I've often wondered if going light was better for anyone than pouring on the weight like so many do. What are your thoughts Stray?This thread needs more pics!
My old vudoo back in her lightweight summer dress.
Going light for NRL22XView attachment 7374568
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Vudoo Gun Works V-22 Rimfire Bolt Action
- Thread starter RAVAGE88
- Start date
I love it. I’ve been running one on an impact for a while. I have been through a pile of manners stocks over time but wanted something heavier and picked up a foundation without ever seeing one in person. Now it’s hard to find my damn rifle at a match. Never owned a chassis.
Rick, the basics are that a 60 deg sear doesn't JUST hold the cocking piece to the rear...it also puts upward pressure (UN-relaxed) on the bolt at the same time.
This "problem" is much more pronounced on a sloppy factory action (IE Rem. 40X) and actually pushes the upper bolt locking lug (2 lug action) away from the action.
It is much less pronounced on a tight custom action (IE Vudoo V22 repeater), BUT the effect is still (potentially) there.
A 90 degree sear only holds the cocking piece straight back without the camming, upward push of a 60 degree sear...relaxed. (Theoretically anyway, I believe there will still be a small upward force).
A three lug bolt may also help with the upward force issue by moving the lugs of a 2 lug system to the sides, spreading this load out radially (also many other potential advantages of a three lug bolt...).
How much of this is theoretical vs. actual is debatable, but doing it all together removes a few more question marks from the "elusive accuracy quest".
HB
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Well it's too early to tell, August brings a NRL22 match and... NRL22X to Maine!
So exciting that we got the X Game in the NE.
She was recently a heavy mirror image of my Impact 308 match rifle, but the sling stages and unsupported positions were a pig wrestling match.
So we're both going on a diet.
My wobble is slightly worse with the light rifle, but not terrible, but the sling and unsupported already feels much easier.
I guess I've learned that NRL22 and Centerfire matches are just different games best played with different tools, mostly due to the recoil difference, and I don't need an identical trainer, but rather the right tool for the right game...
August will be a fun experiment either way!
Thanks for that. Great to hear u have the opportunity to shoot in the NE. Please keep us updated how it goesWell it's too early to tell, August brings a NRL22 match and... NRL22X to Maine!
So exciting that we got the X Game in the NE.
She was recently a heavy mirror image of my Impact 308 match rifle, but the sling stages and unsupported positions were a pig wrestling match.
So we're both going on a diet.
My wobble is slightly worse with the light rifle, but not terrible, but the sling and unsupported already feels much easier.
I guess I've learned that NRL22 and Centerfire matches are just different games best played with different tools, mostly due to the recoil difference, and I don't need an identical trainer, but rather the right tool for the right game...
August will be a fun experiment either way!
For me, more weight = "better". Less felt recoil and "wobble". I also have the opposite experience as posted above during off hand/sling stages. Yes, it's heavier but with more weight, the less "wobble" is transferred from my hand to the rifle. Almost like a dampener. Also, there's usually only one off hand stage per match and, for me, building a rifle around one specific COF that, for me, nullifies the advantages on all the other stages seems counter productive.
For reference my rifle is approx. 14.2 lbs.
Great shooting Krob! Any idea why those groups opened up a tad when using the can?50 and 100yd 6x5’s from tonight both suppressed and unsuppressed. Unsuppressed definitely did better over all, but suppressed is still good enough for the girls I go withDidn’t help I had AR’s blasting next to me in an indoor range
AVG group size unsuppressed 50yd target: 0.74moa with the smallest being 0.27moa
AVG group size unsuppressed 100yd target: 0.78moa with the smallest being 0.48moa
AVG group size suppressed 50yd target: 0.85moa with the smallest being 0.65moa
AVG group size suppressed 100yd target: 1.05moa with the smallest group being 0.71moa.
