What is practical advantage of sighting at 200 m?

[LostInTranslation]

I was talking to a guy at range who was sighting his rifle at 200 m. I read about such approach - in theory it gives you more usable elevation adjustment - but wondering if it is practically worth it. I shoot 6.5 creedmoor which has less than 2in drop from 100m to 200m.

At 200m 0.1mils is 2cm. So I can gain 0.25mils extra travel. My scope (Vortex Strike Eagle) has 31mils of travel - unsure if I get 1/2 of it or most of range - but still 0.25 feels like a very small portion - and requires access to 200m range (which is significantly less available where I live).

Am I missing something?

 

[Supersubes]

No, none of that is true.

Think about it. How would using more scope elevation to get to a 200yd zero give you more scope elevation at 1000? That guy is an idiot, zero at 100. 6.5’s need no help getting to their max effective range with standard components and setup.

You get half of the scopes internal travel on a flat base. Any inclination of the scope base will get you that amount of internal travel back. Use some software and figure what 15.5 mils of elevation will get you. Its way way beyond 1k.

Talking to people at the range will likely lower your IQ, dont do it.

 

[LostInTranslation]

No, none of that is true.

Think about it. How would using more scope elevation to get to a 200yd zero give you more scope elevation at 1000? That guy is an idiot, zero at 100. 6.5’s need no help getting to their max effective range with standard components and setup.

You get half of the scopes internal travel on a flat base. Any inclinstion on the scope base will get you that amount back.

That actually makes a lot of sense - since we are not changing setup - absolute settings for 1000 yards won't change (though relative ones - compared to selected zero will).

 

[Tiger_Shilone]

Was he shooting an AR? 50/200, 100 and 300 yard 5.56 AR zeroes all have there fans with pluses and minuses for each. I can see it for a 5.56 gas gun, For precision shooting a long range bolt action, not so much.

edit add ar caliber

 

[LostInTranslation]

Was he shooting an AR? 50/200, 100 and 300 yard AR zeroes all have there fans with pluses and minuses for each. I can see it for a gas gun, For precision shooting a long range bolt action, not so much.

No, 6.5 creedmoor rifle.

 

[Supersubes]

That actually makes a lot of sense - since we are not changing setup - absolute settings for 1000 yards won't change (though relative ones - compared to selected zero will).

Exactly

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

I like to be different for the sake of being different sometimes also. Its ok. Just not in zeroing a rifle.

 

[Aftermath]

I have a 280AI with a lightweight Swarovski scope on it. This scope requires I remove caps to make adjustments with a dime or screwdriver or whatever. The reticle is the BRH. This is my goto deer rifle. I have it zeroed at 272 yards which gives me +3" at about 150 yards and -3" at about 315 yards. At the yardages I generally encounter deer, this is point and shoot. I have shot and have the reticle doped out to 850, just in case.
Having a scope with the more time consuming adjustments and looking for the maximum point blank range given a certain diameter target is the only reason I can think of to NOT zero at 100 yard or meters.

 

[Matches Malone]

Talking to people at the range will likely lower your IQ, dont do it.

Probably the best general bit of life advice worth getting some recognition.

 

[KnowNothing256]

I have a 280AI with a lightweight Swarovski scope on it. This scope requires I remove caps to make adjustments with a dime or screwdriver or whatever. The reticle is the BRH. This is my goto deer rifle. I have it zeroed at 272 yards which gives me +3" at about 150 yards and -3" at about 315 yards. At the yardages I generally encounter deer, this is point and shoot. I have shot and have the reticle doped out to 850, just in case.
Having a scope with the more time consuming adjustments and looking for the maximum point blank range given a certain diameter target is the only reason I can think of to NOT zero at 100 yard or meters.

^^^ This is actually why someone would move a zero past 100 yards: it increases your point blank range, the distance range within which you can aim the center of your crosshairs at a target and get acceptable POI. “Acceptable” is use-dependent; wounding an enemy combatant is an extremely forgiving target, a deer’s vitals less so, a 2 MOA PRS steel plate even less so.

But hunters and war fighters use this concept all the time.

 

[beetroot]

Sighting in at longer ranges is used to have an extended "Point Blank Range", a maximum rise/drop of your bullet out to a certain range, aka a distance you can just point and shoot at your target.

