What round for training cartridge?

[TexasTightwad]

I am putting together a Nucleus with Barloc, and am considering doing a switch-barrel set-up for training. Any suggestions on which cartridge? For competition I will be using 6.5 Creedmoor handloads, and the training rounds would probably be handloads too. I know a lot of people use .223, but I figured I'd see if there was anything better. I'm looking for low cost per round, long barrel life (because that's part of cost per round), and something that is reasonable to use for distances 1100 yards or less.

 

[Jeffd]

223

 

[Bravo6niner]

I’ve had good luck with 6br shooting 95smk’s and some blc2. Load them up pretty quickly on the Dillon 650 and plenty accurate for barricade training and other positional practice. You don’t need another bolt head either that way.

 

[Kadams1563]

If I could do mybrifle over again I would have built a .223 instead of my 6.5 creed.

.223 ain’t a slouch.

 

[JamieD]

.223 all the way...

We have used them for our shooting school to 1000 yards for a decade. They will get there, just don't hit real hard. An absolute blast to shoot and train with. We reload the 75 amax and now the ELD's with varget.

Good luck and make sure you get the right twist to shoot the heavy bullets.

JamieD
Wolf Precision, Inc.
www.wolfprecision.net

 

[BlackFenix]

I was thinking of a trainer as cheaper ammo. 223 seems about as cheap as you can make in bulk. Is there any advantage for it to be 223 AI?

Also when I priced making match quality ammo out of 223. I wasn't seeing a huge saving so what is others thinking... I am currently leaning towards a 22 lr for the trainer but it doesn't maximize a barloc setup.

 

[Kadams1563]

Just save money and get a .22 built from Vudoo.

Just remember .22 is much cheaper... lol

 

[Dai Bando]

.223, .223AI and 6br are hard to argue with.

My next bbl for the TL3 is a 7 twist 22 br that I'm hoping will sling 88 eld's at 2,950 or so.

 

[Sheldon N]

223 is going to be your cheapest option for a centerfire trainer that can still shoot at distance. The absolute lowest you're going to get the cost/shot down to (including barrel life costs) is about $0.30/round. That's bulk discounts on bullets, cheap brass, prefit barrels, and long barrel life predictions. A 6BR is probably not going to be much less than $0.50/round even at the cheapest.

I think given the choice between 223 and 22LR I would probably still shoot 223, it helps practice the noise/recoil experience of shooting your match gun. 22LR almost feels like dry fire practice.

 

[Dai Bando]

Hornady 105 hpbt run about $20 per 100....

 

[TexasTightwad]

Just save money and get a .22 built from Vudoo.

Just remember .22 is much cheaper... lol

$1770 for a Vudoo barreled action? I'll pass

 

[TexasTightwad]

I just did a whole bunch of figuring, and here's what I came up with:
6.5 Creedmoor handloads

Total cost per round (without barrel wear): $.543

Brass: 350 pieces Peterson total $248.88
@ 5 loads each, cost is $.142 per use

Bullets: 1000 Pieces 140gr Nosler Custom Competition (ELD M would cost $.31/rd)
$.243 each

Primers: 1000 pieces CCI 400
$.035 each

Powder: 8lb Shooters World Long Rifle will load 1333 rounds @ 42gr
$.123 per round

With an expected barrel life of 2000 rounds and a new barrel costing $348, that adds $.174 per round for a total cost of $.717 per round

If I switch to Hornady 140gr ELD-M, the total cost will be $.784




.223

Powder: Shooters World Match Rifle yields 2383 rounds @23.5gr
$.066/rd

Brass: Snipers Hide Lake City $.10 @5 reloadings
$.02/rd

Primer: CCI 400
$.032/rd

Bullet: Hornady 75gr ELD-M
$.202/rd

With an expected barrel life of 5000 rounds and a new barrel costing $348, the cost per round is $.07

Total cost per round $.39



It will take 508 rounds for the .223 to pay for the $200 bolt face (not counting shipping).
I think I'm going to go ahead and do it. I'll save money in the long run, although this will tie more of it up.

 

[Dai Bando]

$1770 for a Vudoo barreled action? I'll pass

I have over 7,000 rounds through my Vudoo since mid Feb.

Ammo = $350

Wind reading practice = priceless

 

[TexasTightwad]

I have the chamber options of .223 rem, .223 rem match, and .223 Wylde. Anybody know the best choice for a long range bolt gun?

 

[Dai Bando]

Wylde

 

[bjay]

Well for us that uses deviant or action without interchangeable face will have to buy another complete bolt to do 223 as training rig..which of 308 boltface family just as tame as 223? 6br? Maybe??

