What do I do now?

[BillyNg]

This won't be short, I apologize for that now.

July 2019: I plan and commission a no-expense-spared build. Work out details with extremely well-known and respected builder who offers 1/2 MOA guarantee.

Manners PRS-1 (my choice)
Impact 737R (my choice)
Bartlein 20" Heavy Palma in .308 (length and contour my choice, brand is builder's choice)
Area 419 Hellfire brake (builder's choice)
Leupold Mark-5 HD 5-25 mounted in a Spuhr (my choice)
TriggerTech Diamond set to 12oz (weight is my choice, trigger is builder's choice)

(the short barrel here was for stiffness, I wanted a tack-driver and was willing to give up velocity. I wanted a 1/4 MOA rifle. The builder doesn't guarantee it, but the results I see from others with his rifles suggested that this was an entirely reasonable goal)

September 2019: Take delivery of the rifle. Might even have taken deliver in late August .. build went fast, primarily because the PRS-1 was in-stock at Altus.

Immediately thereafter discover that rifle doesn't shoot well. Over the next 6 months or so I spend countless hours pouring over the rifle and spend over a grand trying to figure out what's wrong, mostly on ammo (varying factory match loads since I do not reload). Eventually try custom ammo from McCourt Munitions who is praised both here at the Hide and by the builder. No real difference. Rifle still shoots about .9 MOA on average. Sometimes I get a .7 MOA group, but sometimes I get a 1.2 MOA group. No really common pattern/dispersion to the groups. For those who will ask why I hadn't contacted the builder for 6 months, the not-great answer is that I had an assumption that a custom-build with an accuracy guarantee would not leave any shop without being shot/fired for accuracy. I assumed that the gun was okay and something else was wrong [likely the component that pulls the trigger]. So I went through a lot of different ammo, and re-torquings, and a couple of different scopes, and pulled the brake on/off a few times, etc.

March 2020: Out of ideas, I contact the builder. There are a few back and forth emails and suggestions to try. Turns out the rifle was never fired from the factory and I should have contacted him 6 months earlier ... lesson learned. Builder's suggestions improve nothing. Progress during this time is very slow. Covid kills my wife's father and almost takes her brother. I live just outside of NYC and my wife and I watch in horror as every few days someone else we know dies. Ranges are closed obviously.

June 2020: Ranges are open again, progress continues, nothing improves. Builder and I decide rifle needs to be returned. Not trusting Fedex/UPS or my own packing skills, I drive it to the builder myself (503 miles each way). Within a few hours he confirms that his groups are identical to mine, something is definitely wrong with the rifle. He notes that extractor tension is too high, digging into the case rims. He fixes that. He shoots two groups and they are in the .6 to .8 MOA range. Looks ever so slight improved from what I was getting before, but two groups isn't exactly statistically significant. Either way, this still doesn't meet the .5 MOA accuracy guarantee. Builder keeps at it.

Between June and yesterday, the builder tries the following:

• Different scope
• Sends barreled action back to Impact Precision who claim it all looks perfect to them.
• Glass-Beds my Manners PRS-1 with my permission.
• Cuts a brand new barrel and installs it [that was done just this week]

Yesterday, I got an email from the builder showing the latest three 100-yard groups he shot with the brand new barrel. .452", .600", .792". While he doesn't say it directly in the email, I get the feeling that he has exhausted most/all possibilities and wants me to take the rifle back. [Asks me what I think of those groups, and politely mentions that he's running out of .308 ammo].

What do I do? What would you do? Am I expecting too much? I've had factory rifles (including a semi-auto) that shot better than this, so I feel like for the money I spent, I should have something that shoots ragged little holes.

No, I cannot just write it off and build another rifle somewhere else. No, I can't take it from him and hand it to [insert your favorite smith's name here] who will fix it for me for $X,XXX. Throwing more money at this is the absolute last resort ... slotted after "light the rifle on fire to see if that helps" on the list of possible next steps.

Any help/advice/well-intentioned-comment is greatly appreciated.

 

[Newbie2020]

Ok, I’ve done the math: 0.4 0.6 and 0.8 moa don’t average the “half moa guarantee”.

