Weighing brass into groups worth it?

m1a convert

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 29, 2003
287
4
Idaho Falls
I have had some problems with large SD's and have moved to weighing each charge on a balance beam scale. I have a friend who swears that i have to start weighing my brass and separating it into lots of 1 grain differences and tracking them that way?

Does it make a big difference in practical (1000 yard vs. benchrest) accuracy?

It seems like I would have to buy a lot of brass to end up with a good amount that all weigh the same.
 
Re: Weighing brass into groups worth it?

It isn't nearly as important as culling out odd colored grains of powder or pre-spinning your bullets.



Seriously, I like to segregate my brass by manufacturer, keep them in lots so I track their age , use and maintenance and leave it at that. I'm no benchrester and probably not as serious a reloader as yourself, but I'm thinking there are other issues causing this SD anomaly that could be more readily identified and remedied.
 
Re: Weighing brass into groups worth it?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m1a convert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have had some problems with large SD's and have moved to weighing each charge on a balance beam scale. I have a friend who swears that i have to start weighing my brass and separating it into lots of 1 grain differences and tracking them that way?

Does it make a big difference in practical (1000 yard vs. benchrest) accuracy?

It seems like I would have to buy a lot of brass to end up with a good amount that all weigh the same.
</div></div>

I am not good enough to see that "slight improvement is accuracy". Waste too much time doing it. I can still shot sub MOA without doing any of those fancy stuff that BR shooters do.
 
Re: Weighing brass into groups worth it?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It isn't nearly as important as culling out odd colored grains of powder or pre-spinning your bullets.
</div></div>

ROTFLMAO!!!
 
Re: Weighing brass into groups worth it?

M1A,
I'm responding to you concerning this thread and your neck turning thread.I think it depends on how much time and energy you want to put into brass prep and your accuracy goals as well as some other factors.I'm no expert but this is my take on the subject.

Brass prep ultimately reduces variables in brass and then hopefully transmits into reduced flyers and smaller groups.

If you have a stock gun only capable of so much accuracy to begin with then you could be chasing your tail at some point.

I have some match guns that I spend the time to fully benchrest prep brass for.What I mean by fully prepped brass is:neckturned,flash holes deburred,flash holes reamed,weight sorted and trimmed at every loading.I don't bother to ream/uniform primer pockets any more.
However these rifles all have match chambers cut for one brand of brass and have tight necks.I own the chambering reamers for each one.Also these rifles all have custom,actions,stocks,barrels,triggers,etc.
Yes they are shooters and benefit from the brass prep.

I've done some experimenting with some stock guns and brass prep and did see a reduction in flyers and smaller groups.In some stock guns there was little improvement and a major improvement in one gun in particular.The improvement in accuracy on this one gun was because the quality of the brass was horrible!Groups went from 2.5 inches at 100Y to 1/2 inch.So in this instance the brass prep made a huge difference.

You can try different suitable powders,seating depths,different brands of bullets,different primers.
I don't like spending huge amounts of time working up loads so I pick 1 or 2 types of bullets,2 types of powders,2 types of primers to start load development with and usually find an accurate load with minimal fuss by first doing a ladder test to determine optimum charge weight of the powder.Look up OCW or ladder test on google to study and apply it.
From my experience poor SD is usually traced to loads being too hot.

What's practical accuracy?For a 1000Y benchrest shooter a gun that is not capable of near 1/4 MOA is not competitive.A tactical match shooter with a gun capable of .75MOA could win the match.

As far as weight sorting goes all you need to do is put them into weight groups of fifty and set aside the extreme light or heavy ones for barrel fowling or for sighters to get on target with.

Steve





 
Re: Weighing brass into groups worth it?

Ive largely quit weighing brass. Ive just found for the type of shooting I do, its completely a waste of time. I do uniform pockets, debur flash holes, and keep 'em trimmed.
 
Re: Weighing brass into groups worth it?

"From my experience poor SD is usually traced to loads being too hot."

