What Are The Worst Possible Conditions For a Bolt Gun To Function In (sand, ice, mud etc)

[brianf]

Current Tally:

LIST:
Coolwhip..lol
Lava..lol
Sand
Sand (Wind Blown)
Dust Dirt Followed by Water
Silt / Clay (Wind Blown)
Water then frozen once wet
Mud (mixture of sand, veg, aggregate)



there are a bunch of videos, you tubers, opinions running around that all show actions not functioning in poor conditions

of course there are guys on both sides of the fence.

is there a consensus of what is the absolute worst material or conditions, which will screw up any bolt gun?

talking a quality functioning rifle, no banged up mags with old springs etc.

fine wind blown sand?
freezing rain?
mud?
cornstarch?
ive heard volcanic dust is horrible...
anything and everything is on the table

no need to chime in with clearances and such, we all know if you throw a hot dog down a hallway its better than a slip fit.

what do you think

thanks

 

[Powder_Burns]

Liquid hot magma.

 

[brianf]

thanks..ill take what i can get

funny, there is a whole other thread of peopling arguing the exact same topic i posted

but since i want some definitive answers its like a ghost town...as usual

if it was what glass is better on a 4000$ optic there would be 500 posts already

 

[charnicus]

 

[brianf]

so the current list is:

molten lava
cool whip

seems there is a new action every week, there should be the "coolwhip" function test

i think the firearms industry is the only industry that does not have function standards

you can make a action or rifle for that matter, and never put a round through it and sell it to a customer

doesnt anyone else want to know what action can actually take it and keep functioning

AI's the best...if the Caydex functions but the AI doesnt...


before anyone asks: yes i have rack grade, customs, high end factory...and i still want to put them against each other

 

[charnicus]

You should put them against each other and post up.

 

[brianf]

if i get some good ideas i will

but i dont think coolwhip is much of a problem lol

im not looking to start a blog or anything, but i only know how they function in my environment with my dirt

there isnt much clay where i shoot...is clay bad...i dont know

is clay worse than beach sand...dont know

oil vs ptfe lube

there are a milion variables so i figure id start with "dirt"

 

[Hobo Hilton]

South Louisiana, salt water marsh..... Look at what the alligator hunters use.

Hobo

 

[chase723]

In all seriousness, sand is fucked.

 

[brianf]

bottom of post 1 will have a compiled list if this thread get some action

thanks

 

[Ledzep]

My experience; wind blown sand hangs actions up. Mud kills magazines.

 

[charnicus]

if i get some good ideas i will

but i dont think coolwhip is much of a problem lol

im not looking to start a blog or anything, but i only know how they function in my environment with my dirt

there isnt much clay where i shoot...is clay bad...i dont know

is clay worse than beach sand...dont know

oil vs ptfe lube

there are a milion variables so i figure id start with "dirt"

Not to sound rude. As long as it works in the environment(s) you shoot it in I just don’t see the effectiveness in testing for some obscure situation like hot magma, etc. More so likely to fuck up a good action.

 

[brianf]

not going as far as hot magma..he was first on the list

but whats the use of buying a "bullet proof" AI for 8000$ if a 4000$ GAP in a AI chassis can run in the same conditions

we pay a premium for certain traits that are "know" and probably true, why not test them

 

[PJC]

IME...Water is bad. Cycling the bolt in a down pour leading to wet actions and ammo that cant be dried result is blown primers and excessive pressure.

if you have a dirty/dusty rifle and then add water....even worse.

 

[Gustav7]

So heres my two perspectives from two jobs I've had:

1.) Overseas I was a Mk46 gunner.. southern AFG. The massive clouds of kicked up dirt and sand from the 47's wreaked havoc on my 46. It could go from operable to sticky and gritty and sometimes not operable in 60sec worth of brownout. In the end the most effective method was:
-Plastic barrel condom
-Very small amount of grease on only the sliding portions of the bolt and bolt carrier
-Did not cock gun as we were landing like most weapon systems. I waited until we got off and racked it once the 47's took off
-Hugged it like I was choke holding a bear, with my whole arm laying across the side of the action along the trigger group and charging handle.

