What Military Sniper Weapon Systems were issued the Schmidt & Bender PMiis???

[Widowmaker0001]

Wondering if you guys know which ones? Looking to build a USMC m40A3 or M40A5 for my step dad a retired USMC WO and was wondering what sniper rifles were issued with a S&B or was it only SOCOM issued item? Btw I was issued and have used a couple M24s in theater from 2001 to 2007 and they always had Leupys on the top. In my first Ranger deployment, 3BN,75th Ranger Regiment, we were inserted with SEAL Team 3 twice in 2003 and also the 10th SF group in the end of 03 and they all had NF's and S&Bs but I personally didnt know much about them, and honestly at the time didnt care to ask, which i should have looking back at it...honestly never thought of comparing gear until I was retired. Thanks

BTW: I researched and the answers were mixed, looking for a more concrete set of answers...

-Reagan

 

[Cote0321]

A5's and now A6's are all issued with schmidts.

I'm pretty sure all the A3's were too.I know the ones i've seen did, but cannot confirm from their inception, before my time.

 

[M8541Reaper]

In 2006, I had an M40A3 (hinged floorplate/no rail), MK11, and SASR that all had the 8541SSDS (DT PMII) optics. I forget when we transitioned from the original turrets to the MTC style, but I remember a few of our rifles getting them.

 

[pmclaine]

Early A3s had Unertl MSTs mounted on a rail using Badger rings with a reducing insert. First ones probably just mounted the Unertl mount/scope complete.

Later they mounted the 3-15X 8541 marked PMIIs on a rail in Badger rings.

There is a picture or two out there of an A5 wearing a Premier 3-15 8541 scope.

Finding the 8541 marked scopes will be expensive and a needle in a haystack.

I think Euro Optic can order, or has available 3-15 PMIIs that are pretty much clones of the USMC scopes.

 

[Cote0321]

Early A3s had Unertl MSTs mounted on a rail using Badger rings with a reducing insert.

Later they mounted the 3-15X 8541 marked PMIIs.

There is a picture or two out there of an A5 wearing a Premier 3-15 8541 scope.

Finding the 8541 marked scopes will be expensive and a needle in a haystack.

I think Euro Optic can order, or has available 3-15 PMIIs that are pretty much clones of the USMC scopes.

Thanks for confirmation on the A3. Knew I wasn’t sure.

PMii’s and premiers get swapped around from gun to gun all the time these days as their age is taking a toll. A lot of dudes just put their atacr on whatever they’re shooting now

 

[M8541Reaper]

Finding the 8541 marked scopes will be expensive and a needle in a haystack.

Yuuuuuuuuup lol

I think Euro Optic can order, or has available 3-15 PMIIs that are pretty much clones of the USMC scopes.

Definitely the cheaper option. EO gets the 3-12 Gen 2 Mil-Dots in every now and then (you can pop your email into the "notify me" box and boom. done). OP's best bet is to just buy one of them and have someone engrave M8541 at the top of the ocular housing (if you really want that extra touch). I'd do that before I ever paid $10k for an actual SSDS.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

Early A3s had Unertl MSTs mounted on a rail using Badger rings with a reducing insert. First ones probably just mounted the Unertl mount/scope complete.

Later they mounted the 3-15X 8541 marked PMIIs on a rail in Badger rings.

There is a picture or two out there of an A5 wearing a Premier 3-15 8541 scope.

Finding the 8541 marked scopes will be expensive and a needle in a haystack.

I think Euro Optic can order, or has available 3-15 PMIIs that are pretty much clones of the USMC scopes.

3-12X M8541, the Premier's are 3-15. The switch to MTC probably happened around 2007 but I believe it took some time before all the units sent in their standard DT scopes for conversion.

 

[pmclaine]

3-12X M8541, the Premier's are 3-15. The switch to MTC probably happened around 2007 but I believe it took some time before all the units sent in their standard DT scopes for conversion.

Yep, my bad.

S&B 3-12X

Premier 3-15X

I have a Premier Single Turn 3-15X o n my most dependable rifle. Absolutely love it. Turrets are truck wheels with nice defined clicks. Parallax always seems to be adjusted - who knows if it even works as its reported to be an issue on these scopes - just always seems to be good. 3-15X is about the perfect magnification range and the size of the scope is not obscene.

I have a schmidt PMII 5-25 that is a beautiful scope but a baseball bat in size. 25X mag is nice but its a crutch. Ill be mounting the 5-25X on my "updated" version of the original M40 Im having LRI put together for me.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

I liked the 3-12X a lot, it had a couple weak points but then again so did the 3-15. It's kinda funny, the other day I saw that one of the SSDS front flip caps was sold for $600, well listed for that much anyway, and I'm like "holy shit, I have one of those on my shelf!" haha.

