What’s the art behind hunting rifle accuracy

[Woolsocks]

Wondering if others out there have worked out a good way to get shot-to-shot consistency with lightweight, heavy recoil hunting rifles.

Here’s the issue. Every training video you’ll find here shows folks getting tiny groups by firing 5 or so shots back-to-back without changing position (cheek stays on the stock, eye on the scope, only movement is working the bolt). I’ve never seen anyone shoot a hunting rifle this way. For one thing, a 7lb rifle with heavy recoil is going to move and need to be re-positioned. For another, a magnum sporter-weight barrel needs 5min or so to cool down between rounds (or at least mine do). If you shot them like Eric cortina, you’d have a burnt-out barrel and a lot of velocity spread from shoving rounds in a red-hot chamber.

I can consistently shoot 1/2 or 1/3 moa groups with little effort when I use “range guns” like 6BR or 6.5 creed’s with heavy barrels. You just stay in position and work the bolt with one finger like everybody does in the training videos. Heck, my $200 factory .22LR with cheap ammo and a crappy low-end vortex scope does 1/2moa 10-shot groups with no problem using this method. Getting good 5-shot groups from my 28 nos or 300wm is another issue. I need to shoot a round, stick in my barrel fan, chat with the guy next to me, then come back in 5 minutes for the next round. Some days, I’ll get a great group. Most of the time, I’ll get one or two outliers that turn my 1/2 moa group into a 1moa pattern. It’s kind of maddening when you’re trying to figure out if your load is off, or if you’re just positioned slightly different then your last shot.

Anybody have real-world experience getting consistently when you’re walking away from your rifle between rounds?

 

[jetjock07]

I think that’s why you see most gun manufacturers/gun smiths only shoot 3 round groups with true hunting calibers. No one is carrying a 26” straight taper 6BR into the woods, or at least not very far. Lol. My light weight 280AI is about a 1/2 moa gun but 3-4 rounds max

 

[slm9s]

My two cents, it takes a while to get used to magnum recoil over and over, its mentally taxing. The other thing is fundamentals. (especially important IME is pulling the rifle back into my shoulder with my L hand)

 

[JerkyFreak]

If your rifle cannot handle at least 3 rounds in quick succession, then you should not be using it for hunting.

 

[Whiskey_Tango6.5]

My lightweight rig w/ scope is ~9lbs. There is no point hunting with a 7lb setup if you cannot get rounds where they need to be.

 

[Ledzep]

Combine a bunch of 3 shot groups onto the same target with cooling between them. Believe the results.

If the system is 1-1.5 MOA because of the load or the shooter what does it matter? If you get lucky and pound 12 rounds worth of 3 shot groups into 1/2 MOA are you all the sudden capable of "1/2 MOA all day long"? Ready for best of the west 1200yd shots? Does that translate to you shooting off a tree branch or a rock or a tripod in the field?

Get better at building position, add weight, or limit range accordingly. YMMV.

 

[Woolsocks]

I think that’s why you see most gun manufacturers/gun smiths only shoot 3 round groups with true hunting calibers. No one is carrying a 26” straight taper 6BR into the woods, or at least not very far. Lol. My light weight 280AI is about a 1/2 moa gun but 3-4 rounds max

Are you able to shoot those rounds back-to-back? The reason I can’t “Eric cortina” 3 rounds back to back in my 28nos is the velocity change from putting rounds in a hot chamber. I see 20fps difference when I rack a 2nd or 3rd round into a hot chamber and take 30 sec to line up the shot. Makes sense, as all powders are temperature sensitive to some degree. Doesn’t make a difference at the 100 yards gunsmiths test at, but it’s an issue at longer distances.

 

[Woolsocks]

Combine a bunch of 3 shot groups onto the same target with cooling between them. Believe the results.

If the system is 1-1.5 MOA because of the load or the shooter what does it matter? If you get lucky and pound 12 rounds worth of 3 shot groups into 1/2 MOA are you all the sudden capable of "1/2 MOA all day long"? Ready for best of the west 1200yd shots? Does that translate to you shooting off a tree branch or a rock or a tripod in the field?

Get better at building position, add weight, or limit range accordingly. YMMV.

Load development and training for “real world” situations are 2 separate steps. If you want to shoot 500 yards prone in the field with confidence you can hit something the size of an elk, you demand 1/2 moa at the range out to 1000 yards from your rifle. After you’ve ensured the inherent accuracy of your gun, THEN you practice shooting in all sorts of simulated difficult situations. If you skip load development at the range, the inaccuracy of your rifle will compound with the difficulty of real-world shooting.

Feel like I’ve said this multiple times on this forum. Hunting means getting to match-level accuracy at the range THEN more training on top of that to shoot in the real world.

My question here is about how to achieve step one with lightweight rifles/magnum calibers so I can move on to step two.

 

[Woolsocks]

If your rifle cannot handle at least 3 rounds in quick succession, then you should not be using it for hunting.