When working out your load you are looking for a recipe that delivers consistent repeatable results. When working out your load with a chronograph you can see a linear increase in velocity for a fixed increase in powder charge. Say every .5 grain your getting a 30/35 fps increase in velocity. Your chrono numbers are ok but not great. Towards the upper end ( your loading manual will call this a max load) you get a 10 fps increase and pretty good numbers on the chrono. your next .5 grains you jump 50/60 fps and the bolt is a little bit tight. Drop your load a grain and then shoot some five shot groups with a .3 grain above and below your "safe" in your rifle max load. Probably get pretty good numbers and your best groups. Getting your Powder/primer/bullet combination in the "sweet" spot will do more fore ES/SD than any amount of brass weighing.
 
Re: Weighing brass into groups worth it?

Never weighed brass and never will. I would rather be shooting. You think Federal or Hornady weigh each piece of their match brass for their match grade loaded ammo and put them in boxes with like weight?

My brass prep has simplified with no loss in accuracy at all. I tumble, size/deprime, retumble to get lube off, clean/uniform primer pocket, and then trim/chamfer/deburr on the Gracey. That's it until they get primed and loaded.
 
Re: Weighing brass into groups worth it?

Just for S&G's, I weighed out the brass for my last batch of .223 for the FV matches. The cases varied in weight from 92-99gr (Hornady/Frontier previously fired). I felt that was an awful lot of variation, so I divvied them up into a high and low group and put the really wild ones into the spotter sighters. Since all the other components were consistent and the charges were weighed, I figured I had a better deal than not weighing, and did my final selection based on completed cartridge weights.

Didn't work out so well.

The sighters were kinda dispersing themselves, and I still needed to refine the zero for the first few rounds of the first stage. Lost 5 points out of 100 for this reason.

Second stage, the sighters were off, and when I corrected and went to the score shots, I was off by nearly 3" at 200yd on the first scoring shot, and dropped two more shots getting centered again. Blew 4 more points overall getting back to the center.

So, that was a bad strategy.

This time I weighed again, but this time I started with 85 (LC ball once fired) cases, and selected 50 from the biggest accumulation of like-weighted cases, which turned out to have a weight spread of 2-ish gr. The cases were racked in weight sequence, and handloaded with additional care, and the resulting cartridges were weighed and arrayed in a shooting block in precise weight order. Sighters are the center two rows of five this time.

A different tactic based on a different logical concept. Maybe it will also reap a different (perhaps better) result. We'll know before the month is out.

Greg
 
Re: Weighing brass into groups worth it?

Through all my years of shooting I have found brass to be the biggest varriable in accuracy.

I just recently bought some 7mm-08 Winchester brass to form into 260. (I have always used Lapua before, but to hard to find now) Out of 250rds I had three different weights. From the lightest to the heaviest bag there was nearly 20+grs difference in case weight.

I then checked the capacity of the cases and found there was a full grain of powder difference between the two lots. Now that would definatly make a difference at 1000yds!!!

I sort an neck turn all my brass. I have found a lot of cases with a thick neck on one side or the other. This really helps with bullet run out when you "Clean" the neckse. Even some of my Laupa brass has had some bad necks. I have had known flyers when shooting groups, then marked the case and found it to be a flyer again even though it has had everything done to it just as the other cases.
 
Re: Weighing brass into groups worth it?

Rob01,

That's no fair!You don't need to do any brass prep because you are such a good shot.You would probably win tactical matches even with a stock DPMS 308 with cheap ammo.


Steve
 
Re: Weighing brass into groups worth it?

Let me suggest that cases should be prep'ed, fireformed, and resized according to normal usage before attempting to measure case volume. Otherwise, you're basing your capacity on something that's just going to change anyway.

Greg
 
Re: Weighing brass into groups worth it?

What a coincidence. I'm getting a DPMS LR308 next week LOL

That's not why Steve. I used to do all sorts of brass prep but just starting dropping stuff as I got busier and found it made no difference in the final product for me. Kind of like the KISS principle. Hell, recently I have just been shooting the factory 140 6.5 Creedmoor at matches. Why reload at all when it shoots that good and requires no work. LOL
 
Re: Weighing brass into groups worth it?

Yep, Rob is right. I had also trimmed as much from the process as I could get away with. Mostly, my shooting sucked so bad, it made no difference anyway; but lately, I'm beginning to get some of it back, and some of the things I dropped are beginning to show promise once again. Case weights and volumes seem to be on that menu.
 
Re: Weighing brass into groups worth it?

Whether to weigh and sort brass depends on what your accuracy/precision requirement is.