 

[pmclaine]

SSDS front flip caps was sold for $600, well listed for that much anyway, and I'm like "holy shit, I have one of those on my shelf!" haha.

Give you what you paid for it....

 

[Trigger Monkey]

Yeah nah, that's pretty much the only thing I kept from my Premier days, it's not going anywhere. I'm just amazed that a Butler Creek cap could warrant that much haha.

 

[M8541Reaper]

Yeah nah, that's pretty much the only thing I kept from my Premier days, it's not going anywhere. I'm just amazed that a Butler Creek cap could warrant that much haha.

It blow my mind that someone actually bought that cap. I wonder if he sold his used badger rings for the $200 over the retail price.

 

[Widowmaker0001]

Thanks for the input guys. I have a 5-25×56 PMii im using. Im not trying to make a era specific clone, more like keep things similar. So if all the M40s that got Schmidts were 3-12 then upgraded to 3-15 DT, where does the 5-25×56 get used in SOCOM? I found a article on them winning a 2011 PSR contract with USSOCOM for 34 million?

-Reagan

 

[Random Guy]

Attached first 2 pics are the correct civilian version of the 3-12x S&B scope on the late M40A3, A5s and the A6s. (part # is seen second pic, starting with #644....). Scope has unique counter-clockwise (CCW) turrets. It might be a special order item now, not sure. (~$3300 or 3400 last time I checked a few years ago)
The USMC issued scopes are marked "USMC 8541" on the rear ocular (see pic 4), but are extremely hard to find and very pricey if you can find one.
Also attached are two pics from April 2019 at Quantico, with an M40A6 that is shown w/ the same S&B 3-12x scopes on the remaining 7.62 NATO rifles. (On edit: I'm not sure if the M40A6 brought out to Quantico Range 4 was a clone - or newly made real USMC rifle. My buddy took those pics and sent them to me. I was at the Quantico event on Saturday, but missed Sunday's match when it appeared, but I wanted to show the 'USMC M8541' marking on the rear ocular as an fyi. )

As for SOCOM sniper rifles, they are all built at the Naval Surface Warfare Center/Crane facility, and a variety of day and night vision optics are used on sniper rifles as required by the mission. The larger 5-25x S&B scopes are often seen on the 300 WinMag rifles like the MK 13 Mod 7 (see last pic). I hope that info helps.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

To add some clarification, the actual issued M8541's are also laser engraved with the NSN number and serial number of the optic. I'm not sure what's up with the M40A6 shown in the pics, a clone maybe, but every issued S&B had to have the laser engravings as part of the contract. In 2008, there were some non-issued M8541 configuration scopes that made it out onto the civilian market, these would not have had the laser engravings and would have appeared as above. Suffice it to say that besides different engravings on the ocular there is no difference between a civilian 3-12 PMII with MTC knobs and Gen II reticle and the USMC M8541.

 

[Random Guy]

So if all the M40s that got Schmidts were 3-12 then upgraded to 3-15 DT, where does the 5-25×56 get used in SOCOM?

In addition to the Mk 13 Mod 7s that SOCOM makes with the S&B 5-25x56 scopes, it appears that some SOCOM operators have them mounted on M110 rifles (assuming these pics were DoD sourced/released). That's all I know.

 

[M8541Reaper]

Suffice it to say that besides different engravings on the ocular there is no difference between a civilian 3-12 PMII with MTC knobs and Gen II reticle and the USMC M8541.

Yup.

well, actually the only difference is that weirdos will pay $10k+ for one that’s been abused and has laser engravings on it instead of paying $2500-3000 for a brand new one ?

 

[Skunk]

Not ALL the USMC scopes had the full NSN engraving on them.

 

[Skunk]

I think the full NSN engraving was a Premier-era thing.

That A6 being discussed above could be a real USMC rifle.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

haha I was in the Premier-era.

Edited to add: Now I'm curious when there was a transition from the PR/S&B marked ocular housings with engraving to the standard S&B ocular and if these were scopes that went back to S&B for repair and came back with new ocular housings. I saw a M8541 come in once that had the ocular sheared off and was being held on by 100 mph tape.

 

[Skunk]

Old fart!

 

[Trigger Monkey]

Old fart!

I feel like it, my damn joints ache every day and my 8 yo can kick my ass.