Why? I’ve harvested several dozen big game animals. Can’t say I’ve ever needed to shoot something more than once. I’m just trying to figure out the trick behind doing load development for magnum calibers so I can push the range out a bit longer. Not trying to do cowboy-action shooting here…

 

[JerkyFreak]

No hunter in the field can guarantee a 1 shot kill 100% of the time. Shit happens. When your first round result in a gut-shot animal, the ability to put a second and even a third round on target in a short time can avoid having to follow a wounded animal for the rest of the day and/or night.

A 20fps increase in MV due to heat is not the end of the world. It is still well within normal distribution for most good hunting loads. If it results in more than 1/2MOA on target, then your problem is elsewhere.

 

[Woolsocks]

You’ve got a point about velocity. If my ES goes from 10 to 30 cause I’m shooting out of a hot chamber, it’s only 6 inches difference at 1000. It would be negligible at 500.

Sounds like the answer here is to stop trying to do ladders on paper. I guess you could accomplish the same thing by only paying attention to your chrono.

So I’ll “ladder test” by shooting rounds 5-10 min apart and watching the chrono instead of the paper (I’ll loose some accuracy by re-positioning for every shot so I can’t use the paper to look for nodes, but my chrono data won’t be thrown off by hot powder since I’m shooting cold bore with every shot). Then once I’ve found a node, I’ll fine tune with 3-shot groups back-to-back at 500 yards and not worry about the velocity spread. I don’t want to push it to 5-shot groups, that’ll toast my barrel

Ignore the paper when ladder testing, ignore the chrono when fine-tuning with 3-shot groups. Counter-intuitive, but it works now that I think about it.

 

[Ronws]

I have read somewhere that there are two types of hunters.
A) Those who have wounded an animal
B) Those who will wound an animal

And it really doesn't seem to matter about range. Plenty of times a person as FUBAR'd and wounded an animal at 100 yards or less. As well as longer distances.

Even .308 in a cheap poly stock with a whisker thin recoil pad can hurt. So, I put it in an Oryx chassis. But their pads have no forgiveness. Even their cushiest pad is not very, at all. So, I take out a spacer and use a Airtech slip-on. Getting hurt by the recoil accomplishes nothing. Total loaded weight is close to 12 pounds. But, in a chassis, there is zero movement of the action. Total free floating of the barrel. I tried a few different recoil systems on my newest hunting rifle also in a chassis. Gave myself a flinch. If pain is only "mental," then getting kicked in the 'nads is "only mental."

Put the slip-on back on, spent time at a shorter range close to me to work out getting rid of my flinch and get zero'd enough to be on paper at 100 yards.

Saturday, first 3 shots for group were .81 MOA. Which is acceptable for me as a hunter shooting only to about 400 yards or less. 300 yards is in my comfort zone and also about the longest distance I can shoot where I hunt. And I am not shooting more than 3 times at an animal.

Then, after adjusting to get zero, (only had to touch elevation once and windage once, 4 mph wind one whisker hair left of head on.) I shot a 5 shot for gits and shiggles. I had a flier that was me, I squeezed on a movement. That one flier made it 1.16 MOA. I kept it in because me and the rifle are a shooting system.

So, yeah, the problem is managing recoil, especially in non-standard positions, with larger, including magnum rounds.

Maybe another solution, if one does not want to put on a cushy recoil pad, then wear a shooter's pad. To get good at anything requires practice.

 

[Aftermath]

Wondering if others out there have worked out a good way to get shot-to-shot consistency with lightweight, heavy recoil hunting rifles.

Here’s the issue. Every training video you’ll find here shows folks getting tiny groups by firing 5 or so shots back-to-back without changing position (cheek stays on the stock, eye on the scope, only movement is working the bolt). I’ve never seen anyone shoot a hunting rifle this way. For one thing, a 7lb rifle with heavy recoil is going to move and need to be re-positioned. For another, a magnum sporter-weight barrel needs 5min or so to cool down between rounds (or at least mine do). If you shot them like Eric cortina, you’d have a burnt-out barrel and a lot of velocity spread from shoving rounds in a red-hot chamber.

I can consistently shoot 1/2 or 1/3 moa groups with little effort when I use “range guns” like 6BR or 6.5 creed’s with heavy barrels. You just stay in position and work the bolt with one finger like everybody does in the training videos. Heck, my $200 factory .22LR with cheap ammo and a crappy low-end vortex scope does 1/2moa 10-shot groups with no problem using this method. Getting good 5-shot groups from my 28 nos or 300wm is another issue. I need to shoot a round, stick in my barrel fan, chat with the guy next to me, then come back in 5 minutes for the next round. Some days, I’ll get a great group. Most of the time, I’ll get one or two outliers that turn my 1/2 moa group into a 1moa pattern. It’s kind of maddening when you’re trying to figure out if your load is off, or if you’re just positioned slightly different then your last shot.

