vintage but not sure exactly what model

[mrbig]

pic of my Grandfathers half brother ,,if yall could help me date the pic and the exact model of Rifle I would be HAPPY,

 

[buffalowinter]

Based on the 1903 Springfield rifle and assuming the flag was current at the time of the photo, this picture was taken between July 4, 1908 and July 3, 1912 when there were 46 states. You can tell by the staggered pattern of the stars. The uniform also corresponds to this time period, although he is wearing the "stand up, fall down" collar in a strange fashion.

 

[pmclaine]

Probably a low number '03 also.

They didn't have the internet back than and he had no idea that he was holding a veritable death trap in his hands.

Young looking dude. Well attired with his wrist watch.

I don't see any stock reinforcing bolts so its an early 03, looks like high hump handguard.

Love looking at the details in these pictures. Buff is a much better student of the era. Digging the Montana peak campaign cover. I kind of preferred the one they wore just previous to it though with the center crease. The Montana peak does shed water better though. I put the front curl on so that the water will drain toward the back not all over whatever I look down upon.



Check out the material on the flag, like a thin woven cotton, probably wouldn't last to long if it were outdoors but probably snapped nicely in the lightest breeze.

Interesting to think how big the world was when that soldier was serving.

 

[sandwarrior]

Pretty amazing to see our grandfather's when they were young. Back before helmets when campaign hats we're worn. The "Montana Peak" blocking was standard at the time, why I don't know as many maintained the cavalry or "association" block of a crease down the center with the sides of the crown pushed in. "Association" was a style of hat block.

Round crown with a pinched front was also extremely popular at the time.

 

[Dan M]

The beveled edge of the left pocket corner is found on the M1918 shirt...the collar IS being worn oddly, it must be tucked in around the neck because that shirt did NOT have a stand up collar.

Great photo.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Considering that wrist watches did not really come into vogue until WW1, this is a fascinating photograph!

Very few people (and most of them military) wore wristwatches prior to WW1. They existed, primarily in Europe where companies like Mappin and Webb were making watches for, mainly, well-heeled officers. For this young man to be wearing a wristwatch in the period before WW1... is pretty cool.

Beautiful picture. Mind if I circulate this to some historian friends?

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[pmclaine]

Good gig line from blouse to breeches but his belt buckle is off line.

Gimme ten!

 

[pmclaine]

I wonder if the collar is worn the way it is because he was in processing, just came from the barber where he had his collar tucked to keep hair out, and immediately fell into the photo area where they tossed him an 03 and a cover and said "Give us your best I love the Army face Soldier!"

Note the fresh haircut.

Someone forgot to tell him to straighten out his collar but being pressed for time no one cared.

When you see USMC boot camp blues photos realize that boot Marine is wearing basically a dickie, fake blues front and the cover is one from the table that kind of fits.

At least this soldier had matching trou....

 

[mrbig]

Considering that wrist watches did not really come into vogue until WW1, this is a fascinating photograph!

Very few people (and most of them military) wore wristwatches prior to WW1. They existed, primarily in Europe where companies like Mappin and Webb were making watches for, mainly, well-heeled officers. For this young man to be wearing a wristwatch in the period before WW1... is pretty cool.

Beautiful picture. Mind if I circulate this to some historian friends?

Cheers,

Sirhr

no sir I dont mind,,,,last name would be Leonard and from West By God Virginia,,,,,they migrated west to Tn after WWII

 

[mrbig]

I cant find any pics of Grandpa Leonard in uniform but have a couple things he brought back from WWII,,,,

 

[mrbig]

did find some pics of Grandpa on Momma`s side that she made copys for all the grandkids when he passed in `06,, he was a MAN..

 

[sirhrmechanic]

So the top picture is Raymond H. Leonard's half-brother?

And definitely last-named Leonard? The half-brother same father...

I'll see what I can come up with!

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[mrbig]

So the top picture is Raymond H. Leonard's half-brother?

