What do you expect from the glass on your trainer?

EscapeVelocity

EscapeVelocity

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Jan 24, 2010
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Zanesville, Ohio
#1
I just ordered a Savage Mark 2 FV for a budget trainer build and have not decided on what to mount on it. I will be shooting from 50 to 250 yards.
I am really curious as to what magnification I should seek that will allow me to at least see the little holes at 100. So, I ask those who have setups used in this general application if they can see holes at 100 on your rigs? Or more general, what magnification power do you use and why?
I debated on a Bushnell Elite 10x but not really sold on a fixed power on a rimfire. I like the idea of a 6 to 24 power but could I settle for a 14 power like a Mueller APT to achieve this? As far as specs go:
-I do want exposed target knobs
-would love mil/mil but think its out of my price range
-SP is optional
Any other features I will evaluate to determine if I want them.

Some considerations have been; Nikon Buckmaster 6-18x40, Tactical Weaver Grandslam 3-9x40 (just out of price range), Mueller APT and 8-32x44, and have browsed lower end Bushnells, Simmons, and even a Barska.

I would like to keep it under $300, but if I have to stay closer to 300 I can live with that.
 
#3
Re: What do you expect from the glass on your trainer?

I want the same quailty optic on my trainer as any other rifle, isn't that the whole point of having a trainer? Same reliabilty, clarity, tracking , and performance are needed for any type of precision shooting. Bad habits can be developed from poor glass and cheap equipment. Buy the best you can afford so training is enjoyable and more importantly applicable to the high power platform you choose to take into the field. My CZ 452 wears glass nearly twice the cost of the base price of the rifle. I often use the same glass switched between my rimfire and my high power rig and since both have the picatinny rail this has not been a hassle at all.
 
#5
Re: What do you expect from the glass on your trainer?

My trainer and my centerfire both wear the same kind of glass, 16x MK4 Leupold. As others have said, What is the point in using a cheap scope on a trainer and a great scope on your centerfire? If you don't expect much on either, then it really doesn't make any difference what you buy. Before you get the idea I am independently wealthy you need to know this, I own just a few firearms but they are really nice. I am fairly proficient with all that I own and occasionaly some that I don't.
 
#6
Re: What do you expect from the glass on your trainer?

I am thinking about a SS 20x42 to put on my .22lr trainer. I want to shoot out at 300yds to learn how to predict the wind. I only have a SS 10x42M on my 5R so I'd be shooting the same quality lenses on both.
 
#7
Re: What do you expect from the glass on your trainer?

im using the falcon menace 4-14 on my 22lr,it is a ffp mil/mil scope like the 5-20ss im about to pick up for a 308 build. as reeljod stated it needs to track good, be reliable and simulate the optic on the centerfire your training for.the menace has performed well and tracks nice, the only thing i noticed is my poi changed .1mil after zeroing and maxing out the elavation turret up and down but settled back in after a few rounds.it did it several times as i was testing out the consistency of the optic duing several box test.
 
#8
Re: What do you expect from the glass on your trainer?

Just ordered a samplelist 6x SS for a 10/22.
Really wanted mil/mil adjustments like my other scopes but wanted less magnification than 10x.
May end up with the mil/mil bushy or weaver on it eventually, just seems stupid to shoot 250-300yd with a 10x or higher mag and call it training to shoot 500+ yds with a 10x on centerfire.

Actually, come to think of it, training with anything other than the rifle, scope, and conditions you want to master seems stupid (just my opinion).

Lets be honest we enjoy shooting girly little 22s.:)
 
#9
Re: What do you expect from the glass on your trainer?

As I spend more time shooting my tricked-out .22 than anything else, it wears decent glass. I don't want to stare through a lousy scope all day merely because the diameter of the projectile is skinnier than .308.
 
#10
Re: What do you expect from the glass on your trainer?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DFOOSKING</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Win308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am thinking about a SS 20x42 to put on my .22lr trainer. I want to shoot out at 300yds to learn how to predict the wind. I only have a SS 10x42M on my 5R so I'd be shooting the same quality lenses on both. </div></div>

You can learn to "see" wind and adjust for it at 100yds with a .22lr...especially using subsonic ammo. There aren't too many out there that can make a cold bore shot on 1" Target at 100yds in field conditions 100% of the time. Given having good enough equipment to do so.

