Vudoo Gun Works V-22 Rimfire Bolt Action

#9,001
Turboshooter said:
The top of the top... rarely if at all move their tuners once tune is astablished.
Click to expand...

Of course they don't... neither do I... once you've set it up to optimize for a type/velocity of 22LR ammo, there's no reason to. But adjustment would likely make a difference if you change from, say Lapua Center-x/Midas+ to the Eley family of ammo.

Anyway, I could go on, but detailed tuner discussions belong in a different thread, not this Vudoo Bolt Action thread! ;-)
 
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#9,003
Panther said:
Of course they don't... neither do I... once you've set it up to optimize for a type/velocity of 22LR ammo, there's no reason to. But adjustment would likely make a difference if you change from, say Lapua Center-x/Midas+ to the Eley family of ammo.

Anyway, I could go on, but detailed tuner discussions belong in a different thread, not this Vudoo Bolt Action thread! ;-)

Oh sorry to ruffle your feathers. Your assumption is wrong about changing ammo. Did you even read what I wrote? I've shot both eley and lapua with great success on the same tuner setting. You guys are lost when it comes to what tuners actually do. They don't tune ammo, they tune the barrel. Once barrel is truly tuned there is no reason to ever move it no matter the brand or speed. If it shoots it shoots if it doesn't it gets passed over its truly that simple.
Click to expand...
 
#9,004
Turboshooter said:
Oh sorry to ruffle your feathers. Your assumption is wrong about changing ammo. Did you even read what I wrote? I've shot both eley and lapua with great success on the same tuner setting. You guys are lost when it comes to what tuners actually do. They don't tune ammo, they tune the barrel. Once barrel is truly tuned there is no reason to ever move it no matter the brand or speed. If it shoots it shoots if it doesn't it gets passed over its truly that simple.
Click to expand...

So you are saying unlike the centerfire where the ammo effects the harmonics of the barrel and you tune the barrel to the specific ammo that in a rimfire you tune the barrel and every ammo you put through it no matter the ammo speed or bullet they will all shoot well?
 
#9,005
Rob01 said:
So you are saying unlike the centerfire where the ammo effects the harmonics of the barrel and you tune the barrel to the specific ammo that in a rimfire you tune the barrel and every ammo you put through it no matter the ammo speed or bullet they will all shoot well?
Click to expand...

That is nothing like I said. I'm not comparing rimfire to centerfire that's where you guys get lost. There is no comparison between the two on how to tune. I shoot any brand at any speed I dont care what it says on the box or what a chronograph says. It either shoots or it dont no magic no tuning. No I didn't say they will all shoot well, thats why you lot test ammo. Once tune is found that's it. You CANNOT tune any ammo to shoot good it just doesn't work that way. Positive compensation guys would have you think you can tune any lot at any time and that's just not true. You can never turn crap ammo into winning ammo with any form of tuner.
 
#9,006
Turboshooter said:
That is nothing like I said. I'm not comparing rimfire to centerfire that's where you guys get lost. There is no comparison between the two on how to tune. I shoot any brand at any speed I dont care what it says on the box or what a chronograph says. It either shoots or it dont no magic no tuning. No I didn't say they will all shoot well, thats why you lot test ammo. Once tune is found that's it. You CANNOT tune any ammo to shoot good it just doesn't work that way. Positive compensation guys would have you think you can tune any lot at any time and that's just not true. You can never turn crap ammo into winning ammo with any form of tuner.
Click to expand...
Not lost but trying to figure how a rimfire will not be effected by the harmonics of the load as centerfire rounds are. So you lot test ammo after tuning the rifle to a certain ammo so you are finding ammo that is compatible to that tune on the barrel. Basically doing it a different way in tuning rifle first and then finding ammo that will work with that tune versus shooting the ammo and tuning to the rifle to the ammo. And not saying turn crap ammo into winning ammo but there has to be something in the ammo that is good to begin with that would make it fall into that barrels tune you already set.
 
#9,007
Turboshooter said:
My tuner has been set since the day I got it back from the gunsmith and hasn't been touched and won't be touched. Tuners don't tune ammo, they tune the barrel there is no need for adjustment once the correct tune is found. I've shot both eley and lapua on the exact same tune. Once the gun is tuned it's just a matter of finding the right ammo.
Click to expand...
I have the J&L tuner from Joe Chacon and he says exactly the same as you about tuning the barrel and not the ammo.
Mine is tuned to the 9th harmonic by Joe and has never been touched by me either.
My barrel with Joe's tuner has put several different brands of ammo into a ragged one-hole group on numerous occasions. 👍🏼
 
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#9,008
Sagittarius said:
I have the J&L tuner from Joe Chacon and he says exactly the same as you about tuning the barrel and not the ammo.
Mine is tuned to the 9th harmonic by Joe and has never been touched by me either.
My barrel with Joe's tuner has put several different brands of ammo into a ragged one-hole group on numerous occasions. 👍🏼
Click to expand...