 

[Dai Bando]

I just did a whole bunch of figuring, and here's what I came up with:
6.5 Creedmoor handloads

Total cost per round (without barrel wear): $.543

Brass: 350 pieces Peterson total $248.88
@ 5 loads each, cost is $.142 per use

Bullets: 1000 Pieces 140gr Nosler Custom Competition (ELD M would cost $.31/rd)
$.243 each

Primers: 1000 pieces CCI 400
$.035 each

Powder: 8lb Shooters World Long Rifle will load 1333 rounds @ 42gr
$.123 per round

With an expected barrel life of 2000 rounds and a new barrel costing $348, that adds $.174 per round for a total cost of $.717 per round

If I switch to Hornady 140gr ELD-M, the total cost will be $.784




.223

Powder: Shooters World Match Rifle yields 2383 rounds @23.5gr
$.066/rd

Brass: Snipers Hide Lake City $.10 @5 reloadings
$.02/rd

Primer: CCI 400
$.032/rd

Bullet: Hornady 75gr ELD-M
$.202/rd

With an expected barrel life of 5000 rounds and a new barrel costing $348, the cost per round is $.07

Total cost per round $.39



It will take 508 rounds for the .223 to pay for the $200 bolt face (not counting shipping).
I think I'm going to go ahead and do it. I'll save money in the long run, although this will tie more of it up.

You'll get way more than 5 reloads on Peterson brass and way more than 5,000 rounds on a .223 barrel fyi

 

[Sheldon N]

I just did a whole bunch of figuring, and here's what I came up with:
6.5 Creedmoor handloads

Try this spreadsheet... Hopefully you're able to save it and input your own data.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GJ1VQef050JOhirKCeF5gkm-hBFvjfQrUvyj6-eVCLY/edit?usp=sharing

 

[Chalkeye]

Wylde

No. Get the match chamber.

 

[TexasTightwad]

.223 all the way...

We have used them for our shooting school to 1000 yards for a decade. They will get there, just don't hit real hard. An absolute blast to shoot and train with. We reload the 75 amax and now the ELD's with varget.

Good luck and make sure you get the right twist to shoot the heavy bullets.

JamieD
Wolf Precision, Inc.
www.wolfprecision.net

75gr bullets do fine to 1000 yards? I have no experience yet with LR .223, and I am seeing most people suggesting 80-90. I need to figure out the weight before I decide on twist. What would you suggest for weight, chamber, and twist?

 

[Ledzep]

Agree, if you're hand loading get the match chamber.

Also agree that you'll probably get more than 5000 rounds from a 223. Recently saw a 222 barrel finally go noticeably south at 18600 rounds...

 

[308pirate]

I need to figure out the weight before I decide on twist.

You do not. Get a 7 twist and be done. You can shoot any bullet you want with that with the possible exception of the 90s. If you want to be sure the 90s will stabilize, get a 6.5.

 

[Ledzep]

I'd go 1:7 twist, personally. Probably run 75 or 80 ELDs.

Fwiw, I have run 90 vlds at 2800fps in a 1:8 barrel and they were stable and accurate to 1400+. I think a 1:7 is good enough for everything. ymmv.

 

[Fig]

Try this spreadsheet... Hopefully you're able to save it and input your own data.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GJ1VQef050JOhirKCeF5gkm-hBFvjfQrUvyj6-eVCLY/edit?usp=sharing

That's kind of neat. Did you put that together? You an accountant? My brain doesn't work like that, but I can admire it.

I think you're more than a little pessimistic on your barrel life though...

 

[308pirate]

Fwiw, I have run 90 vlds at 2800fps in a 1:8 barrel and they were stable and accurate to 1400+. I think a 1:7 is good enough for everything. ymmv.

I agree. I didn't want to overcomplicated for the OP with the influence of MV on stabilization. But yes if you drive a 90 fast enough a 1 in 6.5 isn't needed.

The 6.5 twist came from what the Army Marksmanship Unit found was necessary to stabilize a SMK 90 from the 20" barrel required in AR15s for Service Rifle competition. You can barely get 2600 fps (more like 2500-ish) from a 90 out of a 20" barrel. A longer barrel (especially in a bolt gun) can get quite a bit more speed so less twist is necessary to spin them fast enough.

 

[TexasTightwad]

I am already ordering a 28" bull 6.5 Creedmoor Criterion pre-fit from Northland Shooters Supply, and he says he has 28" bull 7-twist .223s on the shelf, so looks like I'll be getting a 1:7. Now to find out about chambers.