300yds although when used in perspective can be useful... your probably not gonna learn to predict it but just how poorly it handles wind and learn how to make competent scope adjustments (corrections) on the fly.</div></div>

This addresses my question more specifically. Shooting a 22lr at 100 yards should as you said, allow you to adjust for wind, which is the practice I need. What I'm wondering is with a 10x scope, are you able to see the bullet holes to make adjustments on the fly? My thought is I would rather have enough magnification to see each shot and adjust accordingly to maximize practice time (not looking through a spotting scope or running down to check targets). As you can probably guess, budget won't allow for the higher magnification with the specs I want for a training scope. However, I will look at used optics with the right specs before I buy something that's inadequate for the purpose intended.
 
#11
Re: What do you expect from the glass on your trainer?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DFOOSKING</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Win308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am thinking about a SS 20x42 to put on my .22lr trainer. I want to shoot out at 300yds to learn how to predict the wind. I only have a SS 10x42M on my 5R so I'd be shooting the same quality lenses on both. </div></div>

You can learn to "see" wind and adjust for it at 100yds with a .22lr...especially using subsonic ammo. There aren't too many out there that can make a cold bore shot on 1" Target at 100yds in field conditions 100% of the time. Given having good enough equipment to do so.

300yds although when used in perspective can be useful... your probably not gonna learn to predict it but just how poorly it handles wind and learn how to make competent scope adjustments (corrections) on the fly.</div></div>

This addresses my question more specifically. Shooting a 22lr at 100 yards should as you said, allow you to adjust for wind, which is the practice I need. What I'm wondering is with a 10x scope, are you able to see the bullet holes to make adjustments on the fly? My thought is I would rather have enough magnification to see each shot and adjust accordingly to maximize practice time (not looking through a spotting scope or running down to check targets). As you can probably guess, budget won't allow for the higher magnification with the specs I want for a training scope. However, I will look at used optics with the right specs before I buy something that's inadequate for the purpose intended.
 
#12
Re: What do you expect from the glass on your trainer?

There's no way I could see 22 holes at 100 yards with a 10x. I can see holes with my 14x Nikon from my 22-250, but a rimfire leaves a smaller hole. I would look for a 4-14 or similar. You won't see any holes shooting a centerfire past a couple hundred yards so I wouldn't worry about your rimfire.
 
#13
Re: What do you expect from the glass on your trainer?

as far as a "purist trainer", the same optic that's on the rifle that is the thing that the trainer is setup to imitate.

for the "semi-purist" trainer, at least the same reticle, MOA adjustments, and in the neighborhood of the same magnification as the prmary.

as a rimfire as a target type or built up as it's own platform, i like side focus, 1/8 or 1/4 moa adjustments with high turrets, and a higher magnification somewhere in the 6-24, 8-32 range as it takes out the need for a spotting scope.

i'd also like a dodge viper and jessica beil, of which i don't believe i'll be getting anytime soon or can afford, so i'm presently cursed with dealing with the cheapie scopes. however some smart shopping allows something satisfactory to meet those needs.

i think in either of those cases, clarity and repeatability is the key. has to be clear to see those small holes no matter how high the magnification, and has to be rugged / repeatable to accept all the cranking of the turrets you do between 50 and 200+ yards.

using 14/16x on even my cheapie centerpoint allows decent spotting of hits at 200 yards, and at 100 i like 10 to 12x to see them easily.

for hunting applications, anything starting (magnification wise) above 4x tends to get you losing the target at closer ranges as the FOV is usually limited with higher mags and closer ranges.
 
#14
Re: What do you expect from the glass on your trainer?

Thank you for the comments. I have stumbled inadvertently on the real issue I am facing; do I want a pure training rifle or semi-pure (as TOP PREDATOR has mentioned)? The answer seems to be a multi-purpose optic, that has most features and function of a dedicated long range centerfire scope. I hope and certainly think I can achieve some level of training with a scope like the Nikon Buckmaster or similar. I know for sure, I DO want to be able to see the holes on paper at 100 yards, not that I will always shoot paper, but the option is still there.
 
