Advanced Marksmanship What is considered good offhand accuracy at 100 yds?
- Thread starter heronblue7
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About an 1 moa.
Probably less if I took it inside with zero wind but at 100 yds the .22 blows around a bit.
I had trouble shooting 1 moa at 100yds with my new red dot scope yesterday, while sighting in my new CZ Scorpion 9mm Carbine. Of course it’s a 2 moa dot and no magnification....
I just kept shooting at the same spot until the center was gone and it made me feel better about it. A couple of hundred rounds and it’s just a single ragged hole. LOL (ok, slight exaggeration). Actually it did very well from the bench.
Off-hand it was more like 3 moa, but the 12 lb pull on the trigger wasn’t helping much.
I’ll get it to be better and the grouping will tighten.
I just kept shooting at the same spot until the center was gone and it made me feel better about it. A couple of hundred rounds and it’s just a single ragged hole. LOL (ok, slight exaggeration). Actually it did very well from the bench.
Off-hand it was more like 3 moa, but the 12 lb pull on the trigger wasn’t helping much.
I’ll get it to be better and the grouping will tighten.
If you can stand up and shoot your rifle unsupported into 3MOA groups of a significant number of rounds, you won’t have to take shit from anybody about it, that’s for damn sure. I’ve shot as high as 50% on a 1.5 MOA target, but I had a coat on. Then again, it was irons and a 4.8 lb trigger, so maybe that evens out.
The “old man” standard was actually “groups the size of a fist” at 100 paces.
I just know that I’ve spent a fair amount of time working on the task, and if you asked me—in just a tshirt with a bare rifle—to hit a 3” circle every shot for 50 rounds...well, I doubt it.
The “old man” standard was actually “groups the size of a fist” at 100 paces.
I just know that I’ve spent a fair amount of time working on the task, and if you asked me—in just a tshirt with a bare rifle—to hit a 3” circle every shot for 50 rounds...well, I doubt it.
Repeatedly hitting a 1/5th scale ram, offhand, at 100m would be considered excellent offhand accuracy.
You are not wrong. For anybody not familiar, the core hit area on a Ram is about 3" tall x 4" wide, and you better keep your crosshair in the middle of that, since most of the rifles are MOA at best.
But I'll add: Meh. The 77m Turkeys are the real SOB. Basically a golf ball at 84 Yards.
I'm usually about 7-8 for 10 on Rams, and have run them. I think I've only EVER hit 8 Turkeys.
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Don't even get me started on those damn turkeys!
Technically speaking, using a sling is considered "unsupported" in the eyes of the NRL.
Righto.
BIG difference between sling-supported standing "unsupported" a la PRS, and what I was discussing...
...which is you. A tshirt. And your rifle.
But by-th-by, Highpower and Smallbore "coat" shooters are not allowed to use a sling for support. Coat and glove = okay.
I'll never say my Monard makes no difference in my scores.
In the same line though, I don't deserve any shit for how I shoot without it. I grew up shooting, but I didn't grow up shooting at paper targets.
A coat does not make up for lack of core strength, holding drills, dry fire, and live fire anymore than it does structural issues with the position itself. (ie: doing something stupid like shooting it as though it's a Silver Pigeon instead of like an Annie 1913)
20 lb rifles aren't conformist to your desires of them. They make YOU do what THEY want. Best get used to that, and get along with it.
-Nate
BIG difference between sling-supported standing "unsupported" a la PRS, and what I was discussing...
...which is you. A tshirt. And your rifle.
But by-th-by, Highpower and Smallbore "coat" shooters are not allowed to use a sling for support. Coat and glove = okay.
I'll never say my Monard makes no difference in my scores.
In the same line though, I don't deserve any shit for how I shoot without it. I grew up shooting, but I didn't grow up shooting at paper targets.
A coat does not make up for lack of core strength, holding drills, dry fire, and live fire anymore than it does structural issues with the position itself. (ie: doing something stupid like shooting it as though it's a Silver Pigeon instead of like an Annie 1913)
20 lb rifles aren't conformist to your desires of them. They make YOU do what THEY want. Best get used to that, and get along with it.
