Advanced Marksmanship What is the best way to measure accuracy/marksman

[ColtJ]

Hello,

Is there a way that proves accuracy over another or when do you go above and beyond and prove excellent accuracy?

I noticed "groups" are commonly used to show accuracy, mostly 3 shots. Is a 3 shot group the standard? If so what does a 5 shot group qualify as? What about 10?

Or would a 10 shot drill prove better accuracy, see like for example of what i mean: http://www.impactdatabooks.com/v/vspfile...ls/D-RBD10D.pdf

What about position? Bench or prone? Does one qualify you as a better marksman over the other?

What about using accessories other than a scope? Bipods, shooting rests and/or bags?

I am asking because i see a lot of groups but rarely (i said rare not never) do you get all the details, does this mean they are irrelevant? As long as you acheive the tightest group?

But wouldn't using so many extra hardware only prove the rifle's accuracy, not the skill of the marksman?

Is there a position, rifle setup and target type that would measure the marksman and the rifle best?

Is there a standard to go by and if not should there be one?

 

[Redmanss]

Re: What is the best way to measure accuracy/marksman

It really depends on your discipline. Service Rifle, NRA, CMP, Palma, BR, F-Class, Appleseed, etc all have their own standards in search of Distinguished Badges or record books. Same goes for pistol whether it's Service Pistol, Bullseye, IPSC or any of the many other sanctioning organizations.

However, tactical shooting is a completely different beast. No two matches are the same. Even the same match is different year to year. Tactical shooting brings the skills of many disciplines into one theater of competition or employment. You have to be a master in position shooting, shooting for groups, run and gun, known distance, range estimation, movers, weak side, shoot/no shoot, and so on. There really is no set and standard measure of performance other than successfully accomplishing your job or placing well in the last competition you entered.

For a measure of your performance there you have to put yourself to the test, whether in competition, on the job, or on your own. You have to push the limits, get out of the comfort zone, and see what you and your equipment's capability really is.

I'm much more proud of myself or impressed by someone that can hold 5 shots at 1moa at 600yds or putting first shot on a UKD 2moa target at ~843yds in a gusting wind than I am of someone shooting a <.1moa group at 100yds from BR or bipod.

Your link didn't work for me, but I think this is the same:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=724840
Clean this one, getting up between each shot forcing yourself to establish your position each time, and you're doing very well.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: What is the best way to measure accuracy/marksman

IMHO it's a matter of knowing your limits; the shot not taken sometimes being the better one.

Marksmanship is about hitting the target the greatest percent of the time; as well as about knowing that the percentage is not a fixed number.

Perfection? What's that; I've never seen any...

 

[Graham]

Re: What is the best way to measure accuracy/marksman

Accuracy is the closeness of the shots to the point of aim. The closer POI is to POA the more accurate the system. Because all groups are shot one at a time we're always shooting groups. Precision is the relative size of the group. When the shots are grouped tightly precision is achieved. The two go together because it is not possible to achieve reliable accuracy without precision. The rest is relative: An accurate rifle for us is not the same as an accurate rifle for a Benchrest shooter.

 

[ColtJ]

Re: What is the best way to measure accuracy/marksman

Thanks.

As mentioned above it really does depend on your discipline, which would make my question seem very vague or too open.

The link in my original post has been fixed. It was a ten shot drill but the 21 shot drill posted in the first reply would be even more impressive.

Using the 21 shot drill as the test we will use for my question, at 100 yards. Would shooting from the prone position over the bench position (or vice versa) be more difficult or would one prove one to be a better marksman? Using just a bipod.

Thanks.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: What is the best way to measure accuracy/marksman

Without a destination, who knows what route to take.

 

[MALLARD]

Re: What is the best way to measure accuracy/marksman

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Redmanss</div><div class="ubbcode-body">someone shooting a <.1moa group at 100yds from BR or bipod.
</div></div>
thats still pretty good though right ?because i do it all the time

, ha

i agree allot of people use 3 shot groups as an indicator for accuracy , personally i think a 20 shot group is a true indication of what you and your rifle are doing at particular place and time.

there's accuracy and precision , accuracy= small groups , precision= hitting intended target

doing both is good i think , but i'd take precision over accuracy.

i dont think the amount of gear you have really matters , at the end of the day you have to pull the trigger like everyone else, but im sure it helps.

shooting off the bench or in the prone ? naturally i think prone is more difficult because the ground is not comfortable. Sitting in chairs is nice. Even with a mat , its harder for me to spends hours on my stomach then sitting in a chair.

usually shooting off a bench implies some type of shade/cover , shooting in the prone usually implies shooting in direct sunlight , which sucks.