So why is a match chamber better for my application than a standard or a Wylde?

 

[TexasTightwad]

Oh, and I know I was estimating on the low side for barrel life and number of brass loadings. In my logic, it's better to calculate everything based on worst case scenario. That way you won't skew the numbers by being overly optimistic, and you can budget properly. In the likely event that you get longer life out of them, it will just be a bonus.

 

[b6graham]

i would suggest doing a 223AI. you can still use regular handload/factory 223 ammo and it'll shoot just fine when fireforming. then when you get a few hundred (or a thousand) rounds down the tube you can load up all AI ammo and get little more speed to make better use of the 88/90/95. if you're ever in a pinch you can just grab some boxes of 223 off the shelf

 

[TexasTightwad]

I was wondering about that: how well .223 shoots in a .223 ai. Is there any accuracy lost?

 

[Crang]

Just converted my Tikka to a 223 clone of my 6.5 TRG. I actually plan to not handload for the 223. I figure I can buy Hornady 75gr bthps in steel cases for a few cents less than it costs me to handload for the 6.5. I just dont have time to make enough ammo during the week to shoot as much as I need to practice on the weekend. Debating getting a progressive press just for 223 but right now totally happy buying cheap match ammo for $0.30/round for the bulk of my practice and only burning 50 rounds of the handloaded 6.5 stuff a weekend.

 

[Sheldon N]

75gr bullets do fine to 1000 yards? I have no experience yet with LR .223, and I am seeing most people suggesting 80-90. I need to figure out the weight before I decide on twist. What would you suggest for weight, chamber, and twist?

The thing you're going to run into is cost vs desire to shoot longer ranges with 223. Like reubenski said the Hornady 75BTHP are reasonably priced especially if you buy the 4k bulk pack. That's what I've been running. Then the question of how hot you want to load them also is a factor. You run a fast velocity you'll be more likely to loosen primer pockets on your brass and shorten barrel life. The heavier, higher BC bullets are going to be more expensive to run overall. I personally have settled on slower loads with cheaper, lower BC bullets and just do my practicing inside of 600 yards, often just at 200 yards for positional stuff.

That's kind of neat. Did you put that together? You an accountant? My brain doesn't work like that, but I can admire it.

I think you're more than a little pessimistic on your barrel life though...

No, not an accountant but I'm handy with excel. I modified and refined someone elses spreadsheet idea to make it work.

I don't think I'm too pessimistic on barrel life, my current 223 trainer has 4500 rounds and has opened up from a 1/4 MOA 5 shot gun to a 3/4 MOA gun. I also see the BC of bullets dropping off. I'm having to add elevation despite shooting the same bullet at the same speed. I've also got between 80 and 100 thou of throat erosion. I figure I might run it another 1k or so then swap over to the next barrel. I need the gun to be able to reliably hit 1MOA targets to be a worthwhile trainer. Shooting a button rifle vs cut rifle blank can also be a factor.

 

[TexasTightwad]

Just converted my Tikka to a 223 clone of my 6.5 TRG. I actually plan to not handload for the 223. I figure I can buy Hornady 75gr bthps in steel cases for a few cents less than it costs me to handload for the 6.5. I just dont have time to make enough ammo during the week to shoot as much as I need to practice on the weekend. Debating getting a progressive press just for 223 but right now totally happy buying cheap match ammo for $0.30/round for the bulk of my practice and only burning 50 rounds of the handloaded 6.5 stuff a weekend.

What/where are you buying for $.30/rd?

 

[kthomas]

So the plan is to constantly swap back and forth between barrels AND bolt heads for training?

I'm willing to bet that constantly swapping those over is going to get very old, and that you end up building a dedicated .223 trainer rifle. That always seems to be the natural cycle of those trying to do switch barrel setups.

That will obviously eat up any potential savings of doing a trainer round. Personally I vote to train with 6.5 creedmoor ammo. Unless you are shooting A LOT of rounds, it's not going to make fiscal sense to have a dedicated training cartridge (I'm operating under the assumption the OP will get sick of constantly swapping back and forth and build a dedicated rifle for that round - as most people do). There are advantages to training with the round that you are competing with - more intimate knowledge of the ballistics, as well as a better understanding of how the increase recoil will affect you and your shots from compromised positions under the clock.

I would never persuade someone from building another rifle. But I don't envision swapping bolts and barrels back and forth for too long. With limited time in life to shoot and reload, the inconvenience of swapping bolts and barrels will override the desire to save a little money.

 

[Crang]

What/where are you buying for $.30/rd?

