Vibra-tite vs. loctite

[9245]

My new scope and mount is set to arrive tomorrow and the first thing I plan to do is re torque my rail and then get it mounted and thread lock everything, and possibly even thread lock the turret screws (one review showed that they might come loose, but that may have been a one off). My question though is which thread locker should I use, at first I was just planning on blue loctite but now I have discovered a new (to me) product called vibra-tite and it looks like it may have some advantages over loctite. What do you think? Is blue loctite enough or should I find some vibra-tite? If so which kind?

On a related question, the scope rings require 18 inch pounds of pressure but I had a hell of a time finding a torque wrench or driver that would actually do 18 inch pounds, all I saw were marked in 5 inch pound increments so that I could have done 15 or 20 but not 18. Finally out of frustration I just bought an old school beam style torque wrench because I can eyeball 18 (it is marked in increments of 10 with hash marks every 2.5 and also in newton meters and 2 NM is damn close to 18 inch pounds). Are their any issues using the beam style over the more modern click style?

 

[Clayman]

I have used both on different things. Both have worked without issue.

I generally use vibra tite vc3 now as I have a bottle and it is ready to use faster. I also like that it is reusable.

I use a wheeler fat wrench. You can adjust it 1 inch lb at a time.

 

[9245]

I have used both on different things. Both have worked without issue.

I generally use vibra tite vc3 now as I have a bottle and it is ready to use faster. I also like that it is reusable.

I use a wheeler fat wrench. You can adjust it 1 inch lb at a time.

I had looked at the wheeler (and just did again) but unless I’m missing something terribly obvious it looks like a 5 inch pound increment, per the picture on their website.

Is there something that I am not seeing?

 

[wyve]

I had looked at the wheeler (and just did again) but unless I’m missing something terribly obvious it looks like a 5 inch pound increment, per the picture on their website.

View attachment 8504865

Is there something that I am not seeing?

The wrench doesn't jump 5 increments. You spin the wheel on the bottom and you just stop when you hit what you want. Rough example: Do one rotation of the adjustment wheel after hitting X, to be X+1. If that makes sense.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

On the FAT Wrench, the version/generation that I have, the indicator bar spans 5 in/lbs with the top of the bar used as the indicator for the desired setting. If I wanted 18 in/lbs I spin it up so that the 15 in/lb mark hits in about the middle of the bar so it'd be 17.5-18 lbs. That being said the accuracy tolerance on most torque wrenches is such that you could be +/- the indicated setting anyway so I wouldn't get too wrapped around the axle about it.

 

[Arc Light]

First, don't use thread locker on the turret screws or the scope rings. It isn't needed if you tighten them to the recommended torque specs, which isn't a lot (something like 5 INCH-lbs for the turret screws). Second, 15 inch-lbs is all I have ever needed to secure the ring tops and never had a scope move. Degrease everything, including the scope tube with 90%+ alcohol and you shouldn't have issues. I would use low or medium strength thread locker (purple or blue) on your base screws, however.

I am ultra OCD about torque specs and proper application in all the projects I work on. The Fat Wrench is not bad for a cheap torque driver. I've tested it on my torque analyzer and it is within the calibration specs included with the tool, surprisingly. Of course, that is just a sample of 1. But as you discovered, the adjustments are too coarse for precise work. If you want a high-quality torque driver, with 0.5 in-lbs increments, it is going to cost you a lot more.

 

[msgriff]

My only concern with blue Loctite has been that they state a minimum fastener diameter of 6mm (1/4"). Everyone, including me, has used it with much smaller fasteners without issues, and many manufactures say it's OK with their rings/mounts, but Loctite recommends purple for those sizes. Vibratite VC3 doesn't have a minimum size spec, but I've found that it's easy to over-apply with the small screws, which can create it's own issues.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

I've never had an issue using blue threadlocker with #6 and #8 fasteners either but I have had the fasteners with purple threadlocker back out over time, it's just not as strong for firearms application in my experience. Within the last year or so though, I've been finding myself using Permatex Orange gel for just about everything that requires threadlocker. The gel is easier to dispense than liquid blue and I can get just the right dab on a fastener, it also holds better than blue, and can still be removed with handtools.

 

[Kiba]

You can't just go by color with loctite, you have to go by number... There are multiple versions of blue, red, and green, along with yellow, black, and purple, each differing in strength, viscosity, applicable thread diameter range, temperature range, oil resistance, and need for a primer or activator. And to make things more confusing there are multiple green retaining compounds for non-threaded applications like bushings and sleeves as well as multiple green thread lockers for threaded parts.

