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Advanced Marksmanship What is the best zero
- Thread starter 308sako
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Re: What is the best zero
Yes
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308sako</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Being a relative newcomer to the wide open spaces of the west I am curious if the 100 yard zero that I have used for so long back east is the best practical point to work from.
I do use the dials so it is somewhat arbitrary, but is there an advantage to one basic site setting for the long gun?</div></div>
Yes
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308sako</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Being a relative newcomer to the wide open spaces of the west I am curious if the 100 yard zero that I have used for so long back east is the best practical point to work from.
I do use the dials so it is somewhat arbitrary, but is there an advantage to one basic site setting for the long gun?</div></div>
Re: What is the best zero
I'd do what I'm used to, cause it's what you know. If your hunting range the target dial in the dope. If you are still hunting and think the game is going to come out at 300y then go ahead and have it dialed in if you like. Just don't forget where you are at on the scope.
I'd do what I'm used to, cause it's what you know. If your hunting range the target dial in the dope. If you are still hunting and think the game is going to come out at 300y then go ahead and have it dialed in if you like. Just don't forget where you are at on the scope.
G
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Re: What is the best zero
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308sako</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Being a relative newcomer to the wide open spaces of the west I am curious if the 100 yard zero that I have used for so long back east is the best practical point to work from.
I do use the dials so it is somewhat arbitrary, but is there an advantage to one basic site setting for the long gun? </div></div>
When I first started shooting as a kid it was irons with hold over/under. Then uncle taught me the same, but to a finer/faster form.
Later in life I progressed to quality glass with a retical that allowed ranging with hold over/under. For years I dialed everything and was told that was the best way,...now I find its much quicker to range, hold an shoot. Guess it all depends on your target requirements, more than anything else. If your looking for wallet groups, dialing is best. For other things where center mass works an time is not your friend, put on a good A/O zero an learn your dope from there.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308sako</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Being a relative newcomer to the wide open spaces of the west I am curious if the 100 yard zero that I have used for so long back east is the best practical point to work from.
I do use the dials so it is somewhat arbitrary, but is there an advantage to one basic site setting for the long gun? </div></div>
When I first started shooting as a kid it was irons with hold over/under. Then uncle taught me the same, but to a finer/faster form.
Later in life I progressed to quality glass with a retical that allowed ranging with hold over/under. For years I dialed everything and was told that was the best way,...now I find its much quicker to range, hold an shoot. Guess it all depends on your target requirements, more than anything else. If your looking for wallet groups, dialing is best. For other things where center mass works an time is not your friend, put on a good A/O zero an learn your dope from there.
Re: What is the best zero
i like to use the 100 yards as it seems the basis (starting point)for alot of data, if game pops up in close by surprise, you are pretty much set from the get go. with game out further you have more time to dial up.
however, if you are target shooting mostly at, say 300, 500, etc. or you plan on doing most of your hunting at around that range, why not go with with a zero that mimics where most of your shooting is going to be?
i would have to believe that your best zero is going to be at the distance you most frequently shoot at.
i like to use the 100 yards as it seems the basis (starting point)for alot of data, if game pops up in close by surprise, you are pretty much set from the get go. with game out further you have more time to dial up.
however, if you are target shooting mostly at, say 300, 500, etc. or you plan on doing most of your hunting at around that range, why not go with with a zero that mimics where most of your shooting is going to be?
i would have to believe that your best zero is going to be at the distance you most frequently shoot at.
Re: What is the best zero
I think the answer can be somewhat caliber/weight dependent. I shoot .338 LM and just came off a bout of trying to get 225 gr. Barnes XlC's to behave at 100. After 200 rounds (assuming the problem was me), I still was unable to get the groups I was looking for. A friend of mine shoots comp 6ppc and he said that lighter weight bullets in heavy calibers sometimes don't stabilize until 300 due to yaw. I don't know if that is the case with these Barnes are maybe they are just POS's. I just went out with some 250 gr. SMK and started getting great groups at the bottom end of my test loads. The SMK's even look cooler, but I digress.
I don't know the stability data on .308 but it is something to consider at 100 yrds.
My personal goal is to get a good OCW load at 100 and then let it out at 100 yard intervals and see how it behaves at each distance.
Just a thought.