And definitely last-named Leonard? The half-brother same father...

I'll see what I can come up with!

Cheers,

Sirhr

correct Sir

 

[sirhrmechanic]

In case you think I forgot about this....

I came up with this image today....

Note the similarity?

Note that even the floor is the same. So it's same location, likely same time.

Working on finding more on this image....

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Here is a detail photo of his bayonet, BTW.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Identified as Doughboy Charles Mowrey, September 4, 1917.

More coming, I hope.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[sirhrmechanic]

I think that the bayonet is identified as an M1905 Bayonet if that makes sense?

Also, there are several Charles Mowery's listed in Ancestry.com's military archives, but I'm not a subscriber. I 'think' the transport records show his unit and where/when he was shipped. Which probably give a clue as to the OP's photo above.... since clearly the photos were taken at the same time.

Given the date, there is a chance that the watches they were wearing were the snazzy new Hamilton military watches that troops were getting. Thus my thoughts above that it may post-date 1912.

Still digging... Hit gold tonite with that second image!

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[sirhrmechanic]

This link will take anyone who is an Ancestry.com member to the page where they can open the records... any ancestry.com members here?

https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin...0584978&o_sch=Affiliate External&noredir=true

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[mrbig]

that sure looks like it could have been the same day,,,,Daddy cant remember stuff real good so I asked Momma about everything she knew about this picture and she said she would get back to me on it,,I think she is a paying member at ancestory dot com and I can ask her to open the link..

thanx it looks like you are on a hot trail for sure,,

 

[mrbig]

she said his name was Charles Leonard,,and that he had 3 full brothers and sisters and then there was 7 brothers and sisters in the 2nd bunch that Grandpa Leonard was in for a total of 11 and that he could have been 20+ years older than Grandpa was which would put him being born right around 1900 +/- a couple years,,

I should have just ask her first I guess but didnt think about it,,Momma and Daddy divorced around 1975,,

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Ran into a brick wall on the second picture... the former owner of the picture sold it several years ago. And only had the name and date on the back. Fortunate that he named the file after the notes on the back! Thus we can get a date. But he had no other data...

He thought that the picture may have been taken in a photo studio.... and I know that most big bases in WW1 and WW2 had studios set up around them for recent graduates of basic (or new arrivals to assignments) could get a fancy "Hey Mom and Dad" picture taken. That may explain the out-of-date flag?

But until another picture or two shows up... I think we have to go with at least the date being right... unless we can find out where Charles Mowery was stationed on that date... which may be possible with a military records search.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[pmclaine]

I'm thinking there is about ten year difference in uniforms.

Same room though.

Might be on a base or could be a photo studio outside a big base.

The rifle, bayonet, belt are a prop used or not used as the soldier desires.

 

[mrbig]

Momma is gonna see if she can find out when Charles Leonard joined the Army,,she said he died at 43 years of age from liver and kidney problems they thought were caused by chemical warfare in WWI.

I will let yall know what she finds out,,

 

[sirhrmechanic]

I'm thinking there is about ten year difference in uniforms.

.

I think there may be a good explanation for that, however, which is that in 1917, there was a shortage of everything! The U.S. had gone from isolationist to ramped up for sending hundreds of thousands of soldiers overseas in months. If the Army had it in a warehouse, storage drum, closet or barracks... it was dusted off and used. Add in that, at the time, regiments and units were still 'local' in nature so that a Pennsylvania unit might have snazzy new uniforms where a Colorado unit might have something left over from the Spanish American War. The industrial ramp-up may actually have been faster in WW1 than in WW2... and remember that at the beginning of WW2, soldiers were still drilling with WW1 uniforms... and some eating WW1 rations!

So not sure we can read too much into uniform differences...