View attachment 7361210View attachment 7361211View attachment 7361212View attachment 7361213
Proof carbon fiber 18” barrel
Thunderbeast 22TD for the suppressed shots
Lapua Center X
aiax chassis
ZCO 5-27
Atlas PSR bipod
TT diamond single stage (for now)
Thanks man!!! As far as the groups opening up, it could be a slight change in barrel harmonics (though the smallest group I’ve ever shot ever at 100yds was shot with this rifle and can combo), or the fact that I was a little irritated by the fellas three benches down blasting away with braked AR’s on an indoor range. Everything else stayed constant as it was all shot in the same sitting.
If you have a can, it’s worth it to establish a reference of what to expect. Next time I go I think I’m gonna do 6x10’s (6groups 10rounds) with can and without to see how much more it opens up
Thanks @4Certain for the intel on the Mike Bush video and @Hellbender for your comments.
I am still not certain what is going on, i.e. the physics of the situation. Mike Bush mentioned two phenomena, drag and the vibrations created by the impact of the firing pin on the case head. I presume the drag is the drag on the firing pin and the situation is the classic physics problem of the motion of a mass with a spring and friction. With less drag less spring stiffness is required and less spring stiffness means less vibrations are generated. Also perhaps does less drag mean less lock time? But how does the upward force of a 60 deg trigger top sear on the bolt create drag? Is it because that force increases the friction between the top sear and the firing pin assembly? Also I would have thought the vibrations created by the impact of the firing pin on case head were small taters compared to the vibrations created by the energy released when the shot was fired.
I am still not certain what is going on, i.e. the physics of the situation. Mike Bush mentioned two phenomena, drag and the vibrations created by the impact of the firing pin on the case head. I presume the drag is the drag on the firing pin and the situation is the classic physics problem of the motion of a mass with a spring and friction. With less drag less spring stiffness is required and less spring stiffness means less vibrations are generated. Also perhaps does less drag mean less lock time? But how does the upward force of a 60 deg trigger top sear on the bolt create drag? Is it because that force increases the friction between the top sear and the firing pin assembly? Also I would have thought the vibrations created by the impact of the firing pin on case head were small taters compared to the vibrations created by the energy released when the shot was fired.
Yes sir if I ever rebarrel or buy another Vudoo I will not get it threaded it took my groups size down .150” at 50 yards on average
No one told me how bad it sucks to wait on your order. I went from a CZ Tacticool to Precision Trainer to Begara B14 R in the course of two years. Should have done the V22 to start. It’s kinda hard to justify till you realize how much damn fun precision rimfire is. After that it’s a easy choice if the cost is a limiting factor.
I have a ace barrel Ravage that should be shipping next week with a TT Diamond installed. I have a decent stash of good ammo but based on everyone’s results I ordered 1000rds of center X to test with the 6000 rds Eley and 5000 CCI standard ( for porch plinking) I already have. If the Center X shoots as well as I expect it I will skip the SK since the price difference isn’t that much.
I do have a small group of friends and we do a informal PRS shoot. They all shoot stock CZ455’s or Ruger PR. I believe they are going to make me dumb it down with some CCI blazer or Federal Auto Match. Seems like a sin to even type that. I guess since it’s my range as well that will make it sporting.
Mike please ship my baby LOL
I have a ace barrel Ravage that should be shipping next week with a TT Diamond installed. I have a decent stash of good ammo but based on everyone’s results I ordered 1000rds of center X to test with the 6000 rds Eley and 5000 CCI standard ( for porch plinking) I already have. If the Center X shoots as well as I expect it I will skip the SK since the price difference isn’t that much.
I do have a small group of friends and we do a informal PRS shoot. They all shoot stock CZ455’s or Ruger PR. I believe they are going to make me dumb it down with some CCI blazer or Federal Auto Match. Seems like a sin to even type that. I guess since it’s my range as well that will make it sporting.
Mike please ship my baby LOL
Good evening Rimfire Friends. I have a question for you.