 

[Jaeger308]

Re: What is the best way to measure accuracy/marksman

Marksmanship has two aspects to it:

Accuracy, what your equipment is capable of, this is primarily all those bug hole groups you see shot at 100 yards. Yes you need to be able to drive the firearm to achieve them but you are testing the system.

Consistency, what you are capable of, this is discipline specific. This is open ended and very broad.

To evaluate an individual I would say consistency is the test. For me, like Redmanss, a first round hit at long range is the bar I strive for; because that is the discipline I practice.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: What is the best way to measure accuracy/marksman

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jaeger308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Marksmanship has two aspects to it:

Accuracy, what your equipment is capable of, this is primarily all those bug hole groups you see shot at 100 yards. Yes you need to be able to drive the firearm to achieve them but you are testing the system.

Consistency, what you are capable of, this is discipline specific. This is open ended and very broad.

To evaluate an individual I would say consistency is the test. For me, like Redmanss, a first round hit at long range is the bar I strive for; because that is the discipline I practice.
</div></div>

Comments like the above make me think Jaeger308 knows a thing or two about good shooting.

 

[Jaeger308]

Re: What is the best way to measure accuracy/marksman

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jaeger308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Marksmanship has two aspects to it:

Accuracy, what your equipment is capable of, this is primarily all those bug hole groups you see shot at 100 yards. Yes you need to be able to drive the firearm to achieve them but you are testing the system.

Consistency, what you are capable of, this is discipline specific. This is open ended and very broad.

To evaluate an individual I would say consistency is the test. For me, like Redmanss, a first round hit at long range is the bar I strive for; because that is the discipline I practice.
</div></div>

Comments like the above make me think Jaeger308 knows a thing or two about good shooting.</div></div>

My real hobby is reloading, I go to the range just to empty them out

 

[customshooter]

Re: What is the best way to measure accuracy/marksman

The number ONE mistake in nomenclature used in firearms basics is accuracy.

Referencing group size has NOTHING to do with accuracy. It is called PRECISION.

As far as your question, you need to take into account what is termed as standard deviation or SD (google it). thus, for 10 shots, two 5 shot groups are better than one 10 shot group...

 

[calling4life]

Re: What is the best way to measure accuracy/marksman

I've heard the " 3 shot groups test your rifles capabilities, 5 shot groups test yours."

My mind gets in the way with groups at 100-200yds, part of the reason to do these one shot dot drills, you can focus on hitting your mark, instead of not trying to f'up the group you have going. Not to diminish the need to overcome that mental hindrance.

Marksmanship means hitting your target (be it an egg or a tank)
Precision implies tolerances, it doesn't have to be group size, it can be; can you place a shot so precisely that you can separate a match head from the body...
Accuracy is subjective, therefore, open to more interpretation, minute of deer or MOA... So on

 

[ColtJ]

Re: What is the best way to measure accuracy/marksman

Thanks customshooter.

Calling4life, I agree, I too find sometimes I break down mentally. Which means I need more experience.

 

[damoncali]

Re: What is the best way to measure accuracy/marksman

If you're measuring your marksmanship skills, generally, you're trying to hit something. (Benchrest group shooting is the oddball here). So you use some measure of hits - typically scores.

Usually, when people talk about groups, they are referring to the the rifle's accuracy under the best conditions that are practical (off a bench, generally). That's why nobody mentions them. Again some Benchrest competitions are an exception - shooting groups that small takes an impressive amount of skill and the techniques used matter a lot.

For some people shooting groups is fun. For me, it's just a necessary part of making sure my rifle is working well - the real fun is going out and testing my skill. (I know it's popular to blame all accuracy woes on the shooter here, but it's really not that hard to outshoot a 1 MOA rifle off a bench- and a 1MOA rifle is plenty good for all but the highest levels of skill in, say, a high power match.

As for the number of shots required - it's just a matter of how confident you want to be that you actually know the rifle's capability. Typically, that means several groups of 5-7 shots each.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: What is the best way to measure accuracy/marksman

Measurement of any sort begins at point. When there is no measurable displacement between point of aim and point of impact the firearm is said to be zeroed. Since most shooters however cannot get zero displacement, that's to say, they cannot shoot bullets consistently into the hole vacated by an earlier one, triangulation of a group is used to get a "zero". And, when these groups are relatively small they indicate equipment and shooter capability, thus, "grouping" has become a time honored method of appraisal.

Regarding marksmanship measure, I think it's about hitting where aimed, to any distance the bullet can get to nose-on, in any condition.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: What is the best way to measure accuracy/marksman

If memory serves, the NRA's various marksmanship rankings are based on the percentages of points earned out of the total possible.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: What is the best way to measure accuracy/marksman

Those rankings are called classifications, and they permit a shooter to compete with others who have similar skill. Also, the classification system keeps things interesting, promoting shooting to higher plateaus. For NRA LR there are 6 classification: Master Un-Classified, Marksman, Sharpshooter, Expert, Master, and High Master. 9H could give details on the matter. I'm not sure, I understand it all.