2.) My career now is as an Arborist and I've studied soil science quite a bit. On the spectrum of size.... "dirt" is made up more of silt and clay as opposed to sand. Silt is smaller than sand, and Clay is MUCH smaller than silt. So wind blown soil that contains a lot of silt and clay (most of the U.S. excluding SW) is going to contain dirt particles 10x smaller. In the area of AFG we were at it was not full blown desert...so there was traditional soil as we know it, and I think the extreme wind blown situation we had basically blew dirt the consistency of thick flour around.... getting into every single crack and crevice of the gun.

Just muh $0.02

 

[charnicus]

not going as far as hot magma..he was first on the list

but whats the use of buying a "bullet proof" AI for 8000$ if a 4000$ GAP in a AI chassis can run in the same conditions

we pay a premium for certain traits that are "know" and probably true, why not test them

Other than it being an AI and the pedigree I cannot say.

But I guess it’s like buying anything else. Vehicles etc. etc. How many Ford Raptor owners do the Baja 1000? I reckon less than those who have incurred frame damage.

 

[brianf]

but there are standards (useful or not):

Gas Mileage
5 Star safety ratings
Consumer Reports
Horse Power
1/4 mile times

they may not translate to the daily commute, but its there

yet in the firearms industry no one even talks about proof loads or action materials/strength

shit, even the military doesnt say what the winning (not even the losing) sniper rifle went through

 

[brianf]

So heres my two perspectives from two jobs I've had:

1.) Overseas I was a Mk46 gunner.. southern AFG. The massive clouds of kicked up dirt and sand from the 47's wreaked havoc on my 46. It could go from operable to sticky and gritty and sometimes not operable in 60sec worth of brownout. In the end the most effective method was:
-Plastic barrel condom
-Very small amount of grease on only the sliding portions of the bolt and bolt carrier
-Did not cock gun as we were landing like most weapon systems. I waited until we got off and racked it once the 47's took off
-Hugged it like I was choke holding a bear, with my whole arm laying across the side of the action along the trigger group and charging handle.

2.) My career now is as an Arborist and I've studied soil science quite a bit. On the spectrum of size.... "dirt" is made up more of silt and clay as opposed to sand. Silt is smaller than sand, and Clay is MUCH smaller than silt. So wind blown soil that contains a lot of silt and clay (most of the U.S. excluding SW) is going to contain dirt particles 10x smaller. In the area of AFG we were at it was not full blown desert...so there was traditional soil as we know it, and I think the extreme wind blown situation we had basically blew dirt the consistency of thick flour around.... getting into every single crack and crevice of the gun.

Just muh $0.02

thanks for the hands on knowledge,

do you think, 47 wash out:

was able to get the fine material in places that regular ground use could not

regular ground wind wasnt able to stir up the amount that a 47 was able to stir up

was it the action or the trigger that would shit the bed

thanks

 

[charnicus]

but there are standards (useful or not):

Gas Mileage
5 Star safety ratings
Consumer Reports
Horse Power
1/4 mile times

they may not translate to the daily commute, but its there

yet in the firearms industry no one even talks about proof loads or action materials/strength

shit, even the military doesnt say what the winning (not even the losing) sniper rifle went through

I bet if you called an AI rep they’d give you the what’s up. I would think anyway.

 

[brianf]

They give some info as do other mfgs, but not details like you/i would want.

coatings
some dimensions
very general stuff like "ice bath"

and understandably so, you dont want people going around trying to blow up actions or dunking it in salt water for 3 months just to show their wrong

 

[hereinaz]

The practical question/answer is what is likely going to get into your action/rifle?

Dry conditions will mostly be the fine dust that gets blown around while carrying and set on the ground. Sand really isn't blown in most conditions, its the fine silt dust particles.

Rain/snow will be water. If you start dry then wet, it will be muddy moon dust. Otherwise, just wet and maybe frozen depending on temp.

If you are really in the wet for a while, unless protected, you can get mud on gear from all sorts of things if you are handling your rifle and without a way to get clean. If you've ever camped in the mud, you know it can get everywhere.

So, I'd test:
fine dust that gets blown around
water/ice
mud with different sizes of particles because it will carry sand, vegetation, even small gravel.

 

[brianf]

The practical question/answer is what is likely going to get into your action/rifle?

Dry conditions will mostly be the fine dust that gets blown around while carrying and set on the ground. Sand really isn't blown in most conditions, its the fine silt dust particles.

