What is a gunsmith

[Dead Eye Dick]

Found this on Quora of all places.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

What is a Gunsmith?

Being a Gunsmith is a lot of things…

It’s cleaning 30 years worth of gummed up 3-in-1 oil and powder residue out of a an old .22.

It’s mounting a $50 scope to a $3000 rifle, because that’s what the customer wants.

It’s mounting a $2500 scope to a $300 rifle, because that’s what the customer wants.

It’s fine tuning the trigger on an Anschutz target rifle that the owner will be going to the Olympic tryouts with.

It’s figuring out why a hunting rifle that used to shoot 1″ groups, now shoots 6″ groups.

It’s making a new spring for a revolver they quit making parts for in 1943.

It’s explaining that grand-dads old rifle that has hunted for 3 generations, and never been cleaned or maintained, is beyond saving… (restoring would cost $3000 for a rifle you can still buy new for $700)… then doing the work anyway.

It’s refinishing a wood rifle stock with meticulous sanding, fitting, filling, and finishing until it’s like a fine piece of furniture.

It’s taking a poorly fitting scope mount on a fine rifle, and fitting it properly to make the rifle shoot like a fine target rifle.

It’s building a target rifle from an action and a bucket of parts.

It’s welding on a new bolt handle and polishing it.

It’s cutting and fitting, and chambering a new barrel to a rifle.

It’s taking a rusty, ugly, old pistol from the 60’s, and refinishing it in a “bright blue” to look like it was made yesterday - and the owner expecting to pay $50 for those 100 hours of work because Colts factory brochure from 1962 said it was $50.

It’s taking a hunting rifle that the owner has given up on getting to shoot, and narrowing your eyes at it and saying to yourself “Oh, you aren’t beating ME!”.

It’s cleaning up an old .22 for “Dad” so he can give it to his daughter for Christmas… it was dads first rifle, and it’s her first rifle so they can go shooting together. THAT job you do for the cost of the parts…

It’s filing a new front sight out of a block of steel for an old coot who is convinced he knows how tall the front sight should be, and then re-doing it six times because he won’t listen when you told him the first five times how tall it SHOULD be… Him you charge triple time for… stubborn old bastard…

It’s dreading seeing yet another old Reminton 760 pump rifle come into the shop.

It’s your eyes lighting up when a gorgeous old German Scheutzen rifle comes in and you get to examine it.

It’s that feeling when you’re the first one to take the lockplate off an old British Snider rifle made in the 1860’s, and see the chiseled initials of the maker inside… and from all the crud you cleaned out, you KNOW you’re only the second person to ever see it.

It’s being a young ladies first shooting instructor, and seeing her face when she shoots her first “perfect” score on the target.

It’s a damn heap of work, and a lot of self-teaching in half a dozen major trades… Machining, welding, jewelry making, metal finishing, woodworking, wood finishing, etc…

If none of these in this list make you smile and say “Yeah, I want to do this…” then nothing I say is going to convince you, and you shouldn’t bother.

 

[cas6969]

All that, yet still completely bewildered on the complex and confusing function of a calendar.


(I know, I know. It's not that they can't use a calendar, it's just that theirs is slightly different. Sort of like how dog years works)

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

And all gunsmiths and builders of firearms need this on their wall.

A cartoon with a customer handing over a firearm to a gunsmith for repair

Customer…
” If I wanted it fixed tomorrow….”

“…..I would have brought it in tomorrow.”

 

[SmartDonkey]

A little off topic- but do you think that the demand for a gunsmith is going to stay high for the next 30 years? I was talking to a kid about to graduate high school and asked him what he wanted to do. He said on you-tube he has been seeing a lot of adds for SDI and might do something like that and open his own shop.

With how the bolt gun market is going to chassis' and aftermarket actions that can accept pre-fits (and anyone with a moderate level of skill can assemble a "custom" rifle) do you think the demand will fall off? I realize that someone still has to be involved in the making of all the lego pieces before they can be assembled- but that takes place in bigger companies and not smaller personally owned/operated businesses. Is there still a place for all the small gun smiths or is it going to be phased out?