 

[Lowlight]

Both marked correctly, although instead of the NSN on the M8541 I have Sniper's Hide vs the numbers.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

I think Marty got sent one that was engraved Badger Ordinance....oy vey

 

[Skunk]

 

[Widowmaker0001]

Attached first 2 pics are the correct civilian version of the 3-12x S&B scope on the late M40A3, A5s and the A6s. (part # is seen second pic, starting with #644....). Scope has unique counter-clockwise (CCW) turrets. It might be a special order item now, not sure. (~$3300 or 3400 last time I checked a few years ago)
The USMC issued scopes are marked "USMC 8541" on the rear ocular (see pic 4), but are extremely hard to find and very pricey if you can find one.
Also attached are two pics from April 2019 at Quantico, with an M40A6 that is shown w/ the same S&B 3-12x scopes on the remaining 7.62 NATO rifles. (On edit: I'm not sure if the M40A6 brought out to Quantico Range 4 was a clone - or newly made real USMC rifle. My buddy took those pics and sent them to me. I was at the event on Saturday, but missed Sunday's match when it appeared, but I wanted to show the 'USMC M8541' marking on the rear ocular as an fyi. )

As for SOCOM sniper rifles, they are all built at the Naval Surface Warfare Center/Crane facility, and a variety of day and night vision optics are used on sniper rifles as required by the mission. The larger 5-25x S&B scopes are often seen on the 300 WinMag rifles like the MK 13 Mod 7 (see last pic). I hope that info helps.

Appreciate it! That helps alot, confirms what others have said and shows me more of where the PMii's were used. This subject is becoming more interesting as more share insight im learning. Thanks everyone for your insight!

-Reagan

 

[Widowmaker0001]

The turret rotational direction is available from S&B in either Clockwise or CounterClockwise. My PMii is CCW. The most specific difference from the majority of the civilian ones are the NSN codes M8541 markings from what I have collected. Also to add to this thread, I see that the MK 13 rifles, MOD5 had S&B 5-25×56 scopes as an option to the NF scopes until the MOD 7 which only shows the S&B issued to their SWS deployment kits.

-Reagan

 

[Random Guy]

Others will know more, but there are 2 generations of S&B M8541 scopes, distinguished by the markings on ocular and elevation turret. Here’s my understanding:

1st generation has full NSN engraved, serial number and “pop-up” turret to provide tactile feel if the turret has made 1 full revolution. Anecdotally I heard there were some issues with that pop-up turret re reliability. This is the Premier Reticle era.

2nd generation did away with the pop-up turret and the NSN and serial number were omitted and replaced with the current UID tag that can be more easily scanned. I think this was post-Premier Reticle.

I don’t know when this change occurred and others will know more, but that’s all I know.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

Great thread, thanks. Maybe I am misremembering, but don't the turret(s) on the issued USMC S&B issued scopes (or maybe just the Premier made S&B USMC contract scopes) turn in the opposite direction from the civilian S&B scopes, and don't the civilian S&B scope versions have different turrets from the USMC issued scopes (or is that true only as to the Premier made USMC issued scopes, an M82a3 elevation turret)?? Also, RE: the etching on the USMC issued scopes as I recall the Premiers and the S&B scopes had different NSNs on etched View attachment 7305015them (since the Premiers differed from the S&B scopes )???

Ok, kinda hard for me to follow your train of streaming consciousness there but I'll do my best to answer your questions.

As it was mentioned before, S&B's are available in both CW and CCW and what I meant earlier is that if you buy a 3-12 PMII with MTC and Gen II Mildot, the construction is exactly the same as the M8541 minus the markings.

The scope you pictured there is the first generation of the M8541 to be issued with a standard DT turret that came in two BDC versions, one for Mk 211 and one for M118LR. Shortly after that the USMC thought it would be better to have one scope/one knob combination for all rifles and that's how the MTC turret was born and the second generation of the M8541. The MTC had the heavy detent every full mil and a donut that popped up as you went into the second revolution. Now, Premier built the S&B's that went to the USMC , they arrived in pieces and Premier built them up, purged them, tested them, and packaged them for inspection and delivery to MCSC.

When Premier started to provide the Heritage as the M8541a, that would've received a different NSN because it was essentially a different scope and the engraving would've been different.

Now, as to whatever changes or modifications were done to the MTC knobs after 2009 to remove the tactile revolution indicator on the S&B, I don't know, not my bag.

 

[Random Guy]

When Premier started to provide the Heritage as the M8541a, that would've received a different NSN because it was essentially a different scope and the engraving would've been different.

