What am i doing wrong ?

[nagantguy]

Rifle is a DPMS upper
Bushmaster lower
BA barrel- 16.25 inch
Aero parts kit
Rise trigger.
Brand new strike Eagle 1-6.

Yes a franken rifle . Getting this mishmash of parts running was what brought me here and she runs well.
So not a precision rifle - more of a DMR (don’t t really like the term, or maybe not exactly sure what it encompasses)
Accuracy load is Hornady brass
CCI primers . And the best node seems to be right around 43-43.5 Varget.
Projectile is currently 168 match monsters or whatever such MidSouth called their bull pack- made by Nosler i believe

This rifle has surprised me with its accuracy for a franken gas gun.

So I’ve shot this rifle a lot this winter and maybe I’m expecting to much

The first target - and these are not necessarily cherry picked but fairly representative of what I get with this load
First target is 43.3 Varget - yes only 3 shot group for this one as the first 2 with this ladder were my spotters . But 3 into .625 and the first shot is the low flyer .

Second target is a 5 shot group for all you purists . 43.5 Varget. First round is again the flyer and about the same amount high this time .

100 yard range - bench with bipod and rear bag. Trying to use all the skills I e learned here and through regular trigger time .
Is what I’m seeing on target just what I can expect from this gasser of none premium top shelf parts ?

Is the 1-6 or maybe because it’s a dreaded and derided Vortex ?

Or is there a know formula/ problem that causes first round flyers ? A possible mechanical problem with the rifle ?

A structural problem with my technique.
I’ve not noticed this phenomenon with my other gas guns or with bolt guns . But I have made this rifle my do everything sorta deer bear boar target rifle and been working on shooting it well all winter .

This is a new optic- a direct replacement for the same that stopped working correctly.it was the older gen 1 and they replaced it with a gen 3 . Before the vortex glass this rifle at first wore an older Nikon monarch of higher magnification and I often noticed this first round flyer but didn’t have the knowledge to really see anything wrong with it 3-4 years ago.

 

[nn8734]

Are you saying .625” is a normal 3-5 shot group for that thing with you behind it?

If so, what’s the problem?

 

[Skg_Mre_Lght]

That's a great group for a Frankengasser. It is a known phenomena for gassers to have a first round flyer (not always). The theory is that the first round is loaded into the chamber differently from the rest because of action speed, etc.

 

[nagantguy]

I guess no real problem, but I’ve seen some lots actually of those little bug hole groups here at at the range and I was wondering why - any way to remedy that first shot high or low flyer I’ve seemed to be cursed with.

 

[Molon]

That's a great group for a Frankengasser.

Well, if we're going to use piss-ant, cherry picked, statistically insignificant 3-shot groups to base our accuracy claims on, then my chrome-lined, NATO chambered factory Colt barrels, shooting steel-cased, bi-metal jacketed Wolf ammunition, are sub 1/2 MOA guns.

And my Krieger barreled AR-15s are sub 1/10 MOA guns.

....

 

[Molon]

. It is a known phenomena for gassers to have a first round flyer (not always).

What it is, is an excuse used by people who don't know how to shoot a gas gun. The 10-shot group pictured below was fired prone off a bipod from one of my semi-automatic AR-15s. The group has an extreme spread of 0.54 MOA. Where's the first-round "flyer"?

 

[nn8734]

I guess no real problem, but I’ve seen some lots actually of those little bug hole groups here at at the range and I was wondering why - any way to remedy that first shot high or low flyer I’ve seemed to be cursed with.

Stop obsessing over that kind of shit, its counter productive. If you’re having a real problem (ie groups that look like they were made with a 12 gauge, for example) then id start troubleshooting. Most of what you’re seeing is fundamentals execution errors or just limitations of your system.

How does it shoot/perform at 500m+?

 

[Skg_Mre_Lght]

What it is, is an excuse used by people who don't know how to shoot a gas gun. The 10-shot group pictured below was fired prone off a bipod from one of my semi-automatic AR-15s. The group has an extreme spread of 0.54 MOA. Where's the first-round "flyer"?

"Not always". Myself and other very experienced shooters have noted the first round thing, although it is not exhibited in every gas gun.

 

[n2ishun]

Everyone is wrong except for Molon.....admit it guys, we tremble in his shadow.
If not, he'll post dozens of pics that are only slightly related and a few more for good measure.

I mean pictures.....and more pictures.
It's a real shame I don't have, or know how, to use Photoshop.
Oh, wait...