 

[cas6969]

For all areas of gunsmithing and custom guns, the craftsmen, artisans are dead or retiring quickly with very few new ones to fill the void. Quality builders, "assemblers" are replacing them/. It's what we see more and more of and perhaps that's where the steady money is. But as some people find out, being a great machinist doesn't automatically make you a gunsmith / gun builder. But it helps if your product is very "machine" like.

For your question, demand for real gun fixers and people with "old school" gunsmithing skills will probably be higher than ever because there's fewer and fewer of them.

 

[acudaowner]

 

[MK20]

The demand is there. The supply of people who give a shit is not.

 

[Sean the Nailer]

two more things I can add to this list:

If you want to make a small fortune in the gunsmith business, begin with a large fortune.

And,

When the customer wants his Model 12 shotgun to be 'like new again' and you spend numerous hours dipping and re-dipping the reciever into the hot-salt blue solution, to NOT get the rainbow-effect, AND THEN also finish, then strip, then re-finish, repeat-as-necessary when working on the stock because it has be "high gloss" with NO imperfections...

Hand said perfection to the customer and he then complains that it is "far too shiny and far too smooth and far too glossy...." kinda takes the wind out of your sails.

The biggest problem when working as a gunsmith, is 'customers'. If only there could be one, without the other. Oh wait....

 

[lonegunman762x51]

What is a gunsmith?

A guy with no sense of time. He hasn't been on time or finished his homework since 3rd grade.

A guy who can fix it..................eventually.

Will eat tonight, if he is a pizza delivery guy after hours.


All kidding aside, I sent a prewar S&W Magnum to a gunsmith who specialized in restoring prewar firearms and had it restored. Re-casehardened everything, recut markings including the logo, timed cylinder, redo trigger pull, reblue to perfection. It took 6 months longer than estimated and was worth every penny.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Everyone else is a tin smith or a parts assembler.

Me included! ;-)

Sirhr

 

[BullGear]

A gunsmith is a person who does more work than you know to your firearm and actually makes about $2.50 an hour when all is said and done.

 

[M4orturnate]

You mean ordering a bunvh of parts and slapping them together doesnt make me a gunsmif? Well shit

 

[brianf]

gunsmithing is out the window as we used to know it and should have been out the window 30-40 years ago

a rifle is a bunch of parts that are screwed together, it less complicated than putting together a bicycle for your kids if the parts are made correctly

but for some reason it took the industry decades to stop using crappy lathes in some guys basement and start putting pieces of metal on a CNC machine

every other industry sends you a part that matches the original spec so the equipment keep running, but the firearms industry kept making and buying loose spec junk and then wasted time to fix it

AI has been doing it forever


inlet, bedding, stock fixes, referbing old pieces of junk that should be tossed for something new and better is what a gunsmith is today

not trying to be negative but thats what it really is

people will spend 200$ and 3 months fixing a old revolver that has no sentimental value while a new one costs $450

 

[pineoak]

gunsmithing is out the window as we used to know it and should have been out the window 30-40 years ago

a rifle is a bunch of parts that are screwed together, it less complicated than putting together a bicycle for your kids if the parts are made correctly

but for some reason it took the industry decades to stop using crappy lathes in some guys basement and start putting pieces of metal on a CNC machine

every other industry sends you a part that matches the original spec so the equipment keep running, but the firearms industry kept making and buying loose spec junk and then wasted time to fix it

AI has been doing it forever


inlet, bedding, stock fixes, referbing old pieces of junk that should be tossed for something new and better is what a gunsmith is today

not trying to be negative but thats what it really is

people will spend 200$ and 3 months fixing a old revolver that has no sentimental value while a new one costs $450

You make 1911 collectors cry with your hate speech.

