoned if tactically required. 1/4 cocking used to be a thing until there were a few too many zingers, but essentially the bolt is open if they are moving.

What is the more common method for operational use, not talking competition, PRS etc? Trying to stay relevant and up to speed and interested in seeing what people's experiences are and pros and cons to either method.

Cheers

Carso

 

[diggler1833]

Not talking competition?

My safety goes on each time the rifle is made into 'condition one' (round in chamber, bolt forward) when I am NOT immediately going to fire. Every time it moves, the safety is on if I have a round chambered. This is how I conduct all range sessions, and dedicated hunting stands...basically anytime I'm in C1.

Now, I'm also guilty of keeping some rifles stored in condition three as you mentioned (magazine loaded, bolt forward, chamber empty, firing pin released). The rifles in my safe that I grab for shooting critters 200+ off the porch are all stored that way. I do this basically so I don't have to fumble to find a loaded mag when I'm in a hurry, AND I don't have to worry about what might happen if I had a mechanical safety failure.

So I guess I do both. It is just situational dependent for me.

 

[Tokay444]

Mag in. Bolt back. No safety.

 

[OREGUN]

“Organizationally”.

Whom? Local LEO? Local militia? “The unit”? Homeboys at the range?

How do you press check a bolt gun?

Seems like an organizational SOP question that you will have to answer for yourself. In my organization of one, a magazine is not inserted until immediately prior to the commencement of shooting and the bolt is not closed until the target is in the sight picture. A mechanical safety is completely irrelevant.

 

[hlee]

Not talking competition?

My safety goes on each time the rifle is made into 'condition one' (round in chamber, bolt forward) when I am NOT immediately going to fire. Every time it moves, the safety is on if I have a round chambered. This is how I conduct all range sessions, and dedicated hunting stands...basically anytime I'm in C1.

Now, I'm also guilty of keeping some rifles stored in condition three as you mentioned (magazine loaded, bolt forward, chamber empty, firing pin released). The rifles in my safe that I grab for shooting critters 200+ off the porch are all stored that way. I do this basically so I don't have to fumble to find a loaded mag when I'm in a hurry, AND I don't have to worry about what might happen if I had a mechanical safety failure.

So I guess I do both. It is just situational dependent for me.

So, any reason that you keep your bolt actions with the firing pin released? Running the action is somewhat easier when you're not cocking the firing pin. Maybe the difference in effort is not material, but it is noticeable. Just curious.

 

[diggler1833]

So, any reason that you keep your bolt actions with the firing pin released? Running the action is somewhat easier when you're not cocking the firing pin. Maybe the difference in effort is not material, but it is noticeable. Just curious.

Yeah, it's probably an old wives tale...but I just feel better leaving any firearm for any length of time with the firing pin spring released and not cocked.

Most of these utility guns I have spare springs for too. It's just a habit since the majority of my collection are older guns (50+ years), and I'd rather not have more than one method of storage.

There's no science behind it.

 

[FredHammer]

I practically forgot bolt guns have safeties.

 

[FimRire RongLifle]

Not all of them. My Bernard action doesn't have one.

 

[delfuego]

Bolt open and mag out. Safe and visibly unloaded.
Carbine, mag out, bolt locked to rear, safety on. Show clear.
Field matches with hiking, bolt closed on empty chamber, mag out. Don't wanna lose your bolt on the trail.

Only time I even thought seriously about the safety was the Steel Safari drop test. Lots of people in the parking lot adjusting triggers so they would pass. Good Ol' Stan. Making memories

 

[Zigjib]

“Organizationally”.

Whom? Local LEO? Local militia? “The unit”? Homeboys at the range?

How do you press check a bolt gun?

Seems like an organizational SOP question that you will have to answer for yourself. In my organization of one, a magazine is not inserted until immediately prior to the commencement of shooting and the bolt is not closed until the target is in the sight picture. A mechanical safety is completely irrelevant.

Bunch of hardcore larpers bro. We call ourselves "the organization" for street cred. The lady at the milk bar thinks it's cute we all wear matching shirts and gives us discounts on our choc malts.....