Anybody have real-world experience getting consistently when you’re walking away from your rifle between rounds?

That red-hot chamber....

I mean, what happens if your first shot is a little off and you have a wounded animal? Are you going to wait 5 minutes or so to allow that magnum sporter weight barrel to cool off "enough" to take another shot?

If so, stop hunting.

Go shoot 3 or even 5 shot groups. Wait a sufficient amount of time for the barrel to cool before repeating another group. If you are really concerned, get one of the temperature reading guns that can tell you just how hot that barrel actually is.

 

[Ronws]

That red-hot chamber....

I mean, what happens if your first shot is a little off and you have a wounded animal? Are you going to wait 5 minutes or so to allow that magnum sporter weight barrel to cool off "enough" to take another shot?

If so, stop hunting.

Go shoot 3 or even 5 shot groups. Wait a sufficient amount of time for the barrel to cool before repeating another group. If you are really concerned, get one of the temperature reading guns that can tell you just how hot that barrel actually is.

I meant to cover that, too.

If the barrel is so thin that the shot has wandered by the third, then either get a rifle with a standard profile or get way closer in.

I carry a rifle that is 12 lbs but that is easy because I can rest it on my gargantuan testicles that produce testosterone.

 

[Aftermath]

I meant to cover that, too.

If the barrel is so thin that the shot has wandered by the third, then either get a rifle with a standard profile or get way closer in.

I carry a rifle that is 12 lbs but that is easy because I can rest it on my gargantuan testicles that produce testosterone.

I have one of the uber light POS Kimber Mountain Ascents in 280 Ackley. It is without a doubt the most inaccurate rifle I own. I hate the fucking thing and it mostly sits in the safe. Kimber guarantees an MOA of accuracy and that's all this thing can do with a tuned in load. It's a real piece of crap. That being said, it does hold 1 MOA, so as far as being a lightweight hunting rifle, it works. It is definitely easy to carry.

 

[wpeach1912]

1: Shooting a true 7lb rifle in a magnum cartridge consistently is going to be extremely difficult


2: your gun is probably a 1 MOA gun (which is plenty good if it is always that)

3: it takes you 30 seconds to line up a shot after you chamber a round? That should be like 5-10 seconds max. Like get on your gun have it where you want it, then close your bolt and shoot

4: if you can’t shoot to your accuracy standards with a heavy magnum, maybe consider adding weight or dropping cartridge size

Actual tips: I think a lot of the difficulty with big magnums is recoil control. Add a brake or suppressor to start, have a good shoulder connection, get something supportive under the rear of the rifle, apply some firm rearward pressure with your firing hand, keep the rifle pad on your collarbone area Vice the shoulder pocket, and have rings that allow you a head up position. Then grip it and rip it because a 7lb 300 win mag or 28 nosler is going wherever it wants in the recoil path…

 

[hlee]

In all my years of hunting, I can remember only 2 animals that stood around long enough for a second shot. My light weight hunting rifle isn’t in a magnum, but the 270 win is still a pretty stiff recoiler- compared to PRS gamer cartridges. My main concern is a reliable cold bore shot. And, while everyone wants to talk about rifles that “shoot in the teens,” a 2moa gun is more than sufficient for most NA med game at reasonable distances. And, if you can’t make the shot, get closer. Every year, middle schoolers harvest trophy bull elk with archery equipment.

 

[waveslayer]

Break the rifle and just wear ear protection. I hunt with a light rifle shooting a Warbird, break it, ear plugs. No issues

 

[Mike Casselton]

Shooting any lightweight, magnum rifle will exploit any flaws in your form.
Proper fit will help a lot, but your form has to be really good.


As pointed out above, your second and third rounds shouldn't be sitting in your chamber for 30+ seconds. 10, maybe.

Letting your barrel cool for 5-10 minutes between shots isn't helping you at all.
With lightweight rifles, do 2-3 shots, then let it cool.


If you are shooting from a bench, get away from it. Shoot prone or in supported hunting positions. Shooting small steel targets is great for checking your abilities and the ability of your rifle.
Doing so will quickly teach you your outer limits.

Put two rounds on each target, then let it cool for a couple of minutes and go after another target.

Your intention should be a center punch on anything you aim at.



Getting 1moa out of a 7# 28 Nosler should tell you the rifle is capable of much better than that. It's just a simple physics thing that the rifle is going to hit hard on both ends.

Accept that and get away from the bench.

 

[sinister]

There's a reason sniper rifles have heavier barrels. First shot consistency is a premium when your targets can kill you at the same distance you're shooting at them.

A friend asked why my hunting rifle is a Remington 700 Varmint. "How many rounds do you usually load in your rifle, and how many shots do you normally take to kill a deer?"

"Four in the mag, one in the pipe. I usually shoot just one."

"Then why don't you use a Ruger single-shot? You're a consistent shot and you don't wound or cripple game."