I'd also argue that the photography quality and exposure, etc. seems to indicate that the pictures were taken, if not the same day, at least very close together. And look at things like the Tassles on the flag and drape? The background has not moved one bit. The format of the photo (and the quality of the lighting, emlusion, etc.) are all virtually identical. Slightly different camera angle. But, really, these can't have been taken far apart in time. Days, certainly. Weeks, perhaps. Months... doubt it. Years... no chance!

The watch still puzzles me, though. Unless it, too, was a prop. Like "Hey mom and dad, I have the best of everything." Really, wristwatches were a very big deal c. WW1. Even as late as 1917. So perhaps it was a prop as well?

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[mrbig]

the white line on the side of the stock on the rifle forward of the sling looks the exact same in both pictures,,I hope Momma comes back with a date ,,she is very into the ancestory thing and I bet she can find out when he joined up,,

 

[pmclaine]

I think there may be a good explanation for that, however, which is that in 1917, there was a shortage of everything! The U.S. had gone from isolationist to ramped up for sending hundreds of thousands of soldiers overseas in months. If the Army had it in a warehouse, storage drum, closet or barracks... it was dusted off and used. Add in that, at the time, regiments and units were still 'local' in nature so that a Pennsylvania unit might have snazzy new uniforms where a Colorado unit might have something left over from the Spanish American War. The industrial ramp-up may actually have been faster in WW1 than in WW2... and remember that at the beginning of WW2, soldiers were still drilling with WW1 uniforms... and some eating WW1 rations!

So not sure we can read too much into uniform differences...

I'd also argue that the photography quality and exposure, etc. seems to indicate that the pictures were taken, if not the same day, at least very close together. And look at things like the Tassles on the flag and drape? The background has not moved one bit. The format of the photo (and the quality of the lighting, emlusion, etc.) are all virtually identical. Slightly different camera angle. But, really, these can't have been taken far apart in time. Days, certainly. Weeks, perhaps. Months... doubt it. Years... no chance!

The watch still puzzles me, though. Unless it, too, was a prop. Like "Hey mom and dad, I have the best of everything." Really, wristwatches were a very big deal c. WW1. Even as late as 1917. So perhaps it was a prop as well?

Cheers,

Sirhr

Both are wearing a wrist watch......

 

[pmclaine]

the white line on the side of the stock on the rifle forward of the sling looks the exact same in both pictures,,I hope Momma comes back with a date ,,she is very into the ancestory thing and I bet she can find out when he joined up,,

The white line is the spring clip to hold the fron barrel band/handguard in place.

 

[mrbig]

Momma emailed me this about my great uncle Charles Leonard in the first picture,,

Maryland Military Men, 1917-1919
Name: Charles H Leonard
Gender: Male
Race: White
Age: 18
Birth Date: 1 Mar 1899
Birth Place: Cumberland, MD.
Residence Place: 4 Spring St., Cumberland, Allegany Co.
Military Year: 1917-1919
Military Place: Maryland, USA
Comments: NA 6/17/18 pvt, 524 Laundry Co, Hon disch 7/29/19, Overseas
9/1/18 to 7/22/19

 

[pmclaine]

I'm in agreement that the "props" - Campaign cover, watch, rifle are probably all the same.

The soldier in the summer khaki uniform added the garrison belt with bayonet prop.

In the real world outside the photography studio the bayonet would be hung on a cartridge belt.

Its a part of American history for soldiers to "pose" for a photo.

Most of those Civil War individual carte viste with the huge Arkansa Toothpick carried on the waist belt with three pistols were using props.

This is a good invest.

Has anyone done done a Google image search, perhaps of just the background to see what comes up?

 

[mrbig]

she just called and said he enlisted June 17,1918...10 months after the Charles Mowery picture,,

 

[sirhrmechanic]

^^^ Yup, PM... I tried the google image search.

Actually, though, the way I found the second picture was a text search. Something like "Doughboy holding rifle in front of flag." Got about 1000 images... but scrolled down and when the second picture came into view... I clicked on it. Nothing else even close.

Another reason I think it was a studio picture vs. an 'official' photo.