This makes sense for hunting situations but not for target shooting, if you are going to be dialing every shot zeroing your scope at 100yards/meters is easier for most. It also means you won't ever need to dial down for small close up targets. You also have less chance of wind effecting your zero at closer ranges, which is good as any error introduced in sighting in will effect every future shot you take.

The reality is you can sight in your rifle at any distance you like, I don't shoot on a proper range so am often forced to sight in at what ever distance I have available, be that 100m, 92m, 107m etc. So long as put that info into my calculator it doesn't matter.
I shot a match with my 260 zeroed at 55m last year due to last minute equipment changes, didn't effect my performanceat the match in the slightest.

 

[Dthomas3523]

You still zero at 100 for max point blank. You just dial in the dope for the max point blank range you need for that particular scenario.

Stop over complicating things using terminology like “max point blank” to justify it.

The only reason not to use 100 is if you still have turrets that require removing caps and using a screwdriver or nickel to adjust.

 

[KnowNothing256]

You still zero at 100 for max point blank. You just dial in the dope for the max point blank range you need for that particular scenario.

Stop over complicating things using terminology like “max point blank” to justify it.

The only reason not to use 100 is if you still have turrets that require removing caps and using a screwdriver or nickel to adjust.

That’s true for precision rifle shooters, but thousands of hunters still zero “an inch and a half high at 100 yds” or whatever, and don’t touch the elevation knob for the rest of the season.

The OP asked what the advantage of a zero like this is, and the answer is an extended point blank range, pure and simple. Whether or not folks agree that this is a good strategy is a different discussion. If one shoots comps regularly and gets very comfortable dialing quickly and accurately, then it makes a lot of sense to continue that strategy during hunting season. If not, a “high” or “long” zero will give the average hunter better range on the “point and shoot” scenarios.

 

[beetroot]

You still zero at 100 for max point blank. You just dial in the dope for the max point blank range you need for that particular scenario.

Not going to work if you have a Fudd scope.

 

[Matches Malone]

You still zero at 100 for max point blank. You just dial in the dope for the max point blank range you need for that particular scenario.

That’s not what he was saying. Not everything is PRS oriented. Now this isn’t me disagreeing with you about 100y zeros, and 100y is how I do things but I can also see past my nose and realize other people do things for different reasons. What he’s saying is “hunters” have historically used a flat shooting cartridge and a 200y zero. The min and max PBR has been relative to a animal vital zone. This allows, WITHOUT the need to fiddle with the scope, a shot in vital zone radius from point blank to about 400y. Not much different in the concept of using a 25/200, 36/300, 50/ 200 zero.

That’s what he was implying, without all the details.

The only reason not to use 100 is if you still have turrets that require removing caps and using a screwdriver or nickel to adjust.

...Or if you do something stupid like a 60 moa base. There would be no possible way to zero a 100. I’m old enough to remember this trend before the Charlie tarac came around, because I’m older than 10

 

[Vamike9]

You still zero at 100 for max point blank. You just dial in the dope for the max point blank range you need for that particular scenario.

Stop over complicating things using terminology like “max point blank” to justify it.

The only reason not to use 100 is if you still have turrets that require removing caps and using a screwdriver or nickel to adjust.

Adding to that, in simple terms Max point blank means that with a 6.5CM you'll be able to zero anywhere from about 80yds-120yds and have a so called "100yd zero."
The bullet is at a relatively flat point of its travel between those distances, only varying about .1 Mil which is within the shooter error while zeroing.
Hope this helps...

 

[JustSendit]

You still zero at 100 for max point blank. You just dial in the dope for the max point blank range you need for that particular scenario.

Stop over complicating things using terminology like “max point blank” to justify it.

The only reason not to use 100 is if you still have turrets that require removing caps and using a screwdriver or nickel to adjust.

Why is this concept so difficult to grasp? Zero at 100 dial for 200. Point blank 200 zero achieved. You a 500m point blank zero? Dial or hold and it you’re there. There’s no need to setup paper at those distances.

The only time I’ve zeroed past 100 is due to the mechanical limitations of the equipment. For example a lot of bias in a rail and I could not dial the scope to 100m. This is particularly prevalent with the m107. That being said I’ve had a few students bring RPRs with 30moa bias, we had to zero them on steel at 300.

 

[ma smith]

The 55/200 or whatever zero is good for field-work...

 

[_Windrider_]

Sigh.