I think the answer can be somewhat caliber/weight dependent. I shoot .338 LM and just came off a bout of trying to get 225 gr. Barnes XlC's to behave at 100. After 200 rounds (assuming the problem was me), I still was unable to get the groups I was looking for. A friend of mine shoots comp 6ppc and he said that lighter weight bullets in heavy calibers sometimes don't stabilize until 300 due to yaw. I don't know if that is the case with these Barnes are maybe they are just POS's. I just went out with some 250 gr. SMK and started getting great groups at the bottom end of my test loads. The SMK's even look cooler, but I digress.
I don't know the stability data on .308 but it is something to consider at 100 yrds.
My personal goal is to get a good OCW load at 100 and then let it out at 100 yard intervals and see how it behaves at each distance.
Just a thought.
Re: What is the best zero
It depends on where your targets will be. If you never shoot anything closer than 600 yards, then a 600-yard zero would be better than a 100-yard zero. Most of my shooting is between 100 and 300 yards, so a 100-yard zero makes good sense.
It depends on where your targets will be. If you never shoot anything closer than 600 yards, then a 600-yard zero would be better than a 100-yard zero. Most of my shooting is between 100 and 300 yards, so a 100-yard zero makes good sense.
Re: What is the best zero
I have used 300 yds forever in that the initial rise and drop to there is very managable then when shooting 600 just dial up ?
Bill
I have used 300 yds forever in that the initial rise and drop to there is very managable then when shooting 600 just dial up ?
Bill
Re: What is the best zero
As alluded to earlier, the best zero is one which will assure, when the sight is properly adjusted, bullets hit where aimed. For some scenerios, a battle sight zero, along with bullet drop compensating capability is appropriate. One thing is for sure: the shooter must understand external ballistics/trajectory to be able to adjust the sight or hold over necessary to hit the KD or UKD target as may be presented to the shooter.
As alluded to earlier, the best zero is one which will assure, when the sight is properly adjusted, bullets hit where aimed. For some scenerios, a battle sight zero, along with bullet drop compensating capability is appropriate. One thing is for sure: the shooter must understand external ballistics/trajectory to be able to adjust the sight or hold over necessary to hit the KD or UKD target as may be presented to the shooter.
Re: What is the best zero
Discussion.
Although MBPR Zero is a concept I believe has strong validity; I tend to sight my rifles at 100yd, and my slug guns/pistol caliber carbine at about 70yd. For my locale, the MBPR zero is simply not practical; there are next to no distances long enough to warrant using it.
Greg
Discussion.
Although MBPR Zero is a concept I believe has strong validity; I tend to sight my rifles at 100yd, and my slug guns/pistol caliber carbine at about 70yd. For my locale, the MBPR zero is simply not practical; there are next to no distances long enough to warrant using it.
Greg
Re: What is the best zero
I have lived "out west" my entire life and I have always zero'ed my guns in at 200 yards. The reason for this is very simple from a HUNTING perspective (dont hang me tactical gurus!), I know that my bullet will impact within a couple inches anywhere from 50 yards out to 250-300 yards (depending on caliber) This allows me to jump game at my most common ranges (50-300 yards) and take the shot without holding over/under or dialing in clicks.
Now, of course, you have to know your rifle inside and out, you have to know your round's flight path from 0-300+. you have to know how high/low your round will impact at 25yds, 50, 75, ect. and you have to know how fast its going to drop out past 200 in order for this to work. For me, I know that Im about an inch low at 25, dead on at 60, inch high at 100, 2 inches low at 250 and (if need be) 6 inches low at 300.
The point of all this being that I can bust a deer and "hold on hair" out to 300 yards with no corrections necessary. Hold and shoot. Now before all the hardcore tactical guys start shouting, I know my clicks out to 700 yards (not that I ever plan to shoot that far, but who knows?)and *I* figure that if I am going to be shooting out beyond 300 yards I will have the time to dial in.
I hope I havent hopelessly overcomplicated a pretty simple concept. Zero in at 200 and youll be able to hit most things out to 300 without corrections. Know your clicks, use them every chance you get, shoot strait, kill clean.
I have lived "out west" my entire life and I have always zero'ed my guns in at 200 yards. The reason for this is very simple from a HUNTING perspective (dont hang me tactical gurus!), I know that my bullet will impact within a couple inches anywhere from 50 yards out to 250-300 yards (depending on caliber) This allows me to jump game at my most common ranges (50-300 yards) and take the shot without holding over/under or dialing in clicks.