Probably a good builder but if you guarantee half moa you better shoot it before you send it.

All high end components, my Bartlein in a Rem700 shoots half moa. Triggertech have taken over PRS-style competition due to accuracy and durability.

The builder can reuse all those components and get some $$$ back for those.

Not to be a jerk but I’d ask for my money back or a rebuild.

 

[SporterII]

From your description it sounds like you may have a decent rifle.
Count yourself lucky. It does not always turn out that well.
Make up some ladder or test batch and try to enjoy it.

 

[winniethepooh]

I must’ve missed it but are you a 1/2 moa shooter?

 

[pmclaine]

TacOps.....

 

[Tony1320]

Those are all premium components. I would expect better out of a .308 build like that.

I would have someone who you know can print small groups try it

If he can't get it to shoot well I would take it to another gunsmith to have them take a look.

Your current gunsmith has already bedded and rechambered another barrel not much else he can do.

I think it's either the shooter or you need to find another gunsmith

What factory ammo are you using? Maybe have someone you know try reloading for it

 

[Josh1978]

Maybe you have already done this but I would get ahold of a quality shooting bed and put the gun in it and see if the firearm is capable of 1/2 MOA grouping. Taking the human part out of the equation may answer some questions for you. Just an idea.

 

[buffalowinter]

Cut your losses. Buy a Bartlein/Krieger/ Lilja barrel and send it to LRI to re-barrel. Less than 1K when done. I'm going to guess it's the barrel. IMO that is the most critical part if you have half way decent bedding and bedding isn't rocket science. You're not going to "see" anything wrong with a barrel that shoots 1 moa. You can't take a 1/4 moa rifle and a 1 moa rifle, look at them and say "there's the difference".

 

[jcmullis2]

These things are never pretty. People often believe the relationship with their builder is friendship. It’s not, it’s business. Ask for your money back. He's probably gonna tell you no but ask anyway. Then get with a company like Long Rifles Inc.. If they can’t salvage your barrel buy another and let them chamber and time it to your action. It’ll probably cost you about a$1000 more to have the rifle you want. Maybe less if you don’t have to buy a new barrel. You could file suit against the builder but I’d write it off.
Anyone with a couple of tools can assemble the few parts in these rifles. Most of the time they’ll shoot fine. After a couple of “builds” they decide to go into business and then this happens. I don’t know anything about your “builder” but he doesn’t sound like any gunsmith I know.
Sorry about your rifle. Good luck

 

[BillyNg]

I must’ve missed it but are you a 1/2 moa shooter?

I am, but it being a shooter problem was definitely a possibility. That's why I was happy when the builder's first group's came back and they were identically bad to mine. It should be noted that builder is a known competitive shooter and sponsors a large competitive shooting team (PRS and equivalents).

 

[BillyNg]

Those are all premium components. I would expect better out of a .308 build like that.

I would have someone who you know can print small groups try it

If he can't get it to shoot well I would take it to another gunsmith to have them take a look.

Your current gunsmith has already bedded and rechambered another barrel not much else he can do.

I think it's either the shooter or you need to find another gunsmith

What factory ammo are you using? Maybe have someone you know try reloading for it

The builder is a known shooter and sponsors a shooting team. I've spent about a grand so far on ammo. Almost all of the factory loads were different versions of FGMM in different bullets and weights. I also did a full test-series from McCourt munitions (mentioned in original post) who has a lot of experience with this builder. All-in, I've tried weights from 150gr to 185gr, and many different bullets.

Living just outside of NYC, I do not know anyone that reloads (I don't know anyone that competes or has an accurate stick either), this is why I went with a custom ammo company.

 

[BillyNg]

Cut your losses. Buy a Bartlein/Krieger/ Lilja barrel and send it to LRI to re-barrel. Less than 1K when done. I'm going to guess it's the barrel. IMO that is the most critical part if you have half way decent bedding and bedding isn't rocket science. You're not going to "see" anything wrong with a barrel that shoots 1 moa. You can't take a 1/4 moa rifle and a 1 moa rifle, look at them and say "there's the difference".

Read the original post. New barrel was already cut and put on. That was the last step completed. No change in accuracy.