If you are a BR, F-class or other LR precision competitor then it would make sense to minimize EVERY variable.

If you are a "tactical" shooter, I don't think it's necessary.
I tried weight sorting at while back. I took my culls, the highest and lowest weight cases, loaded them and shot them in a group for barrel fouling. I still got groups that were 1moa. That stopped me from weight sorting.
 
Re: Weighing brass into groups worth it?

If we were to sort by water volume AFTER firing, is there any need to weight sort before firing at all? Isn't teh weight sorting of cases an atempt to get to the same point (case volume) but without the need to fill and measure each one individually.

I've been thinking about his for a while, but never took the time to see if it makes a difference.

JeffVN
 
Re: Weighing brass into groups worth it?

Actually, weight sorting, for me, is just an indirect approach to guaging case volume. The true strategy requires measuring actual volume, since some weight variations are not directly related to case volume variation.
 
Re: Weighing brass into groups worth it?

I have found, at least with Lapua brass, that sorting by length is actually a better correlation to case volume than weight. Case length also seems to affect my accuracy more than any other factor. I assume that is because of the seating depth variance as it relates to either neck tension or case volume during initial burn.

I don't trim or full length size until I am almost forced to. After several firings between trim operations, the Lapua brass shows a fair length differential.

In any event, when shotting tactical style there dos not seem to be a huge difference in any event.

 
Re: Weighing brass into groups worth it?

True that tactical matches don't require the accuracy as some other disciplines but that doesn't mean I want my rifles to be inaccurate. Doing my brass as I said above my .243 is sub 1/2 MOA and my 6.5 Creedmoor and .308 are 1/2 MOA rifles. And that is not just at 100 yards.
 
Re: Weighing brass into groups worth it?

Neck tension, uniform that is. Not the only factor, but a key one. The neck does not have to be tight neck like bench rest, even no turn necks can benefit from uniform neck tension. Final culling of ammo is how tight or loose the seated bullet is by feel or by use of instruments.
 
Re: Weighing brass into groups worth it?

I think that its more important to deburr the primer hole one the inside of the case anmake sure the primer pocket is square and the primer sits in it correctly. Also they should be trimmed to the same length.
But the most important thing is to make sure (with a dial indicator)of the bullet runout after its loaded. This will tell you how straight the bullet is. If it don't straight it's not going to leave the barrel straight.
I use the one that comes from sinclair. Its a one time buy and will work on everything but 50BMG

MHO
larryj
 
Re: Weighing brass into groups worth it?

For tactical type matchs I never did squat to my brass, clean, trim and stuff with powder/bullet etc

NOw for my Match rig x47
Brass weight sorted
Neck turned
necks annealed (plan is every 5 time)
bullets weighed
melpat trimmed and pointed

Not that i currently do that but that end goal, still getting my ass back in gear

However weighing brass to me still makes no sense, as weight has nothing to do with capacity.
Weight difference between cases could be anywhere thru out case but not actually encroach on internal capacity.
The only true way would be to measure actual H2o capacity and sort that way, thankfully its a one off task...but sorting based solely on weight of case is IMHO pointless.
 
Re: Weighing brass into groups worth it?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let me suggest that cases should be prep'ed, fireformed, and resized according to normal usage before attempting to measure case volume. Otherwise, you're basing your capacity on something that's just going to change anyway.

Greg </div></div>

Agree with Greg
 
Re: Weighing brass into groups worth it?

No response. I ask about Black Hills because I expect case weighing would be rather easy to do on a production line. Kick out the cases which are outside some spec. But I don't know if this is a regular practice. I do know that BH don't debur the flash hole, because I loooked. And it still shoot 1/2MOA from my 223 and 308 rifles.

I expect that case weight does correlate, at least on average, with combustion volume. Once a case is fired once or twice it expands to fill the volume of the rifle's combustion chamber, so the exterior volume of the case is essentially the same for all cases fired in that rifle. If the case weighs more, then more volume is occupied by brass and less is available for the combustion gases. Thus heavier cases would run higher pressure. I estimate that for 10 grain variation in the case weight (of brass), given a 308 case volume of about 55 grains of water, and the specific gravity of brass about 8.5 (x water), the 10 grain variation in the case weight translates to 2% smaller case volume after the case has conformed to the chamber. 2% difference in case volume could produce 1-2% differences in muzzle velocity (or less, depending upon the combustion time)which is significant for 1000 yard shooting.