 

[theLBC]

 

[308pirate]

You still zero at 100 for max point blank. You just dial in the dope for the max point blank range you need for that particular scenario.

Stop over complicating things using terminology like “max point blank” to justify it.

The only reason not to use 100 is if you still have turrets that require removing caps and using a screwdriver or nickel to adjust.

Not going to work if you have a Fudd scope.

Reading comprehension is important

 

[308pirate]

That’s true for precision rifle shooters, but thousands of hunters still zero “an inch and a half high at 100 yds” or whatever, and don’t touch the elevation knob for the rest of the season.

The OP asked what the advantage of a zero like this is, and the answer is an extended point blank range, pure and simple. Whether or not folks agree that this is a good strategy is a different discussion. If one shoots comps regularly and gets very comfortable dialing quickly and accurately, then it makes a lot of sense to continue that strategy during hunting season. If not, a “high” or “long” zero will give the average hunter better range on the “point and shoot” scenarios.

He did state that in a much more succint way......look at the last sentence of @Dthomas3523's post that you quoted

 

[308pirate]

Why is this concept so difficult to grasp? Zero at 100 dial for 200. Point blank 200 zero achieved. You a 500m point blank zero? Dial or hold and it you’re there. There’s no need to setup paper at those distances.

Because not every rifle needs or has a scope with turrets meant for dialing up and down for every distance or have reticles with stadia lines that can be used to correct for drop.

Why is THAT concept so difficult to grasp?

When a hammer is all you know how to use, every problem seems like a fucking nail doesn't it?

 

[308pirate]

Any video that has to qualify its content with the words "SEAL", "special ops", "Green beret", or "tactical" is not worth watching.

 

[oldiephrt]

To all you guys who are better hunters than I,..... My prey does not respond well to the command,"Stop" ,"Wait","Stay" ,"I need to range you and dial". For all inert targets, I agree, dialing woks.

 

[Tokay444]

To all you guys who are better hunters than I,..... My prey does not respond well to the command,"Stop" ,"Wait","Stay" ,"I need to range you and dial". For all inert targets, I agree, dialing woks.

That's why they make hold over reticles.

 

[theLBC]

Any video that has to qualify its content with the words "SEAL", "special ops", "Green beret", or "tactical" is not worth watching.

perhaps, but for a short range (0-300 yards) weapon, the 36yd zero could make sense for some.

 

[308pirate]

perhaps, but for a short range (0-300 yards) weapon, the 36yd zero could make sense for some.

Or a 225 yd zero, or a 200 yd zero, or a 275 yd zero, or any number of zeroes that still give you a 300 - 350 yd MPBR depending on your target radius

If shooters would just learn how trajectory works and then made educated choices for their situation without giving a fuck what anyone else thought, there would be no need for "special forces" telling them where to zero their rifle.

 

[beetroot]

Reading comprehension is important

There are plenty of scopes that are finger adjustable but not suitable for dialing.

 

[theLBC]

Or a 225 yd zero, or a 200 yd zero, or a 275 yd zero, or any number of zeroes that still give you a 300 - 350 yd MPBR depending on your target radius

If shooters would just learned how trajectory works and then made educated choices for their situation without giving a fuck what anyone else thought, there would be no need for "special forces" telling them where to zero their rifle.

most people are fucking stupid. look who is running the country.

 

[JustSendit]

Because not every rifle needs or has a scope with turrets meant for dialing up and down for every distance or have reticles with stadia lines that can be used to correct for drop.

Why is THAT concept so difficult to grasp?

When a hammer is all you know how to use, every problem seems like a fucking nail doesn't it?

Zero at 100, dial the drop for 200, confirm the data, put the cap back on. I just did a 200yd zero without actually shooting paper at 200yds. What’s wrong with doing that?

 

[308pirate]

Zero at 100, dial the drop for 200, confirm the data, put the cap back on. I just did a 200yd zero without actually shooting paper at 200yds. What’s wrong with doing that?

Or you could just look at your ballistic solver, adjust your 100 yd POI so that it matches what the solver predicts it should be for a 200 yd zero, and done.

 

[JustSendit]

Are you really so dense that you don't understand that your method doesn't work with many (most) scopes?