 

[charnicus]

How I look at it, you either get a different brand of barrel assuming that the rebarrel was a Bartlein, start loading if a new barrel isn’t an option, or accept the sub guaranteed accuracy. I know what I would do and that’s the first option in combination with a different Smith.

 

[BillyNg]

These things are never pretty. People often believe the relationship with their builder is friendship. It’s not, it’s business. Ask for your money back. He's probably gonna tell you no but ask anyway. Then get with a company like Long Rifles Inc.. If they can’t salvage your barrel buy another and let them chamber and time it to your action. It’ll probably cost you about a$1000 more to have the rifle you want. Maybe less if you don’t have to buy a new barrel. You could file suit against the builder but I’d write it off.
Anyone with a couple of tools can assemble the few parts in these rifles. Most of the time they’ll shoot fine. After a couple of “builds” they decide to go into business and then this happens. I don’t know anything about your “builder” but he doesn’t sound like any gunsmith I know.
Sorry about your rifle. Good luck

This is not a 'guy' with some tools. This is one of the most well-known custom-rifle and competition companies in the US. It's a company that's been in business for over a decade. This is definitely not a 'friend' relationship. This has been all business so far. You absolutely know this company.

 

[Fig]

Well, then he probably values his reputation and his .5 MOA guarantee more than selling one rifle. If he doesn't then that will get known fast in this tiny community. There is no builder who has never built a rifle that wouldn't shoot.

If you do end up with the rifle I would do exactly what buffalowinter recommends. I would still send it for a rebarrel from a different MFG (I would go Krieger) and add an inch and a half of length just to make sure there isn't some sort of stupid harmonic fucking it up. If everything is right and it isn't the barrel itslef, then it's probably some sort of harmonic. There's a ton of stuff going on in the split second of ignition and firing that you can't really measure that can cause a tiny difference in angle that starts expressing itself at range. Anyone who tells you there's no witchcraft involved in building a rifle hasn't built many. Some are lasers and some just don't shoot. You play the odds with a builder, and that's all you can do.

 

[ShtrRdy]

It sounds like you and your 'Smith have tried most everything. You guys tried two good barrels.

Quite a while ago I read a thread that was very similar. In the end it was due to the action. They didn't know what it was about the action to cause problems but replacing the action fixed it.

 

[RFutch]

Seems pretty simple to me. The rifle still doesn't meet the accuracy guarantee even with him shooting it. Get your money back and go somewhere else. If he says no then I guess will all get to find out who it is...

 

[acudaowner]

It sounds like it will be a nice gun . best of luck and lots of fun .

 

[godofthunder]

Considered having current barrel length shortened? Go an inch at a time and see if you can improve groups? Would be cheaper than a new barrel.

 

[W54/XM-388]

I'm going to suggest taking the muzzle brake off, putting it in a mechanical rest with a remote trigger release and make sure to have a labradar or similar going to check for ammo consistency, then see what you get. (On a day with no wind of course).

Then I'd run some checks with both your original brake and a couple others at different seating positions, to see if it may have something to do with the brake having an issue or just that combination of weight / length is affecting it.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

If they can’t deliver a 1/2moa rifle with those components then it’s on them. I’d want any parts that I purchased returned to me and everything they supplied and labor refunded in full.

Then spend $200 on a decent torque wrench, barrel vise, and impact action wrench. Order a Proof or Impact prefit and bolt it together yourself. Have your sub 1/2moa rifle and money left in the bank.

BTW your 1/4moa goal is pretty optimistic with factory match ammo and not achieved too often, you really need to load with some serious OCD and good equipment to get in the .2’s and .1’s but it is absolutely doable. Consistent 1/2moa with factory match ammo is easily attainable.

Ohh and order your prefit in 6.5 Creed.

 

[Bandit31]

In one of your other threads, you admitted the brake was causing problems after the suggestion from Mark to remove and test, and then someone from A419 chimed in and offered to replace it, you declined, and left it to Mark to decide what to do. Did Mark or you replace it or did Mark test it without the brake that was causing issues?