So that's why I asked if anyone knows how the commercial manufacturers prepare their match ammo cases. I'd be interested to know what is necessary to produce 1/2 MOA ammo.
 
Re: Weighing brass into groups worth it?

At one time I weighed my brass. I don't do any more as my typical range is 200yds. When I did weigh cases the 20 Hornady match cases I had did weigh within .5 grains of one another. Most were the same. I have also found that when working up loads in Fed brass I started getting a stiff bolt lift that didn't happen in my Win brass with the same charge. ( I know Fed brass isn't the best but that's all I had at first)
 
Re: Weighing brass into groups worth it?

I have actually seen weight variances approaching 10gr (92gr-101gr) in a batch 50 cases with HDY production .223 brass, which I consider to be rather extreme. Federal showed extreme variances of 5 gr with 90% within 3gr and most of them within 2 gr. WCC NATO showed similar. I weigh my brass after priming.
 
Re: Weighing brass into groups worth it?

For .223 or .308, it appears that weighing brass, as well as deburring flash holes is very important to assuring low SD and ES. I also weigh powder charges, and the finished rounds. For MR and LR the results from the effort is rewarded with good scores, not possible, I've discovered, without such cartridge attention.
 
Re: Weighing brass into groups worth it?

I can shoot in the 4's on days with no wind without ever turning necks or weighing brass.

The trouble is, where I shoot, there is wind 90% of the time that negates the effect of good guns and good ammo.
 
Re: Weighing brass into groups worth it?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Clark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can shoot in the 4's on days with no wind without ever turning necks or weighing brass.

The trouble is, where I shoot, there is wind 90% of the time that negates the effect of good guns and good ammo.</div></div>

Shooting a bullseye target, having a pinwheel X elevation, from exceptional ammunition, will help a shooter stay in the 10 ring even when the wind is not properly countered.
 
Re: Weighing brass into groups worth it?

Thanks for the replies. I started worrying about this issue because I have a lot of once-fired Lake City brass with various years' headstamps, and I wondered whether it would be possible to load match quality ammo with it and how.

I think I understand why attempts to measure the correlation between case weight and capacity are unsuccessful. First of all, as mentioned, the measurement would have to be done after the case is fired in a single rifle. Secondly the technique of measuring case volume using the weight of water it holds is not very sensitive. Case weight is more sensitive, I think.

The technique I am familiar with to measure case volume is to weigh the case empty and then weigh it filled with water; take the difference and use the fact that water has density of 1gm/cm3 (15.4 grains/cm3). But it takes only 1 grain of water to displace the same volume as 8.5 grains of brass. If one case is 8.5 grains heavier than another, then the water capacity will be only 1 grain different. To measure a 1 grain difference between full and empty with 2 standard deviation precision means measuring the weight empty and full, each with a precision of about .2 grains. The balances most use for reloading can probably just achieve this precision, but the surface tension of water and dissolved air make it difficult to fill a case with this precision. There can be air bubbles in the water (does the primer pocket trap an air bubble one time but not the next time), and one can overfill the case a little bit and the water doesn't run out, it just bulges out (meniscus). 8.5 grain difference in case weight is a large variation for quality new brass, but even this large difference is hard to measure using water. I suppose one could cook the water to drive out the air and add some surfactant (detergent) to reduce the surface tension and thereby fill the cases more accurately, but who does that? Maybe there is a better method to measure case volume I haven't heard about, since I am new to precision shooting. But based on this analysis it seems that for cases of consistent manufacture, the weight will be a more sensitive way to determine the capacity than trying to measure capacity with water.

There are plenty of reports on the web that for quality cases weighing and sorting is unnecessary. I think this is also understandable. Even if the case volume differs a couple percent, the effect on the specific impus (which directly relates to the muzzle velocity is much smaller). My cartoonish picture of the combustion process is as follows (some expert can please correct my misconceptions):

1) primer goes bang and powder starts burning
2) very soon thereafter the bullet is pressed against the barrel lands and pressure builds sufficiently to defrom the bullet sufficiently that it can start moving down the barrel
3) the powder burns for roughly 0.3 milli-seconds, the gas pressure rises roughly linearly with time reaching a maximum when the powder is all consumed. By this time the bullet has travelled about 4" down the barrel.
4) After the powder is consumed, although the gases continue to burn, the bullet is propelled to remaining 20" or so to the end of the barrel. The gas undergoes a roughly adiabatic expansion and pressure drops as the gas volume increases - but the average gas pressure is still higher after the peak pressure occurs than before the peak pressure. So most of the energy is given to the bullet after the powder has been consumed. The bullet leaves the barrel about 1 ms after the primer fires.