That's why going by color alone isn't enough, as a certain part number of blue loctite might not be correct for your application but another part number that's also blue can be perfect for your application.

People often just go by blue and red (typically 242 & 271) because they're the 2 most commonly available flavors at your typical automotive or hardware store, and as noted by @msgriff above, loctite doesn't recommend the medium strength thixotropic 242 for small diameter fasteners <6mm/0.250" like you would typically find on optic mounts. 271 being lower viscosity works on small diameter fasteners but the high breakaway torque of 271 can often shear the screw or strip the head on small diameter fasteners unless you apply heat first.

For small diameter fasteners without overly long thread engagement that you want to stay put, medium to medium-high strength loctite 290 or the oil resistant 294 version are great. They can be applied before assembly as normal, but are also low viscosity and wicking and can be applied to the exposed end of the fastener after assembly if it is accessible. Both 290 and 294 hold very well on small diameter fine thread screws like on ring caps and scope bases, but they're not so hard to remove you typically need heat or risk breaking the screw or stripping the screw head when removing them unless the screw is very small or has a very long thread engagement and surface area for the thread locker to bond to.

For small diameter screws that are prone to stripping or shearing from a too strong thread locker or have a lot of surface area because of a very long thread engagement, 220 works well, much better than 222 in my experience. It's another low viscosity version that wicks and can be applied either before or after assembly.

Similar recommendations go for vibra-tite. 111 is the choice for low strength for small diameter fasteners, 150 for medium strength small diameter, and 131/132/140/141 for high strength. For the gummy adjustable stuff, the VC series works well, the difference being what solvent base is used, as for applications going into plastic you need to choose the appropriate solvent that won't attack the base material. For general use on metallic parts where you don't have to worry about base solvent plastic compatibility issues VC3 is the least expensive and the most available.

As for what to use on your rings... Up to you. If the part was designed correctly and the screw is torqued properly to begin with and not used in an environment with high vibration you shouldn't need any thread locker, but it's certainly reassuring to use it. I use a lot of loctite 290/294 on small diameter fasteners and it always holds well (occasionally too well on long thread engagement screws and needs heat to remove.) For long thread engagement small diameter stuff I use 220 with very good results. If it's something I probably won't be removing frequently or gets buried or inaccessible under other parts I'll still use 290/294/220, but lately I've been using more vibra tite VC3 on hardware that remains accessible or may get frequently swapped; the VC3 might not "lock" the screw like 220/290/294, but it offers easy disassembly and will help keep a screw from vibrating or walking out.

 

[fedupflyer]

First, don't use thread locker on the turret screws or the scope rings. It isn't needed if you tighten them to the recommended torque specs, which isn't a lot (something like 5 INCH-lbs for the turret screws).

Um yeah...no.

When it comes to firearms, you need to use some sort of thread locker on about every screw.
I personally have had scope ring scope back out after they were degreased and properly torqued. Luckily, I caught the issue before it was an issue.

ADM includes a small container of Vibra-tite to use on their mounts which includes the scope rings.
IIRC, they will only warranty the scope mount if you use Vibra-tite.

 

[Edsel]

You can't just go by color with loctite, you have to go by number... There are multiple versions of blue, red, and green, along with yellow, black, and purple, each differing in strength, viscosity, applicable thread diameter range, temperature range, oil resistance, and need for a primer or activator. And to make things more confusing there are multiple green retaining compounds for non-threaded applications like bushings and sleeves as well as multiple green thread lockers for threaded parts.

That's why going by color alone isn't enough, as a certain part number of blue loctite might not be correct for your application but another part number that's also blue can be perfect for your application.

People often just go by blue and red (typically 242 & 271) because they're the 2 most commonly available flavors at your typical automotive or hardware store, and as noted by @msgriff above, loctite doesn't recommend the medium strength thixotropic 242 for small diameter fasteners <6mm/0.250" like you would typically find on optic mounts. 271 being lower viscosity works on small diameter fasteners but the high breakaway torque of 271 can often shear the screw or strip the head on small diameter fasteners unless you apply heat first.

For small diameter fasteners without overly long thread engagement that you want to stay put, medium to medium-high strength loctite 290 or the oil resistant 294 version are great. They can be applied before assembly as normal, but are also low viscosity and wicking and can be applied to the exposed end of the fastener after assembly if it is accessible. Both 290 and 294 hold very well on small diameter fine thread screws like on ring caps and scope bases, but they're not so hard to remove you typically need heat or risk breaking the screw or stripping the screw head when removing them unless the screw is very small or has a very long thread engagement and surface area for the thread locker to bond to.