And your point about the cartridge belt is right on, too. I looked at a lot of pictures of uniforms in the process... and none had a bayonet hanging that way.

Great info Mr. Big on your Grand-uncle-ish... family member!

Given the dates... seems like the photo could be taken around the time of his basic training.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[mrbig]

thanx for the help everybody,,I was curious as to whether he was actually sent over in the War or if the picture was between the Wars..the ancestory link made me think to get Momma to look into it as she has her side of the family tree way back 400 years or some crap,,after I thought to ask her I was pretty sure we would get some answers ,,and now I know
thanx guys

 

[mrbig]

now that Momma is digging around and looking she said that another of Grandpa Leonards half brothers which would be Charles Leonards full brother was in WWI also and he fought in the Meuse-Argonne Offensive, a
battle in the Argonne forest.

I know very little about WWI but she says that battle was supposed to be super bad,,this may lead me into studying up on WWI more and getting a better handle on what actually happened back then,,

Ernest Leonards info

Ohio Military Men 1917-1918
Name: Ernest E. Leonard
Serial Number: 1520398
Race: White
Residence: 496 Ohio St., Akron, Oh.
Enlistment Division: National Guard
Enlistment Location: Akron, O.
Enlistment Date: 20 Jun 1916
Birth Place: Connellsville, PA.
Birth Date / Age: 21 4/12 Years
Assigns Comment: Co B 8 Infantry ONG (Co B 146 Infantry) to Discharge
Private, first class 1 Aug 1917; Corporal 5 Nov 1917. Ypres-Lys;
Meuse-Argonne; Defensive Sector. American Expeditionary Forces 15 June
1918 to 31 March 1919. Honorable discharge 13 Apr 1919.

 

[mrbig]

after reading about 30 minutes on the Meuse-Argonne Offensive I really feel embarrassed that I didnt remember what that was and posted it on this site,,but learning that on top of both my Grandfathers kicking ass in WWII ,I also had 2 of my Grandpa Leonards older half brothers in the battle that ended WWI,,

I think the fact that the Leonard side came from Wales about 50 years earlier may have had a great effect on their decision to enlist and go back home to fight for the old home country and the new home country and I am convinced they would have been very dedicated warriors,,

from the Valor Citation Grandpa got for flying 50 missions as tailgunner wasnt the final count,,he wound up with 72 and they had to physically remove him from the plane and sent him home from battle fatigue,,from what I heard before he died in 1986 he would sleep in the plane and refused to get out,,he went nuts and if he had his way there would be no Germans left alive today,,,,he would trip out on occasion but most of the time he was as good a person as you ever met but if he snapped the best thing you could do was just sit with him in silence and just go along with whatever he said,,

I would give my left nut if my kids could have had about 20 years with him,,which is what I got,,


sorry for ranting and raving but all this new info means a lot to me even if it isnt that big a deal to some of the really bad spots some of yall have been in serving your country,,

over and out,,

 

[jetmd]

Thanks everyone for posting. This was some interesting reading.

 

[Foul Mike]

This has been a very interesting read. A lot of good information put out.
I will add that when I took Basic Training in Ft. Bliss TX in 1968 there was one evening when we came from the range and stood in line to get our pictures taken. No option, you were going to do it.
They had a Pro photographer there and we came up into the Day Room to stand tall and get our picture taken. We took off our fatigue shirts and an assistant to the photographer put us in the right sized Class A uniform jacket and hat for the photo op. A wipe with a washcloth used by all and in you went.
They then offered us the chance to buy a book of all present. I did not buy the book but a close friend did and I have been able to review it. Brought back a lot of memories.
It was a lot like a High School yearbook.
I am glad my friend bought one and lets me look at it as there are many in there that jog my memory that I had completely forgotten about.
That photo may well be something like that and you cannot take much from what he was wearing or what he holds and what is underneath as to clothing as to what was going on. Only what you see in the photo. FM