No way to just mfg the barrel to the 9th harmonic? I figure if they start at that 26" barrel and just start cutting mm's off until they get to the 9th harmonic?
 
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#9,011
littlepod said:
No way to just mfg the barrel to the 9th harmonic? I figure if they start at that 26" barrel and just start cutting mm's off until they get to the 9th harmonic?
Click to expand...
Custom remfire builders slug their barrel blanks to determine where the tight spots are. This is where they cut and place the crown. Their not concerned with the 9 harmonic. Taper lapping is also used to produce the same results.
 
#9,014
The tuner and tuner only are set to the 9th Harmonic!
Where are you guys getting the barrel is manufactured to the 9th Harmonic?
Perhaps I wasn't clear above but I meant the Tuner is set to the 9th Harmonic, not barrel.
That is a Joe Chacon statement about the 9th Harmonic of the tuner, not mine.
If you don't agree with it, leave me alone and take it up with Joe, lol.
 
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#9,015
I was just wondering if there's some optimal harmonic to have anything at... why not do it at the time of mfg'ing of the barrel/action. Why make someone go get a tuner to get to the right harmonic / tune? I mean the goal ultimately is to get the rifle to shoot the smallest groups, so if there's some magical setting that works with all ammo, then just do it from the factory?
 
#9,016
Turboshooter said:
You guys are lost when it comes to what tuners actually do. They don't tune ammo, they tune the barrel. Once barrel is truly tuned there is no reason to ever move it no matter the brand or speed.
Click to expand...

If you don't have respect for Mike Ezell's opinion, I just talked to Don at Harrell's Precision to confirm. Same thing... he said that it might take a few clicks to get it optimized when you change ammo. You're tuning MOSTLY for the barrel, but fully for a barrel/ammo *combination*.

You're stating as fact something that doesn't match the physics. Speed and bullet weight *do* affect the movement of the barrel in response to the mass travelling down it. Of course it's to a lesser degree with the tiny rimfire projectiles than it is with larger centerfire projectiles., so sometimes you might not have to adjust at all when changing rimfire ammo... as you stated is the case in your personal experience. But that doesn't make it an absolute in every case.

You don't have to agree with me or Ezell or Harrell or physics :)
 
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#9,017
Panther said:
If you don't have respect for Mike Ezell's opinion, I just talked to Don at Harrell's Precision to confirm. Same thing... he said that it might take a few clicks to get it optimized when you change ammo. You're tuning MOSTLY for the barrel, but fully for a barrel/ammo *combination*.

You're stating as fact something that doesn't match the physics. Speed and bullet weight *do* affect the movement of the barrel in response to the mass travelling down it. Of course it's to a lesser degree with the tiny rimfire projectiles than it is with larger centerfire projectiles., so sometimes you might not have to adjust at all when changing rimfire ammo... as you stated is the case in your personal experience. But that doesn't make it an absolute in every case.

You don't have to agree with me or Ezell or Harrell or physics :)
Click to expand...
Turboshooter as I is speaking from experience. I'm not saying how I set up a gun is etched in stone. I'm not even saying it's correct. I'm just saying this is what I have found to work for me from years of experience. The reason I don't "touch up" my tuner is that I have found that if I have found the true tune for my barrel a few clicks +or- has little or no effect. Calfee agrees with this also. 22 ammo is inconsistent you can't tell from lot to lot box to box or bullet to bullet what the speed will be. You wind up chasing the tuners tail.
 
#9,018
Sagittarius said:
Sounds like the solution for everyone is...
Don't shoot Eley in a Vudoo! 🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♀️
Click to expand...
Agreed. From day 1 this chamber has been designed around lapua center x. If you can afford eley match you can afford center x. Can't afford center x shoot sk. Ejection problem solved. Nit trying to be an a$$. But just shoot it how it was designed and no issues.
 