For small diameter screws that are prone to stripping or shearing from a too strong thread locker or have a lot of surface area because of a very long thread engagement, 220 works well, much better than 222 in my experience. It's another low viscosity version that wicks and can be applied either before or after assembly.

Similar recommendations go for vibra-tite. 111 is the choice for low strength for small diameter fasteners, 150 for medium strength small diameter, and 131/132/140/141 for high strength. For the gummy adjustable stuff, the VC series works well, the difference being what solvent base is used, as for applications going into plastic you need to choose the appropriate solvent that won't attack the base material. For general use on metallic parts where you don't have to worry about base solvent plastic compatibility issues VC3 is the least expensive and the most available.

As for what to use on your rings... Up to you. If the part was designed correctly and the screw is torqued properly to begin with and not used in an environment with high vibration you shouldn't need any thread locker, but it's certainly reassuring to use it. I use a lot of loctite 290/294 on small diameter fasteners and it always holds well (occasionally too well on long thread engagement screws and needs heat to remove.) For long thread engagement small diameter stuff I use 220 with very good results. If it's something I probably won't be removing frequently or gets buried or inaccessible under other parts I'll still use 290/294/220, but lately I've been using more vibra tite VC3 on hardware that remains accessible or may get frequently swapped; the VC3 might not "lock" the screw like 220/290/294, but it offers easy disassembly and will help keep a screw from vibrating or walking out.

How about 222MS?

 

[Kiba]

How about 222MS?

IIRC 222MS is just 222 with additional testing and certification to a Mil spec, but I’d have to check in with our Henkel rep to confirm… it’s been years since we did a lot of thread locker research and lab testing for a certain program we had.

If you look at the TDS for 222, 222MS, and 220, you’ll see that 220 has a higher prevailing and breakaway torque than 222 or 222MS. 222/222MS is very low strength stuff in my experience, and I would only use it on really tiny, soft fasteners (think something like 00-96, 0-80, 1-72, 2-56, etc) or any small fastener that is very easy to strip or shear when removing with any stronger threadlocker. 220 is probably fine for any ring or mount related screw IMO, but I like the added holding power of 290/294, unless as I mentioned the thread engagement length is excessively long providing a large bond area or the screws are soft and prone to shearing or the heads stripping if the breakaway torque of the threadlocker is too high, in which case I use 220.

 

[308pirate]

My new scope and mount is set to arrive tomorrow and the first thing I plan to do is re torque my rail and then get it mounted and thread lock everything, and possibly even thread lock the turret screws (one review showed that they might come loose, but that may have been a one off). My question though is which thread locker should I use, at first I was just planning on blue loctite but now I have discovered a new (to me) product called vibra-tite and it looks like it may have some advantages over loctite. What do you think? Is blue loctite enough or should I find some vibra-tite? If so which kind?

On a related question, the scope rings require 18 inch pounds of pressure but I had a hell of a time finding a torque wrench or driver that would actually do 18 inch pounds, all I saw were marked in 5 inch pound increments so that I could have done 15 or 20 but not 18. Finally out of frustration I just bought an old school beam style torque wrench because I can eyeball 18 (it is marked in increments of 10 with hash marks every 2.5 and also in newton meters and 2 NM is damn close to 18 inch pounds). Are their any issues using the beam style over the more modern click style?

Medium strength liquid thread locker (Permatex or Loctite, doesn't matter) works perfectly fine. Vibra Tite is a pain in the ass to use and provides zero benefits in an application in which there is literally almost no vibration.

There are no issues using a beam-style wrench as long as it isn't a piece of shit made in china.

But while you're at it, you might want to pick up a slightly better tool for the job:

Amazon.com

Or something similar from CDI

 

[Edsel]

IIRC 222MS is just 222 with additional testing and certification to a Mil spec, but I’d have to check in with our Henkel rep to confirm… it’s been years since we did a lot of thread locker research and lab testing for a certain program we had.

If you look at the TDS for 222, 222MS, and 220, you’ll see that 220 has a higher prevailing and breakaway torque than 222 or 222MS. 222/222MS is very low strength stuff in my experience, and I would only use it on really tiny, soft fasteners (think something like 00-96, 0-80, 1-72, 2-56, etc) or any small fastener that is very easy to strip or shear when removing with any stronger threadlocker. 220 is probably fine for any ring or mount related screw IMO, but I like the added holding power of 290/294, unless as I mentioned the thread engagement length is excessively long providing a large bond area or the screws are soft and prone to shearing or the heads stripping if the breakaway torque of the threadlocker is too high, in which case I use 220.

Good to know.

