What are the fundamentals of spotting ?

[Timo Turl]

I've only ever shot competitions as an individual and notice that there seems to be a trend towards pairing shooters with one acting as a spotter for the other. It is not uncommon for two individuals who have never met, or shot together as a pair, to be pooled together for competition.

Can anyone recommend some reading material, or care to explain, what the fundamentals of spotting are ? It sounds easy enough to sit there, spot the shot and call the correction but I am certain it isn't that easy and is probably as hard to do well as shooting with good technique. I'm really interested in learning about the basics of spotting so that I have a reasonable schooling before turning up and ruining someone elses day.

I figure a top notch spotter can make a hell of a difference to a shooter's success and would be interested in learning more, or at least some basics so that when i get paired up i'm communicating in the same language as my partner and learn good skills from the outset.

Thank you

 

[Graham]

Re: What are the fundamentals of spotting ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm really interested in learning about the basics of spotting...</div></div>Take an experienced shooter and divest him of his firearm. You now have a trained spotter.

 

[Topstrap]

Re: What are the fundamentals of spotting ?

Luckily me and all my shooting buds have shot various types of competition for the past 25 years or so and we know what each other means. I know it's not the "trained" way of doing it but I'd much rather know where my shot went if I missed in either inches (based on knowing target size and judged from that) or how much off it was based on target size. "you are 1 plate right, perfect height" and I know where to hold or adjust for the next hit.

Seems most "trained" long distance shooters whether it be X military or law enforcement trained are used to either MOA or MILS and told what adjustment to make. I know that you are questioning about how to spot for another shooter or understand what your spotter is telling you but it takes time to learn how to do that and hope that you are spotting using something that helps you in judging how much correction to tell the shooter.

Some of the matches we go to they pair up and use Mils, others tell you correction in MOA. Like others have said take an experienced shooter and he will usually make a good spotter. With our inferior equipment we can't see our hits after the shot and our scopes also do not have good enough quality or reticles to give a spot in either MOA or MILs. As a last resort and the one I prefer is if you're not sure just judge how far off his hit was based in relation to the target size and let him make the correction. It's actually a lot easier than most think and is quite accurate. Just make sure you and the shooter are on the same page when calling that miss either from the edge of the target or the center when saying how far off the miss was.

You'll soon find that a very close miss is much harder to spot for than one further out especially at distance. One just under or just over at 700 yards can look the same hitting behind the target if you didn't see the bullet track past the target. It's also better to learn to just tell the shooter if you're not sure where he missed rather than taking a guess. You hate to give them a "no call" but sometimes that is better than them making an incorrect adjustment. It does get easier with more experience, if using a spotting scope try to get the best you can afford since it'll benefit both of you in the long run.

Topstrap

 

[Graham]

Re: What are the fundamentals of spotting ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Topstrap</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...I'd much rather know where my shot went if I missed in either inches (based on knowing target size and judged from that) or how much off it was based on target size. "you are 1 plate right, perfect height" and I know where to hold or adjust for the next hit.</div></div> Of course you see how that would be impossible to accomplish with any degree of precision.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Topstrap</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With our inferior equipment we can't see our hits after the shot and our scopes also do not have good enough quality or reticles to give a spot in either MOA or MILs.</div></div>It's not the equipment that prevents you from spotting the shot.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Topstrap</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You'll soon find that a very close miss is much harder to spot for than one further out especially at distance. One just under or just over at 700 yards can look the same hitting behind the target if you didn't see the bullet track past the target. </div></div>A very close miss requires no correction. You won't see a bullet track past a target at 700, but you might see the trace disappear, which will indeed tell you what has happened.

 

[fargo007]

Re: What are the fundamentals of spotting ?

This is a dynamic that takes time to develop, not just a scripted/rote exchange of information on wind calls, dope and shots. The longer a set of shooters work together, the more they know eachother's high and low points of shooting, how each one likes information conveyed, what to convey, and when to STFU.

--Fargo007

 

[Topstrap]

Re: What are the fundamentals of spotting ?

Graham, until you see what we shoot you can't make those statements. And what we do works VERY well for us at the local steel plate matches. I was just passing along how we do it and that you don't need to always do it the way everyone else does but it does pay to learn all ways of spotting and shooting especially if you'll be part of a team.