 

[Josh1978]

The builder is a known shooter and sponsors a shooting team. I've spent about a grand so far on ammo. Almost all of the factory loads were different versions of FGMM in different bullets and weights. I also did a full test-series from McCourt munitions (mentioned in original post) who has a lot of experience with this builder. All-in, I've tried weights from 150gr to 185gr, and many different bullets.

Living just outside of NYC, I do not know anyone that reloads (I don't know anyone that competes or has an accurate stick either), this is why I went with a custom ammo company.

I would be happy to load up some rounds for you. All you have to do is provide me the data that you want to use and some casings. (if we can locate the correct powder of course. Supplies are limited right now.) I am not sure about the laws surrounding shipping live ammo but if we figure out that part we would be good to go.

 

[BillyNg]

Well, then he probably values his reputation and his .5 MOA guarantee more than selling one rifle. If he doesn't then that will get known fast in this tiny community. There is no builder who has never built a rifle that wouldn't shoot.

If you do end up with the rifle I would do exactly what buffalowinter recommends. I would still send it for a rebarrel from a different MFG (I would go Krieger) and add an inch and a half of length just to make sure there isn't some sort of stupid harmonic fucking it up. If everything is right and it isn't the barrel itslef, then it's probably some sort of harmonic. There's a ton of stuff going on in the split second of ignition and firing that you can't really measure that can cause a tiny difference in angle that starts expressing itself at range. Anyone who tells you there's no witchcraft involved in building a rifle hasn't built many. Some are lasers and some just don't shoot. You play the odds with a builder, and that's all you can do.

Very funny you mention harmonics. I thought about that last night and sent an email to the builder today telling him to lop a half-inch or inch off the current barrel and see if that helps. I don't know what the second barrel is, he just said he was cutting a new barrel (my assumption is that it's the same length and profile as the original).

 

[BillyNg]

I'm going to suggest taking the muzzle brake off, putting it in a mechanical rest with a remote trigger release and make sure to have a labradar or similar going to check for ammo consistency, then see what you get. (On a day with no wind of course).

Then I'd run some checks with both your original brake and a couple others at different seating positions, to see if it may have something to do with the brake having an issue or just that combination of weight / length is affecting it.

Brake was considered a possible issue back in March. Tried both removing it altogether, and Area 419 sent me a replacement. No change at all.

 

[BillyNg]

I would be happy to load up some rounds for you. All you have to do is provide me the data that you want to use and some casings. (if we can locate the correct powder of course. Supplies are limited right now.) I am not sure about the laws surrounding shipping live ammo but if we figure out that part we would be good to go.

That's incredible nice of you to offer, thank you. I don't need it at this point, as I'm working with a custom ammunition maker who has already sent me over a dozen different loads (two different bullets, varying powder levels and I believe seating depths). Additionally, I don't have the rifle. Builder has had it since the last week of June.

 

[morganlamprecht]

know anyone else with a verified, reliable impact build?

you could screw the barrel on their setup just to try and isolate barrel vs rest of the system

i know on my multiple impacts i can swap the barrels around on them and they shoot similar regardless of the action its on

i saw a different scope was mentioned...has a different mount been tried? ive seen a top end rifle barely shooting 1moa (with everything tight and verified), then switch rings and its shooting ragged holes

 

[jcmullis2]

Since he’s a reputable gunsmith he should give you your money back without a problem. I’d get my money back and start fresh if shortening it doesn’t help. The builder got a bad one and that happens from time to time. Thank goodness it’s he got a bad one and not you got a bad one. I’m sure it’ll work out for you and you’ll get the rifle you want. Good luck

 

[generalzip]

I’d ask for my money back at this point. If that doesn’t happen then I’d follow Morgan’s advice and try another action you know shoots. I have 3 impacts with a 4th on the way and they all shoot absolutely lights out. I’d be amazed if the action is your problem. I’d be thinking it’s something with the mount/scope. Did you try different rings/mount? Also I’ve noticed some barrels simply do not like certain bullets or powders. It’s just a fact of life. Even the big name brands can be picky sometimes. I’d try berger hybrids with varget in a lapua case with BR2 primers and a new scope and mount. If that doesn’t shoot .5” or better then get your money back because it’s the rifle.