Dude I’m looking for a discussion, if you disagree with an approach, I’m absolutely here to learn to. I’ve screwed with scopes for a few decades and ran down a rabbit hole of vintage scopes. So I’ve messed with a lot of stuff competitively, hunting and combat. I might have missed a memo on what your describing. I’m not dense - just give me an example and I can have that ah ha moment.

 

[JustSendit]

Or you could just look at your ballistic solver, adjust your 100 yd POI so that it matches what the solver predicts it should be for a 200 yd zero, and done.

Of course yeah. That is what I am saying for the traditional hunting sight-in. It’s a 200yd zero, giving a solid pbz from 0-300(+/-) depending on the game a caliber.

The OP was talking about a guy literally setting up a target at 200m. That’s not necessarily a requirement, that’s where I was going with it.

 

[MOGNR]

Great share, thanks!

 

[StLPro2A]

I was talking to a guy at range who was sighting his rifle at 200 m. I read about such approach - in theory it gives you more usable elevation adjustment - but wondering if it is practically worth it. I shoot 6.5 creedmoor which has less than 2in drop from 100m to 200m.

At 200m 0.1mils is 2cm. So I can gain 0.25mils extra travel. My scope (Vortex Strike Eagle) has 31mils of travel - unsure if I get 1/2 of it or most of range - but still 0.25 feels like a very small portion - and requires access to 200m range (which is significantly less available where I live).

Am I missing something?

Brian Litz at Applied Ballistics strongly advises to always zero at 100. Easier to find 100yd range to confirm zero after traveling. Less atmospheric interaction in zeroing at 100yd vs 200yd....every little bit impacts consistency. Cant is a very big impact on POI consistency. Be sure you use a level.....electronic SendIt!....is more accurate and easier to confirm vertical than a bubble level. Cant moves POI more horizontally than vertically. Longer distance zero is often used by hunters shooting shorter distances under 500-600 yds maximum range to not have to dial solutions for speed in quick opportunities......Maximum Point Blank Range concept. But, understanding ballistics, one knows the hold for all intended ranges.

 

[JG26_Irish]

Brian Litz at Applied Ballistics strongly advises to always zero at 100. Easier to find 100yd range to confirm zero after traveling. Less atmospheric interaction in zeroing at 100yd vs 200yd....every little bit impacts consistency. Cant is a very big impact on POI consistency. Be sure you use a level.....electronic SendIt!....is more accurate and easier to confirm vertical than a bubble level. Cant moves POI more horizontally than vertically. Longer distance zero is often used by hunters shooting shorter distances under 500-600 yds maximum range to not have to dial solutions for speed in quick opportunities......Maximum Point Blank Range concept. But, understanding ballistics, one knows the hold for all intended ranges.

Th 100y zero and dialing up for longer shots is good advice most of the time, especially with a good optic with proper turrets and mil dot reticle. It is what I do with most of my centerfire rifles today. Years ago, I did have an experience which for that specific situation setting a 250y zero worked really well for me. I was young and dumb and did not have the best equipment at the time. I was prairie dog hunting with a Rem 700 varmint in 223. We were in the Dakotas and the average shot was 350y and ranged from 100y out past 500y. My scope was equipped with a tgt dot reticle and was not the greatest for dialing each shot since every shot was going to be different we were mostly taking the "Dust n Adjust" approach. I found that with a 250y zero, I could aim at their head out to 350y and be insured of a hit nearly every time. Out past that I was just using a hold over method rather than messing with the turrets. It was crude and would not have worked for other prey such as coyotes, foxes or antelope for example which would run if you missed the first shot. But for the PD's this less than precise method worked great and I did bag a coyote on the move from right to left at just over 400y with the 1st shot using this approach but after shooting PD's that are no bigger than a soda can at 350y and beyond all week, hitting a coyote at 400y seemed like a chip shot.

 

[Dthomas3523]

You guys go ahead and beat the “what if’s” and every single scenario to death.

If you want to shoot junk gear (there’s plenty of budget gear that’s reliable), we aren’t going to tailor every response around the guy who can’t hit a pie plate, has a junk optic, shoots a box of ammo per year, and wants to toss around words like max point blank.

Its 2021. Spend a few hundred on a non junk optic, do a tracking test to confirm reliability, zero at 100 and dial whatever you need. No back and forth and what if’s needed.

 

[308pirate]

Great share, thanks!

Seriously? Nobody can think this through on their own without "navy seal dude" telling them how?

