Sidearms & Scatterguns What is the Ultimate Combat Pistol? Make your case

NorthernBorn

NorthernBorn

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Minuteman
Dec 3, 2010
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36
Michigan
#1
Over time I have come to enjoy full size pistols and revolvers much more than they're smaller counterparts but we all know that for each job there is always a tool that fits the situation best. There are plenty of threads discussing the qualities of various hunting handguns, pistols for concealed carry, home defense, and many mentions of the "truck" gun.

What I haven't come across on here is a serious, up to date discussion of the various offerings that have made their way onto the battlefield worldwide in both the hands of our own soldiers and special forces and various other highly respectable forces worldwide to include private contractors.

So let's do this for 2012. This site is LOADED with professionals from all over the country and even some stragglers from far away lands overseas who obviously have a lot to add from a different perspective and all opinions are welcome and encouraged as long as they are serious contributions to the knowledge base I hope this thread will build.

That brings us to the hardware. Some criteria has to be set forth in hope of guiding this discussion and to keep it on topic:

Full size only.
Magazine capacity at a minimum of 7+1.
Bombproof reliability.
Accurate.
Minimum caliber of 9mm.
If possible, combat proven and battlefield tested.

Full house customs are most definitely welcome in this discussion as I'm sure there are plenty being used around the world by members of various agencies and organizations.

If you have personal experience with one of these weapons please share your impression of it and how it performed and (as much as possible) what type of environmental conditions both you and the weapon were working in.

Let's keep it civil and professional. This is about the weapons and most certainly not your pride or prejudice against a certain brand or model. With that said, If you have had a bad experience with a pistol that is presented by someone DO SHARE IT. Personal attacks and other petty E-Thugging have no place in this particular thread.


So let's hear it guys. What is, in your experience and opinion, the best combat pistol that has been put to market and you would rely on to perform, no matter the conditions, when your lives depend on it up to this point in the long history of firearms?
 
#3
Re: What is the Ultimate Combat Pistol? Make your case

I'm no combatant but I've logged thousands of rounds on many platforms. I would say the ultimate is whichever quality pistol fits you and you shoot the best. Glock, SF XD/XDM, S&W M&P, and HK are all extremely reliable accurate pistols. Take your pick.
 
#5
Re: What is the Ultimate Combat Pistol? Make your case

No explanation needed


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#6
Re: What is the Ultimate Combat Pistol? Make your case

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ROLEXrifleman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No explanation needed


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</div></div>

^^^^^ YUP ^^^^^ That is all.
 
#7
Re: What is the Ultimate Combat Pistol? Make your case

There are so many weapons that work well and I could trust. but I would say my Mk23 would be the one I would take with me.

FWIW it's also the MOST accurate pistol I have shot.
 
#8
Re: What is the Ultimate Combat Pistol? Make your case

While my HK USP .45 is my favorite gun to shoot, I think the most proven go to combat pistols are the ones beung used right now by the guys actually in combat. The good ol' beretta 9mm pistols the the corps/army uses are old, ugly, heavy, and go bang every time you pull the trigger. I can't tell you how many times we went to shoot those dam things expecting something to go wrong and it just never happened. Its that old smelly flea infested dog that for some unexplainable reason the vet says is healthy as a horse. Love to hate them but they work.
 
#9
Re: What is the Ultimate Combat Pistol? Make your case

It works, crawl around on your hands and kness if paddy silt, shake the big cunks off and let her ripe, she'll not let you down.

USSC%201911%20Slide%202.JPG
 
#10
Re: What is the Ultimate Combat Pistol? Make your case

As much of a 1911 fan as I am I would say the Glock 21.
Firepower
Stopping power
Durable
Reliable
Resistant to elements
Simple and easy to clean
Light (considering what it is)
Consistant trigger pull
Accurate
Fast
Holster availability
Easy to replace parts

If it was a duty weapon, no but "combat" as in could be anywhere then yes. I have given this one a bunch of thought and the Glock 21 is the closest I can get to a combat pistol. Police officers have a different set or worries than a Marine or Soldier. Personally, I like the Gen 4 21. With the 21 SF a close second. Pics coming soon.
 
#11
Re: What is the Ultimate Combat Pistol? Make your case

This is a dumb thread idea.

Serious intelligent answer, here you go.

"Ultimate Combat" and "pistol" are mutually exclusive. Handguns are not first choice tactical tools, they are only chosen after long guns for compromising reasons (size, weight, access, etc)

So there is no Ultimate Combat Pistol, because it is already a second choice to much better suited options.