-Nate
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I’m ok with just T-shirt and 7# rifle. Sling or no sling. But a 20# rifle and I don’t get along very well.
My Sig P290RS gives me quite a challenge at 100yds.....
But some days it’s been 8 for 8.
The NRA A-25 is for 100 yard prone and has a 10 ring measuring 3 inches in diameter. If consistently holding a 3 inch group was fairly easy, I’m sure than 10-ring would be smaller.
The NRA A-25 target is a Smallbore target used in Conventional Smallbore Prone matches. There are no Smallbore matches where it is used for a Standing stage. A match consists of 2 targets with 10 shots fired at each record bull for 40 record shots. The match winner will typically need a score of 400 with a high (30+) X count. The X ring is 1 inch in diameter.
The best fitting example that I can offer the OP is the current NRA National record for 20 shots standing at 100 yards on the SR-1 target (1.35" X ring, 3.35" 10 ring) which is a 199-9X.
For additional frame of reference, the current NRA National record for 40 shots standing on the International 300 meter target (10 Centimeter 10 ring fired at 300 meters) is 388.
Both of these examples are fired with center fire rifles.
The best fitting example that I can offer the OP is the current NRA National record for 20 shots standing at 100 yards on the SR-1 target (1.35" X ring, 3.35" 10 ring) which is a 199-9X.
For additional frame of reference, the current NRA National record for 40 shots standing on the International 300 meter target (10 Centimeter 10 ring fired at 300 meters) is 388.
Both of these examples are fired with center fire rifles.
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At 100 yards I was shooting 90's. 6.35 inch 9 ring, on a good day I stayed in the black, on a bad day I was in the repair center, about 10" with a 9.35 inch 8 ring. Without a coat I was still in the 7 ring, 12.35 but much more spread out. Right now I'm using the 8 ring way too much.
Just skimming I think there are two silhouette shooters in this thread, they are familiar with real unsupported.
It gets much harder in the IHMSA discipline. I've shot NRA SB, NRA CLA, IHMSA, and yes High Power.
True unsupported is hard. Standing with a sling greatly improved scores. Add a jacket and a glove and it's almost cheating.
With a precision 22, offhand, you, rifle, and your swinging winky.
2" at 50m
4" at 100m
8" at 200m
That's all pretty good shooting even if you can do it half the time.
It gets much harder in the IHMSA discipline. I've shot NRA SB, NRA CLA, IHMSA, and yes High Power.
True unsupported is hard. Standing with a sling greatly improved scores. Add a jacket and a glove and it's almost cheating.
With a precision 22, offhand, you, rifle, and your swinging winky.
2" at 50m
4" at 100m
8" at 200m
That's all pretty good shooting even if you can do it half the time.
This thread is making me feel very inadequate with my off hand abilities.
I would say I am Minute of Deer off hand at 100 yards, not great
I would say I am Minute of Deer off hand at 100 yards, not great
It takes proper form and lots and lots of practice.
And patience. The patience to know when NOT to shoot, and the maturity to realize that you ALLOW yourself to fire less than perfect shots.
Want to have some fun? Shoot offhand at a nra long range target @ 1000yds. Only have done it twice so far, 181 4x is my best. Iron sights, of course
Hey Alan, good to have you in thread!
Shawn and I had puttered around the idea of an Offhand Palma at Atterbury for a day or two. We never did it—kinda doubt the level of interest, even among knuckledraggers, unless it’s an MR 300-500-600, where the 20” .223 is still ballistically reasonable.
But I’ve shot the A2 at 600, 800, and 1,000 offhand. Quite a bit at 300 on the SR.
The 1,000 wasn’t that terrible really, but I didn’t attempt a full stage, and I only had 5-6 mph directly in my face, gentle pickups at mayyybe 8. I’d also already finished a 600 agg prone.
I like "almost cheating" at 200yds with a service rifle...With my PRS rifle, it's downright "challenging".
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A lot of shooters grumble about having an Offhand stage, stating it's completely pointless. I do agree that it is extremely difficult with a typically unbalanced PRS rig; Extra-heavy barrel and no weight in the buttstock.