 

[brianf]

You make 1911 collectors cry with your hate speech.

because they should buy a glock ... i had to do it lol

1911 guys are the worst of all

they want to use all GI parts even though there are better versions of the same part available

if its all original thats one thing, then referb and keep it running

but to build a pistol of mix and match and purposely spec out inferior materials never made sense to me

 

[buffalowinter]

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

I can tell who's not a tradesman or worked with the general public or kept the doors for a business open or has had employees.

 

[dttheliman]

It’s not the ass clown scope monkey at Cabelas

 

[sirhrmechanic]

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You forgot:

Cheers,

Sirhr

PS... you are the master of the stickwelder and Dremel! And I mean that as a compliment. Because most people ruin things with those... devices.

 

[Sean the Nailer]

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You've got some NICE stuff, Buff,,,,

 

[LeftyJason]

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Or

Better.


Just giving you a hard time. Your builds are great.

Seriously those Nakanishi air motors are so smooth and fast they're less grabby. Max 40k rpm with a carbide burr is smooth. Have one at work. Would love to have one at home.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

You BUILT some NICE stuff, Buff,,,,

FIFY.

Sirhr

 

[JoshPutman]

 

[sirhrmechanic]

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Well, still better than a Hi Point.

Sirhr

 

[JoshPutman]

 

[iceng]

Ohhhh fuk me. You are a bunch of cunts. Top work.

I snorted at all the replies.

To me.. being a gunsmith is learning what a 28 hour day is, and do them 8 days a week, without sleep.

Also... $2.50hr. *sad gunsmith noises*.

 

[brianf]

I can tell who's not a tradesman or worked with the general public or kept the doors for a business open or has had employees.

Some people on the hide have pulled more bearings, referbed old pieces of junk to pay the bills and rewired more 440 to 208 equipment than certain people have hair in their head.

But then they learned to make better business decisions

I think I know one

 

[buffalowinter]

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Or
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Better.


Just giving you a hard time. Your builds are great.

Seriously those Nakanishi air motors are so smooth and fast they're less grabby. Max 40k rpm with a carbide burr is smooth. Have one at work. Would love to have one at home.

I've got a Foredom and don't like it. Maybe I have a bad one, but it heats up something fierce.

 

[mosin46]

well,for sure,the people who can build an excellent wood stock are and have become rare. in the 70s to mid 80s there were 2 in central fl. they were both in their 70s back then. gone now i am sure. i know of none in recent times and the call for a custom walnut or exotic wood stock likely doesn't exist anymore.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

To be serious in this thread.... and if I touched some nerves with my Williamsburg post... my apologies. It was not intended to slight our actual modern gunsmith members.

IMHO, 'Gunsmithing' has sort of bifurcated into about four directions in the past 4 - 5 decades from the 'old guy in the shop' to new and, I'd argue, awesome directions... mostly.

At the low end are the parts-assemblers cranking out AR's from Tacticool plastic... and the scope monkeys and the 'bodge it back together for deer season' set. Not that it isn't a good living, perhaps. There is money to be made from non DIY-ers... so make it!

Then there are the full-custom 'old style' Gunsmiths whether they are doing custom Mauser's or Rigby style rifles or whatever... along with the guys still working like the Williamsburg Gunsmith. Guys like Herschel House and Ed Parry and the other longrifle builders.

On the other end of the spectrum are the ones working in the CNC world. Not talking about pounding out 'just another AR-lower' but the really out there stuff coming along in chassis design, structured barrels, mounts, stock design, etc. Bleeding edge stuff and the bread and butter of Snipers Hide. Because this is where it all shows up first. And this stuff is every bit as cool and difficult and artistic as the guys above. And anyone who thinks that CNC-produced stuff is just a machine spitting out parts... no... cnc is just a brilliant way to hog out metal faster than an old gunsmith could have done it in 35 operations on 5 machines. You still have to think it up, draw it and then program the damn machine. Oh and these days, better know how to animate your engineering drawings to prove your design in digital before you do that expensive programming on your CNC... or hog out things that don't fit. My hats off to guys who can do that! I can barely use a meme-maker!

