What MOA dot for target Aquisition on bolt guns?

[T_wag10]

Hey guys,

Reposting this in comp thread as I hope it gets better traction!

Looking to get some feedback from the group running RMR/SRO/Aimpoint/etc on top of 20+ zoom scopes for target acquisition out to 900 yards. Is a more definitive small dot like a 1 moa RMR the way to go? Should an easier to pick up 6.5 MOA RMR be better? something in the middle?

Pictures with feedback is always appreciated. I would be running a Vortex Razor G2 4.5-27 and a Vortex impact 4000. Using a baldknobber diving board mount for the RMR/SRO for reference so i will be using an RMR. see below link and picture.
https://baldknobberarmament.com/34mm-rh-rmr-nf-diving-board-mount/

 

[ToddKS]

I will start by saying I don't think this is the best path. That said, if you are set on doing so, the only one from your list I could recommend is the 2.5MOA SRO. Holosun 507C would be another to consider.

 

[Sheldon N]

Missing option:

No dot, more practice.

 

[Emerson0311]

I use a 2 MOA Amazon special. On the clock it helps. Otherwise, probably no difference.

 

[Rodney65]

I wish this was a common feature on higher magnification scopes.

It's cheap, durable, doesn't need to be turned on, and doesn't need batteries. Would be more than adequate.

 

[Rob01]

I wish this was a common feature on higher magnification scopes. View attachment 8656912
It's cheap, durable, doesn't need to be turned on, and doesn't need batteries. Would be more than adequate.

It is. It’s called the elevation turret. No one seems to use it though and they need to strap not crap on the scope.

 

[bbyars]

It is. It’s called the elevation turret. No one seems to use it though and they need to strap not crap on the scope.

This

 

[Bacarrat]

Why not power down the scope or just run lower magnification?

 

[OREGUN]

What the name of time wasting faff is going on here? No dot. There’s no way it saves time over being well practiced in finding a target by looking over your scope.

 

[Parabellum6]

I use 1 MOA dots on errrrthang, pistols, and offset cqb dots on my gas guns. I dont use RMR's to index targets with my rifles and group think seems to think its dumb. I do however use an RMR thats slaved to the reticle on my mk4 spotter and its really nice for quick reference.

 

[bbyars]

One of these guys has a dot and you can see how useful it is in the video.

 

[OREGUN]

Haha! I opened the video and scrolled randomly into the middle of it and stopped right on Morgun King saying “I don’t use a red dot.” Enough said.

 

[T_wag10]

not to put away anyones opinions as i can totally understand why alot of people may not want an RDS and they are proficient with no assistance. To revise the goal of this thread:
To those who use an RDS for Target acquisition, what MOA size dot are you using and why?
To those who use an RDS for Target acquisition, have you attempted co-witnessing the RDS with a Vortex impact 4k? any significant gains or losses?

 

[usafa77]

How about a impact, RDS, Trigger cam , spirit level, sendit, crushit survey

 

[T_wag10]

How about a impact, RDS, Trigger cam , spirit level, sendit, crushit survey

okay clearly I sound stupid but I thought it would be a good option for targets where you don’t know distance and you want rds for quicker target pickup. The plan is not to just overload the gun with shit that is useless. The only thing that is interesting is if you use the rds as zero for impact and use that as your zero, you would have to dial back to zero to get your dope. Is that incorrect?

 

[OREGUN]

okay clearly I sound stupid but I thought it would be a good option for targets where you don’t know distance and you want rds for quicker target pickup. The plan is not to just overload the gun with shit that is useless. The only thing that is interesting is if you use the rds as zero for impact and use that as your zero, you would have to dial back to zero to get your dope. Is that incorrect?

I’m not following what’s happening here. You are going to compare the difference between your red dot and reticle to find distance?

 

[bbyars]

You set an impact to align with your reticle at zero elevation on scope. Having another optic zeroed at the same point doesn’t really make since for that application unless you plan to see a lot of targets inside 100 yds and your lowest mag is like 7x. Sounds like you’re trying to make a buck up system to an impact. The only other application that make sense is running around with a NV and shooting passively.

 

[T_wag10]

The benefit I see to an rds on top of an optic is below:
1.target acquisition easier with RDS for beginner not great at locating targets prior to being on glass
2. Co-witnessed with wmlrf and optic, rds could be used as baseline for zero which allows shooter to not have to dial back to zero on the optic to laser range and determine dope.

Is there issues with the above logic? Particularly number 2.

 

[bbyars]

The benefit I see to an rds on top of an optic is below:
1.target acquisition easier with RDS for beginner not great at locating targets prior to being on glass
2. Co-witnessed with wmlrf and optic, rds could be used as baseline for zero which allows shooter to not have to dial back to zero on the optic to laser range and determine dope.

Is there issues with the above logic? Particularly number 2.

I guess that would work.At that point I think I’d just opt for Rf binos to keep the rifle more useable. If it’s a feild style match or like a sniper challenge I really don’t see any drawbacks but usually you want to drop weight in that scenario and eliminate as much gear as possible.

 

[Rob01]

1. Practice would do more good for a beginner than strapping more stuff to a rifle. Especially if you will be shoving the rifle through props.

2. No ideas as I don’t use a rifle mounted LRF.

 

[Emerson0311]

I use a 2 MOA red dot on my Rimfire. I find it helps quite a bit. I use my left eye for the dot and right for the scope. My level is also on the left, although with both eyes open I “see” it in the lower left quadrant of my scope reticle. FOV at higher magnification is limiting on small targets. Factor in 700yds of open featureless field with 1-2MOA targets and it works. For $60, it adds points to my finishes. I hope my competitors think it’s dumb though.