However, we practice all other positions right? So a little work on the fundamentals of building a proper stance using bone support and dry-fire will do wonders in gaining proficiency.
However, we practice all other positions right? So a little work on the fundamentals of building a proper stance using bone support and dry-fire will do wonders in gaining proficiency.
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And shoot at little stuff. Say, the paper tab off the end of a box of .22 at 100 yards. Maybe the end of a pop can at same. Try out regular paper plates at 200 yards.
The idea is not to shoot it like skeet where you’re ambushing though. Stage just alllllll that you can out of the trigger.
Offhand trigger pulling is usually more assertive than prone, but definitely not a shotgun yank.
Yeesh...followthrough, head and inner ear position, rifle balance and location within the stance, holding drills, ball and dummy, pistol cross training, slow rifles like air and .22, use of irons to train......
I’ll quit while I’m ahead.
Ummm, yeah. I think you should have skipped that last cup of coffee. But good info though.
Considering I've done this:
At 200 meters...
A lot.
Yes...ill stick by my statement.
A rifle with sling, jacket, and glove, offhand at 200M, is a lot easier than bare bones offhand.
This is a standard NRA 100-yard highpower rifle target. The 10-ring is 3.35 inches edge-to-edge. Shoot an 89 -93.99 (ten shots in ten minutes) and you shoot an expert score.
I absolutely agree with your statement. There isn't a single point of bone support in that silhouette hold and it's strictly "muscle control". Kudos to your abilities!
Almost anyone is able, it has to be embraced, and initiative must be applied.
Saying "its too hard" or "this isn't needed" or "this is stupid" or "this would be better with a crutch", will not improve the fundamentals.
Good Offhand shooters are hanging out in the 96-98% range on the SR target, and probably 25% X count or better (1.5 MOA X Ring).
Excellent are in the 98-99%, and north of 40% X count.
Winning Silhouette shooters have the capability of cleaning (100% on a 3.5 MOA Target) the SR Highpower target, in a Tshirt.
Winning ISSF Smallbore 3P shooters have the capability of X-cleaning the 1.5 MOA X-ring of the SR target, in a full custom set of pants, boots, and coat...if their position can withstand any recoil (which is not a guarantee).
Having shot many of the above sports, my money is on experienced winners of Rifle Silhouette and Schuetzen competition for overall precision with a rifle on their feet.
Let me know when you're shooting mid 190s on the SR target with a jacket and a glove.
Did i ever fucking say I could?
Completely misunderstanding what I'm saying but um yeah....your dick is bigger than mine.
Carry on.
While you are at it, let me know when you are shooting a 36x40 unlimited standing....with a pistol.
Guys, relax, your dicks are both short.
So, it came to me that maybe all this talk of different targets might mean very little to some readers, on its own. Here are a few of the targets we’re discussing.
You’re gonna find I spread hate around about equally. I’ve shot all of these a fair bit, so I’m justified in my love/hate relationships. I also have nothing but respect for anybody doing well on any of them, and anybody who’s working their ass off at 4 am in the basement, or rushing to the range after work to get in some practice before dark, driving and striving to get better.
This is a 25 yard mathematical and visual representation of the SR target, on 8.5x11” to be used in reduced course practice Offhand. I admit, it’s one of my better targets from that time..a 198. That was fired with a Kimber 82 I worked pretty heavily, Gehmann irons, and probably Wolf ME.
Next, we have the full size “SR” target. That’s a .223 round and obviously a Quarter for scale.
Simpler might be: hang your ball cap at 200 paces and figure out how to use a heavy centerfire rifle to add most of 20 ventilation holes to it, in almost any weather condition. A good Highpower Offhand shooter can bring out the believer in you as to how “relevant” maybe the antiquated sport really still is. Guarantee it.
When you can hit that ballcap most of the time, you’re on your way to being ready to start Silhouette.
********
If you’re an International (ISSF, USA Shooting, Olympic) Rifle competitor, you are much like an F-35 Raptor. Wayyy cool, wayyy precise, extremely expensive, and perhaps less practical than you could be.