Couldn't argue that. Use the right tool.

Don't ask the rifle to do more than it and you are capable of.

 

[HMRamateur]

What position are you in where it takes you 30 seconds to line up the shot?

I think you need some practice at home. Dry fire training with IDFTS or DFAT. Practice getting into position and then breaking position after every dry fire. Also try to find videos on YouTube for building shooting positions.

 

[abn31c]

Cold bore, Cold bore....track it and know it.
I've shot a bunch of LW rifles and often going to a lower node will help with consistency. Prior to a hunt I will shoot one shot of my pack at varying distances. One shot, you win or you lose.
.02

Edit to more answer the op's ?
When I say 1 shot I mean one in the am before work and maybe one shot in the evening after work for days or weeks prior to season. This is assuming load development is settled. I use a 1.3 moa target @600 yards. Mix in a 10 or 15 minute jog as you prepare for the shot.
This routine has all but eliminated fussing about the shot once in the field for me.

 

[diggler1833]

Unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of the time the culprit in consistency of a lightweight hunting rifle is going to be the shooter. You punish yourself enough, and eventually your body starts to compensate.

I like to cold bore map over the course of an entire morning...we're talking about ~8-10 rounds with at least 15 minutes between shots. I do have the benefit of shooting this off the side of the house. This keeps me from re-developing that dreaded flinch that haunted me from my early teens.

 

[Ronws]

In all my years of hunting, I can remember only 2 animals that stood around long enough for a second shot. My light weight hunting rifle isn’t in a magnum, but the 270 win is still a pretty stiff recoiler- compared to PRS gamer cartridges. My main concern is a reliable cold bore shot. And, while everyone wants to talk about rifles that “shoot in the teens,” a 2moa gun is more than sufficient for most NA med game at reasonable distances. And, if you can’t make the shot, get closer. Every year, middle schoolers harvest trophy bull elk with archery equipment.

So, are you saying that my one shot group that is 1.5 MOA wide is problematic?

Okay...
I will work on that.

Seriously, though, yes, the first shot counts.

 

[JerkyFreak]

People still not getting the point. The OP first want to develop a high precision load for the rifle. After that I am sure he will be practicing his positional shooting.

Pretty pointless doing both at the same time...

 

[Mike Casselton]

It's very difficult to create a super accurate load if the OP is incapable of it due to the rifle weight and recoil.
My thought is the load is already capable of .5-.7" accuracy.

It's very hard to shoot a light, magnum rifle properly to take advantage of it.

Unless you've shot hundreds or thousands of rounds from a lightweight magnum, it's hard to fathom how distracting the very high speed recoil impulse is.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Hell, people bitch about 6.5 Manbun recoil...

 

[HMRamateur]

People still not getting the point. The OP first want to develop a high precision load for the rifle. After that I am sure he will be practicing his positional shooting.

Pretty pointless doing both at the same time...

Re-read his first post. Guy is asking about consistency in his shooting in order to confirm his load. He isn't asking for reloading help.

 

[Ronws]

It's very difficult to create a super accurate load if the OP is incapable of it due to the rifle weight and recoil.
My thought is the load is already capable of .5-.7" accuracy.

It's very hard to shoot a light, magnum rifle properly to take advantage of it.

Unless you've shot hundreds or thousands of rounds from a lightweight magnum, it's hard to fathom how distracting the very high speed recoil impulse is.

Exactly. All I can say is that if a guy is married to a .300 WM, get one a little heavier that can stand a few rounds. And get a lightweight hunting scope. Dial elevation, capped windage turret.

Or change to a round that has less recoil and medium weight. Such as the 7 PRC or a 7 RM. Even a 7 SAUM might be usable.

 

[HMRamateur]

Exactly. All I can say is that if a guy is married to a .300 WM, get one a little heavier that can stand a few rounds. And get a lightweight hunting scope. Dial elevation, capped windage turret.

Or change to a round that has less recoil and medium weight. Such as the 7 PRC or a 7 RM. Even a 7 SAUM might be usable.

I intentionally upped the weight and mine isn't a magnum. It's a 7mm SAW. Probably not much different than a .308 recoil-wise, but I didn't want mine below 10lbs with a scope. That's light enough for me. I notice the weight more positively with my shooting, than I do negatively with carrying it.

 

[JerkyFreak]

Re-read his first post. Guy is asking about consistency in his shooting in order to confirm his load. He isn't asking for reloading help.

Refer to post #8 and #11.

And yes, he is not asking for reloading help, but for tips and suggestions on how to shoot a lightweight heavy-recoil rifle accurately to check his load. What he was not asking about is how to practice for hunting.

 

[HMRamateur]

Refer to post #8 and #11.

And yes, he is not asking for reloading help, but for tips and suggestions on how to shoot a lightweight heavy-recoil rifle accurately to check his load. What he was not asking about is how to practice for hunting.