Rain/snow will be water. If you start dry then wet, it will be muddy moon dust. Otherwise, just wet and maybe frozen depending on temp.

If you are really in the wet for a while, unless protected, you can get mud on gear from all sorts of things if you are handling your rifle and without a way to get clean. If you've ever camped in the mud, you know it can get everywhere.

So, I'd test:
fine dust that gets blown around
water/ice
mud with different sizes of particles because it will carry sand, vegetation, even small gravel.

soil mixed with vegetation is a good idea, flat surfaces/leaves will not roll off easily

 

[charnicus]

They give some info as do other mfgs, but not details like you/i would want.

coatings
some dimensions
very general stuff like "ice bath"

and understandably so, you dont want people going around trying to blow up actions or dunking it in salt water for 3 months just to show their wrong

Right right.

I like what @hereinaz said.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

It is ashamed that the firearms manufacturers as a whole do not support and take part in the NDIA more thoroughly.
The NDIA has a specific Armament/Small Arms Division as well as a Testing & Evaluations Division

Also ashamed that private companies such as HP White put out Small Arms Safety Examinations and Test Procedures instead of the industry itself. (Although severely dated, lololol)

SMALL ARMS SAFETY EXAMINATION AND TEST PROCEDURES, Feature Articles- FirearmsID.com

Forensic Firearms Identification is a discipline of Forensic Science that has as a primary concern to identify fired ammunition components as having been fired from a specific firearm.

www.firearmsid.com

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Gustav7]

thanks for the hands on knowledge,

do you think, 47 wash out:

was able to get the fine material in places that regular ground use could not

regular ground wind wasnt able to stir up the amount that a 47 was able to stir up

was it the action or the trigger that would shit the bed

thanks

If you've never experienced brownout from a helicopter in general, its pretty rough. The 47's with both rotors and being much more powerful is pretty forceful. Every guy in the platoon had a little pre routine with their facemasks/goggles/shemaghs/shirt/etc. to help reduce the amount of shit would get in your collar, ears, eyes, skin, under your dick lol. It was nasty.

I would zip up my combat shirt like a turtleneck, stuff the bottom of my oversized shemagh in the collar and up over my face. We all had pairs of goggles we'd wear as regular eye pro was useless. Then after the 47's flushed you'd shake it all off and get ready to walk lol.

To give an example of the force of wind and where dirt could get. Our mag pouches had small drain holes on the bottom of them, and we kept mags face down. You would get dirt up through the hole and easily be impregnated onto rounds in the mag 10rds deep. Cleaning out mags was almost a daily thing, maybe weekly at the least.

I DO think that natural high winds could have a similar effect, but no way natural winds are creating that much down force which created like the bottom up mushroom clouds of dust from below.

IME it was not the triggers that had any real issue, it was the bolts and bolt carrier. The first time I used zero protection on my 46, it gummed up pretty bad, to the point where I'm not sure it would have cycled completely or not jammed lol. And for all the Chair-force morons out there, our platoon had mainly worked in Northeast AFG, so the brownouts weren't that bad dirt wise. Southern AFG was a whole different animal.

 

[brianf]

thanks for the report

thats nut, it actually crawled up the mags

looks like im going to drag out a good size fan and blow shit all over the yard

 

[Ledzep]

Location matters, too, for dust. Whatever Wyoming is made out of seems to make shit choke worse than pretty much everything else I've seen. Could just be the wind velocity is +10-20 mph over everywhere else, too.

 

[brianf]

Depending how this all works out I might need you to ship some dirt my way...I’ll pay shipping of course

 

[MK20]

wind blown, fine volcanic sand

 

[E. Bryant]

In the auto industry, exterior components need to go through a combined Arizona dust + salt water spray. It's nasty. Interior parts get subjected to stuff like the "Coke spill test", which is exactly what it sounds like with a 24-hour bake at 85C (about 185F) for 24 hours that does a good job of setting up the sugary fluid into a sticky goo.

There is also a fun thermal shock test that involves heating a part to its max operating temp and then dunking it in ice water, which does a good job of sucking water past any seals. I don't think that applies to rifle actions, but it would fuck up a scope quite nicely.

 

[brianf]

Where can I get some...I’ve seen that before

any ideas why the volcanic sand is so evil compared to other material.
Thanks

 

[Powder_Burns]

eland?