You press check a bolt gun by closing the bolt to chamber a round, then raising the bolt and pulling it roughly 1/4 length to the rear to expose the base of the cartridge. You then feel for it's presence to confirm there's a round chambered and close the bolt again. Learnt it playing fortnight.

Was more hoping for the professional shooters to chime in, but thanks anyhow.

 

[Zigjib]

Not talking competition?

My safety goes on each time the rifle is made into 'condition one' (round in chamber, bolt forward) when I am NOT immediately going to fire. Every time it moves, the safety is on if I have a round chambered. This is how I conduct all range sessions, and dedicated hunting stands...basically anytime I'm in C1.

Now, I'm also guilty of keeping some rifles stored in condition three as you mentioned (magazine loaded, bolt forward, chamber empty, firing pin released). The rifles in my safe that I grab for shooting critters 200+ off the porch are all stored that way. I do this basically so I don't have to fumble to find a loaded mag when I'm in a hurry, AND I don't have to worry about what might happen if I had a mechanical safety failure.

So I guess I do both. It is just situational dependent for me.

The first part sounds like how we are running. Safety on if there's a round in the chamber. We figure if you've chambered a round, you've done it for a reason. Bolt to the rear mag on was weird to us. Looked like it'd get debris etc into the chamber and bore potentially. Plus with enough inertia the bolt can go forward and strip a round from the mag.
Figured there'd be a rhyme and reason. Makes sense that it's the safest it can be though.

 

[diggler1833]

The first part sounds like how we are running. Safety on if there's a round in the chamber. We figure if you've chambered a round, you've done it for a reason. Bolt to the rear mag on was weird to us. Looked like it'd get debris etc into the chamber and bore potentially. Plus with enough inertia the bolt can go forward and strip a round from the mag.
Figured there'd be a rhyme and reason. Makes sense that it's the safest it can be though.

Don't quote me because I don't compete in any discipline anymore. However I think the bolt to the rear guys do it that way because it is easier for the range safety officer to visually confirm that there is zero chance of a negligent discharge while switching positions.

I would think it is fine for a single stage...but like you, it would make no sense for me to operate that way around the ranch here. My ranch rifle looks like I rolled around in moon dust every time I get back from checking things. No way would I have an open bolt (it is an AR so the dust cover is closed too).

 

[CK1.0]

I keep forgetting to remove the safety on my TT Diamond (thanks for the reminder lol).

 

[hlee]

Im not a "professional shooter" but I find it odd that a professional shooter would need to turn to the internet to find out how to use a rifle safety... Larpers indeed.

 

[OREGUN]

Bunch of hardcore larpers bro. We call ourselves "the organization" for street cred. The lady at the milk bar thinks it's cute we all wear matching shirts and gives us discounts on our choc malts.....

You press check a bolt gun by closing the bolt to chamber a round, then raising the bolt and pulling it roughly 1/4 length to the rear to expose the base of the cartridge. You then feel for it's presence to confirm there's a round chambered and close the bolt again. Learnt it playing fortnight.

Was more hoping for the professional shooters to chime in, but thanks anyhow.

You are the one asking “organizational” level questions on the internet there bud. Does anyone in your “organizational” know anything about operational risk management, researching best practices, the relationship between tactics and strategy, OPSEC? You specifically said it wasn’t a competition thing so half the people here are excluded from the conversation. Of the other half, only a small slice might have the experience you are looking for and they are likely unable to answer because their organization does in fact understand the above list.

Long story short, you are in the wrong place, asking the wrong questions, of the wrong people. Unless you are a LARPER with no fucking clue. So that’s what I went with.

 

[308pirate]

Organisationally, we use degrees of weapon readiness and use the following sequence for loading to the action condition;
Bolt to the rear, Clear/Clear/Clear
Safety On
Mag On
Close Bolt
Press Check
Check Safe
Standby

Who's We, suckah?

 

[roostercogburn98]

 

[Baron23]

Who's We, suckah?

He is most definitely not saying…been asked already and he came back with snark.