Fair point

 

[Snuby642]

Get a muzzle brake, a suppressor or since the op mentioned him, get an EC tuner brake.

A very thick decellorator pad.

Get a good heavy set of bags to shoot on.

Does the game and conditions warrant the magnums?

 

[Aftermath]

Why? I’ve harvested several dozen big game animals. Can’t say I’ve ever needed to shoot something more than once. I’m just trying to figure out the trick behind doing load development for magnum calibers so I can push the range out a bit longer. Not trying to do cowboy-action shooting here…

So...
About 60 years ago my dad and his brother got some "real" rifles.
Dad bought a Browning High Power Safari Grade in 30-06. Beautiful. Made in Belgium. Look those rifles up. Very thin barreled rifles meant to be carried. Utilitarian. The one I have was made in 1962. It was bought new by my dad in 1963 at a PX in Okinawa. He hunted with it all over the globe.
My uncle bought a Winchester M70 in 300 H&H. Just a standard M70, nothing real special at the time, not heavy barreled. It's truly a beautiful specimen.
They would go out and sight in those rifles once a year for sure. In doing so, they would fire 3-5 shot groups and make adjustments as needed and continue until they were satisfied with their zero. Then, throughout the year, they would harvest a deer or 5 and take shots here and there at other targets such as coyotes. Those guys did that every year until their deaths.

Those 2 rifles now belong to me and my cousin and we have pretty much continued that tradition.

I have the 30-06. With reloads tuned to the rifle, it will hold 5 shots (blind magazine full), fired in rapid succession (as in, as soon as the sight picture is right, pull the trigger) inside of a 3 MOA ("pattern") at 100 yards without any problem at all. If I take my time, I can reduce that group to a 1 MOA ("pattern") or less repeatedly and reliably.
This is a rifle that is well taken care of but also used a fair bit. How many rounds? HAHAHA!!! Lets say it got 100 a year down the barrel (VERY conservative estimate because when I was young and this was my only rifle, I'd easily burn 300 a year) that's 6100 rounds.
And yet it still shoots a 1 MOA ("pattern").

The M70 300H&H is same same. Still a very accurate rifle at 60 plus years old.

By the way...I have MOST DEFINITELY had to shoot things more than once...there is that. Bull elk...once I shot a bull in the heart and lungs 3 times at about 50 yards before he fell over (this one was probably dead from the first round). Another time, I pulled a shot and hit a bull sorta high, I took another shot, CDG. Bull Moose...shot a bull moose in the HEAD 5 times at less than 100 yards before he decided to stop walking to us. Got a big muley once, pulled the shot and hit him in the spine. He went down but his head was still up, shot him again, CDG. I have also had to shoot Mule deer twice with a 300WM for similar reasons...not great shot placement for whatever reason. Shit happens if you do it long enough or often enough.

The other point I have sort of alluded to is the whole "1 MOA pattern" thing. Just how far away are you wiling to take a shot at big game such as a nice Mule deer buck or a big bull Elk? Be as realistic and ethical as you can be. I'm confident with all of the rifles I own that I would choose for deer or elk at 500 yards...IF I can find a real good steady rest. Beyond 500 and I have to start evaluating. Even my most accurate rifle, on my best day, does not account for the possible movement of the animal. Plus bullet performance and impact velocity.

Now, if it's a coyote or a badger in a wheat field, so what if I miss a little.

A "1 MOA pattern" is plenty accurate for the vast majority of my hunting scenarios. Not to say that I don't much prefer a tighter group, but in a hunting scenario where you may not be able to get prone, the weeds or shrubs or terrain make a bipod useless, where you may only have a couple of seconds to get the rifle up on a whitetail in the timber or a cow elk or a bull has made you...that magical sub MOA pattern is not really going to help you very much but being familiar with your rifle, being able to shoot with the hasty sling offhand or from a kneeling position over your backpack or other improvised shooting position will help you put meat in the freezer or a rack on the wall.

Sure...if you hunt from a shooting house (like I do now) or have a nice stand where you are able to brace...different hunting scenario...and probably zero trophy bull elk.

Go shoot 3-5 shot groups for effect. This is realistically what you may have to do. If you actually do damage that barrel, buy another one. Otherwise, figure that your grandkids are going to be able to shoot that lightweight magnum without issue.

 

[Barelstroker]

If you guys really want to know what you need to know, stop shooting groups. It's almost a complete waste of time & ammo.
If you want to know how each & every shot counts, grab a piece of A4, stick a dozen 1/2" orange sticker dots, 3 columns of 4 rows & fire one shot per dot. Allow as much time between shots as you feel is realistic. You might even shoot 2 or maybe 3 dots fast to simulate backup shots or, just shoot each dot after completely upsetting & repositioning yourself to simulate hunting conditions.
After studying all 12 shots, you should see where there is a general POI to POA offset &, you get a much more realistic indication of what you & your rifle can really do.
Group shooting is for F class & BR shooters. It benefits no one else.