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#9,019
I can understand why guys are trying Eley at this point in time - it's generally easier to find than Lapua ammo. I tried some recent Eley Match in a Bartlein chambered with a 52D Match reamer that hasn't shot very well with proven lots of Center-X or SK Rifle Match, and got better results - except that I'd set up the headspace for Lapua/SK, and the bolt was difficult to close on Eley. Also had lead build-up on the breechface after 20rds from the flatnose Eley bullets - perhaps I don't have enough radius on the edge of the chamber, but it's always fed Lapua/SK really well.
 
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#9,020
Sagittarius said:
I have the J&L tuner from Joe Chacon and he says exactly the same as you about tuning the barrel and not the ammo.
Mine is tuned to the 9th harmonic by Joe and has never been touched by me either.
My barrel with Joe's tuner has put several different brands of ammo into a ragged one-hole group on numerous occasions. 👍🏼
Click to expand...
Joe uses the Purdy formula to tune to the 9th harmonic since this is what Tony Purdy recommends. I have a Shilen ratchet being done by JElrod. I'm going with 24" since when I asked Joe what is the best length he didn't hesitate. I have a Harrel's tuner and last night measured it and used the formula and it measures at the length I need with room to adjust up or down. I have a 20" barrel with a tuner from Joe preset. It works. I know there are many thoughts on what tuners do and don't do. I'm just happy to have found a way to make a good barrel shoot better.
 
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#9,021
littlesister said:
Turboshooter as I is speaking from experience. ... The reason I don't "touch up" my tuner is that I have found that if I have found the true tune for my barrel a few clicks +or- has little or no effect.
Click to expand...

That will often be the case. The reason is that the mass of a 40 grain 22LR bullet is small relative to its effect on barrel "whip" on a heavier .22LR barrel... and typically the difference in velocity from lot to lot or manufacturer to manufacturer for match type ammo is also relatively small. The physics are still there, but the end result often will not benefit from tuner adjustment. It's just not *always* the case. ;)
 
#9,022
I was unfamiliar with the Pro-X tuner so I called and spoke with Mike to see which bushing I'd need to tune to the Purdy 9th harmonic. I have the tuner enroute to JElrod to fit to my Shilen. I also have a Harrels to compare with. As an aside, I have been messing with chamber specs. I found that the "semi-auto match" Bentz chamber that Manson makes has virtually the same dimensions as the 52D. To get the 52D specs I have in my other barrel I just had him cut it back to .580 and 2 degree vs 1.5 degree leade. It shoots great and no problems with Eley..
 
#9,025
Rob01 said:
Have mine tuned by Buckaroo Banzai and he has it tuned to the 8th dimension. :)
Click to expand...
images.jpeg
 
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#9,027
Im with flatland1, availability is likely the reason people are looking at eley etc as an alternative to lapua/sk.
I can find shit tons of eley, can't find centre x or even most flavours of SK.

I won't buy eley in bulk until I know it feeds and groups half reasonably.
 
#9,028
I’ve shot a crap ton of sk/lapua with no issues. I recently lost tested some Eley for the first time because it’s so much more available. It feeds and groups great but sometimes I get a round or two that doesn’t go boom on the first try. I shot it at our last match and in practice the day before. I probably shot 200 rounds without an issue until one of the last stages I had two rounds not fire. Cleaned off a glob of wax off the face of the chamber and finished the match without problems. I’m hoping it’s as simple as keeping the face of the chamber wiped clean to keep me up and running.
 
#9,029
CBeck said:
I’ve shot a crap ton of sk/lapua with no issues. I recently lost tested some Eley for the first time because it’s so much more available. It feeds and groups great but sometimes I get a round or two that doesn’t go boom on the first try. I shot it at our last match and in practice the day before. I probably shot 200 rounds without an issue until one of the last stages I had two rounds not fire. Cleaned off a glob of wax off the face of the chamber and finished the match without problems. I’m hoping it’s as simple as keeping the face of the chamber wiped clean to keep me up and running.
Click to expand...
I've only put SK (RM and PM) though my Vudoo, but curious; does Eley have more, same or less wax than say CCI ammo? SoCal Plinker (on YouTube) has several videos on his channel running CCI-SV though his Vudoo, he mentioned a few times that it occasionally hard to close the bolt with it, but his results were pretty good.
 
#9,030
Arkansan said:
Joe uses the Purdy formula to tune to the 9th harmonic since this is what Tony Purdy recommends. I have a Shilen ratchet being done by JElrod. I'm going with 24" since when I asked Joe what is the best length he didn't hesitate. I have a Harrel's tuner and last night measured it and used the formula and it measures at the length I need with room to adjust up or down. I have a 20" barrel with a tuner from Joe preset. It works. I know there are many thoughts on what tuners do and don't do. I'm just happy to have found a way to make a good barrel shoot better.
Click to expand...