 

[MakeSawdust]

There have been some hints as to who it is. I would think with the volume of work they do they would want to just start over and build an identical rifle to salvage there reputation. In my experience, most of the guys that are involved in this are pretty good guys or fake it well. If they are not, they get outed. This is a very small tightly knit community. If you make a living in it and burn bridges, life is going to get pretty hard. I would leave it with the builder to deliver a half moa gun that is the same spec as the original within a reasonable time frame. I would be very cordial about it until that deadline. At that point I would become more insistent. My guess is as stated above. There is some minuscule voodoo magic problem that is nearly impossible to find causing the problem. It could be a defect in the action, stock, bottom metal, etc. that would require inspection equipment that is not a normal part of the industry to find the problem. It would likely be cheaper for the smith to start over and build a new gun unless he has a wizard mentor he can go to.

I would ask him to build another rifle, as he can obviously build guns, and have him provide evidence of progress. Give him a while to source the components (my guess is another stock might be hard to source unless someone has one in-stock and for sale). After the components are in, give him a couple weeks to build the gun. The original can become his personal project, or he can trash it, his choice. My guess is, the second rifle will shoot to expectations. As a builder, once in a while you have to eat a project. It is part of being in business.

I have had a small town gunsmith eat a barrel to make the situation right. The reamer was oversized at the base and it was not caught until I tried to resize my fired brass. I do not know if the gunsmith or the reamer company paid for it, but I was not given the run around at all. The situation was simply taken care of without a hassle. That barrel also shot groups in the .3's with no load development during break-in.

It sounds like the gunsmith is trying. I would ask for a build that meets the accuracy guarantee, and let him know that, if necessary, you will wait for him to source new components to build another identical gun. He likely has much of it on hand, but may have to wait on the stock.

Suggestions to rule things out would be to put the gun in a chassis and see if it will shoot. Put the barrel and action in the lathe and check for concentricity errors. My guess is that maybe some of this has already been done. Also, could put the barrel in another impact action build to see if it will shoot there. It might not find the cause, but it might narrow down where you need to look.

 

[SporterII]

There is another clue. one already covered here.
If the barrel was in fact swapped out, the scope mounting system was also re constructed. You statethe gun shoots better now.
I got a pos from someone that knows better too. I did not out him.
I regret my decision. I got no return call, zip. Chamber bulged brass on one side and action was lapped only.
two year wait”on the rack”. “I promise you”.
good luck with yours. Sounds close.

 

[hlee]

Seems pretty simple to me. The rifle still doesn't meet the accuracy guarantee even with him shooting it. Get your money back and go somewhere else. If he says no then I guess will all get to find out who it is...

This. 1000%...

What do you do? Get your money back. He has a 0.5 moa guarantee. The rifle does not shoot to the guarantee. He has not delivered on his part of the deal. Stop wasting time and ammo on this rifle. Neither of you have shown it to shoot, even though this guy is a world class shooter. If everyone knows him, he’ll be interested to make this right. As someone said, the precision rifle community is small and word gets around- fast.

 

[Wheres-Waldo]

Send it to Clays Cartridge Company.

They do load development for customers rifles and request the rifle to be on hand.

If they can’t develop a load to shoot at 1/2 MOA, you at least know it’s the rifle and not you. At that point send it back and recoup what $ you can.

 

[dirthead1]

Search the OP's posting history. He lays out virtually the same story in another thread and names the builder. I'm not saying he does or does not have a legitimate issue, just trying to give you guys a clue that there is another thread about this and the maker is named, along with some other info.

**edit**

Here, I'll just link it. https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/rifle-issue-update-thread.7014513/

 

[OG10]

I was in your shoes, and know how frustrating this can be.Don't give up I eventually went to a different shop had them set back the barrel and this fixed my problem, I'm not saying this will fix the issue in your rifle.The smith has a 1/2 moa guarantee tell him that is what you want, or refund the money you paid him, and return your parts.My opinion only.

 

[BillyNg]

In one of your other threads, you admitted the brake was causing problems after the suggestion from Mark to remove and test, and then someone from A419 chimed in and offered to replace it, you declined, and left it to Mark to decide what to do. Did Mark or you replace it or did Mark test it without the brake that was causing issues?