Now, of course, you have to know your rifle inside and out, you have to know your round's flight path from 0-300+. you have to know how high/low your round will impact at 25yds, 50, 75, ect. and you have to know how fast its going to drop out past 200 in order for this to work. For me, I know that Im about an inch low at 25, dead on at 60, inch high at 100, 2 inches low at 250 and (if need be) 6 inches low at 300.
The point of all this being that I can bust a deer and "hold on hair" out to 300 yards with no corrections necessary. Hold and shoot. Now before all the hardcore tactical guys start shouting, I know my clicks out to 700 yards (not that I ever plan to shoot that far, but who knows?)and *I* figure that if I am going to be shooting out beyond 300 yards I will have the time to dial in.
I hope I havent hopelessly overcomplicated a pretty simple concept. Zero in at 200 and youll be able to hit most things out to 300 without corrections. Know your clicks, use them every chance you get, shoot strait, kill clean.
Re: What is the best zero
My precision rifles are all zeroed at 100 yards. This way it's all holdovers (even at 25 yards).
My M4 is zeroed at 50/200. With this zero it's "center mass and press" for anything within a legally justifiable engagement range for that weapon. If I for some ungodly reason MUST take a shot at 300 I can hold high and gass on.
With appropriate elevation travel I don't see much of a benefit to zeroing at any other range. For rapid target engagement I don't generally dial. I just hold and fire. For targets that won't be changing range I like to dial because then I can use the horizontal scale more easily if they start to move laterally. I don't like to hold in space. It's nowhere near as accurate as holding on a line.
My precision rifles are all zeroed at 100 yards. This way it's all holdovers (even at 25 yards).
My M4 is zeroed at 50/200. With this zero it's "center mass and press" for anything within a legally justifiable engagement range for that weapon. If I for some ungodly reason MUST take a shot at 300 I can hold high and gass on.
With appropriate elevation travel I don't see much of a benefit to zeroing at any other range. For rapid target engagement I don't generally dial. I just hold and fire. For targets that won't be changing range I like to dial because then I can use the horizontal scale more easily if they start to move laterally. I don't like to hold in space. It's nowhere near as accurate as holding on a line.
Re: What is the best zero
I use the JBM/Pejsa ballistic spreadsheets, which have a printable stock table feature. Once my rifles are sighted in, I do the math for the zero distance, scope height, velocity, BC, and altitide, and print off a stock table that gets taped to the left side of the stock beneath the scope. My scopes for distance rifles (i.e. not slug guns or pistol caliber carbine) usually have MilDot reticles. Honestly, I'm not any great shakes at MilDot ranging yet, but at least the means are in place.
Greg
I use the JBM/Pejsa ballistic spreadsheets, which have a printable stock table feature. Once my rifles are sighted in, I do the math for the zero distance, scope height, velocity, BC, and altitide, and print off a stock table that gets taped to the left side of the stock beneath the scope. My scopes for distance rifles (i.e. not slug guns or pistol caliber carbine) usually have MilDot reticles. Honestly, I'm not any great shakes at MilDot ranging yet, but at least the means are in place.
Greg
Re: What is the best zero
max point blank range zero then know the holds or clicks for beyond that. seems like a no brainer
max point blank range zero then know the holds or clicks for beyond that. seems like a no brainer
Re: What is the best zero
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marduk185</div><div class="ubbcode-body">max point blank range zero then know the holds or clicks for beyond that. seems like a no brainer</div></div>
It is a no-brainer, illustrating that executing the firing task is not the equivilant of actually knowing how to shoot. However, I'm glad for the question, as it shows a brain that's at least curious.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marduk185</div><div class="ubbcode-body">max point blank range zero then know the holds or clicks for beyond that. seems like a no brainer</div></div>
It is a no-brainer, illustrating that executing the firing task is not the equivilant of actually knowing how to shoot. However, I'm glad for the question, as it shows a brain that's at least curious.
Re: What is the best zero
This post is a great example of employing a "two gun" approach:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My precision rifles are all zeroed at 100 yards. This way it's all holdovers (even at 25 yards).
My M4 is zeroed at 50/200. With this zero it's "center mass and press" for anything within a legally justifiable engagement range for that weapon. If I for some ungodly reason MUST take a shot at 300 I can hold high and gass on.