 

[FimRire RongLifle]

Well one thing many bolt actions/triggers won't do is go to safe with an open bolt.

Not only is it ergonomically difficult they actually WILL not engage and makes the suggested sequence above non universal.

 

[Zigjib]

You are the one asking “organizational” level questions on the internet there bud. Does anyone in your “organizational” know anything about operational risk management, researching best practices, the relationship between tactics and strategy, OPSEC? You specifically said it wasn’t a competition thing so half the people here are excluded from the conversation. Of the other half, only a small slice might have the experience you are looking for and they are likely unable to answer because their organization does in fact understand the above list.

Long story short, you are in the wrong place, asking the wrong questions, of the wrong people. Unless you are a LARPER with no fucking clue. So that’s what I went with.

You miss-quoted "organizational" in your first sentence, and then mis-used it in your second sentence.

Just to clarify, you can just say "I do X with the safety", without posting your Affiliation, Name, Rank, Service Number, NOK and Mother's Maiden name etc. ..... If you're not comfortable talking about it you can just not post.

I didn't mean to offend the competition shooters by excluding them, we run competitions here and it's different because of range safety requirements.

Larp Hard or Die Tryin' my dude.

 

[Zigjib]

Well one thing many bolt actions/triggers won't do is go to safe with an open bolt.

Not only is it ergonomically difficult they actually WILL not engage and makes the suggested sequence above non universal.

In my experience the Safety will go to safe with the bolt open. It's if the bolt is closed and spring released that it won't apply. Typically. I'm sure there are exceptions to this.

 

[Zigjib]

He is most definitely not saying…been asked already and he came back with snark.

I'm definitely not going to say, because this IS the internet, but in my defence of my snark, there was a bit of attitude in the post that I was responding to. I kinda feel justified in what goes around comes around there.

 

[Zigjib]

View attachment 8476465

Hey the background of this scene actually forms part of this discussion!!

I can't remember if it was in Mark Bowden's book or not, but Delta were "Cold loading" or "Rack Loading" the gun, where in a magazine was in the rifle, but the working parts weren't cocked and there's no round in the chamber. As the Safety can't be applied with an un-cocked weapon, it was perceived that the weapon wasn't "safe". Hoot's response here wasn't that of lack of firearm safety, it was to disrespect Capt Steele.

This was inter-operability variation in drills. Hoot, being as huge of a fan of OPSEC and the protection of how the safety is applied as OREGUN, chose insubordination over giving away VITAL Operational Security or Strategy and Tactics Details. Take THAT Capt Steele you fucking LARPER!

 

[FimRire RongLifle]

In my experience the Safety will go to safe with the bolt open. It's if the bolt is closed and spring released that it won't apply. Typically. I'm sure there are exceptions to this.

There are many exceptions especially in Remington based trigger systems.

 

[Zigjib]

There are many exceptions especially in Remington based trigger systems.

Maybe we are talking about different things?

 

[Zigjib]

Im not a "professional shooter" but I find it odd that a professional shooter would need to turn to the internet to find out how to use a rifle safety... Larpers indeed.

You'd be surprised how many people just say "this is how we were taught" with no further consideration.

 

[FimRire RongLifle]

I have to check more rifles now but for example none of my bix and andy's allow for that. You can rack after for certain but it's gotta be bolt closed to go to safe and is cock on lift so not part of the equation.

 

[Zigjib]

I have to check more rifles now but for example none of my bix and andy's allow for that. You can rack after for certain but it's gotta be bolt closed to go to safe and is cock on lift so not part of the equation.

Ah got you, no experience with Bix'n Andy so i'll take your word on those ones. I'll check some of the others. You've got me thinking of the Winchester type safety now on the SPR.

 

[Zigjib]

Who's We, suckah?

Me and your mom, but there's no safety being used there!

 

[Baron23]

Wow...since this thread has gone downhill so far...if it even was ever uphill...I feel entitled to have some fun:

 

[Tokay444]

Well one thing many bolt actions/triggers won't do is go to safe with an open bolt.

Not only is it ergonomically difficult they actually WILL not engage and makes the suggested sequence above non universal.