I am not a long time bolt gun guy. I have a few but not with the history of most of you. I ventured more into the bolt guns in the last 15 years or so looking for more accuracy and simplicity than most of the autos brought with them. I have had my Vudoo V22 since Nov 2018. A great piece of equipment. (And YES it was well worth the wait.) (Waiting on my Vudoo Single Shot now... And thinking about what it will be like to wait for the Gen 3 with the fast twist barrel, if that one ever materializes! Ha!)
Here is my question: Do you remove your Bolt from your Bolt Gun when you transport it? If so, for what reason? If not, then why that choice?
As a long time gun person and engineer, I can come up with answers on both sides. I am curious what do you do and why?
One of my shooting buddies could not shoot a match the other day, because he left his removed bolt at home... Ugg. That is at least one reason why not to remove it... But I am curious. Why? Safety for the Gun and Bolt if bumped? Or what and why.
Thanks for your thoughts. 4Certain
I am not a long time bolt gun guy. I have a few but not with the history of most of you. I ventured more into the bolt guns in the last 15 years or so looking for more accuracy and simplicity than most of the autos brought with them. I have had my Vudoo V22 since Nov 2018. A great piece of equipment. (And YES it was well worth the wait.) (Waiting on my Vudoo Single Shot now... And thinking about what it will be like to wait for the Gen 3 with the fast twist barrel, if that one ever materializes! Ha!)
Here is my question: Do you remove your Bolt from your Bolt Gun when you transport it? If so, for what reason? If not, then why that choice?
As a long time gun person and engineer, I can come up with answers on both sides. I am curious what do you do and why?
One of my shooting buddies could not shoot a match the other day, because he left his removed bolt at home... Ugg. That is at least one reason why not to remove it... But I am curious. Why? Safety for the Gun and Bolt if bumped? Or what and why.
Thanks for your thoughts. 4Certain
I wrap the bolt in a soft cloth, and keep it in the case with the rifle. I do that for safety reasons, so I don't assume the rifle does not have a round in the chamber as I am setting up.
I hear you! My wife ordered hers late April, but she ordered extra aluminum mags which is holding up the whole shipment as it needs to ship as one unit on export. I am sure it will be worth the wait though.
Ok Vudooers, I have a NRL22X match coming up in late-August out to 500yds! 
I have the 20moa rail, and about 17 mils of dialable elevation in a Leica PRS scope with a 50y zero.
500y is @ 28 mils for me. And i don't want to dial to max at 17mils and try to hold 11mils, with wind and all outside my X-mas tree.
What moa rail should I get? Thinking the 30, but not sure about the 40...
Also, when you swap your rails, do you have a preferred method--do you locktite the screws?
What torque value on those rail screws are you using? I know those values are for dry threads! I once had a badger rail shoot loose on a Rem700, so I'm paranoid about non-integral scope rails.
TIA HIDE!
I have the 20moa rail, and about 17 mils of dialable elevation in a Leica PRS scope with a 50y zero.
500y is @ 28 mils for me. And i don't want to dial to max at 17mils and try to hold 11mils, with wind and all outside my X-mas tree.
What moa rail should I get? Thinking the 30, but not sure about the 40...
Also, when you swap your rails, do you have a preferred method--do you locktite the screws?
What torque value on those rail screws are you using? I know those values are for dry threads! I once had a badger rail shoot loose on a Rem700, so I'm paranoid about non-integral scope rails.
TIA HIDE!
Ok Vudooers, I have a NRL22X match coming up in late-August out to 500yds!
I have the 20moa rail, and about 17 mils of dialable elevation in a Leica PRS scope with a 50y zero.
500y is @ 28 mils for me. And i don't want to dial to max at 17mils and try to hold 11mils, with wind and all outside my X-mas tree.
What moa rail should I get? Thinking the 30, but not sure about the 40...
Also, when you swap your rails, do you have a preferred method--do you locktite the screws?
What torque value on those rail screws are you using? I know those values are for dry threads! I once had a badger rail shoot loose on a Rem700, so I'm paranoid about non-integral scope rails.
TIA HIDE!