With appropriate elevation travel I don't see much of a benefit to zeroing at any other range. For rapid target engagement I don't generally dial. I just hold and fire. For targets that won't be changing range I like to dial because then I can use the horizontal scale more easily if they start to move laterally. I don't like to hold in space. It's nowhere near as accurate as holding on a line. </div></div>
Dave Lauck in his book, "The Tactical Marksman" covers the concepts of Point Blank Zero vs. Specific Range Zero. It's a good read and should be in your library.
To coin the old phrase, "To the man with just a hammer in his tool box, every problem resembles a nail." In this game, specific tools make more sense. However, if your weapon is going to serve as a hunting rifle with ranges from 25 yards to max. effective, then you may have to employ a hybrid of both concepts.
Just my .002
This post is a great example of employing a "two gun" approach:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My precision rifles are all zeroed at 100 yards. This way it's all holdovers (even at 25 yards).
My M4 is zeroed at 50/200. With this zero it's "center mass and press" for anything within a legally justifiable engagement range for that weapon. If I for some ungodly reason MUST take a shot at 300 I can hold high and gass on.
With appropriate elevation travel I don't see much of a benefit to zeroing at any other range. For rapid target engagement I don't generally dial. I just hold and fire. For targets that won't be changing range I like to dial because then I can use the horizontal scale more easily if they start to move laterally. I don't like to hold in space. It's nowhere near as accurate as holding on a line. </div></div>
Dave Lauck in his book, "The Tactical Marksman" covers the concepts of Point Blank Zero vs. Specific Range Zero. It's a good read and should be in your library.
To coin the old phrase, "To the man with just a hammer in his tool box, every problem resembles a nail." In this game, specific tools make more sense. However, if your weapon is going to serve as a hunting rifle with ranges from 25 yards to max. effective, then you may have to employ a hybrid of both concepts.
Just my .002
Re: What is the best zero
the nightforce ballistics program has a feature for point blank shooting, it tells you where to zero your rifle depending on the size target you want to hit, and the ranges you can hit it by pointing and shooting, either high or low
the nightforce ballistics program has a feature for point blank shooting, it tells you where to zero your rifle depending on the size target you want to hit, and the ranges you can hit it by pointing and shooting, either high or low
Re: What is the best zero
With a hundred-yard zero on my .308, I can hit targets to beyond 600 yards just using holdovers on the mildot reticle in my scope, which has 5 mils of marks below the main crosshairs. No dialing.
If I want to shoot farther than that, I'll probably have time to dial it.
With a hundred-yard zero on my .308, I can hit targets to beyond 600 yards just using holdovers on the mildot reticle in my scope, which has 5 mils of marks below the main crosshairs. No dialing.
If I want to shoot farther than that, I'll probably have time to dial it.
Re: What is the best zero
Most common aka average range you shoot your game at is what i go for...seems like a logical place to start. I think it really depends on your AO. I mean...somebody hunting back east is probably using a tree stand to hunt which is probably a max of 100yds where as your western hunter is most likely spotting and shooting game at a much longer distance. Completely dependent on your AO and quarry. Use whats practical.
Most common aka average range you shoot your game at is what i go for...seems like a logical place to start. I think it really depends on your AO. I mean...somebody hunting back east is probably using a tree stand to hunt which is probably a max of 100yds where as your western hunter is most likely spotting and shooting game at a much longer distance. Completely dependent on your AO and quarry. Use whats practical.
Re: What is the best zero
I like the 100 yard zero but there is not much difference between the 100 and 200 yard zero. I would base my zero on the distance and area most commonly shooting. That would be my 2 cents
I like the 100 yard zero but there is not much difference between the 100 and 200 yard zero. I would base my zero on the distance and area most commonly shooting. That would be my 2 cents
Re: What is the best zero
200yds seems to work for me in a hunting rifle.(varmit)does not require much adj. for the range most shots pop up.
200yds seems to work for me in a hunting rifle.(varmit)does not require much adj. for the range most shots pop up.
Re: What is the best zero
I use 200y for centerfire rifle. Don't see any reason to go shorter if you're goal is a center hit on a man size target. There's more than one way to skin a cat, though. It's up to you to determine the "right" answer.
I use 200y for centerfire rifle. Don't see any reason to go shorter if you're goal is a center hit on a man size target. There's more than one way to skin a cat, though. It's up to you to determine the "right" answer.