The Ultimate Combat small arm is already well known by all industry professionals, which is why it is the same basic configuration chosen by all professional armies worldwide:

- Intermediate caliber battle rifle
- Select fire
- Detachable high capacity magazines
- Close-medium range irons & optics
- Indirect fire capability
- Ability to clear malfunctions and strip in immediately in field

The ergonomics of any particular design are fairly irrelevant compared to these criteria. It can be a US M4, Russian AK-12, German G36; all in the proper configuration.



So just for the sake of playing along, the ultimate combat pistol is not a specific design, it is also a set of criteria. The set of criteria is not as well known, as there isn't nearly as much focus on developing the ultimate sidearm as the ultimate long gun.

The criteria for the most tactical advantageous sidearm are:

- Medium-full size platform
- Medium high velocity caliber (9x19 minimum, not ideal)
- Detachable high capacity magazines
- Tritium & enclosed fiber optic iron sights (Truglo TFOs)
- Threaded barrel for suppressor & mount
- Railed frame for flashlight
- Ability to slide lock
- Ability to action lock
- Single action trigger
- Internal/shrouded hammer
- Ability to clear malfunctions and strip in immediately in field

Unfortunately, such an ideal combination of features doesn't currently exist.

-
 
#12
Re: What is the Ultimate Combat Pistol? Make your case

For me I like my 1911 45acp, not stock and not custom but a nice blend. Loose enough to never fail to function but still plenty accurate. Your did say combat pistol so I'd think first consideration it has to function EVERY time, not most of the time. My buddy likes Glocks and from what he says they are nearly indestructible and carry a lot more rounds.

Something I have to depend on in combat situations to save my or someone else's life has to fit the shooter, be absolutely reliable with enough stopping power to do it's job. Buying the most expensive doesn't always mean it's the best for some situations.

Topstrap
 
#15
Re: What is the Ultimate Combat Pistol? Make your case

I love 1911's but if I am going in the shit, I am going for my mark 23

Extremely accurate, extremely reliable, ambi mag release and saftey 12 rounds cap.
A1ADAE0B-E1A1-4732-B031-FD2904BC79D8-2957-00000564B84B25B3.jpg
 
#16
Re: What is the Ultimate Combat Pistol? Make your case

I agree. this would be what I'd take with me.

20120804181507.jpg


now my Glock has proven reliability, but when an accurate shot is required, glock just can't hold up to a Mk23. not to mention, I'd be curious if you can shoot a dud out the barrel with another bullet like the Mk23 does lol.

in all honesty, it's not as heavy as people think. a loaded mk23 actually weights .2 oz less than a loaded alum 1911
smile.gif
 
#20
Re: What is the Ultimate Combat Pistol? Make your case

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: taseal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree. this would be what I'd take with me.


in all honesty, it's not as heavy as people think. a loaded mk23 actually weights .2 oz less than a loaded alum 1911
smile.gif


</div></div>
You may want to recheck that, 39 oz for the "boat anchor" vs 34 oz for an alloy full size 1911 both unloaded. Then you have to consider 4 additional rounds! If the MK23 was that great I am sure the Navy would still be using them; as I am pretty certain they are familiar w/ "combat"!
 
#21
Re: What is the Ultimate Combat Pistol? Make your case

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Turk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: taseal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree. this would be what I'd take with me.


in all honesty, it's not as heavy as people think. a loaded mk23 actually weights .2 oz less than a loaded alum 1911
smile.gif


</div></div>
You may want to recheck that, 39 oz for the "boat anchor" vs 34 oz for an alloy full size 1911 both unloaded. Then you have to consider 4 additional rounds! If the MK23 was that great I am sure the Navy would still be using them; as I am pretty certain they are familiar w/ "combat"! </div></div>

Somehow, this just seems so appropriate in yet another "compare and contrast" thread.

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The Mk 23 <span style="font-style: italic">is</span> a damned boat anchor, and heavier or lighter than the competition, it's unwieldy and balances strangely. You get more, weight and size vs. capacity, from others, like the 226, as was mentioned. Another one that seems to fit the bill is the HK45. I don't know about the 1911 ... sometimes it seems like it's prone to more issues and a harder pistol to maintain under less than ideal conditions.
 
#22
Re: What is the Ultimate Combat Pistol? Make your case

The HK Mark 23 is a very good weapon that you could easily bet your life on, however it is not always a good fit as it's a bit too big for a sidearm and a bit too small for a subgun. It kind of is a sidearm as a primary weapon which doesn't work for most uses these days now that everyone is into their chopped down AR pattern SBR type things.