What follows is the little 10m target you grew up on, and may compete on still, with a precision Air Rifle. The 10 ring is not a ring, being that you felt 1/2 mm was enough space at 10 meters to contain most of your shots.
For anybody else looking in on that target, they laugh and say things like “bullshit”, and “have you told your parents yet..?! (snicker)
The laughter is a defense mechanism, because they understand there’s no way in hell, or on God’s green Earth that they could ever hit a target less than 0.200 MOA with a rifle unless it is bolted down, at any range, anytime. Much less on their fucking feet, with irons.
Shooting suits that look like a tropical bird notwithstanding, good Air and Smallbore shooters can hammer. Here’s why:
For those who find they prefer longer distance an the “big” rifle (.22 RF), they can move into 50 meter 3 Position, for the ability to also call windage and elevation on every single shot, for 160 rounds or more at a time.
The target, plainly, is a motherfucker. In all of the shooting sports, it is one of the toughest things to learn to hit well. (Unless you’re a Free Pistol guy.)
Here it is, with that same .223 round for reference. The base of the .223 is jusssst nestled inside the 10 ring. So ponder that, at 55 yards or so...
***************
My high opinion, illustrated above, about Silo shooters is because the sport is a neat combination of nasty targets that look easy, very restrictive rules on equipment (seriously...you basically are regulated into shooting with no more support than a shitty Walmart vest), and extremely accurate rifles that you just can’t live up to, along with windage that must be called “on the fly”, under time constraint.... on your feet.
This little beauty (my apologies to Mssr. Shafer for its lack of fresh paint) is a “Turkey”. There are 10 of them, at 77 m. It’s a game of hit or miss, nothing in between. It either “dings” and falls over, or you cry a little every time the dirt goes thud behind it.
That’s a .308 casing on it, for reference. Another reference is a golf ball...next time you’re at the range, drop one off at about 85 yards, and look at it through your scope when you’re back at the firing line. If you cannot hit that golf ball, then you can’t hit Turkeys.
The best Silo shooters are hammering consistent snowmen (8/10) on these little bastards:
*************
Now in conclusion, I recognize that a lot of this shit is way outside the realm of much of this forum; that’s totally cool, too. But for reference, a guy can shoot at an IPSC the same way...you just have to shoot at the small part. That little head will make you answer for your Redbull on the way to the range, if you’ll stand and shoot at it.
Accompanied by another .308 casing, this one is a 1/3 scale AR500 I’ve been shooting from 50, 75, and 100 with the Silo and RF Sporter rifles, polishing up for the fall season...and some messing around “think I can hit it?” from uh..a “bit” further with my kid:
So there are about “a lot” of ways to learn to shoot well on your feet. The key to it all though is effort and persistence. I guess I’ve been persisting for almost 30 years, and it’s been the longest running joy in my life to try to “shoot groups the size of my fist at 100 paces.”
-Nate
So, it came to me that maybe all this talk of different targets might mean very little to some readers, on its own. Here are a few of the targets we’re discussing.
You’re gonna find I spread hate around about equally. I’ve shot all of these a fair bit, so I’m justified in my love/hate relationships. I also have nothing but respect for anybody doing well on any of them, and anybody who’s working their ass off at 4 am in the basement, or rushing to the range after work to get in some practice before dark, driving and striving to get better.
This is a 25 yard mathematical and visual representation of the SR target, on 8.5x11” to be used in reduced course practice Offhand. I admit, it’s one of my better targets from that time..a 198. That was fired with a Kimber 82 I worked pretty heavily, Gehmann irons, and probably Wolf ME.
Next, we have the full size “SR” target. That’s a .223 round and obviously a Quarter for scale.
Simpler might be: hang your ball cap at 200 paces and figure out how to use a heavy centerfire rifle to add most of 20 ventilation holes to it, in almost any weather condition. A good Highpower Offhand shooter can bring out the believer in you as to how “relevant” maybe the antiquated sport really still is. Guarantee it.
When you can hit that ballcap most of the time, you’re on your way to being ready to start Silhouette.