Yeah, that was a fluke and requires a short story to explain:

The recommendation to pull the brake off entirely was made after Covid had struck. All ranges were closed, and so we didn't get a chance to actually test it for a couple of months. I got an email in either May or June that my range was opening back up, and I made sure that I was there on opening day, excited to pull the brake and see if that was the problem.

When I got there at 08:20 (range opens at 08:30), it was explained to me that due to new social-distancing rules, the facility had to drastically reduce the number of ports/lanes and because of that, each shooter was restricted to only 1 hour, and time slots were handed out on a first-come first-serve basis. I got lucky, I was the 2nd to last person who could slot in at 08:30 for the 200 yard range.

I got to the range about 8 minutes before my slot (8 minutes before any shooting could start). But the people before me had already driven down and put up their targets, and the range master had closed off the access road. I couldn't put up any targets. Next target change was at 09:00. By the time everyone ceased fire, got in their cars, changed out their targets, drove back and cleared the range to go hot ... it was about 09:15. The scope was not zero'd since I had pulled apart during the Covid downtime to check torque and for anything that looked 'off', so I zero'd it in 3 shots (shooting at 60 second intervals trying not to heat up the barrel), and then fired off two 5-shot groups. One with the brake on, one with the brake off. At this point it was 09:30, my time was up, and had to drive home (especially hurtful given it's over an hour drive each way to my range)

The brake-off group was fantastic, just over 1/4 MOA. I thought we had this thing licked. Emailed the builder, also updated that thread (the exact post you are referring to). Area 419 saw the post/thread here on the Hide, and sent me a note apologizing and offering to send me a new brake which they did seemingly immediately (they are an amazing company!). By the time I got the brake and could get back to the range, the time limits at the range had been removed.

By my third round with the new brake, it was clear that I was looking at a 1 MOA group in my scope. So I pulled that new brake off and tried to lay down a control group, and by the second round in that group, I knew we had a problem. I spent the next 3 hours putting together a few of the best groups I possibly could. Again, the groups are all over the place. Most fall in the .7 to .9 MOA range, but every now and again there's a 1.5 MOA group, or a .4 MOA group. That .26 MOA group from the previous range visit was a fluke, never to be repeated again.

At this point I figured that the shooter was likely the problem, and was looking forward to the rifle being in good hands (builder) and let him check it out and more importantly, shoot it. His first 5 groups out of the rifle were identical to mine. He noticed the extractor tension issue and fixed it, then shot two groups that were .6 and .7 MOA I believe which was slighter better than the first 5, but still not good.

That's right about where we are right now. Somewhere in the .6 to .7 MOA range.

 

[BillyNg]

Search the OP's posting history. He lays out virtually the same story in another thread and names the builder. I'm not saying he does or does not have a legitimate issue, just trying to give you guys a clue that there is another thread about this and the maker is named, along with some other info.

**edit**

Here, I'll just link it. https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/rifle-issue-update-thread.7014513/

Yeah, my intention is not the drag the builder through the mud. He has not thrown in the towel yet, and he still has the rifle. He's been very nice so far, and I don't want to risk hurting anyone's reputation until they've had every attempt to make the situation right. This thread is about asking for advice more than anything else. I'm not sure where to go from here.

 

[dirthead1]

Yeah, my intention is not the drag the builder through the mud. He has not thrown in the towel yet, and he still has the rifle. He's been very nice so far, and I don't want to risk hurting anyone's reputation until they've had every attempt to make the situation right. This thread is about asking for advice more than anything else. I'm not sure where to go from here.

I hear you. Hope you get it worked out.

 

[BillyNg]

know anyone else with a verified, reliable impact build?

you could screw the barrel on their setup just to try and isolate barrel vs rest of the system

i know on my multiple impacts i can swap the barrels around on them and they shoot similar regardless of the action its on

i saw a different scope was mentioned...has a different mount been tried? ive seen a top end rifle barely shooting 1moa (with everything tight and verified), then switch rings and its shooting ragged holes

No, I know no one else with any custom rifle. I'm the lone wolf in my extended family who shoots and my friend-base doesn't revolve around shooting.