I have a 40 MOA rail and 22.5 MILS of dial available and I still can't dial to 500. 425-435, depending on temps, is my max dial. I'd suggest a 50-60 MOA and you still need to check that you'll be able to zero it without bottoming out the erectors.
Edit: NX8 4.5-32 for reference. 50 MOA would be no. problem for me, 60 I would have to actually mount it and cross my fingers to see. It's too close to spec it w/o mounting it.
4C:
I always have the bolts on my rifles. My iron-clad rule is only to have ammunition in a rifle at the range when I am set up. For a repeater I load the mags at home and transport them separately. At my former range there was a fatality from a person pulling his rifle from his vehicle at the range. The rifle was in a soft case oriented so the muzzle was pointing at him when he was pulling it out. That, plus a chambered round, cocked bolt and the safety not engaged won him a Darwin award.
My carrying case is a little narrow so I like to remove it. I purchased a flashlight holster with a molle attachment and hooked it up right inside my case.
Holster for Nitecore Flashlights
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No. Bolt is in the gun unless it's being cleaned. Why? Because I have so much [expletive] to load up for range trips and matches that, if I don't consolidate stuff, something will be left behind. I cannot imagine "bumping" a firearm hard enough in transit to have any effect whatsoever on the bolt. Storing or transporting with the bolt removed is, to me, simply setting up the loss of said bolt.
As for the safety aspect, assuring an empty firearm: I started shooting at age seven, and my Army Airborne father taught me - forcefully - that the second thing you do upon picking up a gun is clear it (first thing, always, is point it in a safe direction*). For me, the risk of loss vastly outweights any safety enhancement from separating bolt from rifle.
* Anecdote: decades ago, I was in a "train the trainer" class for one of the NRA courses. Written test has question, "what is the first thing to do when you pick up a firearm?" So the class finishes test and the instructor starts going through the questions. He asks that question aloud, and a few people said, "point it in safe direction." Instructor says no, the answer is to insure the firearm is unloaded. Several people mumble some version of "bull." Instructor insists the "unloaded" answer is correct. So I said, "ok, let's do that." I stood and walked over to him; there was a rubber training gun on the table by his lectern. I picked it up, stuck the barrel in his belly, and mimed racking the slide. He changed his tune.
Thanks Jefe,
Gonna get a 40 and hopefully that'll keep me in my Tree at 500.
Or, considering an ERATAC adjustable mount... $$$
Gonna get a 40 and hopefully that'll keep me in my Tree at 500.
Or, considering an ERATAC adjustable mount... $$$
I prefer to keep my bolt wrapped in a rag in another zipped bag in my ammo box w/ my mags and suppressor. But it's mostly because the bolt handle pushes out the soft case and isn't as flat as I would like it and is exposed to possible damage in the right situation. But I also leave it in sometimes if I'm in a hurry.
Pretty much you can leave it in without worry.
Pretty much you can leave it in without worry.
Wedge Prism - Nightforce Optics
www.nightforceoptics.com
Sticker price may shock you but I predict to see A LOT of these on rimfire PRS rifles in the near future.
Very small taters, indeed, BUT many of these small taters may add up to a big tater.
No-one knows which one of these minuscule taters really matter.
So they try and mash all the taters they possibly can, so maybe they can win all the taters and get their belly full!
Taters....What's taters, Mr. Frodo??
Wedge Prism - Nightforce Optics
Sticker price may shock you but I predict to see A LOT of these on rimfire PRS rifles in the near future.
Looking forward to seeing what the shooters do on the loooong targets! Hoping to see some of these Prisms, CT, NF, etc.
Exciting times for rimfire matches.
I have the 40, and I run out around 440-450 of dial with a Nightforce NX8, I have heard that folks with 50 moa bases can still dial 25yards, and I believe that would get you to the big 500.
My case has a cutout for the bolt so I remove mine.
H
Several pages from Vaughn's "Rifle Accuracy Facts". You probability know this but in case not uppermost. And Vaughn does not justify the formula so take with a small tater.
Conclusion is taters do add up but not in an obvious way.