Yep, that is correct, here's what I see in the M40A5 stock list dated 2014, which includes both scopes for use on the M40A5:
S&B 3-12x scope has NSN: 1240-01-533-1854
Premier Heritage 3-15x scope has NSN: 1240-01-586-9839

I think Marty, owner of Badger Ordnance, has a lot of neat tools/collectibles, including this unique scope (apologizes for digressing into Premier Heritage topic).
Note the 'a' suffix on the end of the 8541 on the Premier Heritage scope. The M39 rifle was issued with the S&B 3-12x scopes, and perhaps some Premier Heritage 3-15x were issued on them as well.

 

[Skunk]

 

[FjallJager]

I would bet but it is a guess that there 5000-8000 units in a purchase contract for optics.

 

[j-dubya]

Don’t forget that the actual issue S&B’s also have “Premier Reticles” engraved on the left side of the ocular instead of Schmidt & Bender on both sides like the commercial ones.

 

[Widowmaker0001]

Don’t forget that the actual issue S&B’s also have “Premier Reticles” engraved on the left side of the ocular instead of Schmidt & Bender on both sides like the commercial ones.

If you read the whole thread others have mentioned and shown pics that they didnt all have Premier Reticles on the Side, its said there was a post-Premier Reticles M8541 and thats why Im assuming.

-Reagan

 

[Bluedog82]

@Widowmaker0001 I have a buddy who deployed to Afghanistan in 2010 as a Scout Sniper with Force Recon who I know said that they used S&Bs, I can ask him if he remembers what magnification was on his if you’d like.

 

[Widowmaker0001]

@Widowmaker0001 I have a buddy who deployed to Afghanistan in 2010 as a Scout Sniper with Force Recon who I know said that they used S&Bs, I can ask him if he remembers what magnification was on his if you’d like.

Sure, all the info helps. Appreciate it brother.

-Reagan

 

[Random Guy]

With respect to Force Recon, I think Crane purchased a relatively small number of S&B 4-16x42mm scopes with Horus Vision reticles in the 2006/7 period for SOCOM rifles. These are sometimes seen on M40A3 or MK 11 Mod 0 rifles as used by MARSOC (1st pic), possibly Force Recon (and presumably other SOCOM units that utilize rifles made by Crane for SOCOM use). These 4-16x S&B scopes typically have a two digit number on the left side of the ocular and a UID tag on them. (see 3rd pic).

The 2nd pic shows them on a Mk 11 Mod 0 (or M110 rifle), and a M40A3 rifle with the early US Optics night vision rail. The caption for the 2nd pic reads "Pacific Ocean (Feb. 15, 2007) - Sgt. Eric W. Kasmire of Marine Special Operations Battalion, Alpha Company, from Sacramento, Calif., instructs Staff Sgt. Elijah Fackman on properly lining up a sight on a Marine Sniper Rifle on the flight deck of the amphibious assault ship USS Bonhomme Richard (LHD 6). U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 3rd Class Matthew J. Kuhlman (RELEASED)"

So my observation is the S&B 3-12x are by far the most common, and are the official optic on USMC sniper rifles since the mid-200Xs, the 4-16x are seen on interesting SOCOM sniper rifles from the mid to late 200Xs (all pics appear to be 7.62 NATO caliber), and the big 5-25x S&B scopes are typically seen on the current 300 WinMag rifles. (Correction: I have seen the big 5-25X on some M110 rifles too, as noted on post #16).

 

[cherokeefan03]

The turret rotational direction is available from S&B in either Clockwise or CounterClockwise. My PMii is CCW. The most specific difference from the majority of the civilian ones are the NSN codes M8541 markings from what I have collected. Also to add to this thread, I see that the MK 13 rifles, MOD5 had S&B 5-25×56 scopes as an option to the NF scopes until the MOD 7 which only shows the S&B issued to their SWS deployment kits.

-Reagan

The SB 5-25 PSR Scope was part of the SOCOM PSR program, but due to the ultimate failings of that program, groups like NSW and MARSOC whostill had access to the scope used it on the MK13 Mod 5 and 7 instead of the Remington MSR it was intended with. The Mod 7 was Marine only for a long time as there were issues that prevented NSW from switching from the 5 to the 7 until recently, but the MK13 program itself is due to be replaced by the MK22 ASR. Additionally, SOCOM units often generally have enough leway to use whatever scopes are in the armory on their guns if they feel the need or have to replace a broken optic, which is why you see things like 110s with 5-25s, MK11s with NF NXSs still, and ATACRs on M2010s.
The SB 5-25s will likely float around in armories and be used for many years before they are completely replaced by the NF ATACR for SOCOM or the Leupold MK5 for big army, just as some NF NXS models are still used.