Last there is the whole category of "Restoration Gunsmiths" that has emerged as older firearms keep skyrocketing in value. That 'old junk' Smith and Wesson or Colt is now starting at $1500 and anything investment-grade costs as much as a small car. They are the ones who are saving and restoring production and custom guns that really ARE our history and pieces of art. Doug Turnbull, Kirk Merrington, Larry DelGrego, Dell Whitman... too many to list. These guys are often masters of a ton of skills because they have to do everything from finishing to machining to woodworking to timing a revolver to making a presentation box. Some mad skills among the folks who are professional restoration gunsmiths. But good ones make very, very good livings and their work is perfection.

I won't mention the hobby guys (like BW and I.) Because we do it for fun and entertainment. So my hourly rate playing with guns is about... $0.75. But it keeps me out of trouble, so there ya go! Worth it. That said, there are hobbyists in any area of interest who are better than some pros. And some who should leave the Dremel in the toolbox. (That's not you BW!) But we're not gunsmiths. Not really.

Anyway, it's an interesting question and I probably forgot some categories... My bad.

Sirhr

PS. I knew I forgot a category... in between the CNC gunsmith and the Classic Gunsmith... is the guy who is taking the high-end parts on the market and assembling them properly into the 'modern tactical custom.' And while they may not have the carved wood stock, what they lack in burl walnut they make up for in ballistic performance. Those lovely walnut guns are mostly minute of elk. 1-2 moa with good ammo. And this is what is needed for their purpose. Generally hunting, but often displaying. The modern gunsmith putting together CNC parts 'right' and tuning high-end guns is turning out performance that is putting first round hits on steel at 1-2 miles... in the hands of Joe Schmo! They've taken things that 30 years ago were giant ballistic appliances on rollers bolted to benches and made them light enough to run a PRS match with. That's a whole different level of gunsmithing...

 

[sirhrmechanic]

well,for sure,the people who can build an excellent wood stock are and have become rare. in the 70s to mid 80s there were 2 in central fl. they were both in their 70s back then. gone now i am sure. i know of none in recent times and the call for a custom walnut or exotic wood stock likely doesn't exist anymore.

I was at the Orvis shooting range in NY a couple of years ago. And there was some high end shotgun maker there having a Demo Day. I looked at some of their shotguns while their 'rep' very proudly told me that the stock wood (which was spectacular burl and circassian walnut) was not It was basically laser-printed grain on birch. I could not believe it... I even could see 'depth and flame' however they laser printed that.

I bet in every way it's better than the 130 year old stock adorning my Audley-Special... It probably will never crack. Never warp or open up a seam. Never need refinishing after a rainy bird hunt. It's everything but... real.

So there's lots of shotguns being sold. The waiting list at Purdey and Boss is something like 3 years. There are plenty of people who want fine walnut. But also plenty more who want printed birch and laser engraving with spray-on-gold inlay. Or whose new hunting rifle will be on a chassis with fiberglass or Delrin. The Fudd-class is shrinking while the tactical/prepper and LR hunting world is booming. So (almost) noone is ordering custom wood stocks. But there are also so few stockmakers that it takes 2 years for the few of us who DO order custom stocks... to get our rifles stocked.

For young folks who want a very, very rewarding hands-on career... if you are good with your hands AND compound curves... apprentice as a stockmaker. Or an engraver. If you master the skills... you will never be short of work. Or if you are a computer nerd who likes guns... go into engineering or science. There's so much going on in metallurgy, propellants, innovative designs, optics... all driven by the capabilities of CNC and CAD... push the envelope.

Fields where all the go-to-people are about to retire... are great places to go.

Sirhr

 

[LeftyJason]

I've got a Foredom and don't like it. Maybe I have a bad one, but it heats up something fierce.

Which motor? The letters on it say the important info (the TX or SR). How often do you lubricate the shaft?