********
If you’re an International (ISSF, USA Shooting, Olympic) Rifle competitor, you are much like an F-35 Raptor. Wayyy cool, wayyy precise, extremely expensive, and perhaps less practical than you could be.
What follows is the little 10m target you grew up on, and may compete on still, with a precision Air Rifle. The 10 ring is not a ring, being that you felt 1/2 mm was enough space at 10 meters to contain most of your shots.
For anybody else looking in on that target, they laugh and say things like “bullshit”, and “have you told your parents yet..?! (snicker)
The laughter is a defense mechanism, because they understand there’s no way in hell, or on God’s green Earth that they could ever hit a target less than 0.200 MOA with a rifle unless it is bolted down, at any range, anytime. Much less on their fucking feet, with irons.
Shooting suits that look like a tropical bird notwithstanding, good Air and Smallbore shooters can hammer. Here’s why:
For those who find they prefer longer distance an the “big” rifle (.22 RF), they can move into 50 meter 3 Position, for the ability to also call windage and elevation on every single shot, for 160 rounds or more at a time.
The target, plainly, is a motherfucker. In all of the shooting sports, it is one of the toughest things to learn to hit well. (Unless you’re a Free Pistol guy.)
Here it is, with that same .223 round for reference. The base of the .223 is jusssst nestled inside the 10 ring. So ponder that, at 55 yards or so...
***************
My high opinion, illustrated above, about Silo shooters is because the sport is a neat combination of nasty targets that look easy, very restrictive rules on equipment (seriously...you basically are regulated into shooting with no more support than a shitty Walmart vest), and extremely accurate rifles that you just can’t live up to, along with windage that must be called “on the fly”, under time constraint.... on your feet.
This little beauty (my apologies to Mssr. Shafer for its lack of fresh paint) is a “Turkey”. There are 10 of them, at 77 m. It’s a game of hit or miss, nothing in between. It either “dings” and falls over, or you cry a little every time the dirt goes thud behind it.
That’s a .308 casing on it, for reference. Another reference is a golf ball...next time you’re at the range, drop one off at about 85 yards, and look at it through your scope when you’re back at the firing line. If you cannot hit that golf ball, then you can’t hit Turkeys.
The best Silo shooters are hammering consistent snowmen (8/10) on these little bastards:
*************
Now in conclusion, I recognize that a lot of this shit is way outside the realm of much of this forum; that’s totally cool, too. But for reference, a guy can shoot at an IPSC the same way...you just have to shoot at the small part. That little head will make you answer for your Redbull on the way to the range, if you’ll stand and shoot at it.
Accompanied by another .308 casing, this one is a 1/3 scale AR500 I’ve been shooting from 50, 75, and 100 with the Silo and RF Sporter rifles, polishing up for the fall season...and some messing around “think I can hit it?” from uh..a “bit” further with my kid:
So there are about “a lot” of ways to learn to shoot well on your feet. The key to it all though is effort and persistence. I guess I’ve been persisting for almost 30 years, and it’s been the longest running joy in my life to try to “shoot groups the size of my fist at 100 paces.”
-Nate
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NRA and CMP Highpower competition is a great place to look at a statistically significant number of offhand shots from which to draw some conclusions about realistic dispersion of shots in offhand shooting.
The SR target, regardless of what distance it is shot at (200 full course distance/100 reduced), has a 3 minute 10 ring and a 6 minute 9 ring. The black is 9/10/X.
Less than 50% of competitors ever shoot at 95%, with all shots in the black. The key to shooting a good offhand score is turning down bad shots, that is, ones that are going to land somewhere outside of the 9 ring/black. From that baseline, you then refine your hold/position to decrease your wobble, to get a higher and higher percentage of shots in the 10/X rather than the 9 ring.
Now how this applies to the PRS game - you'd have to look at the size/distance equation to determine target size and bounce that up against the stats above to see how good of an offhand shooter you need to be to do well at PRS. I can tell you from shooting pre-PRS matches, that as a good HP offhand shooter I didn't have any problems with the offhand shots the nearby matches called for.