For some reason, I overlooked 220 and ended up with 222MS…

 

[Holliday]

I use Vibra tite for things I want to take on and off easily that might loosen but are not critical. Especially small screws on my expensive folding knives or little adjustment screws on scope levels.

I use Loctite brand Loctite on anything else that I really needs to stay put like muzzle devices (red)or scope rails (blue). I have found that using loctite sparingly provides the best results with the least mess and peripheral contamination.

I do not use Loctite as any type of a bedding compound, like some people do. For scope rails that’s a job for epoxy. Rosen for rings but I have never needed this.

I personally don’t find the need to use them on my scope ring screws .

 

[Kiba]

I do not use Loctite as any type of a bedding compound, like some people do. For scope rails that’s a job for epoxy.

A pet peeve of mine as well.

Thread locker is meant for threaded parts, retaining compound is meant for smooth parts like bushings, bearings, and sleeves as long as it’s a press fit to minimal gap situation. If you’re going to use Loctite to bed a rail you should be using one of the gap filling retaining compounds, not a thread locker-- but even Henkel will point out that retaining compounds are meant for *cylindrical* parts that are slip fit to press fit—i.e. bushings, sleeves, bearings that are installed into a smooth bore hole in a plate or slipped or pressed over a shaft. It’s really not the right product for the job of bedding a rail. Also, I’m still irritated about having to heat and scrape a bunch of Loctite off a used stainless action I bought years ago where someone glopped tons of Loctite between the somewhat poor fitting rail and the action to “bed” it. Didn’t hold the rail on worth a damn, some areas were still uncured and gummy, and where it did cure it took me a long time to clean all the cured residue off without messing up the light bead blast finish.

As you mentioned a 2 part epoxy with good compressive and shear strength is the correct choice if you intend to bed the rail to the action. Not a real concern on most aftermarket actions today with separate rails where the OD and shape of the action is held to a much higher standard, but it can be an issue on older Remington actions where the rail might not sit down true because the action isn't quite up to snuff.

 

[E. Bryant]

Vibra-tite is good stuff for use with plastic. There is still the need to pick the correct version to ensure compatibility between the solvent and the parent resin, but I appreciate having all the options.

For metal-to-metal threaded joints, I prefer using the correct Loctite project. For everything except suppressor muzzle devices, lower strength is usually better.

With regards to torque devices, go be poor somewhere else:

Or just use Fix-It sticks, which is what I use when not flexing on the poors.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Um yeah...no.

When it comes to firearms, you need to use some sort of thread locker on about every screw.
I personally have had scope ring scope back out after they were degreased and properly torqued. Luckily, I caught the issue before it was an issue.

ADM includes a small container of Vibra-tite to use on their mounts which includes the scope rings.
IIRC, they will only warranty the scope mount if you use Vibra-tite.

Uh no.

There is zero reason to threadlock scope ring caps. If your having issues it's from either buying cheap shit or improper installation.

Adm mounts are shit by the way.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

 

[glock24]

Which one is easier to clean off scope tubes about six months later when you go to sell it?

 

[E. Bryant]

Which one is easier to clean off scope tubes about six months later when you go to sell it?

Applying threadlocker to the scope tube? Is this an advanced technique that is only understood by PRS shooters?

 

[glock24]

I always seem to get a few dribbles down the side of the tube while applying it to the ring screws.

 

[carbonbased]

Applying threadlocker to the scope tube? Is this an advanced technique that is only understood by PRS shooters?

Next up: red threadlocker on…lens hood threads.

 

[lariat]

Just use aluminum screws on rings when mounting the scope. Make sure everything is super clean. Galling is the best loctite ever.

@E. Bryant, is that thing even calibrated? Engineer types have all the cool tools.

In all seriousness, Loc-tite is my vote.

 

[Edsel]

@E. Bryant, is that thing even calibrated? Engineer types have all the cool tools.

Those with the signed NIST certificates cost a whole lot more.

CDI submits them in batches…

That model, despite the price - is not sold with a NIST certificate.

It actually has the same innards as a Taiwanese GearWrench.

 

[Baron23]

using loctite sparingly provides the best results

This ^^. For some reason, people feel they need to soak fasteners in this stuff. Just a little bit does it. Same with anti-seize.

 

[Edsel]

This ^^. For some reason, people feel they need to soak fasteners in this stuff. Just a little bit does it. Same with anti-seize.

 

[Numenur]

I've been using Vibratite for everything and have had good luck. Used it for two pistol mounted RDS that each have a 2000-4000 rounds on them so far without issue. Also used it for the CROM on my 1301 - it only has a couple hundred rounds so far but nothing has loosened.

I apply it to clean parts, let it dry, then torque to spec.