Bought a case of the Hornady steel case 75gr 223 ammo. Honestly cant remember the source at the moment. They make 2 kinds- one is Steel Match and the other is steel case practice ammo similar to TAP.

 

[TexasTightwad]

So the plan is to constantly swap back and forth between barrels AND bolt heads for training?

I'm willing to bet that constantly swapping those over is going to get very old, and that you end up building a dedicated .223 trainer rifle. That always seems to be the natural cycle of those trying to do switch barrel setups.

That will obviously eat up any potential savings of doing a trainer round. Personally I vote to train with 6.5 creedmoor ammo. Unless you are shooting A LOT of rounds, it's not going to make fiscal sense to have a dedicated training cartridge (I'm operating under the assumption the OP will get sick of constantly swapping back and forth and build a dedicated rifle for that round - as most people do). There are advantages to training with the round that you are competing with - more intimate knowledge of the ballistics, as well as a better understanding of how the increase recoil will affect you and your shots from compromised positions under the clock.

I would never persuade someone from building another rifle. But I don't envision swapping bolts and barrels back and forth for too long. With limited time in life to shoot and reload, the inconvenience of swapping bolts and barrels will override the desire to save a little money.

Swapping bolt heads should take a couple of minutes I'm guessing. Swapping barrels would just mean loosening a screw, unscrewing a barrel, sticking a go gauge in, screwing the new barrel in until it touches, barely backing it off, and re-tightening the screw (and checking with a no-go if you want, but I plan on match-marking my timing).
What I may get sick of is re-zeroing. If the barrels would go back on the same way every time, I could just use an offset for my trainer. But I'm guessing I can expect it to be different every time.

I agree that practicing with your match-round is better, but if it's 50 rounds of of 6.5 or 92 rounds of 223, more rounds of practice probably has the advantage.

 

[kthomas]

What did you find inconvenient about it?

I've been doing it for a while now.

I actually swap between a 6.5 creedmoor and 6BRA barrel. But most people I know who bought switch barrel setups now have dedicated rifles for each cartridge.

 

[bunsen27]

I am already ordering a 28" bull 6.5 Creedmoor Criterion pre-fit from Northland Shooters Supply, and he says he has 28" bull 7-twist .223s on the shelf, so looks like I'll be getting a 1:7. Now to find out about chambers.

So why is a match chamber better for my application than a standard or a Wylde?

I had to make this same decision in April when ordering my .223Rem 1 in 8" Criterion barrel from NSS. The standard chamber is a no go because the freebore is too short to run the longer 75gr-90gr bullets. If I recall correctly the Match chamber has longer freebore, a slightly different throat angle, and the case body is smaller than the Wylde chamber (Dimensions R, N, & C respectively) on paper. How does this translate into the real World... I went with the Wylde chamber instead of Jame's at NSS suggested Match chamber. Thus far I've developed three sub half MOA loads with Hornady 73gr, 75gr, and 80gr ELD-M's (3045, 2850, and 2960fps). I use a bushing die to resize, and run LC brass for the 73gr & 75gr loads. I run Lapua brass for the 80gr just because I had 100 pieces laying around. I also run CCI 41 primers. I guess theoretically the Match chamber should shoot better? My Criterion pre-fit shoots lights out, YMMV.

 

[Clint E.]

My 2 cents.... On a previous platform I had a .223 trainer and found two things that were less than ideal.
Lack of recoil and signature on target.
At my range you can only use the steel supplied by the range, which for longevity reasons is thick and heavy as hell, spotting impacts was challenging at times.

When I switched to an AI a I ran the factory 308 barrel for training and a 6 Creedmoor for matches. Two things I noticed.
I could spot impacts better and it made me better at managing recoil.

If you are using reasonable sized targets at reasonable distances for trigger time and praticing the fundamentals, bulk ammo can be used to good effect in my experience. I was running Hornady 308 steel match and it was surprisingly accurate.

 

[TexasTightwad]

No, if you set your rifle and barrels up right you can perform the swap in less than a minute. Don't use a Barloc, its not necessary. Just screw your shouldered barrels on to 20 - 40 ft/lbs. Doing this with a TL-3 the barrels return to zero every time. I see no change in accuracy or POI in that range. Haven't tried below 20 or above 40. If you're using barrel nut'd prefits install and headspace the barrel using your go/ no go gauges and loctite on the barrel but. I have 2 set up this way. My Smith drilled a set screw thru the nut into the barrel tenon converting the nut into a fixed shoulder.

I also have him cut two flats into the muzzle end like an AW so I can grip the barrel with a torque wrench.

The Barloc eliminates the need for the torque wrench. Not necessary, but nice.