Good shooting, Rick
HB:
Several pages from Vaughn's "Rifle Accuracy Facts". You probability know this but in case not uppermost. And Vaughn does not justify the formula so take with a small tater.
Conclusion is taters do add up but not in an obvious way.
Good shooting, Rick
My Ballistic Program I use says you would need 100 MOA to go to 500 Yards. Quite a bit...
I just got my results back from the Lapua Testing Center. I believe my Rifle has about 3000 rounds through it. I had them test Midas+ and Center-X. The first day they focused mainly on Midas+ with only a little Center-X testing. I asked them about how I thought some Center-X might be doing equally well and they retested with Center-X more thoroughly the 2nd day of testing.
In general they said they found that 20" barrels did better than the 16-18" barrels and my Vudoo performed about the same as the other Vudoos they have tested. I guess nothing to write home about... A 6x5 is very different then doing 10 shots in a row is what I learned. My 10 shot groups at the testing center were a lot larger than I thought they'd be! I ended up ordering 2 cases of the Center-X xx...1282 lots, though the Center-X xx...1733 also performed very close.
I sent in my SK+ and my PMS as well.
50m
100m
In general they said they found that 20" barrels did better than the 16-18" barrels and my Vudoo performed about the same as the other Vudoos they have tested. I guess nothing to write home about... A 6x5 is very different then doing 10 shots in a row is what I learned. My 10 shot groups at the testing center were a lot larger than I thought they'd be! I ended up ordering 2 cases of the Center-X xx...1282 lots, though the Center-X xx...1733 also performed very close.
I sent in my SK+ and my PMS as well.
50m
| Ammo | # Shots | E-E | C-C (inches) | MOA | DHH - Mean |
| SK+ Standard Plus | 10 | 20.86 | 0.6002598425 | 1.048477077 | 4.57 |
| Pistol Match Special | 10 | 20.5 | 0.5860866142 | 1.023720623 | 6.85 |
| Midas+ 11_26555702235 | 10 | 15.06 | 0.3719133858 | 0.6496230999 | 3.88 |
| Midas+ 11_26555702235 | 10 | 19.52 | 0.547503937 | 0.9563280546 | 5.08 |
| Midas+ 13_26555702546 | 10 | 15.06 | 0.3719133858 | 0.6496230999 | 4.32 |
| Midas+ 13_26555702546 | 10 | 18.08 | 0.4908110236 | 0.8573022396 | 8.52 |
| Center-X 3_23555701733 | 10 | 14.64 | 0.3553779528 | 0.6207405705 | 2.7 |
| Center-X 3_23555701733 | 10 | 20.3 | 0.5782125984 | 1.009967038 | 7.49 |
| Center-X 3_23555701733 | 10 | 16.56 | 0.4309685039 | 0.7527749905 | 4.85 |
| Center-X 4_24555501282 | 10 | 20.56 | 0.5884488189 | 1.027846699 | 5.05 |
| Center-X 4_24555501282 | 10 | 14.7 | 0.3577401575 | 0.6248666461 | 4.09 |
| Center-X 4_24555501282 | 10 | 15.34 | 0.3829370079 | 0.6688781194 | 5.45 |
100m
| Ammo | # Shots | E-E | C-C (inches) | MOA | DHH - Mean |
| SK+ Standard Plus | 10 | 40.52 | 1.374275591 | 1.200227262 | 19.92 |
| Pistol Match Special | 10 | 50.22 | 1.756165354 | 1.533751708 | 10.46 |
| Midas+ 11_26555702235 | 10 | 31.3 | 1.011283465 | 0.8832071177 | 9.1 |
| Midas+ 11_26555702235 | 10 | 47.44 | 1.646716535 | 1.438164289 | 13.56 |
| Midas+ 13_26555702546 | 10 | 27.6 | 0.8656141732 | 0.7559864527 | 10.16 |
| Midas+ 13_26555702546 | 10 | 32.54 | 1.060102362 | 0.9258432325 | 19 |
| Center-X 3_23555701733 | 10 | 26.26 | 0.8128582677 | 0.7099119415 | 6.16 |
| Center-X 3_23555701733 | 10 | 40.96 | 1.391598425 | 1.215356205 | 17.86 |
| Center-X 3_23555701733 | 10 | 30.58 | 0.9829370079 | 0.858450664 | 10.64 |
| Center-X 4_24555501282 | 10 | 36.38 | 1.211283465 | 1.057877652 | 10.35 |
| Center-X 4_24555501282 | 10 | 28.02 | 0.8821496063 | 0.7704277173 | 9.67 |
| Center-X 4_24555501282 | 10 | 25.88 | 0.7978976378 | 0.6968460354 | 11.39 |
What scope are you running? I’m using an SHV until my new scope gets here. I didn’t check the down adjustment after I zeroed at 25 yards, but using a 40 moa base leaves me 22.5 which gets me almost to 450. New scope should hopefully give me an additional 7 mils on top of that.
