What am I doing wrong? POI shift in positional shooting

[cliffy110]

I've been shooting a .22LR for a while now and have been enjoying the hell out of the thing. It is a great trainer for my centerfire rifle and has taught me a lot. It tends to exaggerate problem with fundamentals and that has helped me tremendously.

I'm a bit flummoxed at this point though. I feel quite confident with this thing out to 350 yards from prone and I've done some work with a tripod and have done fairly well out to 250 on steel. Yesterday, I decided to check myself on paper and was irritated with what I saw.

At 50 yards, my group from prone was centered perfectly on the target. My groups from standing, kneeling and sitting were between .2 to .4 mils low. Group size was only slightly bigger than prone but the center of the groups were all low. There was no side to side dispersion.

Yes, I checked and re-checked the parallax on the scope.

The rifle is a Ruger Precision with a 20" Shaw barrel and I'm using a Vortex Switchback tripod and I'm clipping in.

I haven't done a Kraft drill with it, but if I did, you'd see 3 holes obliterating the center and then you'd see vertical training with the lowest shot probably .5 low.

I'm open to suggestions.

 

[Emerson0311]

I've been shooting a .22LR for a while now and have been enjoying the hell out of the thing. It is a great trainer for my centerfire rifle and has taught me a lot. It tends to exaggerate problem with fundamentals and that has helped me tremendously.

I'm a bit flummoxed at this point though. I feel quite confident with this thing out to 350 yards from prone and I've done some work with a tripod and have done fairly well out to 250 on steel. Yesterday, I decided to check myself on paper and was irritated with what I saw.

At 50 yards, my group from prone was centered perfectly on the target. My groups from standing, kneeling and sitting were between .2 to .4 mils low. Group size was only slightly bigger than prone but the center of the groups were all low. There was no side to side dispersion.

Yes, I checked and re-checked the parallax on the scope.

The rifle is a Ruger Precision with a 20" Shaw barrel and I'm using a Vortex Switchback tripod and I'm clipping in.

I haven't done a Kraft drill with it, but if I did, you'd see 3 holes obliterating the center and then you'd see vertical training with the lowest shot probably .5 low.

I'm open to suggestions.

I do a bench/prone group before and after my positional practice and compare the results. They should all be at least 10 shot groups, and the positional ones should be set up, break the shot, step back and do it again for each repetition. If your zero is bang on, your NPA is off in the problem positions. Try setting up so you have to muscle the muzzle to lower onto the target. If you group Center moves up, then adjust in between the 2. Different holds for different positions is a bandaid. Often shooters do not use enough data to make solid conclusions. This is not a time to save $$ on ammo.

 

[cliffy110]

I do a bench/prone group before and after my positional practice and compare the results. They should all be at least 10 shot groups, and the positional ones should be set up, break the shot, step back and do it again for each repetition. If your zero is bang on, your NPA is off in the problem positions. Try setting up so you have to muscle the muzzle to lower onto the target. If you group Center moves up, then adjust in between the 2. Different holds for different positions is a bandaid. Often shooters do not use enough data to make solid conclusions. This is not a time to save $$ on ammo.

So basically just keep working on achieving true NPA in positional shooting. That's kinda what I thought. I'm very new to shooting off a tripod and haven't exactly got it figured out yet. I find that I have to muscle it just a bit to settle the reticle exactly where it needs to be and with my 6.5 Creed, I can do that with minimal change to POI but the .22 is very unforgiving apparently.

 

[Ronws]

This is the kind of stuff I am interested in from a hunting perspective.

 

[Emerson0311]

This is the kind of stuff I am interested in from a hunting perspective.

I do the reps with Rimfire, including wobbly stuff, so I can use a tripod at whatever level required and bag/glove/toque on top for hunting. Buddy’s property runs out to about 1K, although out there only varmits would be fair game.

 

[Oryx]

I gave up positional shooting right around the time when optics were allowed in highpower, but building a position and NPOA are two separate things. Make sure you're building the position consistently paying attention to support, rifle placement and consistency. I always shot nose to charging handle to allow consistent cheek placement and your eye to line up behind the sights consistently. Lots of details and consistencies matter and it's sometimes hard to find that one thing .... when you do, you never forget it!

 

[Ronws]

I hunt on public land and though my favorite and most secure position is on a camp stool with my tripod and I can square behind the rifle, not all shots maybe waiting for that scenario.

Within reason, if shooting off hand, I need to be less than 50 yards. Bracing in a tree or branch is a little better. Standing with a tripod is better than those situations. Reasonably, for me, if I cannot make the shot securely on a game animal, I will not shoot. And that is where I differ from target shooting, obviously. I may have to scrape some pennies together to rent one of those bays at the more secluded ranges just to set up various positions, most of which I cannot use or replicate at the regular 100 yard ranges near me.

 

[morganlamprecht]

first thing id verify is its not the rifle...idk how the ruger 22 is mechanically (never owned one), but POI shifts with a tube/barrel nut systems happen in some setups because of the rifle

there are some threads on here about POI shifts in gas guns that use similar mechanics...one of my personal large frame ARs would shoot .2-.3mil low ONLY if i pushed the mag well into the bag on the prop...if i backed it off a touch or anywhere else on the tube it was fine

this is a link to a discussion on that...

Accuracy and Upper Receivers.

So in Lowlight's most recent interview with Glen Seekins, Glen claims that on a normal AR upper loading the handguard with a bipod/sling/barricade can throw off POI by as much as "a couple inches at 100y" (at 2:50 in video). Frank seems to heartily agree with this sentiment. The claim seem to...

www.snipershide.com

below is another one on POI shift with bolt guns...

Positional Point of Impact Shift?

Just doing a little research here guys, so help me out. What are your thoughts on a point of impact shift going from prone zero to a bench zero? It seems to be a real thing, but I wonder if it's just shooter induced because of the position change. Thoughts?

www.snipershide.com

If im setting up a rifle that will be shot positional , i set it up physically for that...meaning the most comfortable LOP and cheek riser height for me prone arent quite the same as for a barricade. I run a shorter LOP and lower cheek that what would be ideal in prone. Prone i can run slightly longer LOP and higher cheek piece because im more horizontal behind the gun, but it doesnt fit as well when my body is more vertical/head more upright in positions kneeling/standing. Since im almost always going to be more stable while prone, its easier to compromise there, than fighting a gun that doesnt fit well positional.

from there its just what is mentioned in that 2nd link...neutral behind the rifle. dont put a pressure/force into it while prone, bench, etc that makes it hard to replicate when in a different position, and dont put forces that werent there while zeroing when you change positions. If you zero with or without a pressure bias in your position, then move where you cant duplicate that pressure or add an additional pressure...youre likely to experience a shift. I try to imagine the rifle is there, and im just behind/around it...not pushing my shoulder into it...if someone were to step in a remove the rifle, i wouldnt fall forward or have to re-balance myself because the rifle isnt supporting any of my weight. Im there as a wall to catch the recoil not try to drive it forward.

The most recent barrel i put on a rifle a couple months ago...i happened to verify in 2 positions while zeroing...shot 10 off the bench, then 5 prone...had 1 round left so shot it from standing behind the bench...good to go

 

[cliffy110]

Lots of good stuff here. Thanks all for this. I think I'm going to try putting a Game Changer on the tripod and see if that affects anything. I am not terribly experienced with the tripod and I feel like this has something to do with how I'm using it.