 

[Widowmaker0001]

The SB 5-25 PSR Scope was part of the SOCOM PSR program, but due to the ultimate failings of that program, groups like NSW and MARSOC whostill had access to the scope used it on the MK13 Mod 5 and 7 instead of the Remington MSR it was intended with. The Mod 7 was Marine only for a long time as there were issues that prevented NSW from switching from the 5 to the 7 until recently, but the MK13 program itself is due to be replaced by the MK22 ASR. Additionally, SOCOM units often generally have enough leway to use whatever scopes are in the armory on their guns if they feel the need or have to replace a broken optic, which is why you see things like 110s with 5-25s, MK11s with NF NXSs still, and ATACRs on M2010s.
The SB 5-25s will likely float around in armories and be used for many years before they are completely replaced by the NF ATACR for SOCOM or the Leupold MK5 for big army, just as some NF NXS models are still used.

Thanks for the info, makes alot of sense as to why you would see sof guys with all kinds of nice glass'

-Reagan

 

[USMCsean]

With respect to Force Recon, I think Crane purchased a relatively small number of S&B 4-16x42mm scopes with Horus Vision reticles in the 2006/7 period for SOCOM rifles. These are sometimes seen on M40A3 or MK 11 Mod 0 rifles as used by MARSOC (1st pic), possibly Force Recon (and presumably other SOCOM units that utilize rifles made by Crane for SOCOM use). These 4-16x S&B scopes typically have a two digit number on the left side of the ocular and a UID tag on them. (see 3rd pic).

The 2nd pic shows them on a Mk 11 Mod 0 (or M110 rifle), and a M40A3 rifle with the early US Optics night vision rail. The caption for the 2nd pic reads "Pacific Ocean (Feb. 15, 2007) - Sgt. Eric W. Kasmire of Marine Special Operations Battalion, Alpha Company, from Sacramento, Calif., instructs Staff Sgt. Elijah Fackman on properly lining up a sight on a Marine Sniper Rifle on the flight deck of the amphibious assault ship USS Bonhomme Richard (LHD 6). U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 3rd Class Matthew J. Kuhlman (RELEASED)"

So my observation is the S&B 3-12x are by far the most common, and are the official optic on USMC sniper rifles since the mid-200Xs, the 4-16x are seen on interesting SOCOM sniper rifles from the mid to late 200Xs (all pics appear to be 7.62 NATO caliber), and the big 5-25x S&B scopes are typically seen on the current 300 WinMag rifles. (Correction: I have seen the big 5-25X on some M110 rifles too, as noted on post #16).

That was a testing period, not necessarily actual issue. The USMC went through a period of testing things. As you can see, the mount for the rifles also is different than what was normally issued. They ultimately didn't got with either of those two options shown in the picture. The head placement to look through that scope is ridiculous. This is also what is said by a member here who recently got his put together. Secondly, the guys liked the 4-16 magnification on the PMII, but the turret was a single turn turret that couldn't be used on the .50s, which is what the USMC uppers wanted. They didn't want to have to have a second scope. So that's why they stayed with the 3-12, because it had more adjustments for longer ranges in the second revolution.

 

[Random Guy]

Thanks for that interesting history. I agree they were evaluation scopes, hence the interesting 2 digit number that S&B put on the left side of ocular. (Not sure if 3 digit examples exist as well, as the ones I've seen are two digits). You are also right about the poor positioning with that mount, its just too high. Here's the side shot of that forum member's MARSOC M30A3 w/ 4-16 S&B scope. Its a neat build, but he said the ergonomics are not good with the high set-up...

BTW, my understanding is the SOCOM evaluation S&B 4-16x scopes often had the Horus Vision H37 reticle which has hold overs to 30+ MRAD at medium to lower magnification, and maybe 15 to 20 MRAD at higher magnification, so dialing-in elevation isn't always needed with that reticle, even at at long distances (+1000 meters). Some guys really like them, and some really hate them, but I think that was a unique aspect of those evaluation scopes. https://www.horusvision.com/download/horus_h37_reticle_technical_specs.pdf

Anyhow, as your noted the USMC stuck with the trusty 3-12x S&B scope. At a 1000 yard match I would prefer a little more than 12x magnification when shooting for the x-ring, but its a nice piece of glass.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

Not related to the USMC specifically but elements within SOCOM used a version of the 4-16X42's with locking turrets and 1-4 Short Dots were also used by some units.

 

[Bluedog82]

My Scout/Sniper buddy just confirmed S&B 3-12 on his rifle circa 2010