Re: What is the best zero
I use a 100yrd zero myself. Like it was said earlier it makes data tables easier to use. But I do zero a few of my ARs with Aimpoints and similar optics at 50yrds so that I can hit at both 50yrds/200yrds. Lots of good info already posted!
I use a 100yrd zero myself. Like it was said earlier it makes data tables easier to use. But I do zero a few of my ARs with Aimpoints and similar optics at 50yrds so that I can hit at both 50yrds/200yrds. Lots of good info already posted!
Re: What is the best zero
I couldnt read everyones post cause I was going nuts, so forgive me if someone else hit this.
This is what I would look at:
Caliber
Combat/Assault
Precision
Range of most desired engagements
How precise you want to be.
I think someone could get ya close with that info.
I couldnt read everyones post cause I was going nuts, so forgive me if someone else hit this.
This is what I would look at:
Caliber
Combat/Assault
Precision
Range of most desired engagements
How precise you want to be.
I think someone could get ya close with that info.
Re: What is the best zero
I would zero at 100 yards like I do all my rifles. Then when I'm ready to hunt/stalk I would turn my turret to my 300 yard zero and leave till I HAD to change it. In reality if your hunting whitetail..mule deer...or elk whatever...you can get within 300 yards no problem, or in a spook situation and you have no time to turn dial it should be within range...normally ...for a quick shot. I use this method hunting coyotes with a .260 and it works great.
Tom
I would zero at 100 yards like I do all my rifles. Then when I'm ready to hunt/stalk I would turn my turret to my 300 yard zero and leave till I HAD to change it. In reality if your hunting whitetail..mule deer...or elk whatever...you can get within 300 yards no problem, or in a spook situation and you have no time to turn dial it should be within range...normally ...for a quick shot. I use this method hunting coyotes with a .260 and it works great.
Tom
Re: What is the best zero
I think it would depend a lot on what scope/reticle and turrets were being used. A hunting scope w/ friction adjustments should be point blank. A mildot scope w/ target turrets could be sighted in at 100 and then dialed in for point blank if that is what the situation warranted and used with mildot holdovers for extended ranges.
I think it would depend a lot on what scope/reticle and turrets were being used. A hunting scope w/ friction adjustments should be point blank. A mildot scope w/ target turrets could be sighted in at 100 and then dialed in for point blank if that is what the situation warranted and used with mildot holdovers for extended ranges.
Re: What is the best zero
In a binary world, it's not one. There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and the rest...
In a binary world, it's not one. There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and the rest...
Re: What is the best zero
I shoot a 7mm rem mag. I zero for 300 yds. 100 is 1.5 inches high, 200 yds is 2.5 high, 300 yds -0-, 400yds -8, 500yds -23.
243 is sighted in for 300yds too. Much easier workload inside of 500yds.
I shoot a 7mm rem mag. I zero for 300 yds. 100 is 1.5 inches high, 200 yds is 2.5 high, 300 yds -0-, 400yds -8, 500yds -23.
243 is sighted in for 300yds too. Much easier workload inside of 500yds.
Re: What is the best zero
I zero the elevation on my .308 at 100 meters and the windage at 50 meters. Any small amount of wind should not be a factor at 50 meters for left and right drift. The direction of the wind can have a small effect on elevation, but at 100 meters, it would be a miniscule amount if any. After all that I just dial for the target's range.
I zero the elevation on my .308 at 100 meters and the windage at 50 meters. Any small amount of wind should not be a factor at 50 meters for left and right drift. The direction of the wind can have a small effect on elevation, but at 100 meters, it would be a miniscule amount if any. After all that I just dial for the target's range.
Re: What is the best zero
All my precision rifles are zeroed for 100yards except my main hunting rifle 300WM, it is zeroed at 200 yrds, if need be I can dial up.
All my precision rifles are zeroed for 100yards except my main hunting rifle 300WM, it is zeroed at 200 yrds, if need be I can dial up.
Re: What is the best zero
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In a binary world, it's not one. There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and the rest... </div></div>
That's kinda like, "There are three kinds of people in the world. Those who are good at math and those who aren't."
I'm in the latter class
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In a binary world, it's not one. There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and the rest... </div></div>
That's kinda like, "There are three kinds of people in the world. Those who are good at math and those who aren't."
I'm in the latter class
Re: What is the best zero
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Luke</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The best zero is the one where you hit what you're aiming at...</div></div>
amen!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Luke</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The best zero is the one where you hit what you're aiming at...</div></div>
amen!
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