You are correct, Arkansan.
I've known Joe credits, Tony Purdy, for several years.
Here's a Youtube video by Joe discussing the tuner.
 
#9,031
Cowpokey said:
I've only put SK (RM and PM) though my Vudoo, but curious; does Eley have more, same or less wax than say CCI ammo? SoCal Plinker (on YouTube) has several videos on his channel running CCI-SV though his Vudoo, he mentioned a few times that it occasionally hard to close the bolt with it, but his results were pretty good.
Click to expand...
The tenex and match wax is like bees wax, not greasy like sk or lapua so I guess that’s what allows it to build up. I’ve shot CCI in mine and never noticed any build up with CCI but it doesn’t have the greasiness either. Some rounds of CCI are definitely harder to close the bolt on and really more noticeable when shooting positional practice. It shoots good enough for practice for me but it’s not consistent enough for matches.
 
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#9,032
CBeck said:
The tenex and match wax is like bees wax, not greasy like sk or lapua so I guess that’s what allows it to build up. I’ve shot CCI in mine and never noticed any build up with CCI but it doesn’t have the greasiness either. Some rounds of CCI are definitely harder to close the bolt on and really more noticeable when shooting positional practice. It shoots good enough for practice for me but it’s not consistent enough for matches.
Click to expand...
I don't know exactly what kind of wax CCI uses on their ammo, the website doesn't say and neither do any of the boxes/slides/bricks I have...but I seem to remember seeing somewhere that they use paraffin wax. Anyone know if that's true? If so, what's the difference between beeswax and paraffin, in terms of "hardness". I have a bunch of SK PM on hand, it does well in the Vudoo, so I don't see a reason to change at the moment, still planning to have it sent to the test center and get a couple cases of Center-X, but that's not in the immediate future...SK will do well enough for now, I'm just getting ready to start competing in PRS type matches...so my only goal (other than safety of course) is not finishing last*.

*I don't care what "gun**" beats me...LOL!

**Shooter
 
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#9,033
Cowpokey said:
I don't know exactly what kind of wax CCI uses on their ammo, the website doesn't say and neither do any of the boxes/slides/bricks I have...but I seem to remember seeing somewhere that they use paraffin wax. Anyone know if that's true? If so, what's the difference between beeswax and paraffin, in terms of "hardness". I have a bunch of SK PM on hand, it does well in the Vudoo, so I don't see a reason to change at the moment, still planning to have it sent to the test center and get a couple cases of Center-X, but that's not in the immediate future...SK will do well enough for now, I'm just getting ready to start competing in PRS type matches...so my only goal (other than safety of course) is not finishing last*.

*I don't care what "gun**" beats me...LOL!

**Shooter
Click to expand...

The test center is a committment.. $65 shipped each way, $50 testing and $1200 for a case of center-x.. so basically let's say about $1400 a case, so $140 a brick.

Pretty pricey. But the great thing is that you never have to redope and rezero again. I figure people who are redoping, rezeroing are probably spending a good 50 rounds. So for every brick of ammo you buy, you are losing 10% of that to redoping and rezeroing, and then whatever your time is worth. If you're doing lot testing, then another 200 rounds of lot testing and that time too.

So depending on what your time is worth, I think a few cases from Lapua is a pretty good investment.

Also regarding matches, as a MD, my main success is when I can finish a match without any DQs for safety reasons.
 
#9,035
littlepod said:
The test center is a committment.. $65 shipped each way, $50 testing and $1200 for a case of center-x.. /snip
Click to expand...
my understanding was that if you buy a case or two of ammo, they don't charge the $50 for testing. Am I mislead on that? Shipping each way is a money suck, I could drive there and back, but I doubt $130 would cover fuel...let alone my time plus wear-n-tear on the vehicle.
 
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#9,036
littlepod said:
The test center is a committment.. $65 shipped each way, $50 testing and $1200 for a case of center-x.. so basically let's say about $1400 a case, so $140 a brick.

Pretty pricey. But the great thing is that you never have to redope and rezero again. I figure people who are redoping, rezeroing are probably spending a good 50 rounds. So for every brick of ammo you buy, you are losing 10% of that to redoping and rezeroing, and then whatever your time is worth. If you're doing lot testing, then another 200 rounds of lot testing and that time too.