I did switch out the scope for the cheapo-Vortex setup that sits on top of my son's .223 Howa. No difference in group size. And the builder has now had the rifle (everything, the entire rig include scope/rings/mags/bipod/case/etc) for just under 12 weeks. I have to imagine he tried a different optic as well given that he tried brakes, a different stock/chassis, and cut an entirely new barrel.

 

[hollowoutadime]

Another option:

You ought to consider reloading, knowing the twist, three bullets, a couple powders, varying load weights, a chrono - you should be able to sort this out in a weekend. With my 6br for instance for a varmint load, I made 9 loads, 10 rounds of each, chrono'd 5 and shot another group of 5. Find the right mix, load a few hundred in an evening. It won't save you much in $$, but there shouldn't be a frustration level of throwing different manufactured bullets endlessly.

 

[dimar1492]

Most fall in the .7 to .9 MOA range, but every now and again there's a 1.5 MOA group, or a .4 MOA group. That .26 MOA group from the previous range visit was a fluke, never to be repeated again.

That's the one you take pictures of for bookface man. It was Quarter MOA all day when you were doing your part.

Just kidding. Seriously though, once the builder couldn't produce his own guarantee...I certainly wouldn't invest another minute or nickel trying to figure it out. It's his burden now.

After all, is it a guarantee or not?

 

[BillyNg]

There have been some hints as to who it is. I would think with the volume of work they do they would want to just start over and build an identical rifle to salvage there reputation. In my experience, most of the guys that are involved in this are pretty good guys or fake it well. If they are not, they get outed. This is a very small tightly knit community. If you make a living in it and burn bridges, life is going to get pretty hard. I would leave it with the builder to deliver a half moa gun that is the same spec as the original within a reasonable time frame. I would be very cordial about it until that deadline. At that point I would become more insistent. My guess is as stated above. There is some minuscule voodoo magic problem that is nearly impossible to find causing the problem. It could be a defect in the action, stock, bottom metal, etc. that would require inspection equipment that is not a normal part of the industry to find the problem. It would likely be cheaper for the smith to start over and build a new gun unless he has a wizard mentor he can go to.

I would ask him to build another rifle, as he can obviously build guns, and have him provide evidence of progress. Give him a while to source the components (my guess is another stock might be hard to source unless someone has one in-stock and for sale). After the components are in, give him a couple weeks to build the gun. The original can become his personal project, or he can trash it, his choice. My guess is, the second rifle will shoot to expectations. As a builder, once in a while you have to eat a project. It is part of being in business.

I have had a small town gunsmith eat a barrel to make the situation right. The reamer was oversized at the base and it was not caught until I tried to resize my fired brass. I do not know if the gunsmith or the reamer company paid for it, but I was not given the run around at all. The situation was simply taken care of without a hassle. That barrel also shot groups in the .3's with no load development during break-in.

It sounds like the gunsmith is trying. I would ask for a build that meets the accuracy guarantee, and let him know that, if necessary, you will wait for him to source new components to build another identical gun. He likely has much of it on hand, but may have to wait on the stock.

Suggestions to rule things out would be to put the gun in a chassis and see if it will shoot. Put the barrel and action in the lathe and check for concentricity errors. My guess is that maybe some of this has already been done. Also, could put the barrel in another impact action build to see if it will shoot there. It might not find the cause, but it might narrow down where you need to look.

Thank you for your response, it (and everyone else's) is greatly appreciated. I hope I don't have to cross that bridge (demand new build), but I'll have no other choice if it comes down to it.

 

[BillyNg]

Another option:

You ought to consider reloading, knowing the twist, three bullets, a couple powders, varying load weights, a chrono - you should be able to sort this out in a weekend. With my 6br for instance for a varmint load, I made 9 loads, 10 rounds of each, chrono'd 5 and shot another group of 5. Find the right mix, load a few hundred in an evening. It won't save you much in $$, but there shouldn't be a frustration level of throwing different manufactured bullets endlessly.

Not possible. I live in a 1600 sq-ft apartment, have no basement, and no garage. That, and a 1-hour each way commute is what half a million dollars gets you when you and your wife are tied to an industry that is centered in Manhattan.