The HK USP 45 series are good solidly built pistols, but are a bit old in design and lack a bit in ergonomics for people with smaller hands.

The latest HK45 and HK45 compact pistols seem to fit the bill perfectly for those that want a .45 pistol & I would say one of those would be perfect if you want a .45 and can live with 10 or 8 round capacity. Both of them soak up the +P ammo really well.

The HK P30 line is excellent for a 9mm or .40, the only thing it gives up is capacity vs glocks / beretta stuff, as they have 15 rounds for the 9mm and 13 rounds for the .40

Now if a big size was not an issue and you could carry a Mark 23, then why not carry the HK MP7A1 & have it all.
 
#24
Re: What is the Ultimate Combat Pistol? Make your case

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Miles2go</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Kswift...this comes very close to your requirements (might have to bob the hammer). </div></div>

5/11 is a failing score anywhere, except for the extreme "everyone wins and gets a trophy" liberals.
laugh.gif
 
#32
Re: What is the Ultimate Combat Pistol? Make your case

I have to admit. I am seriously disappointed with the responses in this thread so far. There were a couple of good ones (W54/XM-388, redneckbmxer24, Sgt. 0811, KSwift and TopStrap) but it seems that most people replying didn't read my original post starting this thread.

If you aren't willing to present the reasons why you chose a certain pistol in this argument you need to refrain from posting in this thread. Even though KSwift saw some issues with the premise of the argument he responded with exactly what I was looking for. No bull shit, in depth attention to what really matters.

Let's get this thread going. If you bring a specific pistol to this table you need to provide a good list as to why you chose it. If you're not willing to do that... Don't reply.
 
#34
Re: What is the Ultimate Combat Pistol? Make your case

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Mars_05-Rana2-01.jpg


cuz i designed it that way </div></div>
I think this man has ample experience and or knowledge on the MK23, and pretty certain he can afford a few; and you see his choice; and the MK23 is winning?? Yeah ok...!
 
#35
Re: What is the Ultimate Combat Pistol? Make your case

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NorthernBorn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

What I haven't come across on here is a serious, up to date discussion of the various offerings that have made their way onto the <span style="font-weight: bold">battlefield</span> worldwide in both the hands of our own soldiers and special forces and various other highly respectable forces worldwide to include private contractors.

* * *

That brings us to the hardware. Some criteria has to be set forth in hope of guiding this discussion and to keep it on topic:

Full size only.
Magazine capacity at a minimum of 7+1.
Bombproof reliability.
Accurate.
Minimum caliber of 9mm.
If possible, combat proven and battlefield tested.
</div></div>

I think KSwift hit some points that are pretty useful.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KSwift</div><div class="ubbcode-body">cal advantageous sidearm are:

- Medium-full size platform
- Medium high velocity caliber (9x19 minimum, not ideal)
- Detachable high capacity magazines
- Tritium & enclosed fiber optic iron sights (Truglo TFOs)
- Threaded barrel for suppressor & mount
- Railed frame for flashlight
- Ability to slide lock
- Ability to action lock
- Single action trigger
- Internal/shrouded hammer
- Ability to clear malfunctions and strip in immediately in field

</div></div>
Although the real world is full of weapons, the "ultimate combat pistol" has to be something more than a proven design. Pedestrian issues of replacement parts, ammunition re-supply (9mm wins in that scenario), universality of training, a company armorer maybe.

So I vote: M9.

BMT




 
#36
Re: What is the Ultimate Combat Pistol? Make your case

Certainly the 1911 is a proven design and I love my Dan Wesson Valor. However, if push came to shove and I needed to take just 1 into combat, it would be my HK45. 10 Rounds of 45 goodness and a very tough gun.
 
#37
Re: What is the Ultimate Combat Pistol? Make your case

I had no idea the HK 23 was so popular. I may have to check one out. Seems really big to me.

I really like my Springfield .45 TRP 1911 right now and with the McCormick 10 round mags I never feel like I don't have enough ammo.
 
#38
Re: What is the Ultimate Combat Pistol? Make your case

Glock 17, or a tuned 1911, but if you are talking bad breath distance combat make mine a S&W model 10 with a 2" barrel.
 
