USMC Reorg...

[MarinePMI]

Damn Frank (@lowlight ), they're disbanding 8th Marines(!?!?!?!)...WTF?

The Corps is axing all of its tank battalions and cutting grunt units

As part of Commandant of the Marine Corps Gen. David Berger’s plan to redesign the force to confront China and other peer adversaries by 2030, the Marines are axing all three of its tank battalions, and chucking out all law enforcement battalions and bridging companies, according to a news...

www.marinecorpstimes.com

 

[Centuriator]

Downsizing the USMC? Um...not good.

 

[MarinePMI]

Not sure. They may just be going back to our roots, and not trying to be "the other Army" ground force. More specialized, and focused on being shock troops and a force in readiness (aboard the AFSB platforms like the Chesty Puller). In some ways, it makes total sense. In other ways, it's sad to see history (especially with some of the Regiments that many share a history with/served with) be phased out/deactivated...

15+ years of conflict has shaped (for better or worse) the Corps as a smaller version of the Army, to some degree. I mean, how many current active duty Marines have deployed on a ship? Not very many. How many have done amphibious landings in more than one country? How many have trained as a TRAP team, or NEO operations, or Hostile airfield seizure?

Our difference is the warrior culture, and if we continue to be "the smaller Army", that will die. Better to drive back down to a smaller, and more elite, number (IMHO).

 

[_Windrider_]

Going back to a beach stormer mentality isn’t a bad option considering China in the pacific theater. But I think we should keep the tank battalions. Make em faster and more agile and increase our hover craft fleet to beach them faster. But I’m just a guy on a keyboard. Hopefully the army has their shit together.

 

[earthtrekker1775]

Damn Frank (@lowlight ), they're disbanding 8th Marines(!?!?!?!)...WTF?

The Corps is axing all of its tank battalions and cutting grunt units

As part of Commandant of the Marine Corps Gen. David Berger’s plan to redesign the force to confront China and other peer adversaries by 2030, the Marines are axing all three of its tank battalions, and chucking out all law enforcement battalions and bridging companies, according to a news...

www.marinecorpstimes.com

I was with 3/8 WPNS CO. Berger was the Battalion CO when we deployed to Haiti in 2004. Interesting changes coming for sure.

 

[loveha]

It makes sense, but to deactivate all tank battalions is a little extreme.

 

[Alphatreedog]

Marines without tanks hmm . Marines in Hue , Vietnam . Tanks helped save their asses . Marines in Dessert Storm and Iraqi Freedon , tanks . Tanks in WWII Pacific . What Cake eatin desk ridin douche nozzle came up with this .
Somalia 1993 no armor . Didn't turn out so well . Thanks you Les Aspin for denying armor .

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

Good thing Army Jerry isn't here. He'd be gloating on cloud nine. He's been begging for the demise of the Corps forever. Poor guy just can't stand that he didn't take a few more steps and walk past the Army recruiter.

 

[earthtrekker1775]

Tank battles are notoriously deadly for both sides and any downed tank is a huge loss. But having armor on the battlefield is a big morale boost for grunts. If we are going up against china/NK, Russia... might be better to focus on light, fast, and highly mobile CAAT teams etc. However they switch things up Marines will continue to locate, close with, and destroy America's enemies in every climb and place.

 

[_Windrider_]

Good thing Army Jerry isn't here. He'd be gloating on cloud nine. He's been begging for the demise of the Corps forever. Poor guy just can't stand that he didn't take a few more steps and walk past the Army recruiter.

Nah he’s just mad the marines rejected him.

 

[Alphatreedog]

Tanks win battles because , well tanks win battlea . Oh you're fast n light how cute .

 

[earthtrekker1775]

Tanks win battles because , well tanks win battlea . Oh you're fast n light how cute .

Never seen a tank dodge a TOW missile.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

The article mentions that the HIMARS system will be the focus rather than tanks. HIMARS is the current version of my old job, which was the M277 Multiple Launch Rocket System.