What works for you guys will not work for us so we have come up with a way of doing it that does work. We've not been shamed at any match we go to yet. Call it trace or whatever but in right light conditions we can see the streak as it passes the target. Not all the time but we use a KOWA spotting scope. Only been doing it since the late 70s and shooting a lot of steel but I could be mistaken. I also dissagree that a near miss don't require a correction, chances are if you don't then you'll have another near miss.

I will guarantee you that you would NOT see your hit at any distance shooting one of our guns. With a good spotter not seeing a miss don't bother us at all, he tells me where it went and that is all we usually need. We've had other shooters kid us about the way we call misses for each other and even relate it to "1 truck tire left or 3 groundhogs right" but we take it all in stride and just grin.

Topstrap

 

[Graham]

Re: What are the fundamentals of spotting ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Topstrap</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Graham, until you see what we shoot you can't make those statements. </div></div>I'll play: What do you shoot?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Topstrap</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What works for you guys will not work for us so we have come up with a way of doing it that does work. </div></div>I'm not a fan of automatically doing something simply because it has always been done a certain way, but the other side of that coin is that one should not claim a 'new' and 'better' way of doing something without first having extensive experience with what is accepted in the discipline and in the community at large.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Topstrap</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We've not been shamed at any match we go to yet. </div></div>What matches have you been to?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Topstrap</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Call it trace or whatever but in right light conditions we can see the streak as it passes the target.</div></div>It's not up to me what I call it. Trace is a term of art, and that's not trace.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Topstrap</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I also dissagree that a near miss don't require a correction, chances are if you don't then you'll have another near miss.</div></div>Not if you are reading the wind for an experienced shooter instead of diagnosing an incorrect elevation setting.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Topstrap</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We've had other shooters kid us about the way we call misses for each other and even relate it to "1 truck tire left or 3 groundhogs right" but we take it all in stride and just grin.</div></div>That might work for large targets at short ranges, but it won't work for small targets at long range.

 

[Topstrap]

Re: What are the fundamentals of spotting ?

Graham, I don't think any of this is what the OP was looking for. I just offered suggestions to him for what works for us which may not be what he may find at various matches. Sometimes a shooter will be paired with someone and have two different scopes (MOA or Mil) and might be hard to interpolate to each other what each may need. In situations like that we've found that the way we normally spot is very helpful to them.

You asked what we shoot, I know it's not what most on here use but this is as close to what we enjoy and this site has a lot of good info to share and help us to improve. You asked which matches we go to. We shot all last year at Rayners long range plate matches to 1000 yards and we've also shot at Thunder Valley Precision although it was the short course that day.

And yes our method of spotting does work very well for us at long ranges and small targets although you may be shooting a lot further than us and consider what we do as close range and large targets.

Here are a couple links of some of our shooting, it's not posted here for bragging or showing off but to maybe add a bit of credibility to what I have posted. We just enjoy the challenge and still being competitive with some very good rifle shooters. I'm sure you see what I mean about NEVER seeing a hit especially with my son and his 7-08 and his light hold. It just isn't going to happen but it's something we've learned to not care about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRpZUsog_Jo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYrrYSivvGg

Anyway, this wasn't meant to go on like this since it's getting away from what the OP wanted to learn. Best thing I guess I can offer to him is to go to some matches and spot all you can and compare your calls with the various spotters and see how you compare. A good spotter is worth his weight in gold and a bad spotter will have you wondering why you ever took up this sport.

Good luck

Topstrap

 

[Goldbeachman]

Re: What are the fundamentals of spotting ?

 

[Timo Turl]

Re: What are the fundamentals of spotting ?

Thanks guys. I spent some time sitting behind some shooters at varying distances the other day just to see whether i could spot their shots (not always easy into a grass bank, at least not for me), trace and especially wind. When summer comes and mirage picks up that will be an additional factor. Also, i'm interested in knowing what if anything the spotter can do to help prior to the shooter sending his first shot ?

I appreciate this isn't a skill i can learn in a day surfing the web but i do think it is an area that is easy to overlook and one where a really skilled spotter can help.

Fargo, i saw a few suggestions post your recent shoot to have a training day prior to competitions. Perhaps some basic spotting could be incorporated to help the inept and inexperienced like me ?

 

[Graham]

Re: What are the fundamentals of spotting ?

In a competition setting, before the shot you compare opinions on dope and decide on the wind call.

 

[TCA4570]

Re: What are the fundamentals of spotting ?