 

[brianf]

EDIT: just noticed it...damn iphone


Elands make actions lock up...I thought buck fever made the shooter lock up lol

 

[brianf]

what do you guys think of dirty action vs dirty chamber

crusted up action with clean chamber vs clean action with dirty ammo dirty chamber

whats worse for cycling/feeding

 

[Powder_Burns]

Dirty action, chamber has no moving parts. Of course with liquid hot magma, wouldn’t make a difference which was dirtier.

 

[Ledzep]

Dirty chamber is going to score the chamber and brass, and if it's bad enough will keep ammo from fitting (diameter or head space) and you won't be able to close the bolt. Show stopper in any firearm. If you get enough of anything (water, dirt, mud) in the chamber to not allow the case to expand it will increase pressure.

Dirty action becomes a frustration more than anything. Fighting equipment on the clock. Triggers can go down sometimes if they get extremely filthy.

 

[brianf]

Chamber wise I was thinking the same

Not closing or not opening/ejecting

Or ripping the ejector or case rim, then having stuck case or loaded cartridge.

 

[Tungsten7]

Vacuum of space.

 

[brianf]

Excellent suggestion I’ll inform Mr musk that a few rifles need a ride on a falcon rocket.

...that doesn’t make the list..

 

[Tungsten7]

Human poop, formed not loose.

 

[brianf]

17 posts and 2 of them are useless

if you want to play around go to the bear pit

 

[Tungsten7]

17 posts and 2 of them are useless

if you want to play around go to the bear pit

Ahh whip cream is such a hard thing for a rifle. I see your real fun. You have 2600 posts and asking a question that is solved by putting sand in a action so.

 

[brianf]

i had to list the whip cream and lava, they got the post moving and kept it toward the top so other members might chime in with actual suggestions

not my first rodeo, if you didnt catch on yet ive done that and more

on the east coast we dont have volcanic ash (as far as i know) so it only makes sense to ask other peoples opinions from other parts of the country

i also havnt been in a dust off from a helicopter in Afghanistan

those events happen

human feces not so much, unless i fall in a cesspool playing operator in the yard

 

[walt willis]

Current Tally:

LIST:
Coolwhip..lol
Lava..lol
Sand
Sand (Wind Blown)
Dust Dirt Followed by Water
Silt / Clay (Wind Blown)
Water then frozen once wet
Mud (mixture of sand, veg, aggregate)



there are a bunch of videos, you tubers, opinions running around that all show actions not functioning in poor conditions

of course there are guys on both sides of the fence.

is there a consensus of what is the absolute worst material or conditions, which will screw up any bolt gun?

talking a quality functioning rifle, no banged up mags with old springs etc.

fine wind blown sand?
freezing rain?
mud?
cornstarch?
ive heard volcanic dust is horrible...
anything and everything is on the table

no need to chime in with clearances and such, we all know if you throw a hot dog down a hallway its better than a slip fit.

what do you think

thanks

YES! All of the above!

 

[Scott Seigmund]

They give some info as do other mfgs, but not details like you/i would want.

coatings
some dimensions
very general stuff like "ice bath"

and understandably so, you dont want people going around trying to blow up actions or dunking it in salt water for 3 months just to show their wrong

not going as far as hot magma..he was first on the list

but whats the use of buying a "bullet proof" AI for 8000$ if a 4000$ GAP in a AI chassis can run in the same conditions

we pay a premium for certain traits that are "know" and probably true, why not test them

There are a lot of environmental conditions that can stop guns from functioning including bolt actions. Accuracy International's primary market is military and police sniper rifles. We do a lot of testing. Testing costs a small fortune and if the primary market doesn't require ultimate reliability, then testing for harsh conditions doesn't get done. MOST firearms are NOT tested for harsh environments. The test reports for the latest AI rifle exceeds 100 pages.

Does it need to work when muddy? Did you know there is a MIL STD mud recipe? Yes. The rifle is completely submerged.

Ready to shoot.

Do you expect it to be hot? Again, there is a MIL STD test specification.

Will you encounter freezing rain?

What if it's really cold?

Do you expect it to be dusty? That's a pretty dusty rifle. There is a MIL STD recipe for dust. Who knew?