If a case is a couple percent smaller, then the initial pressures will be a couple percent higher, but the difference becomes much less as the gas volume increases. The effect on the specific impulse (integral of the pressure vs. time curve, or alternatively the time average pressure times the duration of the push) and thus on the muzzle velocity is only a few tenths of a percent, which is indistinguishable from many other small effects. So I would expect that controlling weights of cases from the same manufacture at the level of 4 grains would produce no measureable effect on the veolcity s.d.'s.

Mixing cases from different manufacturers (or different years for Lake City case lots) is a different matter, as the brass alloys and densities could be different enough to erase the correlation with once-fired case volume.

In the end I decided to buy some new Winchester cases rather than try to get sort out consistent lots of my Lake City brass. This leave more time for shooting.

Sorry to be long-winded.
 
Re: Weighing brass into groups worth it?

Testing case capacity is like asking what is the capacity of a balloon. The case is simply an elastic liner for the steel chamber.

It expands to conform to the chamber long before the chamber itself begins to expand, and that expansion continues and remains for as long as the bullet it in the bore and pressure is being sustained by that bullet. That expansion is not a constant and corresponds to the pressure curve, which itself varies from shot to shot. Any measurement we make is at best an approximation based on the springback dimensions that only exist prior to actual ignition.

Measurements should be made on fired cases that have had no additional work performed on them.

I believe that there is really only one reliable medium for case capacity measurement, and that medium is the propellant powder I will be using for that load. I use a drop tube to overcharge the case, disregard what falls away, and weigh the remaining charge. That weight gets written on the side of the case with a Sharpie.

After determining capacities, cases are arrayed according to capacity, and the required number are selected from at and around the most dense grouping of similar capacities. They are placed into the loading block, loaded, and fired in relation to that specific order.

My matches consist of two stages, with sighters and scoring shots for each stage. The sighter rounds are selected from the rounds occupying the center of the block, as they will have greatest commonality with those cases whose capacities bracket the center. I start firing cartridges from the center and work toward the end.

This establishes my 100% load density value; and all actual charges are compared against that value, with the caveat that they are only as consistent as the individual capacities are consistent.

There is a lot of thinking about cartridge fabrication that is based on assumptions. One of them is that things happen a certain way, and always do so. We believe that we know the sequences and timings of events, and that they follow a rigid plan. We believe that what we do has direct correlation to this rigid plan.

Would that this were the case, but the very randomness of POI's, however tight, decries these assumptions as at least partly false.

Does case capacity variance make a difference? Of course it does; all handloading variables have significant consequences. But do those differences, once eliminated, also eliminate randomness in the performance of a given set of cartridges? Yes, but only to some degree, not all.

We are all partial slaves to random consequence.

That's why I save the real serious precision for experimental purposes, to better understand real consequences, as opposed to supposed consequences persuant to common knowledge.

I may not be able to explain how and why the presence or absence of a specific technique coresponds to a demonstrable degree of accuracy; but I can demonstrate that it does exist.

I can also choose to apply or refrain from applying that technique in the knowledge that there are compensations that come in the form of more ammo made quicker and easier, and fired with serious application of marksmanship concentration that improves my marksmanship to a degree that represents a fair tradeoff.

It's a matter of recogmizing consequences and their comparative values, and making a choice, or choices.

I don't know if my choices are good ones or the right ones, but I do know they are mine and are based on information I developed at my own hands. I believe that weighing cases may cultivate confidence, but that such confidence may be false. I believe that measuring case volume is more representative, but that it also is not any kind of an absolute indicator of consequential performance.

We do what we can, and some of it helps. Sometimes we don't bother, and what we lose is acceptable in light of other influences. A compromise, like culling extremes, then randomizing what remains, can render a fairly acceptable consequence.

Greg