To set 6 MOA as a goal for your offhand, many who don't have experience would scoff at this as a realistic goal. Trust me, you will be presented with many opportunities to land shots much much wider than 6 MOA. I literally spent 10+ hours a week for years to get my scores where I needed for High Master scores, shooting outdoor, indoor at 50 meters w the 22 upper, AND 10 meter air rifle in full international shooting garb with a $3,000 air gun before I could consistently shoot in the 95+% range (5 9s and 5 10/Xs average on the 6 MOA black).
Also keep in mind, we have a 3 minute prep period to try to dial in and stabilize our position and NPA, then an aggregate 1 minute per shot time block (10 shots/10 minutes or 22 shots/22 minutes with 2 sighters), all to try to achieve averaging our shots into a 6 MOA dispersion...
Higher power optics and lighter triggers on the PRS type rifles do present the opportunity to "snap shoot" or "grab" your shots rather than "shoot your hold" with irons and a 4.5 lb trigger, however snap shooting still presents a great opportunity to be well wide of your intended target.
Used with Zak's permission - pre-PRS days slant sniper stage with required offhand targets at 350 yards - We shot at a 2x3 array of SAPI plates I believe.
The SR target, regardless of what distance it is shot at (200 full course distance/100 reduced), has a 3 minute 10 ring and a 6 minute 9 ring. The black is 9/10/X.
Less than 50% of competitors ever shoot at 95%, with all shots in the black. The key to shooting a good offhand score is turning down bad shots, that is, ones that are going to land somewhere outside of the 9 ring/black. From that baseline, you then refine your hold/position to decrease your wobble, to get a higher and higher percentage of shots in the 10/X rather than the 9 ring.
Now how this applies to the PRS game - you'd have to look at the size/distance equation to determine target size and bounce that up against the stats above to see how good of an offhand shooter you need to be to do well at PRS. I can tell you from shooting pre-PRS matches, that as a good HP offhand shooter I didn't have any problems with the offhand shots the nearby matches called for.
To set 6 MOA as a goal for your offhand, many who don't have experience would scoff at this as a realistic goal. Trust me, you will be presented with many opportunities to land shots much much wider than 6 MOA. I literally spent 10+ hours a week for years to get my scores where I needed for High Master scores, shooting outdoor, indoor at 50 meters w the 22 upper, AND 10 meter air rifle in full international shooting garb with a $3,000 air gun before I could consistently shoot in the 95+% range (5 9s and 5 10/Xs average on the 6 MOA black).
Also keep in mind, we have a 3 minute prep period to try to dial in and stabilize our position and NPA, then an aggregate 1 minute per shot time block (10 shots/10 minutes or 22 shots/22 minutes with 2 sighters), all to try to achieve averaging our shots into a 6 MOA dispersion...
Higher power optics and lighter triggers on the PRS type rifles do present the opportunity to "snap shoot" or "grab" your shots rather than "shoot your hold" with irons and a 4.5 lb trigger, however snap shooting still presents a great opportunity to be well wide of your intended target.
Used with Zak's permission - pre-PRS days slant sniper stage with required offhand targets at 350 yards - We shot at a 2x3 array of SAPI plates I believe.
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I'm good for about 4 MOA on a good day with a 9 - 1/2 lb service rifle with iron sights and just a sling.
I have traditionally always used my CZ 452 trainer with a Williams peep sight to test my offhand shooting. If I can consistently hit my 6x8" plate in the 75%+ hit rate from 100yds, standing, no sling...I'm happy with that.
I'll also do the 50yd quick shot drill out of Jeff Cooper's The Art of the Rifle. Its like 3 seconds, rifle butt on hip (high ready), safety on to hit whatever size target you want. Increasingly smaller targets.
Lately I've been using my Marlin 1894 in .357 to do the same style shooting, this time topped with a red dot.
I'll also do the 50yd quick shot drill out of Jeff Cooper's The Art of the Rifle. Its like 3 seconds, rifle butt on hip (high ready), safety on to hit whatever size target you want. Increasingly smaller targets.
Lately I've been using my Marlin 1894 in .357 to do the same style shooting, this time topped with a red dot.