If the bolt is opened, the gun is safe.

 

[308pirate]

Me and your mom, but there's no safety being used there!

View attachment 8476558

LOL you so funny.

In reality you ain't shit if you're asking for SOPs on the internet.

You know it. I know it. And you know that I know it.

 

[Zigjib]

LOL you so funny.

In reality you ain't shit if you're asking for SOPs on the internet.

You know it. I know it. And you know that I know it.

Ok, now that we all know that much.... Safety on, or just bolt back?

 

[Zigjib]

Wow...since this thread has gone downhill so far...if it even it ever was uphill...I feel entitled to have some fun:

View attachment 8476561

Oh man.... wish I had that kind of budget. Looks like he's got a pool

 

[Zigjib]

If the bolt is opened, the gun is safe.

Agreed. Are you concerned about ingress of debris or the bolt moving forward under inertia to bump a round clear of the mag?

 

[Tokay444]

No.

 

[Zigjib]

No.

Thanks mate. Is the bolt to the rear or just unlocked?

 

[Zigjib]

Bolt open and mag out. Safe and visibly unloaded.
Carbine, mag out, bolt locked to rear, safety on. Show clear.
Field matches with hiking, bolt closed on empty chamber, mag out. Don't wanna lose your bolt on the trail.

Only time I even thought seriously about the safety was the Steel Safari drop test. Lots of people in the parking lot adjusting triggers so they would pass. Good Ol' Stan. Making memories

Cheers mate

 

[Baron23]

Oh man.... wish I had that kind of budget. Looks like he's got a pool

I think he's the lawn boy. He came on here to ask us what he was missing out of his kit....and no, he hasn't been back since! haha

 

[Zigjib]

I think he's the lawn boy. He came on here to ask us what he was missing out of his kit....and no, he hasn't been back since! haha

Oh he's been back.... you just haven't seen him...... His name to his enemies is a haunting whisper.... but you can call him, Max Lethal

 

[Downtown]

Wow...since this thread has gone downhill so far...if it even it ever was uphill...I feel entitled to have some fun:

View attachment 8476561

Ha! A classic, for those who remember.

 

[Zigjib]

Ha! A classic, for those who remember.

He spares 1 in every 1000 so there's someone left to spread the fear.

 

[hlee]

Is it too early to ask about mil vs moa?

 

[M8541Reaper]

Wow...since this thread has gone downhill so far...if it even it ever was uphill...I feel entitled to have some fun:

View attachment 8476561

Omg I forgot about that dude! It’s been years!!!

 

[Baron23]

Omg I forgot about that dude! It’s been years!!!

The Baron Never Forgets....haha ;-)

That image left me emotionally scarred!!

Takes all kinds, right?

 

[Zigjib]

Is it too early to ask about mil vs moa?

Your (MIL) Mother In Law is a big dumb bird. A Moa is also a big dumb bird. Tragically, the Moa is extinct, and not the other way round.

 

[M8541Reaper]

Pro Tip: If your weapon has a safety, use it. Don’t be a tool, be cool. Be kind and rewind that safety to the on position.

#JustTheTip
#ItsPartOfTheFiveSafetyRulesYouTools
#YoureWelcomeForMyService

 

[Zigjib]

Pro Tip: If your weapon has a safety, use it. Don’t be a tool, be cool. Be kind and rewind that safety to the on position.

#JustTheTip
#ItsPartOfTheFiveSafetyRulesYouTools
#YoureWelcomeForMyService

fuck.... it's 2024 and I can't identify what is satire and what is real anymore, but you lost me at "be cool".

 

[OREGUN]

I can only get through this thread if I assume that the “organizational” is from down under and then read everything he’s posted in the most absurd kiwi accent I can conjure up.

Fucking press check a bolt gun.

Don’t leave your bolt gun laying around with a round in the chamber. If you’re not shooting it, the bolt is open and the magazine is out. Period. From an organiszzationall viewpoint.

 

[Tokay444]

Thanks mate. Is the bolt to the rear or just unlocked?

To the rear.