 

[Sheldon N]

FOV at higher magnification is limiting on small targets. Factor in 700yds of open featureless field with 1-2MOA targets and it works.

Whether it works isn't the debate, I agree if you use the red dot to align gun to target then hold the gun still and get on scope it can help limit the "searching through a straw" problem of finding a target in a featureless background.

The real question is whether it's the goal state and if it's the best way to save time on a stage. The answer IMO is no. The goal is to perfect your index and rifle pointing so that you can look naked eye, align your rifle + body position, and as you drop into NPA position and look through the scope you are already looking at the target. It's more than just using the turret to align the gun, or sighting down the barrel as you put the gun on the bag. It's having the muscle memory for aiming the whole rifle + body + NPA system all at once.

I'm not saying it's easy, but with practice you should be able to put the scope on 25x and from any height barricade position be able to drop into position behind the gun and land on target. If you get good at that, you will be significantly ahead of someone using a red dot to align the gun.

 

[Emerson0311]

Whether it works isn't the debate, I agree if you use the red dot to align gun to target then hold the gun still and get on scope it can help limit the "searching through a straw" problem of finding a target in a featureless background.

The real question is whether it's the goal state and if it's the best way to save time on a stage. The answer IMO is no. The goal is to perfect your index and rifle pointing so that you can look naked eye, align your rifle + body position, and as you drop into NPA position and look through the scope you are already looking at the target. It's more than just using the turret to align the gun, or sighting down the barrel as you put the gun on the bag. It's having the muscle memory for aiming the whole rifle + body + NPA system all at once.

I'm not saying it's easy, but with practice you should be able to put the scope on 25x and from any height barricade position be able to drop into position behind the gun and land on target. If you get good at that, you will be significantly ahead of someone using a red dot to align the gun.

Sure. If I was a bit more practiced at everything I would also beat all the other shooters with a 10# hunting rifle. If I had better recoil control I could shoot PRS and win with a 7MM. Let’s not even get into iron sites vs the new fangled optics.
There may come a time when a red dot slows me down at matches. Maybe when my optic is a lot more expensive and capable? Considering my age, limited time and $$$ resources, and general mediocre talent, I will probably die before that happens. There are a plethora of other shooting shortcomings that handicap me more than my use of a red dot right now. I spend my time in them first. When that changes, the red dot will go.

 

[usafa77]

1. Is false. You first have to find the target with your eyeball. Having a RDS doesn't help you do that. 1. Find it. 2. Create a target reference point. 3. Point your gun at the target reference point. 4. Look inside your scope. Your target will be there (could require up or down movement but not side to side.)

 

[ToddKS]

1. If you have ever watched a less proficient pistol shooter try to find their dot, you will understand that that this is simply another layer of complication. It is also to an extent obstruction the shooters sight line to the target. The base of the sight blocks the view immediately above the elevation turret. The shooter also still has to be able to visually acquire the target or target area to put the dot on it.

 

[Qpski]

I prefer a 2MOA for everything.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

You should read every world Sheldon wrote about 5 times and let it sink in.

 

[Emerson0311]

You should read every world Sheldon wrote about 5 times and let it sink in.

Like I said, I don’t think he is incorrect about the “better way”. There are a lot of better ways for me to do things. I will keep working on them, attempting to correct the most troublesome. I expect that as I practice lining up I will use the red dot reference less and less. Yup, it’s a crutch, just like most of the accessories that are on match rifles. I am not unpracticed, but the US match winning crew will never have to worry about my competitiveness.

 

[Emerson0311]

1. Is false. You first have to find the target with your eyeball. Having a RDS doesn't help you do that. 1. Find it. 2. Create a target reference point. 3. Point your gun at the target reference point. 4. Look inside your scope. Your target will be there (could require up or down movement but not side to side.)

Hundreds of yards of stubble. A 2”+ yellowish target. Yup, with practice it can be done quickly at high mag without an external reference. The red dot is my reference point now. I use my left eye. Right eye is almost square behind the optic at the same time. At some point the dot will become unnecessary. Maybe soon.

 

[Emerson0311]

1. If you have ever watched a less proficient pistol shooter try to find their dot, you will understand that that this is simply another layer of complication. It is also to an extent obstruction the shooters sight line to the target. The base of the sight blocks the view immediately above the elevation turret. The shooter also still has to be able to visually acquire the target or target area to put the dot on it.

It’s on the left.

 

[Emerson0311]

Whether it works isn't the debate, I agree if you use the red dot to align gun to target then hold the gun still and get on scope it can help limit the "searching through a straw" problem of finding a target in a featureless background.

The real question is whether it's the goal state and if it's the best way to save time on a stage. The answer IMO is no. The goal is to perfect your index and rifle pointing so that you can look naked eye, align your rifle + body position, and as you drop into NPA position and look through the scope you are already looking at the target. It's more than just using the turret to align the gun, or sighting down the barrel as you put the gun on the bag. It's having the muscle memory for aiming the whole rifle + body + NPA system all at once.

I'm not saying it's easy, but with practice you should be able to put the scope on 25x and from any height barricade position be able to drop into position behind the gun and land on target. If you get good at that, you will be significantly ahead of someone using a red dot to align the gun.

You make sense. I hope to perfect my pointing the optic and achieving NPA with the target in view, just like I shoot with both eyes open now, after a season sending over 20K downrange. It looks simple when a guy is good at it.