HIMARS:


A single one of these launchers can smash a tank column, or troop concentration, or launch a short range ballistic missle. (Used to be called the ATACMS missile, don't know what it's current version is called)

 

[Greenday4537]

Interesting. 18-19 years in Afghanistan, how much usage of tanks did we REALLY have? Even in Iraq besides the beginning when they had a military fighting us, how much have tanks been used since then? And just now we are ditching tanks in order to prepare for China...who has a huge military where tanks might be more useful? Head scratcher to me, but top brass has way more intelligence on that situation than we do so clearly they don't expect us to need them.

Fuck it, it's the Marines. They show up and make enemies shit their pants at dealing with that.

 

[308pirate]

Marines without tanks hmm . Marines in Hue , Vietnam . Tanks helped save their asses . Marines in Dessert Storm and Iraqi Freedon , tanks . Tanks in WWII Pacific . What Cake eatin desk ridin douche nozzle came up with this .
Somalia 1993 no armor . Didn't turn out so well . Thanks you Les Aspin for denying armor .

You're fighting wars from 30 - 50 years ago.

Navy and Marine leadership is looking 20 - 30 years ahead.

guess who I'd listen to?

 

[ShootnFool8]

Not only getting rid of tanks, but mostly all the artillery tubes. I understand that they say the HIMARS is the thing now. But I still think they will need more of the tubes than what they are saying, or dropping down too.

 

[_Windrider_]

Not only getting rid of tanks, but mostly all the artillery tubes. I understand that they say the HIMARS is the thing now. But I still think they will need more of the tubes than what they are saying, or dropping down too.

Could all be smoke and mirrors too. Who knows. Never let your enemy know your true strategy.

 

[QuickNDirty]

Good thing Army Jerry isn't here. He'd be gloating on cloud nine. He's been begging for the demise of the Corps forever. Poor guy just can't stand that he didn't take a few more steps and walk past the Army recruiter.

I just texted him your comment

 

[ShootnFool8]

Could all be smoke and mirrors too. Who knows. Never let your enemy know your true strategy.

Could be, we did great in Iraq. Especially that they have been talking about extending the range. I know the HIMARS can reach out further, obviously. They came in just as I was getting out. Just think they are going to need more tubes, than what their saying.

 

[pmclaine]

Man I was Weapons 3/8, Dragons Platoon.

Guessing Dragons Platoon got disbanded 20 years ago.

One of my most humbling experiences was being a Corporal at a dinner with our CO Colonel, F Company MSG.

As he went around the table asking each Marine what his MOS was, what was his former unit he came to me and being one of the few Infantry guys at the table I proudly proclaimed 3/8 Wpns Company, Dragons.

He came back with "Second Marine Division? What have they done since WWII?"

That kind of pissed me off and I said "What has any Marine done since WWII?"

and he just said "Korea, Vietnam"

Wish I could take that one back.

The Colonel was Silver Star in VN, 9th Marines.

Richard Frank Vercauteren

Richard Frank Vercauteren, American career officer. Decorated Silver Star medal, Legion of Merit, Distinguished Service Medal; recipient Holland M. Smith award Navy League, 1982; Massachusetts Institute of Technology Center International Technology Studies fellow in foreign politics, 1991...

prabook.com

Still 8th Marines had a stellar history in WWII, Guadalcanal, Tarawa. Saipan, Okinawa, and I was proud to be in the unit.

For the ME they took 2nd Mar Div out of float rotation and actually let them do some work.

Before they disband the 8th Marines they ought to let them go to Beirut and for a good week kick the shit out of Hezbollah. 1/8 should be able to take home the current leaders head on their guidon.

While I was in Liberia I came across the 3rd Bn/8th Marines again when they came in for a NEO Op. Sadly I wasnt impressed. Couple of guys I knew were still with them. They certainly came in ready for war but man were they some sloppy dudes. 2/4 preceded them and left the area cleaner than when they arrived. 3/8 came in and clogged the shitters, destroyed the swimming pool and generally defiled the compound. The craziest was a ND with a SAW on the deck just above the MSG Marine House. Note to the PFC - Dont attach your sling hook to the trigger guard.

Unsure if Marines need full on Abrams but they should have some sort of mobile pill box/ anti hard point capability.

In WWII and later battles tanks came in handy when a hard point problem arose.

Maybe helos/drone will be the airborne tank of the future.

 

[sleeplz]

The army will pick up the slack as usual. Nothing different, move along.