 

[Ronws]

@Aftermath at post #34

Hitting the nail on the head. Checking zero this last Saturday at a range I have not been to in quite a long time. First zeroed at a 20 yard range close to me and working out some kinks in my skills.

So, first three shots are what matters most for me from a "cold" rifle. (70 F is not cold but at least the rifle is not cooking.) And my first 3 shots were .83 MOA on a solid table seated in a chair. 4 mph variable wind almost directly in front. So, the rifle has at least enough precision for the range of shots I might make (no farther than 400, more likely less than 300 yards.)

Then, after adjusting for zeo, I did 5 shots and included a flier that really was me. And that was 1.16 MOA at 102 yards. Me and the rifle are a system. So, in a realistic hunting scenario, I would consider myself to be probably a 2 MOA shooter, altogether. Which means I need to get as close as possible with as steady a position as possible.

That being said, I normally hunt with a tripod. So, but against my shoulder, off hand supporting the butt, cheek on the comb. Bipod on a table. So, for me, .81 MOA is a nice number because I am a little closer to actual hunting situations than if I was using a lead sled.

For me, I would look at what else I might could do without in order to carry the rifle.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Sounds like it's too much gun for you. Downsize in caliber until you can manage it and work up from there.

 

[cramfarm]

Combine a bunch of 3 shot groups onto the same target with cooling between them. Believe the results.

If the system is 1-1.5 MOA because of the load or the shooter what does it matter? If you get lucky and pound 12 rounds worth of 3 shot groups into 1/2 MOA are you all the sudden capable of "1/2 MOA all day long"? Ready for best of the west 1200yd shots? Does that translate to you shooting off a tree branch or a rock or a tripod in the field?

Get better at building position, add weight, or limit range accordingly. YMMV.

I agree with you I do all my load testing prone with a sling and when I get 5 shot 1/2 min to 3/4 min groups I am happy because somewhere in between 1/2 an 5/8 min groups is my ability to shoot prone with a sling which is how I hunt and compete so what difference does it make if the rifle would shoot better than that because I don't think I can probably shoot any better than 1/2 to 5/8 min.

 

[PB&J.]

Load development and training for “real world” situations are 2 separate steps. If you want to shoot 500 yards prone in the field with confidence you can hit something the size of an elk, you demand 1/2 moa at the range out to 1000 yards from your rifle. After you’ve ensured the inherent accuracy of your gun, THEN you practice shooting in all sorts of simulated difficult situations. If you skip load development at the range, the inaccuracy of your rifle will compound with the difficulty of real-world shooting.

Feel like I’ve said this multiple times on this forum. Hunting means getting to match-level accuracy at the range THEN more training on top of that to shoot in the real world.

I think this right here is the problem. What happens on target, whether it be paper, steel, or game, is the result of rifle and shooter working together as a whole, not as two seperate components. Attempting to assess them seperately is counter productive and doesn't change the end result down range.

Think about it, what is the point of a rifle that can shoot in the 0.1's at 100yds if the shooter is only capable of driving the system as a whole into 0.8-1.3" in it's end use scenario? Add wind into the mix at distance and the rifle's inherent accuracy is totally eclipsed by a multitude of field/shooter induced errors.

Chris Way has some very good information on exactly this scenario (shooter bracket, shooter influence, and low hanging fruit) and is where you want to start looking for an answer.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Poor fundamentals is the issue. Gas guns and magnums are where the "rubber meets the road" so to speak.

Your lightweight magnum rifle is recoiling inconsistently do to your inconsistent recoil management. You'll need to work this out before you can achieve anything else. One shot the rifle moves slightly more to the right than the last shot and you notice that on paper. The added recoil from larger round or lighter rifle moves it more than the 6mm pop gun that you're able to muscle enough to stop it from moving so much during recoil.


If you want a sure way to isolate things, buy/build a rail like you see benchrest rail gunners use and then put arca clamps or similar on top to hold your rifle......or buy something like a Ransom rifle testing rest. Test your factory or hand load ammo with the rest that is as close to 100% consistent as you'll be able to achieve. This will show you what the rifle an ammo is capable of.

Then work on your fundamentals until you're close to that performance.


You can do it with cheaper and easier to shoot 6mm type rifles as well. For example, while you're personally shooting say .6moa, the rest is shooting .3moa (just making up numbers), so you need to work on your fundamentals until you are close to the .3moa.



We see this constantly with customer rifles or at classes. Everyone prints small groups with 6mm. As soon as gas guns or lightweight or magnums come out, they think there's a problem with the rifle or ammo. It's more than 9/10 that its the shooter's fundamentals breaking down.

 

[Rancid Coolaid]

Have written several paragraphs and deleted them all; not trying to start a flame war.
Get a suppressor, or get some training in recoil management. Short of that, buy meat at the grocery store.