I use a Leica PRS. It's got 32 mils of travel. I've got 17 useable with a 20moa rail right now. Gonna get a 40.
Guessing that'll give me 23 usable...
And here's the tree I'll have to use at 500, with a 5mil hold... methinks.
Rick,
Everyone is chasing such minuscule improvements that without shooting 1,000's, if not 10,000's of rounds, in dozens of "identical" guns, there is no way to prove or disprove any single "improvement". There are just too many variables to know what is doing what.
Then when you finished all that testing, you would be out of that lot of ammo, and you would get to start over...LOL!
So all you can do is shotgun all of the improvements together and hope that does it.
HB
HB:
A random walk through variable space? Perhaps slightly biased?
Many thanks for the laugh. Never heard a more perfect irony than "Then when you finished all that testing, you would be out of that lot of ammo, and you would get to start over...LOL!"
Rick
Ditto... and I received this earlier this month. I've been out-of-state but had opportunity to zero while visiting brother-in law in Colorado. Used 1st 9 rounds to dial in. This 1 inch blue dot caught the next 11 rounds. Only at 25yds but very promising.
Attachments
That lot # really opened up at 100 while the other remained a bit tighter even though it wasn't as tight at 50.
Can you break this down a bit more. I'm confused about how they measure and what the abbreviations mean. I'm guessing E-E is edge to edge and C-C is center to center. If so, how are they measuring MOA? And what does DHH mean?
I ended up with the Center-X 4_24555501282. It slightly beat out overall the 733.
50m Average MOA 0.7944941995 with a DHH of 5.013333333
vs
50m Average MOA 0.7738638214 with a DHH of 4.863333333.
They only measure Edge to Edge, I did the conversion to C-C by doing "{value} / 25.4 - 0.221". I also calculated the MOA for 50m and 100, for 50m = "{value}/( 1.093613 * (1.047/2)) "
Their terminology -
Sample of one of the ammo -
That's a SWEET looking rifle! Looks to be a tack-driver also. Congratulations!
Probably a noob question but does Vudoo have a tight chamber? I recently learn that a lot of match chamber is very tight that it requires some force to chamber the round, some ammo won't even chamber, while also making the round not extractable until fire. So does Vudoo have these type of chamber? If so does it affect how smooth the action is?
Good morning Pepelefrog. From listening to Mike Bush's videos, they make the chamber as tight as they can but still allow the extraction of the bullet without pulling the slug out of the case. I think the nose of the bullet is right at the rifling but not jammed into it. My Vudoo will extract bullets with no damage or marks to the nose of the bullet. 4Certain
Thank you. Have anyone try the tighter "match" chamber on their vudoo to see if there's any increase in accuracy? With how accurate the Vudoo is already from what i see so far, i imagine that type of chamber would take it to the next level.
I'mAnybody happen to know roundabout what order dates are shipping of recent? I'm a late May order and trying to keep calm a couple more weeks
Anybody happen to know roundabout what order dates are shipping of recent? I'm a late May order and trying to keep calm a couple more weeks
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