 

[johnrice]

i hope its not true , i have spent many years in 1st and 3rd tanks. many great memories

 

[Huskydriver]

The article mentions that the HIMARS system will be the focus rather than tanks. HIMARS is the current version of my old job, which was the M277 Multiple Launch Rocket System.
View attachment 7283451

HIMARS:
View attachment 7283453

A single one of these launchers can smash a tank column, or troop concentration, or launch a short range ballistic missle. (Used to be called the ATACMS missile, don't know what it's current version is called)

Lol you were ada?

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Lol you were ada?

Neither one of those is ADA (Air Defense Artilllery for those who don't know), they are heavy artillery. MLRS replaced 8 inch for ground warfare back about 1992 IIRC. The M277 was nicknamed the "Grid Smasher" because with a couple aim point shifts, a single launcher could saturate a grid square.

 

[Huskydriver]

Neither one of those is ADA. They are rocket artillery. The M277 was nicknamed the "Grid Smasher" because with a couple aim point shifts, a single launcher could saturate a grid square.

What branch does it fall under? In the army I think all rocket anything falls under Ada could be mistaken though

 

[Deleted member 113831]

What branch does it fall under? In the army I think all rocket anything falls under Ada could be mistaken though

I was 3rd Inf Div. and then 1st Inf Div. from 93-97. It used to be that only the Army heavy artillery units that had this system. But as they have made it more nimble, they implemented it with airborne units like the 82nd, and now I gues with the Marines.

When I was in there was a battalion stationed at FT. Carson with the 4th ID. I see you have 4th ID as your avatar, but don't know when you were there.

 

[Huskydriver]

I was 3rd Inf Div. and then 1st Inf Div. from 93-97. It used to be that only the Army heavy artillery units that had this system. But as they have made it more nimble, they implemented it with airborne units like the 82nd, and now I gues with the Marines.

When I was in there was a battalion stationed at FT. Carson with the 4th ID. I see you have 4th ID as your avatar, but don't know when you were there.

They didn't have any at Carson under the 4 brigade structure when I was there that I was aware of but it's possible. I ran into some mlrs guys out there but don't think they were 4th id pretty sure they were 2id guys that came in for a calfx training. All the other manuveur and support units fired live. The mlrs did not. I asked a couple of the mlrs guys I ran into about the mlrs and were so excited to talk about it. I asked later if they had ever shot it for reals they looked down and said no haha too expensive.

So are mlrs standard heavy FA battalions then?

 

[Matches Malone]

Apricot

 

[MK20]

Airfield seizure is owned by someone else.

 

[Forrest84]

Funny my buddy I was in 1/1 with at the beginning of the Iraq war that has since been in 5SF was telling me last year they were working on reorganizing back to readiness for a conflict with an adversary like China....

 

[pmclaine]

The army will pick up the slack as usual. Nothing different, move along.

If the Army does it needs to use Armor appropriately - Calvalry.

Marine useage has been to allow the Infantry to make the impossible possible.

Its Infantry support, sort of a different role from how the Army has thought about tank useage.

Reading in the article it seems that cheap drones and sensors have made big investment armor too vulnerable. Turkey smoked hundreds of Syrian tanks to put the exclamation point on the new normal.

Some sort of fast, protected, means of disrupting an enemies flanks or rear needs to be devised.

Guessing tanks may have to have an electronics package like aircraft to jam incoming threats, if they dont already.

I see more robots/drones becoming the norm.

Patton is weeping.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

They didn't have any at Carson under the 4 brigade structure when I was there that I was aware of but it's possible. I ran into some mlrs guys out there but don't think they were 4th id pretty sure they were 2id guys that came in for a calfx training. All the other manuveur and support units fired live. The mlrs did not. I asked a couple of the mlrs guys I ran into about the mlrs and were so excited to talk about it. I asked later if they had ever shot it for reals they looked down and said no haha too expensive.

So are mlrs standard heavy FA battalions then?

The whole Army has restructured since I was in.

It used to be that you had both heavy (3 battery) and light (2 battery) Battalions that supported the Division. A single Battery containing 9 launchers.