I'll be using prefits with barrel nuts. I might add the set screws like you. I am a machinist, so I kind of am my own gunsmith.

 

[308pirate]

The Wylde chamber has been proven with sub MOA accuracy and flawless function in over two decades of NRA/CMP service rifle competition. I seriously doubt anyone outside of the benchrest world can tell any measurable increase in accuracy with a 223 "match" chamber. That goes double when shooting steel plates where a hit anywhere counts the same as one right in the middle.

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

 

[DDoug]

What is the freebore or throat length between the Wylde and the Match. Is one better suited for the heavys?

 

[hlee]

My time is more valuable than bullets, barrels, and brass. For me, it makes the most sense to train with the rifle I'll shoot in comps. Same, ammo, same barrel, same chassis, same dope. They say practice makes perfect, but "they" are wrong. Practice makes permanent. Perfect practice makes perfect. Other "theys" say train how you fight. This resonates with me, and has application well beyond combat.

 

[308pirate]

What is the freebore or throat length between the Wylde and the Match. Is one better suited for the heavys?

I'm sure you can find both chambers' dimensions on line

 

[Campguy308]

I am putting together a Nucleus with Barloc, and am considering doing a switch-barrel set-up for training. Any suggestions on which cartridge? For competition I will be using 6.5 Creedmoor handloads, and the training rounds would probably be handloads too. I know a lot of people use .223, but I figured I'd see if there was anything better. I'm looking for low cost per round, long barrel life (because that's part of cost per round), and something that is reasonable to use for distances 1100 yards or less.

I run a 223AI with 80s. I love it, shoots great, lots of fun. However, I would recommend going with a straight 223 instead of the AI version if your goal is cheap training. I usually fireform while practicing positional, but regardless of what anyone says, you don't have an AI case until you fireform.

 

[spife7980]

What is the freebore or throat length between the Wylde and the Match. Is one better suited for the heavys?

Criterions wylde is a .0619 freebore (as are pretty much all of them)

The criterion rem match is a .090 freebore and the throat is .004" tighter. When I asked some said that the criterion match still wouldnt be enough for the 90 sierras and that if you really want to run them then a freebore of .169 would be better suited, though way beyond mag length so single feed only.

I went with the wylde (though in a pva barrel but the same freebore) and after having it all set up now with a 75 eld I would rather have the match with .030 more throat. The match would still allow for mag use but would get a bit of this bullets ass up and out of the case.

 

[Dai Bando]

I can't get a 75 ELD-M within 20 thou of the lands at mag length in a Wylde chamber. Not sure how you would be able to do that with 30 thou more FB on top of that. My COAL with a 75 ELDM 10 thou off the lands in a new Wylde chamber is 2.65" IIRC

That's too long for sure.

I want a 75 eld around 2.45" ish.

 

[spife7980]

I can't get a 75 ELD-M within 20 thou of the lands at mag length in a Wylde chamber. Not sure how you would be able to do that with 30 thou more FB on top of that. My COAL with a 75 ELDM 10 thou off the lands in a new Wylde chamber is 2.65" IIRC

What mags are you using? I trimmed the front lip off my accurate mag and it looks like I would have enough room. Ill try to get calipers on them this evening to compare oals with yours.

 

[spife7980]

75 eld in a pva wylde chamber
Touching found via wheeler method is
1.892 ogive = 2.432 oal according to my notes
I wonder why yours is so much longer? I will admit that I had a tough time finding it and was initially way out at and beyond your measurement but worked my way back to where I am now and it had the traditional free bolt drop finally.
Maybe I need to run it again or check with a cleaning rod or borrow someone’s hornady gauge but I felt pretty confident in my result at the time.

This is one I already had loaded that’s seated .010 off the lands

The accurate mag by default is 2.3” but shave that little front lip off and you can get it to 2.5 and the plastic aics pos can take 2.55. So with where I’m at now I have plenty but you’re already way beyond.

 

[Sheldon N]

I wonder why yours is so much longer? I will admit that I had a tough time finding it and was initially way out at and beyond your measurement but worked my way back to where I am now and it had the traditional free bolt drop finally.

If the difference between a hard jam and "touch" is more than 15-20 thou I suspect that you've got something else going on in your measurements (snug freebore, non-concentric round touching just one side, etc).

 

[spife7980]

If the difference between a hard jam and "touch" is more than 15-20 thou I suspect that you've got something else going on in your measurements (snug freebore, non-concentric round touching just one side, etc).

I suspected that but lots of them were giving the same result.
You run 75s, right? What’s your length?