 

[pickpick]

Re: What is the best way to measure accuracy/marksman

tag for the info I was searching out. Thanks again for the wealth of knowledge freely shared.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: What is the best way to measure accuracy/marksman

The measure accuracy is more then groups, or hitting a single target at 1000 yards in 20 mph varying winds.

The measure of accuracy is consistency. Meaning across the course, regardless of disaplan. A nice five shot group is nice, but the measure of accuracy is what you do in the match, be it SR, F-class, Tactical Rifle, Pistol (action & bullseye). In SR its in all positions 200-1000 yards. In Tactical its estimating ranges from X - Y, Pistol its Rapid, timed and slow fire.

In SR, my best position is Sitting Rapid. If I can shoot cleans in Setting Rapid, but can't shoot on my hind legs or read the wind at 600, then I'm not what you call an accurate shooter. Same with Tactical or precision rifle, if I find a target, luck out and get the call right on a 700 yard target, and have to walk my way to other targets doesn't mean I'm an accurate shooter.

I don't like groups. I'd rather shoot 90s offhand then 1/2 moa from the bench. To test my accuracy, I'd rather overlay the targets from 200-600, and not just one match but a series of matches throughout the season.

And I drive trucks not rifles.

 

[devildog62]

Re: What is the best way to measure accuracy/marksman

Hahaha ^^^^ +1,000,000 "I drive trucks, not rifles" Hahaha well said sir well said!

 

[rideHPD]

Re: What is the best way to measure accuracy/marksman

If you were relatively new to the game and wanted to test your ability to perform the fundamentals of marksmanship groups are then an ideal indicator of your mistakes, as it is repetition/consistency at its finest. If you're shooting .5 MOA 5rnd groups at 100yrds (or worse even, say multiple fliers) and 1.5 MOA groups at 300yrds, you're going to see your mistakes much more so than if you have random hits and misses on targets of varied variables? Is there a better way to learn?

 

[rideHPD]

Re: What is the best way to measure accuracy/marksman

I forgot to mention that I am assuming the shooter is placing their groups relatively in the same position, on target. For instance shooting four .2 MOA groups at 100yrds is worthless if they are landing 2 inches away from the bull, each in different directions. In the world of laboratory science we call that precisely trash. You have to be able to repeat those same target pictures group to group to be a good marksman and hit targets well down range, not just do the same thing 5 times quickly over a mound of sand; that demonstrates the rifle's capability from my understanding.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: What is the best way to measure accuracy/marksman

At one time, for me, it was all about the group, or all about the rifle, ammunition, and rest. Later, when I got into HP and off the bench it was all about the score. I hardly ever thought about the group except in context to placement. Today, however, I'm thinking about groups again, with the goal of zero dispersion. I recognize now that not thinking about group size has precluded me from realizing the best scores. Certainly with the development of picture and motor memory skills, which inspire smaller groups, the target effectively becomes bigger.

 

[gvanhyning]

Re: What is the best way to measure accuracy/marksman

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rideHPD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I forgot to mention that I am assuming the shooter is placing their groups relatively in the same position, on target. For instance shooting four .2 MOA groups at 100yrds is worthless if they are landing 2 inches away from the bull, each in different directions. In the world of laboratory science we call that precisely trash. You have to be able to repeat those same target pictures group to group to be a good marksman and hit targets well down range, not just do the same thing 5 times quickly over a mound of sand; that demonstrates the rifle's capability from my understanding. </div></div>Hitting 2 inches off the POA does serve a purpose. If you want to maintain the smallest point of aim then it's not wise to start putting holes in it. Here's my point, if the first POI is the POA, great. Subsequent shots may not and probably won't hit the same POI as the previous shot so your POA ends up becoming larger. When the POA becomes larger then the POI group will usually get larger too.