#15
Re: What do you expect from the glass on your trainer?

I put this on my Savage Mark II TR and so far so good.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/598484/...t-reticle-matte

Like that it is variable power and able to see the bullet holes at 100 yards, even with my weak eye...let's just say I'm a few years past 50 so the eyes definitely aren't like my 20's. It has a good field of view and if you shoot 50 - 75 yards nice to have option to dial it down a bit from 10X. Midway will have these on sale from time to time for around $299.00....Hope this helps but there are lots of good glass out there....JaxOps
 
#16
Re: What do you expect from the glass on your trainer?

just to add the buckmaster you mentioned....i love it, and am still comparing stuff to it. i wish it came in 6-24 mildot, it would then be a no brainer for me as i like the higher mags for spotting. there was one on ebay for 309.00, with mildots, and although the mildot model is getting harder to find, they are out there for an average of 359.00.

i hear good things about the mueller 8-32 target dot http://www.opticstore.com/Rifle%20Scopes...y%20Mueller.htm and was going to be my next optic purchase, but then decided to stay with mildots. i did have the oppurtunity to look through the target dot model, very nice. i din't get the chance to play with the turrets, so i can't say if they are mushy or repeatable. BSA makes a "twin" in 6-24 (149.00 @ midway, and an 8-32 "tactical" scope (found a few for 85.00 on ebay they call a deerhunter http://www.ebay.com/itm/BSA-Deerhunter-8...=item3a6d94b43c, but the letters B-S-A give me the chills - i had too many crap out on me, and not sure if the inerds of this one has the same type of BSA crappy quality. but for 85.00 perhaps it's worth a try.

still if you are staying arund the 100 yard mark, i think that the buckmaster 6-18 mildot offers alot for the price (more than enough mag for 100, side focus, high turrets, a good reputation and name brand), i should take my own advice and buy one of these damn things.

i've had barskas, they are hit and miss in the clarity / brightness area, i just had simmons 6-24 pro target crap out in the mechanical adjustment i guess it couldn't handle all the elevation crankings. the lower bushnell's seem ok but lack some of the creature comforts that make a scope more user friendly.

tasco - i've never had one crap out either on a rimfire or up to a 300 win mag. it's tough to find one with creature comforts though.

i have been entertaining a sightmark 8.5-25 for 20.00, it has everything that i like, i just hope it holds up - credible reviews are hard to come by on this one.
 
#17
Re: What do you expect from the glass on your trainer?

ive had 3 nikon buckmasaters. they are great scopes if you plan to hold for elevation. if you plan to dial you just un sighted in your gun because the tracking is horible
 
#18
Re: What do you expect from the glass on your trainer?

Not to derail the thread, but what about swapping the scope out?

If purity of training with the same type scope is so important, why not use the same scope?

I see all kinds of money being spent on 22 trainers to be exactly like the "real rifle" setup. Rezeroing the scope is easy enough with solid mounts and picatinneys. One might even become more familiar with one's high dollar scope.
 
#19
Re: What do you expect from the glass on your trainer?

I have 4 of these, in use for going on 5 years. two are on .22's another on a .30-'06 hunter, and the last on a custom built Savage .260 Rem match rifle. Ths scope will do what you ask. I have trouble seeing .22 caliber holes beyond 200ys, and it can be iffy at that distance in overcast light. 100yd is no big deal. It resolves F Class target spotters at 1000yd with no trouble.

Greg
 
#20
Re: What do you expect from the glass on your trainer?

I run the Mueller APT (4-14x40) on both my .308 and my .22 LR. Scope has tracked flawlessly through several thousand rounds of .22 LR and hundreds of .308. Clarity and brightness is good, but not outstanding. Eye relief leaves a little to be desired and is my only complaint, but I have gotten used to it.

Seeing .22 cal holes @ 100 is easy anywhere north of 8x, .308 @ 200 is also easy @ 14x and iirc spotting .308 holes @ 300 is quite do-able, but then I have fairly good vision to begin with (20/16 or something like that when I was shooting sporting clays). @ 400 seeing the holes is not very do-able with my scope.