 

[JS8588]

For that barrel and that scope, I'd say YOU are probably doing everything else right.

 

[nagantguy]

Stop obsessing over that kind of shit, its counter productive. If you’re having a real problem (ie groups that look like they were made with a 12 gauge, for example) then id start troubleshooting. Most of what you’re seeing is fundamentals execution errors or just limitations of your system.

How does it shoot/perform at 500m+?

Actually our 300 yard range has been under construction to be extended to 500. And I’ve not gone to the power line break this winter (even a “mild” MI winter is nothing to take lightly). But last year sighting in for hunting season it held 2 inch groups at 300.
That was with the old scope and a lighter bullet .

 

[AMGtuned]

Isn't the "cold bore" shot less of a phenomenon; and more common than represented in this thread?

Isn't that why we always record cold bore shots

OP: I had a .223 wylde barrel that would exhibit similar once. Turned out there was a little burr around the gas port that would sometimes cause a couple shots to be way off. Random, yes. And probably not the cause for everyone, but a statistic nonetheless.

 

[nagantguy]

Well, if we're going to use piss-ant, cherry picked, statistically insignificant 3-shot groups to base our accuracy claims on, then my chrome-lined, NATO chambered factory Colt barrels, shooting steel-cased, bi-metal jacketed Wolf ammunition, are sub 1/2 MOA guns.

And my Krieger barreled AR-15s are sub 1/10 MOA guns.

....

I do indeed plan to shoot more 5 and then 10 round groups . I hope to see if this truly is a sub moa abomination.

I just loaded up 40 of those 43.5 grain loads last night .
I’ve always liked shooting dots over groups and as mentioned above I did get a little distracted by wanting some “one hole” targets to hang over the loading bench .

 

[Molon]

I’ve always liked shooting dots over groups

So load 10 rounds into a magazine and shoot at 10 dots on the same piece of paper and over-lay those 10 shots on each other to get a significant indication of the precision of your barrel and ammunition.

“Quarter” Minute of Angle


Here’s a simple exercise that you can conduct to assess the consistency of the overall performance of your AR-15, ammunition, scope and zero. You will need to down-load one of the 100-yard targets (in .pdf format) that are pictured below, from the links at the end of this article (whichever target you prefer.)

As you can see in the pics above, the targets consist of the images of ten U.S. quarters in a row (or two rows of five quarters), on an 8.5” x 11” piece of paper. The nominal diameter of a U.S. quarter is 0.955”; in other words, it is a sub-minute of angle target at a distance of 100 yards.

Post the target at a distance of 100 yards from your shooting point. Using an AR-15 chambered in 5.56mm/223 Wylde/223 Remington and shooting from any position that you choose, with or without any support that you want, fire one shot and one shot only, at each of the ten “quarters” on the target. In order to score a “hit” on an individual quarter, the center of your bullet-impact must break the outline of the quarter.

The quarters should be shot at in consecutive order (left to right or right to left) in order to more easily keep track of any “collateral damage” (hitting one quarter when you were actually aiming at another.) Take as much time as you like in-between each shot, but at the end of the exercise you can only have ten bullet holes on the target.

As an example, the target pictured below was shot from the bench using one of my Krieger barreled AR-15s with match-grade hand-loads.

Is the performance of your AR-15, ammunition, scope and zero consistent enough to make a single shot on a sub-minute of angle target 100% of the time; ten out of ten attempts? 90% of the time; 9 out of 10 attempts? 50% of the time; 5 out of 10 attempts? Down-load the target and find out!

Links to targets, in .pdf format:



single row of quarters



two rows of quarters



….

 

[nagantguy]

Thank you for the advice and link

 

[samnev]

I would wait until you shoot 5 shop groups @100 yards rather than 3 shot groups, which don't tell me how accurate an AR is, before deciding how accurate the you're shooting is.

 

[nagantguy]

The second group is a 5 . As stated I’d only loaded a few of each node from before and restarted the project this winter . I went to the range with like 16 rounds . And had to sight in a new optic and then did 2 spotters at 100 before shooting those two groups .

 

[bfoosh006]

Molon's "Quarter" Minute of Angle is a great exercise... hitting each quarter after shifting your POA, is far more difficult then I realized.
I learned a lot from it.

 

[Molon]

Molon's "Quarter" Minute of Angle is a great exercise... hitting each quarter after shifting your POA, is far more difficult then I realized.
I learned a lot from it.

I found your first target. Nice work!

....