#39
Re: What is the Ultimate Combat Pistol? Make your case

Any hand gun you can shoot accuratly and on instinct. There is no special combat hand gun. I have seen people with thier combat hand gun empty a 15 round mag, under stress and not hit anything at 10 feet. Look at the police officers that fired 130 rounds at a stopped car and hit less than 40 %, On A CAR. Just get the best one for you.
 
#42
Re: What is the Ultimate Combat Pistol? Make your case

I'm amazed more people haven't mentioned the Sig. Combat Proven: check. Accurate: check. Reliable: double check. Amazing feel fit and finish: check again. I also have my opinion on polymer frame vs. steel. Gotta say for me not a big deal between 9mm and 40, but for a 45. I would prefer the added weight as it also helps control recoil. The specific models I have in mind are the P226 and P220 Elite.
 
#46
Re: What is the Ultimate Combat Pistol? Make your case

Northernborn, I think there might not be specific dialogue because not all of us have battle experience...I don't.
The 8-shot Smith might have it for cool-factor, but it's not actually my choice.
I like my XDM 5.25 in 45. I have 18 round mags that hang out less than 1".
It is accurate: I can hammer an IPSC target offhand at 100y all day.
It is reliable: I've shot a lot of rounds and I don't think I've had a malfunction. It'll shoot 200g swc, 200g rnfp, 230 hard ball equally well.
It shoots well even when really dirty.
I like the fiber optic front sight.
I like the grip safety.
I don't like to say this, but it really is a natural pointer.
I can shoot it almost as fast as my 1911 stock-class IPSC gun. In scenarios over 10 rounds I always have a faster time with the XDM.
Piece of cake to field strip and clean.
It has a rail that I've never attached anything to.
I like the draw, it's fast.
The gun is butt-ugly in my opinion. I absolutely prefer the look and feel of any of my 1911s over this XDM. But I came to the realization that what really matters is not what I like the most, but what I shoot the best.
Of all the way-cooler guns in my safe, this ugly plastic Springfield is hands-down my battle pistol.
 
#47
Re: What is the Ultimate Combat Pistol? Make your case

1911 It's lasted over 100 years now and just won't go away.I think that says it all.The "gun guy" hard use units are still using it in the military and even in some police units
 
#48
Re: What is the Ultimate Combat Pistol? Make your case

Some additional factors you need to consider with this are ease of maintenance and repair. I have a 1911, it's a great gun. However, I'm not a 1911 gunsmith. If a part breaks or wears out I have to have a smith fix it. Good gun, but its complicated and parts are hand fit, not drop in.

Ultimate handgun is also a term you need to reconsider. Military and non military will provide different answers. Military is restricted to ball ammo, civilian and LE can use defense ammo that expands and does a better job.

My recommendation would be for GLOCK, Smith and Wesson M&P, or Springfield Armory XDM. You can adjust grip size so it fits the shooters hand, they are reliable, come with a choice of calibers and sizes, and you can replace parts with a punch and hammer yourself.

My XDM 4.5" in 9mm may be the most accurate pistol I own. With modern defense ammo you are looking at a difference of a tenth or two of an inch with expanded projectiles. I'll take the 9mm with 19 rounds per mag.
 
#49
Re: What is the Ultimate Combat Pistol? Make your case

There is no Ultimate anything, especially a sidearm. Maybe if you did not use the "U" word you may have gotten some different response some of the guys here. I think its kinda played out here.

M9 and the 1911 platforms have proven themselves. But, sit your butt down in the snow with wet, frozen, dirty hands and field strip them with nothing other that a wet corner of your jacket and some breakfree to clean them with and you may personally have another opinion about them. Especially the 1911.

I had a mk23 and I got a great deal on it. It was stable and smooth (for a 45) to shoot. But, it is a boat anchor, heavy, hugh in your hands and you really get the frame size driven home when you holster it up. The rail requires adapters for most lights and its another piece of frail plastic to fail, especially in frozen conditions. Also, I did not like the use of an o-ring either. Its an antiquated design IMO and was just not for me and I unloaded it while it was in sweet condition.

Glocks, XD & XDM's, M&P's are showing themselves to be viable platforms. They have have relilability, simplicity in field maintenance and reasonable accuracy in stock configurations. The one of them that fits your hand may be your "U" word?

Regards,
DS
 
#50
Re: What is the Ultimate Combat Pistol? Make your case

In .45 acp I have an XD, HK USP tactical, 1911 Colt, and a FNP .45 tactical. All are great, but I prefer the FNH FNP. Just my preference because it is very accurate, 16 rounds, and strips easily.
 
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