Marine environment and salty conditions? Maybe for four sold days without interruption?

Do you expect the rails and sling points to stay put? Lots of shots fired with various rails to test for movement.

A simple but effective test for sling and sling attachment loading.

Maybe you need to bail out of a plane at high altitude and you need your rifle to operate on the desert floor a few minutes later? Could happen.

Do you absolutely need to understand the recoil impulse of the rifle system with and without a suppressor and guessing is unacceptable?

There is also a "Water Spray Test" defined by TOP 3-2-045. The test requirement suggests a rainfall rate of 3.9 +/- 0.4 in/hr during testing. The rifle featured in the above images was tested for three 40-round cycles (120 rounds total) in a real world 3.5 in/hr downpour. No malfunctions occurred.

The environmental tests are only one area of overall testing. There are tests for sound levels, durability in several different areas of the system, accuracy, POI shift. Drop tests from numerous angles onto a thick steel plate. Rough handling and vibration tests, caliber change tests, bore obstruction tests, case seperation tests, etc., etc. The budget for such testing is enough to launch a small company. This is why so few firearms are tested to these levels.

-Scott

 

[brianf]

thats a beat down lol

can you Pm me a link or push me in the right direction in .gov docs where i can find said info?

are those tests universal among sniper communities (nato) or each country varies wildly?

dealing with the FDA i not surprised one bit about a formula for mud

they prob have a batch record of the material lot numbers and validated suppliers form as well

i know fatigue testing is thousands of rounds with proof rounds mixed in which when shooting magnums must be in the 10's of thousands of dollars in ammo casts alone.

thanks again

 

[E. Bryant]

Scott's post gave me a big warm fuzzy about owning AI products. Many of those photos show similar testing to what we do in the auto and truck industry, and they are an important part of proving that a product works as intended.

 

[brianf]

i remember watching a TV show about the suburban (early 2000's), just beating the crap out of the poor truck

70mph in reverse
miles of first gear bouncing off rev limiter

engineer was saying the add tests as info comes in from customers and repairs

 

[6brshooter]

Good post Scott. I was gonna say I own an ai, I dont worry about those minor environmental details.

 

[R.Walters]

There are a lot of environmental conditions that can stop guns from functioning including bolt actions. Accuracy International's primary market is military and police sniper rifles. We do a lot of testing. Testing costs a small fortune and if the primary market doesn't require ultimate reliability, then testing for harsh conditions doesn't get done. MOST firearms are NOT tested for harsh environments. The test reports for the latest AI rifle exceeds 100 pages.

Does it need to work when muddy? Did you know there is a MIL STD mud recipe? Yes. The rifle is completely submerged.
View attachment 7420289
Ready to shoot.
View attachment 7420290

Do you expect it to be hot? Again, there is a MIL STD test specification.
View attachment 7420298

Will you encounter freezing rain?
View attachment 7420301

What if it's really cold?
View attachment 7420303

Do you expect it to be dusty? That's a pretty dusty rifle. There is a MIL STD recipe for dust. Who knew?
View attachment 7420304

Marine environment and salty conditions? Maybe for four sold days without interruption?
View attachment 7420306

Do you expect the rails and sling points to stay put? Lots of shots fired with various rails to test for movement.
View attachment 7420310

A simple but effective test for sling and sling attachment loading.
View attachment 7420311

Maybe you need to bail out of a plane at high altitude and you need your rifle to operate on the desert floor a few minutes later? Could happen.
View attachment 7420312

Do you absolutely need to understand the recoil impulse of the rifle system with and without a suppressor and guessing is unacceptable?
View attachment 7420317

There is also a "Water Spray Test" defined by TOP 3-2-045. The test requirement suggests a rainfall rate of 3.9 +/- 0.4 in/hr during testing. The rifle featured in the above images was tested for three 40-round cycles (120 rounds total) in a real world 3.5 in/hr downpour. No malfunctions occurred.

The environmental tests are only one area of overall testing. There are tests for sound levels, durability in several different areas of the system, accuracy, POI shift. Drop tests from numerous angles onto a thick steel plate. Rough handling and vibration tests, caliber change tests, bore obstruction tests, case seperation tests, etc., etc. The budget for such testing is enough to launch a small company. This is why so few firearms are tested to these levels.

-Scott