 

[buffalowinter]

How often do you lubricate the shaft?

Seriously?

 

[Bender]

I had a gunsmith here in Cheyenne that filled and retapped my scope mounts to actually be sqare, rebedded the action, pinned a slight crack with nice brass hardware, reblued the metal to beautiful half gloss, and slight sand and restained all on my fathers old German sporterized Mauser. Excellent work. He charged me….





















$140 in 2001.

I could never afford to be a gunsmith. The fellow has passed away. He was retired and this was obviously his hobby of passion.

 

[iceng]

The gun industry is weird. Like, not even half measure, I'm talking full-metal-autistic-weird.

Car or bike industry, you can fill a swimming pool and go balls deep like Scrooge McDuck. People throw money at you and are prepared to wait.

Redrill and retap some holes while they wait, and charge $20 for it, then they piss and moan "where are the screws ??". You mean the ones I had to drill and tap out because you monkey-fist fuked them up ? Screws are $20 for 4 (we custom make torx t15 head screws from 4140 and heat treat them, then black oxide them, so $5 a screw.. do the math). That's ontop of the original $20.

Then it's like 15 attempted minutes of useless negotiation, which results in me saying "job is $20, screws are an additional $20, no discounts".

If you are polite, stroke my ego a bit, and say please and thanks and call me a nice cunt, then yeah, I'll do it for $30 cash.

I need to get out of this industry.

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

Never turn your hobby into a job.

 

[Bigfatcock]

I charge $40 per hour for my time. No partial hours…

I have over 10 hours of work in a set of revolver grips to get a quality fit.

Very few want to pay $400 in labor for a set of revolver grips.

Then there is the FFL requirement to take in guns, security requirements, insurance etc. not worth the hassle anymore.

So, I either charge for what my time is worth, or reduce my pay significantly to churn out a set of grips for $150.00. My solution was to quit offering grips, and only take on grip jobs that interest me. Even doing that, with high prices for a set, I still get more work than I want.

Same for stock making. Oddly, they’ll pay that rate for a table top, that is much easier to produce, lol.

It’s much cheaper to buy off the rack grips with a “good enough” fit, just as it’s much cheaper to build a rifle from pre-fit everything. You are removing the skill/cost of a craftsman from the equation.

 

[Bender]

Retards will pay $50k for a Toyota car, $90 dinners, $3k a month for a mortgage and then bitch about a scope that is more than $65 or a gunsmith that charges actual rates? Lol

 

[NCHillbilly]

Pick any skilled profession, learn all you can, acquire tools to perform chosen profession, and prepare to thrive in the underground economy which will be foisted upon us.

 

[supercorndogs]

Such a wide range of what gunsmith can be. Ranging from a artist level master craftsman, to someone I wouldn't let screw a handle back on a cheap pan. Choose yours carefully.

 

[Codiekfx400]

I have a gun shop local to me with a full time in house gunsmith. I went in to pick up a gun and went over to talk to him. I asked if he had a bore scope. He told me he’s been a gunsmith for going on 15 years and has never had a need for one. Skill levels definitely vary in any profession. It looked like he did a nice job wiping down the outside of guns with a oily rag though.

 

[fpgt72]

Never turn your hobby into a job.

So many people suggest that, but all it does is ruin your hobby, and might ruin it forever.

Now if it is an "old guy" doing work for cheap but fantastic quality that is not his work, that is something to keep the old guys mind going. People need something to do. Retire and do nothing and you die.

 

[Bigfatcock]

Even in this age of supposedly ready to go custom actions, pre-fits, and drop ins; I still prefer to use the services of a real gunsmith. Honestly, I'm money ahead getting an old Walmart Rem700 action trued over buying a custom action.

I want that attention to detail that my gunsmith brings to the table. However, real gunsmiths are getting harder and harder to find. When you do find one their order book is backlogged for years due to demand for a true one off rifle. When they raise prices to try and find balance with demand, people cry.