Instead, as noted a few times in this thread, I'm working with a custom ammunition maker to do my load development for me. I've tried 14 of his loads, every Gold Medal Match load Federal offers, and a few other random loads I've found at gun shops, the Internets, and that people at the range have graciously offered me along the way.

None of it shoots. Bullet weight seems to make no difference. 150s shoot just as terribly as 185s.

 

[Flightmurse]

That’s really unfortunate to have to struggle that hard after dumping so much money into it. Hopefully the builder takes back the gun and makes it right. You have a solid build list, no reason it shouldn’t meet at least 1/2 moa.

 

[W54/XM-388]

It sounds like you were basing your information off a 200 yard range (driving to put targets down at 200 seems a bit odd, we just walk the 200 yards).

1. Have you tried it in a (well built, heavy, higher end) mechanical rest with a remote trigger release?
2. Have you tried it at a 100 yard range?

IF I was trying to be all picky about 0.5 MOA to 0.25 MOA on a rifle, a full mechanical rest with remote trigger release, on a concrete bench and making sure the scope was at full magnification and lined up perfectly with the grid on the target paper at 100 yards, would be my first course of action.

I've done that before and it's pretty helpful.

 

[BillyNg]

It sounds like you were basing your information off a 200 yard range (driving to put targets down at 200 seems a bit odd, we just walk the 200 yards).

1. Have you tried it in a (well built, heavy, higher end) mechanical rest with a remote trigger release?
2. Have you tried it at a 100 yard range?

IF I was trying to be all picky about 0.5 MOA to 0.25 MOA on a rifle, a full mechanical rest with remote trigger release, on a concrete bench and making sure the scope was at full magnification and lined up perfectly with the grid on the target paper at 100 yards, would be my first course of action.

I've done that before and it's pretty helpful.

I've put about $1K worth of ammo through it from September to June when I returned it to the manufacturer (haven't gotten it back yet). That was done over probably two dozen range visits and done at 100, 200, and 300 yards. While there were a couple of range visits with less than stellar conditions, I generally avoided conditions that weren't favorable and always shot prone, off a bipod (couple of times I went off of a backpack, no difference), with a rear bag.

Again, 1,600 sq-ft apartment with no basement and no garage. I have zero space for a mechanical rifle rest (I have to store the rifle's hard case behind my head-board, much to the wife's dismay).

I would have assumed that any builder guaranteeing 1/2 MOA would have everything he needed to confirm accuracy, but in my visit to them I saw the testing setup and it still requires the human to put in solid work. They do have 800+ yards to play with though, I thought that was nice. (he's testing at 100 for the record, just thought having such easy access to 800 yards was cool since anything beyond 300 yards is s a multi-hour drive for me).

 

[hollowoutadime]

I'm not sure what you're looking for in an answer. If it's the guy 500 miles due west of you, he does pretty good work.

Assuming you can shoot 1/2", I'd try to salvage some sort of refund (keep Spuhr and scope) and go buy an AI. Any of their models will shoot that, and there are a lot of reasonably priced options for 6.5 creed match ammo. A new AI AT folder can be had for about 4K, used AE's in the $2700 range.

Your time and mental well being are more important than the $$$ loss on that rig.

 

[W54/XM-388]

always shot prone, off a bipod (couple of times I went off of a backpack, no difference), with a rear bag.

I'm in no way saying you are not an excellent shooter, but as a question, have you ever shot any other rifles (either yours or borrowed) to consistent, always 0.5 MOA groups or less for every five shot group, every time, using a similar setup of bipod / backpack and a rear bag?

I am surprised however that the guys over at SAC didn't try putting it in a mechanical rest to get firm validation of what is going on, along with a Labradar doing velocity checks for each shot.

 

[MikeRTacOps]

I'm pretty sure I could help you if you pay shipping both ways I'll put my lab coat on and roll up my sleeves I have a few idea's what it might be but what would I know ?

Mike R.

 

[Cclary60]

Thoughts:
Consistent .25” groups with factory Ammunition seems far fetched and unreasonable.

.452”,.600”,.792” average out to .614”.
That’s not .5” moa.
Get your money back and start over.