So depending on what your time is worth, I think a few cases from Lapua is a pretty good investment.

Also regarding matches, as a MD, my main success is when I can finish a match without any DQs for safety reasons.
Click to expand...
I've never really re zeroed. I'm at 25 yards, so not much variance there regardless of velocity changes. Generally just shoot out as far as possible, make vertical scope corrections, add to Strelok truing and it's pretty spot on from there. I have had over a MIL of vertical variance at 100-200 yards from lot to lot though. But the truing generally fixes that.

I'm NOT arguing against testing, I very much subscribe to the logic. But as you pointed out, it's not cheap and takes a financial commitment to buying as much ammo in the lot number as possible. Otherwise why even do it.
 
#9,039
littlepod said:
The test center is a committment.. $65 shipped each way, $50 testing and $1200 for a case of center-x.. so basically let's say about $1400 a case, so $140 a brick.

Pretty pricey. But the great thing is that you never have to redope and rezero again. I figure people who are redoping, rezeroing are probably spending a good 50 rounds. So for every brick of ammo you buy, you are losing 10% of that to redoping and rezeroing, and then whatever your time is worth. If you're doing lot testing, then another 200 rounds of lot testing and that time too.

So depending on what your time is worth, I think a few cases from Lapua is a pretty good investment.

Also regarding matches, as a MD, my main success is when I can finish a match without any DQs for safety reasons.
Click to expand...
Do they always recomend Center X or Midas+ or one of the more expensive brands/lots?
 
#9,042
littlepod said:
Yep. I mainly get my dope correct in the Kestrel and let the Kestrel take care of environmental condition changes to let me know new dope.
Click to expand...
Kestrel is an excellent tool, but it still needs to be verified. Mine still shows the same calculation when it's 40º or 70º. However, comma for effect, I didn't adjust the muzzle velocity...so that's on me. I checked the muzzle velocity, but didn't adjust that in the Kestrel.
 
#9,044
Sometimes, you take your gun to the testing lab...they test all sorts of ammo..and they find nothing that works well enough to buy..Your kinda pissed..Think your gun is kinda crap..then on a whim you try some RWS50..and realize it LOVES the stuff...I have yet to find a CenterX or Midas it loves..I could use it in a PRS Match and it wouldnt cause me to loose but if you go thru testing and that time and expense you want it to hammer and it just wont with Lapua..it will though with RWS and for the most part it's not to lot picky with it either. I know of some Annies, that loves Lapua and doesn't like RWS..It's always a crap shoot and you never know with rimfire..
 
#9,046
They waived the fee for me as well. Bought a case of best performing CX, did not try midas+ but did bring my own variety of SK ammo to run thru it to see what did good.

Will be going again, mainly for my 360 to see what it likes...
 
#9,047
Badjujuu said:
They waived the fee for me as well. Bought a case of best performing CX, did not try midas+ but did bring my own variety of SK ammo to run thru it to see what did good.

Will be going again, mainly for my 360 to see what it likes...
Click to expand...
I did the same with SK ammo. I had some that was shooting well and used it to compare against the Center X. Center X was better.
 
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#9,048
I had tested a lot of SK+ locally and found the best lot, and the same with Pistol Match Special. I sent both along to be tested.

50m

1642607112763.png


100m

1642607164358.png


Center-X 50m
1642607255540.png

100m
1642607279794.png


I sent this lot with my 360 to see how it compares with their new lots. RIght now this lot shoots the best out of my 360 as well as my Gen 1.2.

My 360 is a 22" Benchmark and my Gen 1.2 is a 18" Ace. My friend built the same exact 360 22" Benchmark rifle and received his a week before me and just got finished testing:

1642607365828.png


1642607388181.png


I'll have my 360 results in a week.
 
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#9,049
@littlepod - are the 100m targets shot at the same time as the 50m targets?
If they are, are the ones you posted from testing in order?

The reason I ask is that I assumed if the bullets fly fairly true the 100m pattern would roughly be a larger version of the 50m pattern, if they are shot from a fixed position.

Thanks
Dan
 
#9,050
dano225 said:
@littlepod - are the 100m targets shot at the same time as the 50m targets?
If they are, are the ones you posted from testing in order?

The reason I ask is that I assumed if the bullets fly fairly true the 100m pattern would roughly be a larger version of the 50m pattern, if they are shot from a fixed position.

Thanks
Dan
Click to expand...

Yes I believe that's how Lapua tests, at 50/100 at the same time. I expected group patterns to look the same too but they don't.
 
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