You did have a few separate batteries here and there directly supporting Infantry units, but there were 10 heavy battallions of active duty, and 2 heavy battallions of reserve unit MLRS at Ft.Sill,.... I don't know how many, but several heavy battallions in Korea as well.

I started out in a heavy battallion A Battery, 2/14 FA (3rd Inf Div) in Bamberg, GE during the Clinton years. We drew down to a single battery (A/76 FA) soon after I got there. In '96 3rd ID returned to CONUS and we became A/33 FA (1st Inf Div). I was in 3 different units, and never even had to change my address!

We live fired twice a year, but had to fire the reduced range practice rockets (RRPR). These had a range of 14 kilometers and had a couple hundred short steel pipes in them instead of the bomblets.

The M26 rocket (each launcher carried 12 rockets) had an unclassified range of 99km and contained a couple hundred bomblets about the size of your fist, but they were shape charges that were designed to penetrate armor from the top.

We also ha the Ballistic Anti-Tank rocket (BAT), that had a couple dozen laser guided munitions in them. These were designed to be released over the target and each munition would deploy wings, and look for a target and lock on to it. These munitions also would deconflict with one another so that if a target was already illuminated by another munition, then it would find another.

The ATACMS missle was a precision guided missle with an unclassified range of 300km. Each launcher could carry two of them. It was used against hardened strategic targets. It carried a warhead similar to the Tomahawk but of course didn't have the Tomahawk's stealth capabilities.

 

[MarinePMI]

Airfield seizure is owned by someone else.

In the Corps, hostile airfield seizure is still apart of SOC (Special Operations Capable) quals, that every MEU has to complete before every deployment. Unless things have changed radically, which I doubt.

 

[QuickNDirty]

Good thing Army Jerry isn't here. He'd be gloating on cloud nine. He's been begging for the demise of the Corps forever. Poor guy just can't stand that he didn't take a few more steps and walk past the Army recruiter.

 

[308pirate]

What branch does it fall under? In the army I think all rocket anything falls under Ada could be mistaken though

Field Artillery

 

[308pirate]

View attachment 7283726

LOL he's drunk

 

[hankpac]

the Marines have come a long way (Or fallen a long way) from when they were "Naval Infantry".
That mission was simply, when the boats got close enough to shore, to need to send some men to fight, they sent the Marines.
US Forces don't fight taht way anymore, apparently. It's all "Long Stand-off" Missile batteries, etc.
Even Army Infantry is becoming less relevant except as (huge) occupation forces and small team forces (SF-type). I served in a small-team unit (VN), but that was three (or 4) wars ago.

 

[Centuriator]

Actually...the role of a Marine in the age of sail was to provide ship-board security, protect the captain/officers from the crew, if necessary, etc. and in actions against hostile ships, to man the fighting tops and do their best to pick off officers and others on the opposing ship and then when they went yardarm-to-yardarm to join in the melee when the attacked the other ship. Then it just devolved into a hacking/slashing/stabbing/bashing mess after their long guns and sidearms were discharged. Very bloody affair.

Yes, they would also join the sailors in raiding parties ashore as well.

Anyone a fan of the Patrick O'Brian novels? GREAT stuff there. Makes you feel you are in the action.

 

[brianf]

if you look at our possible enemies in the next 10-20 years there is not one that will allow a landing craft with in 30 miles of a defended beach.

does anyone think china, russia, NK will allow a mass of ships just over the horizon to sit there and launch assault craft or hover craft.

if the mass of ships is allowed to line up and drop off it will be because the navy and air force will have beaten the defenses into submission by then.

99% sure there will never be another D-Day invasion again.

to much tech, too many sensors and too many cheap long range over the horizon weapons.

i think its 64 anti-ship missiles can overwhelm a carrier group with current protocol, how many can a amphib landing group handle?

if the marines were smart they would stay maritime naval support and focus on being like the 10th mountain or rangers. land inland to take over a airfield for the big guys.

it does nothing but spread the $ over another service and have more waste. let the army do tanks, navy do ships and airforce/ navy do planes. im sure we can get a better price on boots if the marines didnt have their own.

i love marines and they have the best song and uniform BY FAR.. contested beach landings are not gone forever, but in our current position treating them like army's little brother is not the best use of dollars.