I guess I fall into the camp that says marksmanship is marksmanship so don't stress about making it a perfect simulation of your big rifle, yet I love being so familiar with my scope on my primary without shooting my primary thousands of times.

-The Kid.

ETA: I have pretty well beat the crap out of one of these scopes and it has yet to shift zero or give me any other nasty surprises.
 
#21
Re: What do you expect from the glass on your trainer?

I want clear and repeatable. It's got to be reliable, also.

I can see holes at 100 with no problem using my 6-18 Leupy.

I looked at the Nikon Buckmasters at one point, the thought being that I could buy two of them (~$329, locally), one for my 513T and one for my 6mm M700 varmint, for a little more than I'd have in one Leupold. When I looked through them though, the comparison was over. The optics are pretty close, as far as my eyes could tell, but the Nikon "target dot" looked to be three or four times the size of the dot in the Leupold. The Nikon's got side focus, which is really nice, and the one I was looking at had target knobs with screw-on covers.

I wouldn't be afraid of the Nikon, but I'd definitely look at other reticles than their target dot, especially if you want to place holes as precisely as possible.
 
#22
Re: What do you expect from the glass on your trainer?

I am torn between the 3200 Elite 10x, Weaver Tactical 3-10, Mueller APT, and Nikon 6-18 mil dot. The first two for the obvious reasons of them being mil/mil (I want to transition into using mils). The second two because one is cheap and has decent reviews, and one is quality with the magnification that I want.

How is anyone's experience with the 10x elite at seeing 22lr holes at 100 yards? Im still worried about not seeing how I will print hits on paper at this distance.
 
#24
Re: What do you expect from the glass on your trainer?

Just got my Midway flyer and have the Weaver Tactical Grand Slam scope on sale again at $299.99 (regularly $399.99) for the Mil-Dot 3-10x 40mm scope with 1/10 MIL adjustments. Read some of the reviews on Midway USA and hope the info helps with your decision. I know there are lots of good products out there and everyone has their opinion.

I use mine on a Savage Mark II TR .22 LR but like that I can switch to other platforms if needed. I use a couple of Nightforce NXS's on my GAP and Rock River Arms AR but like the Weaver too. I added a Diversified Innovative Products (DIP) 20 MOA one piece rail to the top of my Savage to give my options for positioning. I know it may be overkill but worked out to my liking.
IMG_0183.jpg

Good luck in your decision....JaxOps
 
#25
Re: What do you expect from the glass on your trainer?

currently have a primary arms 4-16x44 on my .22. if I get a chance to work some overtime this spring or I decide to give up golf i'll be picking up a razor or something in that price range for my .308 and i'll move the falcon over to my .22. until then the PA scope does the job just fine. I mainly shoot the .22 at 50 yds though due to space where i shoot it.
 
#26
Re: What do you expect from the glass on your trainer?

Clear glass @ 10x will let you see .22 cal holes no problem! A lot of times I leave my scope set on 10x while practicing from 50-200 as it lets me practice using my mils. Also, I've heard nothing but good about the 3200, so I would't hesitate on that. You don't "need" the extra high end of the power, but it is nice. I would caution that if you go 10x fixed you may well wish you had lower magnification available a lot of times, even in target shooting. For hunting, I would hate to have anything over 6x on the low end, yet really need that 10-14x range for precise practice at extended ranges and for positive target ID at longer distances while hunting. I've never wished for a smaller range of magnification.

The 4-14 power fits my needs Extremely well, but others may not need that full range of magnification for their style of shooting. Killed 5 squirrels yesterday and today at ranges from 10-85 yards with single shots to the chest or head. The close shots would not have happened @ 10x due to the rapid presentation of shot opportunities. Wouldn't mind if the magnification range was 2-18x or thereabouts , but that's just dreamin' on my part. My .02, fwiw.

-The Kid.
 
#27
Re: What do you expect from the glass on your trainer?

Yeah, I'd agree that more than 6x on the low end is too much for a small game rifle, in the woods anyway. Even 6x seems a little high sometimes.
 
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