 

[rideHPD]

Re: What is the best way to measure accuracy/marksman

I agree with that whole-heartedly, I meant that one gets behind the rifle and drives a one-hole group 2" away from the bull at 7 o'clock, gets up, then gets back behind the rifle and drives another tiny group but 1" away from the bull at 3:30, where the POA for both is the very center of the bull. I guess now after trying the Dot Drill that you ought to test your self not only doing groups but being able to reset your position in-between shots and still hold what would be a tiny group right on the POA, which is pretty much what I was referring to, where said shooter looks to perform poorly as their inconsistent POA/POI discrepancy is quite large. Then again I am just starting to practice all this and my experience tapers off past 100yrds and is capped at 300yrds for all intensive purposes, which is were I'm starting out; learning the basics at 100yrds then seeing if I'm actually learning anything by putting it on paper at 300yrds.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: What is the best way to measure accuracy/marksman

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gvanhyning</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rideHPD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I forgot to mention that I am assuming the shooter is placing their groups relatively in the same position, on target. For instance shooting four .2 MOA groups at 100yrds is worthless if they are landing 2 inches away from the bull, each in different directions. In the world of laboratory science we call that precisely trash. You have to be able to repeat those same target pictures group to group to be a good marksman and hit targets well down range, not just do the same thing 5 times quickly over a mound of sand; that demonstrates the rifle's capability from my understanding. </div></div>Hitting 2 inches off the POA does serve a purpose. If you want to maintain the smallest point of aim then it's not wise to start putting holes in it. Here's my point, if the first POI is the POA, great. Subsequent shots may not and probably won't hit the same POI as the previous shot so your POA ends up becoming larger. When the POA becomes larger then the POI group will usually get larger too.</div></div>

In many scenarios, good shooting is about a sight/target relationship developed from picture memory. Center of mass, 6 o'clock, flat tire, and line of white are examples of picture memory holds for a post sight, each proven to be effective for enhancing outcomes in particular environments. And, although an offset sight adjustment has a few obvious applications which support good results when using a scope, a novice shooter, who thinks good shooting is nothing more than maintaining a sight/target relationship, will be deceived by this, or any other sight picture, since it alone does not assure recognition for where the barrel will be pointed as the bullet clears the muzzle. These shooters need to know in fact that hold is the least of what's actually important to good shooting; and, what's really important is consistent sight alignment (with scope that's the relationship between the eyeball and eyepiece), and smooth trigger control. With this basis of understanding, these shooters can place emphasis on motor memory development, from which they will see real progress.

 

[rideHPD]

Re: What is the best way to measure accuracy/marksman

I hear you on that; how do best you go about training yourself into the correct position consistently to build up muscle memory? Dry firing with a checklist to all the parts that need to be done sequentially to build the position? What kind of tolerances are there to building a consistent shooting position (say, prone supported) that need to be met before continuing to build the position? It'd be my guess that pushing the limit of that tolerance to zero would be the true test of marksmanship for a given position, and that we see the results on paper. Less a guess than a rational deduction I suppose.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: What is the best way to measure accuracy/marksman

Here's the catch, a correct position may be unnatural for the beginning shooter; and, thus, the shooter does not get too far with self training. What this shooter needs is a highly qualified mentor or coach who can observe the shooter's position and correct it. Thing is, some folks who have the interest in becoming extraordinary, for one reason or another, do not have access to a coach. These folks will of course do the best they can; but, starting out with nothing more than what they've gleaned from mythology, it would be unrealistic to believe that these shooters will ever get much beyond mediocre.

 

[rideHPD]

Re: What is the best way to measure accuracy/marksman

So I take it you can only go so far towards testing yourself by reading groups and that it takes someone else to see you physically cannot while behind the rifle; makes perfect sense. I have been planning on taking an RO c

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: What is the best way to measure accuracy/marksman

The coach, observing the shooter's position, can discern the source/s of probable errors related to the five factors of a steady position. The shooter can analize error too, but this sort of analysis also requires some how-to-do-it instruction from a highly qualified coach/mentor.

 

[perkantino]

Re: What is the best way to measure accuracy/marksman

Considering the gun groups consistently with given ammo.
Immobilize the gun (vise, bench), pull the trigger. Pull three groups. This would be considered the gun's capacity in accuracy.
Now shoulder the weapon and do the same. If you pull the same group distance, you performed flawless shooting. The difference however would be what your accuracy index would be.

 

[rideHPD]

Re: What is the best way to measure accuracy/marksman

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The coach, observing the shooter's position, can discern the source/s of probable errors related to the five factors of a steady position. The shooter can analize error too, but this sort of analysis also requires some how-to-do-it instruction from a highly qualified coach/mentor. </div></div>
Yeah I didn't see that I was cut off before I could say I am only waiting until I have the time to enroll in a course (and possibly find someone to help guide me near where I shoot), and was just trying to diagnose what I could before hand to start developing a good rifle fit. I just didn't want to come off as if I were discounting your advice, which I am very grateful for from someone with your experience.

 

[rickp]

Re: What is the best way to measure accuracy/marksman

Accuracy is hitting the target and achieving the desired effect, no matter what the target is.

R.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: What is the best way to measure accuracy/marksman

Remember, accuracy is relative. In given conditions, a few or more shooters will get different outcomes; therefore, competitions are often used as devices to measure skill.