Personally I would take Topstrap over person I never met.
He has no stock, only a grip.
Been making his first shot count for years.
When I sign guy's up I ask for buddy teams.

Why would I put a newbie with who???

Depends on the person and what they want to learn.

I have no problem putting myself with a new shooter.

If I do my part right we may get time bounuses too.

 

[TCA4570]

Re: What are the fundamentals of spotting ?

The more you shoot, the more you may realize you can do it with a dot or duplex.

Just a matter of working together.

 

[Willys46]

Re: What are the fundamentals of spotting ?

The most important thing is communication. Before you start shooting ask what they prefer. We set a script to follow, it makes sure your both ready and on the same target. If you not ready to spot and your partner send a round you have no call.

Just an example.
Spotter states he is "on target"
shooter "shooter ready"
Spotter, "send it"

Then make your correction in what ever measurements you decide. I work with both guys that have mil and moa. I have a moa so correction are easy to call.

Like others have said, if I am spotting for a guy with not a lot of experience with MOA or MIL I revert to calling it by the actual target size. Half plate up half plate down, or one rock chuck left hold! Calling half plate/full plate is very fast and easy to correct for. I almost prefer it than a moa call.

Beign a good team mate is just giving them what you would want.

 

[GUNZ n AMMO]

Re: What are the fundamentals of spotting ?

Good info, tagging....

 

[TCA4570]

Re: What are the fundamentals of spotting ?

First person calling ready is great.
How can you help your other teamate out?
You both need to be on the same page and target.

How can you decide wind just standing around?
It's always changing.

Making a team of two solo shooters is cool.
New shooter doesn't always mean newbie.

When asked to do sign up I do buddies and teams first.
next is similar gear, or personality.

I shot with a guy for the first time and we got two out of four time bonuses. (missed #3 by two seconds)

Just saying

Look at yourself, not the other guy.

What if he wasn't there?

 

[sniperaviator]

Re: What are the fundamentals of spotting ?

You look at the target through your binoculars (or scope). If you can see the hit you call "hit" (wait until after the clang). If you can see the miss, call it so much high or so much to the right etc. Trouble is, you cant ALWAYS see the miss. It depends on the background. It WOULD help to have binoulars in mils or moa, but they are rare.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: What are the fundamentals of spotting ?

I can usually spot my own shots and when a spotter goes to tell me what happened I usually interrupt them with, "got it'...

But for me, I use the following:

Spotter Up,

Center Hold, 1/2 mil right wind, send it...

The key elements are direction and distance in relation to the main crosshairs.

Then, you can follow up with:

(with a hit) Impact, 5 O'clock "x" off center...

(on a miss) 1/4 mil up, 3/4 quarter mil right send it ...

That tells them to hold up a 1/4 mil and then instead of a 1/2 mil wind they need 3/4"

Or you can say, "add a 1/4 mil right wind" if you don't know what they started with. Meaning they were off the plate 1/4 quarter from center.

Calls need to be made from center and not edge.

 

[He Shoot Me]

Re: What are the fundamentals of spotting ?

Thanks LL, it would appear me and fellow Hide member InTraining need to work on the lingo a bit.

It sounds something like this:

Spotter ready, go for it.

BOOM!

Wheredit go?

F, I don't know...Shoot again.

BOOM!

God dammit, I need to buy a decent spotting scope. Shoot again.

BOOM!

With a better Tripod. One more time.

BOOM!

You could'nt hit water if you fell out of a f@*ing boat.

Bullshit, You're blind in one eye and have a cataract in the other.

Let me see that damn rifle.

F you!

As you can see, me and my buddy almost have this perfected. A special thanks to all of you.....Hahahahahaa!

-Pat

 

[Timo Turl]

Re: What are the fundamentals of spotting ?

LMAO

Paddy and Sean down their shovels for a break.
Paddy says to Sean "here Sean, try one o' dees sandwiches"
Sean takes one and bites into it - "what the hell is in these Paddy?" says Sean
"Crab Paste" says Paddy.
Be Jaysus, where did you get it from" says Sean.
Paddy replies........."I saw it in the Chemist this morning"


Happy Paddy Day

 

[terrygood]

Re: What are the fundamentals of spotting ?

Shoot me sounds familiar. I spot and tell where the hits are. The rest is up to the shooter. My input will only aggravate the shooter.