 

[MarinePMI]

if you look at our possible enemies in the next 10-20 years there is not one that will allow a landing craft with in 30 miles of a defended beach.

does anyone think china, russia, NK will allow a mass of ships just over the horizon to sit there and launch assault craft or hover craft.

if the mass of ships is allowed to line up and drop off it will be because the navy and air force will have beaten the defenses into submission by then.

99% sure there will never be another D-Day invasion again.

to much tech, too many sensors and too many cheap long range over the horizon weapons.

i think its 64 anti-ship missiles can overwhelm a carrier group with current protocol, how many can a amphib landing group handle?

if the marines were smart they would stay maritime naval support and focus on being like the 10th mountain or rangers. land inland to take over a airfield for the big guys.

it does nothing but spread the $ over another service and have more waste. let the army do tanks, navy do ships and airforce/ navy do planes. im sure we can get a better price on boots if the marines didnt have their own.

i love marines and they have the best song and uniform BY FAR.. contested beach landings are not gone forever, but in our current position treating them like army's little brother is not the best use of dollars.

Did you read the article?

 

[brianf]

Tried but it didn’t come up on my phone...so I shit from the hip

So either I’m smarter than I think or I should keep my mouth shut lol

Prob the later as usual

 

[MarinePMI]

The article talks about Marines manning floating bases (AFSB platforms), as rapid response forces. The Afloat Forward Staging Bases are definitely a future reality, today. The first (the Chesty Puller) has already been deployed to replace the Ponce. And IIRC, there’s 9 more coming down the pike...warfare is changing as the world gets smaller and more crowded.

 

[TheBigCountry]

Get more FO’s and JTACs on the field. That is a force multiplier in of itself.

But doesn’t the Corps go through this every couple years? And then when a conflict comes up, units get re-activated?

btw, speaking of Corps, was digging in my garage doing some cleaning and found this sucker in some paperwork:

 

[MarinePMI]

USS Lewis B. Puller (ESB-3) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I forgot they’re called “ESB”’s now...

 

[pmclaine]

USS Lewis B. Puller (ESB-3) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I forgot they’re called “ESB”’s now...

Saw those before.

Thats one funky ship/concept.

I understand the Ponce was flat bottomed and a pukinator.

I hope they include some chines or Naval engineering to ensure its not a cork adrift at the folly of the waves.

 

[MarinePMI]

Saw those before.

Thats one funky ship/concept.

I understand the Ponce was flat bottomed and a pukinator.

I hope they include some chines or Naval engineering to ensure its not a cork adrift at the folly of the waves.

Nah, the floating cork award still goes to the JHSV when wind drifting; makes even a lot of seasoned sea legs turn a little green.

 

[EN2722]

I’m not sure if you’re tracking but 8th Marines is an infantry regiment in Camp Lejeune...NOT a tank or artillery regiment.

Damn Frank (@lowlight ), they're disbanding 8th Marines(!?!?!?!)...WTF?

The Corps is axing all of its tank battalions and cutting grunt units

As part of Commandant of the Marine Corps Gen. David Berger’s plan to redesign the force to confront China and other peer adversaries by 2030, the Marines are axing all three of its tank battalions, and chucking out all law enforcement battalions and bridging companies, according to a news...

www.marinecorpstimes.com

 

[EN2722]

For all that need an education on what’s going on here you go.

The problem is we got our teeth kicked in for the better part of 15 years fighting two wars. There’s a ton of oxygen thief’s roaming around the Marine Corps....time to find another job bruh! Thanks for sucking!

If you where that 2 or 3 deployment E-3 or E-4 with two NJPs, I really do not care what you have to say. The Marine Corps that you knew is not even close to being the same as it is today. But thanks for your service. ??

 

[EN2722]

SOC quals went away in 2004-2005 when DET 1 evolved into MARSOC. The recon community lost the ability to make any MEU “SOC” qualified...

In the Corps, hostile airfield seizure is still apart of SOC (Special Operations Capable) quals, that every MEU has to complete before every deployment. Unless things have changed radically, which I doubt.

 

[MarinePMI]

SOC quals went away in 2004-2005 when DET 1 evolved into MARSOC. The recon community lost the ability to make any MEU “SOC” qualified...

Bro, did you even READ the article?