 

[Ronws]

Have written several paragraphs and deleted them all; not trying to start a flame war.
Get a suppressor, or get some training in recoil management. Short of that, buy meat at the grocery store.

Can we shoot the meat while it is at the grocery store?

Yes, I am the resident smartass.

Side story this reminds me of. My wife's uncle went fishing and caught a bunch and gave some to my parents-in-law. My MIL wanted to give us some and I asked her to toss it to me. She gave me an odd look but did it for me. She tossed it to me.

I said, "Thanks. Now I can tell others that I caught this."

Thankyouverymuch.

 

[db2000]

A cheaper Vanguard 300 WBY mag is what got me into reloading. I met a Vet at my range that was nice enough to teach me. Well, I traded Coronas for the education to be fair. We’re now friends and still hang out and shoot together. He also replaced my trigger with a Timney. Just doing this made me an MOA shooter with the gun that I was 1.5 at best shooting factory ammo. I killed an elk at 515 yd that year and was hooked on reloading. It’s not going to shoot 10 shot groups but 3 is fine. Cold shot is consistent and so are follow ups. Interestingly enough, I actually watched the elk fall forward on the first shot. I was so jacked up I don’t even remember the recoil. At that point, I could never stay on target through the scope with that rifle. Hell, probably couldn’t now either.

 

[7mm-08 Freak]

In reply to the original post. I stopped shooting those cigarette barrel rifles and magnum calibers. I had a 28 Nosler with a cigarette barrel and it was worthless after the second or third shot like you’re talking about the recoil was horrendous. I sold that gun to some guy going on a bear hunt in Alaska. I’ve gotten over to the carbon fiber barrel guns in what I consider more normal cartridges. I’ve gotten REALLY good with a 7mm-08 that Gun will kill anything out to 500 yards that may not be the answer you’re looking for but in my mind if I can’t get closer than 500 I need to work on my stalking skills. Another option might be put a can on that sucker that’s kicking your head off all of my gun shoot way better with a suppressor than they do without one. But having said all that I do feel your pain. It is mighty aggravating to try to shoot like some of these Internet sensations on YouTube with a hunting gun I would dare say it’s almost next to impossible. My solution is I’ve gone down to a smaller cartridge with a carbon barrel and stick a suppressor on it. Oh I almost forgot Bix-N-Andy triggers are the bomb!

 

[stello1001]

On my dads super light pencil barrel 270, I'm not confirming zero with 5 round groups. Last time I checked, it put 3 rounds very very small. Maybe about half inch group. Thats more than enough for me to know it'll kill a deer. I'm also not on here saying or calling ir half moa all day.

On my loaner grendel bolt rifles, different story. Although they are light, there is enough meat on the barrels to have threads on them. I'll do 5 shot groups but now we're back to a soft recoiling rifle.

 

[Ronws]

As for MOA gurantees, I agree with others here. If you can manage 1 MOA or less for 3 shots, that is what you need for hunting.

Which means some hunting rifles, especially budget brands, were not meant to be 1 MOA all day, if 5 to 10 round groups are indicative of that.

 

[45-90]

I bought the cheapest Rem 700 magnum ADL I could find on sale $540 out the door in 300 WM...I just wanted the action.
Before taking off the factory barrel, I wondered... How accurate is todays new factory Rem 700 rifle?
To give the skinny 26" factory barreled action the best effort to achieve accuracy...I installed a muzzle brake and put it in an aluminum chassis.
Everything else stock. No factory ammo but handloads with imr 7828 and 200 SMK closed nose bullets.
The new detachable mag in tbe aluminum chassis allowed for 3.7" COAL to get the long profiled high BC bullets close to the lands.
Shot 5 shots without letting it cool just one after the other. All 5 went into a half inch first 5 shot group.
But it most always put the first 3 into almost the same hole....like .284" for 3 shots here was common. I also abused the piss out of it ran 200 SMK at 3280 fps with the long COAL. Too hot as the case is marked up as max...but 3200 was possible.
So take a factory magnum, put it in an aluminum chassis, add a muzzle brake, get the chassis that will allow extra long
cartridges, to be fead from long center feed mags, so one can seat the bullets out near the lands, and add more powder if ya want.
Alot of difference between 3.340" and 3.7" or 3.8" for LR bullets.
So there is a $540 Rem 300 WM capable of 1/4" 3 shot groups or 5 into 1/2" with the bullets it likes seated out and properly bedded, or chassis with a high dollar scope because I can barely see...actually begin shooting left handed because of bad eyesight in right eye, and why a shot may be a bit misplaced, possibly the shooter and not the cheap rifle.
The rifle is now a 510 whisper with a Lapua mag bolt face...but I still have the factory 300 mag barrel, I threaded 5/8 X 24.
And a factory walnut stock 350 Rem Mag model 7 pillar bedded will do about the same, with altered to feed 2.910" cartridges from the mag. It also has a muzzle brake, and weights 7 lbs 2 oz shooting 250 gr at 2626 fps from a 20" barrel or 200 gr Barnes at 2940 fps.
Factory barrels are pretty accurate for at least 3 shots as fast as one can work the bolt...shouldn't need more to bring down most animals one would be shooting.
I have a fair amount of bolt action target rifles, but always killed every head of big game with a factory rifle. Mostly pillar bedded walnut, light weight in magnum calibers, and only added muzzle brake as I got older.