 

[308pirate]

You guys go ahead and beat the “what if’s” and every single scenario to death.

If you want to shoot junk gear (there’s plenty of budget gear that’s reliable), we aren’t going to tailor every response around the guy who can’t hit a pie plate, has a junk optic, shoots a box of ammo per year, and wants to toss around words like max point blank.

Its 2021. Spend a few hundred on a non junk optic, do a tracking test to confirm reliability, zero at 100 and dial whatever you need. No back and forth and what if’s needed.

BS

There is more than one valid approach to zeroing a rifle whether you think so or not.

 

[beetroot]

BS

There is more than one valid approach to zeroing a rifle whether you think so or not.

Clearly there is only one way to do it, end of discussion.

If you don't have a scope that dials throw it in the trash and get a new one.

The real question is wil my rifle still be accurate if I zero it for 100m rather than 100yds, I know yards is the correct way but can we make an exception for meters too?

 

[roostercogburn98]

Pretty sure the guy OP ran into at the range was just a misinformed GI. The army did go through a phase of 200m zero when the AWG was going hard and fast for training marksmanship. It wasn’t so there would be more elevation availability. It was to war game the qualification for rifles and have less of hold over/under. In the end it was a way to simplify shooting for the real knuckle draggers that couldn’t grasp it with a 25/300 zero on an M4/16. The amount of hold over/under was less , which gave the shooter a better chance of hitting without having to dial or remember which stadia line did what on his acog, or a simple red dot if all he had was a cco

 

[AIAW]

 

[Maxduty]

Wait, I'm pretty sure it's because the bullet hasn't "gone to sleep" until at least 200 yards, so you can't possibly know how accurate it can be til then.

 

[Da Blues]

So I joined Sniper's Hide so I could "read" better advice than just talking to random folks at the range. I mean that made sense to me. Now I read this thread where a shooter asks a simple question about zeroing and the answers are all over the place. Man I love the internet..........at least at the range I can look the person who's talking in the eye and make a judgement how much weight I am going to put into their advice.

Here it's just a wild guess who's a real shooter and who's sitting in their mom's basement playing Call of Duty all night.

 

[DairyDictator]

So I joined Sniper's Hide so I could "read" better advice than just talking to random folks at the range. I mean that made sense to me. Now I read this thread where a shooter asks a simple question about zeroing and the answers are all over the place. Man I love the internet..........at least at the range I can look the person who's talking in the eye and make a judgement how much weight I am going to put into their advice.

Here it's just a wild guess who's a real shooter and who's sitting in their mom's basement playing Call of Duty all night.

That's how the rest of the internet works... why would this be any different?

 

[oldiephrt]

So I joined Sniper's Hide so I could "read" better advice than just talking to random folks at the range. I mean that made sense to me. Now I read this thread where a shooter asks a simple question about zeroing and the answers are all over the place. Man I love the internet..........at least at the range I can look the person who's talking in the eye and make a judgement how much weight I am going to put into their advice.

Here it's just a wild guess who's a real shooter and who's sitting in their mom's basement playing Call of Duty all night.

some discernment is required when reading. Look for responses that don't require expenditure of massive amounts of money from shills.

 

[Holliday]

You still zero at 100 for max point blank. You just dial in the dope for the max point blank range you need for that particular scenario.

Stop over complicating things using terminology like “max point blank” to justify it.

The only reason not to use 100 is if you still have turrets that require removing caps and using a screwdriver or nickel to adjust.

This is what I do. I zero my 280AI at 100, then when hunting set my dial at 300 for the day’s environmentals. Boom 300 yard zero .....

 

[Dthomas3523]

BS

There is more than one valid approach to zeroing a rifle whether you think so or not.

Of course. But there is a difference between multiple ways vs the most efficient and easiest.

Unless you don’t have dial-able turrets, there is no way more efficient than 100yd zero and then dialing a max point blank. Just like you can stand bladed off with a rifle on a barricade and still hit everything. But you don’t teach it as it’s not the most efficient way or the best idea.

Also as my post mentions, we aren’t going the break down every single digit percentage scenario. I’m not going to put an asterisk and say “well if your scope doesn’t track, you can’t dial.”

You’re wrong, it happens.

 

[oldiephrt]

Dthomas3523 Having read your treatise on zeroing, I find nothing to argue about. Sorry.​