Parts assemblers are popular because you can save significant money just screwing parts together so you save those inletting fees, chambering fees, metal work fees, checkering fees, finishing fees, etc. With the quality of parts today, you'll have a rifle that will probably perform as well as one made by a true gunsmith, maybe.

However, I'll say that there is still very high demand for quality work, and no lack of people willing to pay for it. Just call around to well known engravers, stock makers, finishing services, checkering services, etc. Prices will be high, and you'll get put in the queue to get your stuff done 1-2 years from now.

 

[iceng]

One thing I'll add is this. I completely agree with @Bigfatcock (fuk that name is hilarious).

Theres not many true gunsmith craftsmen around because the pay sucks. For the skill level we / others provide, the pay is horrible. It's why it's a dying art and no one is entering it.

If we raise the price to cover the cost of living, we are gouging and a few customers complain.

We are clearly under charging because we have literal YEARS of backlog. If we raise our prices it does 2 things. Gives us money so we don't have to live off 2 minute instant noodles, and reduces the backlog, as some people will pull out, and free up time.

Problem is, the single biggest problem which we ALL suffer from, we are all too eager to please others. We want to see happy customers, take Mike from TacOps. Always bending over to help people who are not even his customers, just a completely awesome guy and benefit to the gunsmith industry. Chad from LRI. Sharing stories, how he does things, and never settles for "good enough". Always pushing, always helping. To the detriment of not having a huge amount of free time because he is always working and trying to please his customers.
Mark from SAC is another great example. As voted "the most handsome gunsmith of the year", and look at what he does. He custom makes some very cool gunsmithing tools, which really only true gunsmiths need. We all make stuff like this, but he makes it public AND sells to other Smith's ! He is helping his competition!. Also not forget he burnt out loads of barrels purely for testing a theory on bullet jump... Then published his data ! He is doing great work for customers, and great info / products for Smith's.

There's multiple other Smith's I wanna call out by name, however won't, but this is a selfless industry where I believe some people don't get the recognition they truly deserve.

 

[Rothhammer1]

Last there is the whole category of "Restoration Gunsmiths" that has emerged as older firearms keep skyrocketing in value... They are the ones who are saving and restoring production and custom guns that really ARE our history and pieces of art.

Joel Dorleac: https://www.dorleac-dorleac.com/arme/mod1903-english-rifle/?lang=en

 

[LRI]

My name got thrown in here so just to illustrate a small portion of what it takes to move forward in this trade.

I took delivery of this yesterday. What it does is warm up a shrink-fit tool holder so you can install/remove a tool. "Shrinkers" do an amazing job of ensuring tools are running concentric to the spindle and they improve surface finishes by offering near-perfect surface contact&clamp power.

I never once dreamed of having to ask clients if they have a pacemaker as a prerequisite to a shop tour. I really wanted to keep this money and use it for something foolish like race car parts.

Attempting to exist at the tip of the spear in this game is neither cheap nor easy.

C.

 

[Llatikcuf]

Never turn your hobby into a job.

I know of a guy who got a job in QA at an ammo manufacturer, he spent about 1/3 of his time shooting, 1/3 cleaning guns and 1/3 loading magazines.
After two years on the job he had sold all of his guns and taken up RC model airplanes.

 

[iceng]

Ill echo Chad on that. Its one thing to buy a small lathe, then a mill, then a better lathe, then a cnc. Its a completely different thing to fill the the machines with appropriate tooling.

 

[cas6969]

My name got thrown in here so just to illustrate a small portion of what it takes to move forward in this trade.

I always viewed real gunsmiths like some small farmers I know. It amazes me that they have probably a million dollars or more in equipment, just to barely scratch out a living and live like some of the poorest people you'd ever meet.

 

[LRI]

I always viewed real gunsmiths like some small farmers I know. It amazes me that they have probably a million dollars or more in equipment, just to barely scratch out a living and live like some of the poorest people you'd ever meet.

2.6m.

I just went through an audit with a new insurance company to see about a better rate.