 

[chungus]

I hate lightweight high recoil rifles. I shoot a ton and have for over 40 years. My dad picked up a Ruger 300 mag with the boat paddle stock and the pencil barrel. He said it kicked too much and wanted me to have it. I shot that thing 4 times and never wanted to touch it again. It wasn’t like I was crying or anything but it kicked so damn hard that it was impossible to focus on making a good shot because you were anticipating the recoil.

As long as the recoil isn’t bad I really don’t notice much difference in my abilities with light vs heavy rifles. I have a couple ultralight hunting rifles in 6 arc and 6 dasher that I can shoot just as good groups with as I can with 20 lb plus ATXs.

 

[Barelstroker]

Wondering if others out there have worked out a good way to get shot-to-shot consistency with lightweight, heavy recoil hunting rifles.

Here’s the issue. Every training video you’ll find here shows folks getting tiny groups by firing 5 or so shots back-to-back without changing position (cheek stays on the stock, eye on the scope, only movement is working the bolt). I’ve never seen anyone shoot a hunting rifle this way. For one thing, a 7lb rifle with heavy recoil is going to move and need to be re-positioned. For another, a magnum sporter-weight barrel needs 5min or so to cool down between rounds (or at least mine do). If you shot them like Eric cortina, you’d have a burnt-out barrel and a lot of velocity spread from shoving rounds in a red-hot chamber.

I can consistently shoot 1/2 or 1/3 moa groups with little effort when I use “range guns” like 6BR or 6.5 creed’s with heavy barrels. You just stay in position and work the bolt with one finger like everybody does in the training videos. Heck, my $200 factory .22LR with cheap ammo and a crappy low-end vortex scope does 1/2moa 10-shot groups with no problem using this method. Getting good 5-shot groups from my 28 nos or 300wm is another issue. I need to shoot a round, stick in my barrel fan, chat with the guy next to me, then come back in 5 minutes for the next round. Some days, I’ll get a great group. Most of the time, I’ll get one or two outliers that turn my 1/2 moa group into a 1moa pattern. It’s kind of maddening when you’re trying to figure out if your load is off, or if you’re just positioned slightly different then your last shot.

Anybody have real-world experience getting consistently when you’re walking away from your rifle between rounds?

As tempting & convincing as all these 1/2 MOA heavy recoiling rifles that you see may be, don't fall for the BS.
For a start, you've no idea how many groups were shot before that magical 1/2 MOA group materialized &, ain't nobody gonna tell you about all the groups that didn't make the cut.
The next most important consideration is the reality of the situation. Nobody shoots groups when hunting &, nobody ever, anywhere or at any time can ever prove or, has any idea if themselves & their rifle came within 2 or 3 MOA of where they were aiming, in the heat of the moment on the 1st shot or any subsequent shots.
As I & others have stated before, don't test yourself & your rig shooting groups. Instead, set yourself 5 or 10 separate 1"or 2" coloured dots & shoot 1 shot per dot. Don't worry about any relationship between shots, only look at the relationship between the POA & each individual POI. Assessing your rifle & riflemanship this way tells you everything that is important to know about what you can expect at what distance.
Group shooting is only applicable to BR & F class shooters & has little to no benefit for hunters.

 

[45-90]

I shoot alot of heavy recoiling rifles including the 50BMG, which on my 70th birthday I fired 70 times.
The no braked, 416 Rigby 400 gr at 2600 fps makes the 300 Win Mag feel like a light recoiling rifle.
But these days I tend to shoot most with a muzzle brake attached. My 300 RUM and 300 Win mag have muzzle brakes.
My 6 mm ARC, and 6 mm Dasher have muzzle brakes too, even the 5.56.

That makes em fun to shoot even in the prone position...but you'll have to put up with the blast on the magnums and the 50BMG.

Hunting my favorites are 338 win mag no brake 9 lbs ready to hunt, around 1" to 1.25" shooter for 5 shots.
The model 7 350 Rem Mag 250 gr at 2626 fps Ave or 200 gr Barnes at 2940 fps in a 20" barrel 7 lbs 3 oz, I added a muzzle brake and really like the little model 7. Reworked the mag to feed 2.910" cartridges, pillar bedded, tactical bolt, it will actually shoot some fairly nice groups less than one inch quite often and slightly more accurate than the 338 mag...both factory rifles, the 338 WM is stock except for bedding.