 

[S197]

That's a great group for a Frankengasser. It is a known phenomena for gassers to have a first round flyer (not always). The theory is that the first round is loaded into the chamber differently from the rest because of action speed, etc.

This is not true, and each round from first to last loads the same way…. Unless you drop one by hand into the chamber

 

[Molon]

Everyone is wrong except for Molon.....admit it guys, we tremble in his shadow.
If not, he'll post dozens of pics that are only slightly related and a few more for good measure.

I mean pictures.....and more pictures.
It's a real shame I don't have, or know how, to use Photoshop.
Oh, wait...

Instead of whining like a little bitch, why don’t you post your first-hand statistically significant data that you think disproves the DATA that is contained in those PICTURES.

...

 

[S197]

Everyone is wrong except for Molon.....admit it guys, we tremble in his shadow.
If not, he'll post dozens of pics that are only slightly related and a few more for good measure.

I mean pictures.....and more pictures.
It's a real shame I don't have, or know how, to use Photoshop.
Oh, wait...

What makes Molans info reliable for ammunition and barrels. Is because he has used the same processes and documentation for at least the last 15 years.

Data with only 3 shot groups is worthless
Changing your methods corrupts the data
Flyers count

 

[hafejd30]

If you’re wondering if loading the rifle causes the first round flyer than try just single loading a group

I had issues with my RR LAR 8 working as a bullet puller. Mainly I’m sure due to my inexperience loading for gas guns and knowledge of crimping and what not. As the bolt slammed forward it would push the bullet forward in the case.

You could always

Measure rounds OAL
Load a mag
Chamber first round
Remove first round
Measure that round to see if it moved
Shoot a round
Measure the next round that loaded from mag
Also measure the one below in the mag

This would give you an idea if the bullets are sliding on you at all.

Or simply cover the flyer with a coin of your choosing and take a pic of the rest

 

[n2ishun]

Instead of whining like a little bitch, why don’t you post your first-hand statistically significant data that you think disproves the DATA that is contained in those PICTURES.

...

Why would I want to post a bunch of pics ?
So I could be more like you ?
I find that terribly bland and simplistic.

 

[Ronws]

Instead of whining like a little bitch, why don’t you post your first-hand statistically significant data that you think disproves the DATA that is contained in those PICTURES.

...

When I see a zinger like this, it reminds me of my little friend, Suki -

 

[DocRDS]

Why would I want to post a bunch of pics ?
So I could be more like you ?
I find that terribly bland and simplistic.

Most people do find math and statistics rather boring.

 

[FALex]

So load 10 rounds into a magazine and shoot at 10 dots on the same piece of paper and over-lay those 10 shots on each other to get a significant indication of the precision of your barrel and ammunition.

“Quarter” Minute of Angle


Here’s a simple exercise that you can conduct to assess the consistency of the overall performance of your AR-15, ammunition, scope and zero. You will need to down-load one of the 100-yard targets (in .pdf format) that are pictured below, from the links at the end of this article (whichever target you prefer.)

As you can see in the pics above, the targets consist of the images of ten U.S. quarters in a row (or two rows of five quarters), on an 8.5” x 11” piece of paper. The nominal diameter of a U.S. quarter is 0.955”; in other words, it is a sub-minute of angle target at a distance of 100 yards.

Post the target at a distance of 100 yards from your shooting point. Using an AR-15 chambered in 5.56mm/223 Wylde/223 Remington and shooting from any position that you choose, with or without any support that you want, fire one shot and one shot only, at each of the ten “quarters” on the target. In order to score a “hit” on an individual quarter, the center of your bullet-impact must break the outline of the quarter.

The quarters should be shot at in consecutive order (left to right or right to left) in order to more easily keep track of any “collateral damage” (hitting one quarter when you were actually aiming at another.) Take as much time as you like in-between each shot, but at the end of the exercise you can only have ten bullet holes on the target.

As an example, the target pictured below was shot from the bench using one of my Krieger barreled AR-15s with match-grade hand-loads.

Is the performance of your AR-15, ammunition, scope and zero consistent enough to make a single shot on a sub-minute of angle target 100% of the time; ten out of ten attempts? 90% of the time; 9 out of 10 attempts? 50% of the time; 5 out of 10 attempts? Down-load the target and find out!

Links to targets, in .pdf format:



single row of quarters



two rows of quarters



….

For some strange reason, my targets are only coming up with JFK half-dollars...not my fault, but the same rules apply, right?

 

[Molon]

When I see a zinger like this, it reminds me of my little friend, Suki -

LOL