What should I do???????????????????

[sjmpcc022]

I think I know the answer already but I'm going to ask it anyways.

I just got my rifle put together and started load developement. For now I have 140gr Hornaday Match Monster bullets and IMR 4064. I've come up with a pretty nice mix that seems pretty accurate doing about 2625fps with no pressure signs. My powder drop is 37.1gr. Yesterday I was able to get to a range that goes out to 300yds and the results were satisfying. I wasn't sure how the gun or my ammo would do but everything went pretty well. I do have some H4350 and some 140gr ELD bullets, but since I am brand new at this I think I want to focus on the current load until I learn more later in the season. I don't have a ton of the better stuff and it doesn't seem I will get any soon. I also have another 1000 Nosler Custom Competition bullets on order, and I think they are very similar to the MM bullets. The ogive is further forward towards the point of the bullet, so I have to push the OAL back to 2.785 to get the bolt to close. With a dummy ELD loading 2.820 is no problem.

There is the long winded background, now the question...................... The first match of the season is April 10th. I was hoping to have the chance to get out somewhere and build some data before I shoot a match. As it looks now, that won't happen other than what I did yesterday. I just sent an e mail about one opportunity I may have but I'm not counting on it. I have .2mil at 200yds and 1.0 at 300. I don't have a Kestrel and I learned the Marc Taylor weaponized math at the class I took with him and Frank last year.

I know there is a lot of data available, but until I would actually try it it's theory. Do I jump in with both feet and say fuck it, I want to shoot and see what happens? Baptism by fire is usually a pretty good teacher, but the matches are expensive and components are not readily available, as everyone knows. I don't want to shoot 100 rounds into the wind but I guess you gotta start somewhere.

 

[nn8734]

What cartridge are you shooting? 6.5 Creedmoor? If so, 2,625 fps seems slow for a 140g bullet and ~37g is on the light side of the typical chargeweight curve for the 6.5CM and 140g projectiles. Are you using Federal brass in that load? H4350 and the 140s should get you another 100 fps or so.

Also buy a Kestrel. You don’t need to spend a lot of money for the ones with AB and/or blue tooth just something to give you basic atmospherics. Especially if you will be traveling beyond your immediate AO to shoot matches, where environmental conditions will vary from what you are familiar with.

I have validated drop data on all my rifles taken at multiple points in the year so I already have a pretty good idea what it will take elevation-wise to hit a target at “X” distance assuming X is within the system’s capabilities and I don’t fuck up the wind call or fundamentals. That helps keep wasted rounds to a minimum.

ETA: IMR4046? Do you mean IMR4064?

 

[DownhillFromHere]

You don't mention whether you have a ballistic calculator. If not, get one. If you already have one, it may well be that you already know the following... if so, skip this and drive on.

I've tried quite a few, including the Kestrel with AB and all the bells and whistles... and I kept coming back to Strelok Pro, and I haven't even looked at anything else for over a year now.

If you have access to a 300-yard range, you can get a fair amount of truing for any given load. That is, after you feed all your data to Strelok (or whatever one you use), it will give you a reticle elevation for your chosen range. So then you set that elevation and fling some bullets. Your group Point of Impact (PoI) may differ from Point of Aim (PoA); if so, the calculator provides means for adjustment.

The further out you can go for "truing test," the better... up to a point. The further out you go, the more impact atmospherics (wind) has on POI vs POA. If I'm working up a new load for a 6.5CM, I'll start the truing process at 300, then confirm at 500 or even further. But 300 is a great place to start on a calm day.

As @nn8734 said, 2625fps is slow for a 6.5CM... but if you're using IMR-4064 (you typed 4046, which I think used to be made but is no longer even listed as an IMR product), your load is at or near max for the caliber and bullet.

Finally, I will respectfully disagree with @nn8734 as regards a Kestrel - I don't think it's a necessity. Nice to have, certainly, but not a necessity (I have one, got an open-box one on sale cheap). Just because the wind is blowing from the west at 4mph where you're holding your Kestrel doesn't mean it's blowing anything like that 750 yards away, especially if trees and terrain features are in play. You can learn to estimate wind with environmental elements (leaves, grass, mirage, etc.).

Bottom line is, if you don't have a ballistic calculator, get one right now and learn it before your match. To me, that's vastly more important than working up another load with a higher velocity.

 

[nn8734]

You don't mention whether you have a ballistic calculator. If not, get one. If you already have one, it may well be that you already know the following... if so, skip this and drive on.

I've tried quite a few, including the Kestrel with AB and all the bells and whistles... and I kept coming back to Strelok Pro, and I haven't even looked at anything else for over a year now.

If you have access to a 300-yard range, you can get a fair amount of truing for any given load. That is, after you feed all your data to Strelok (or whatever one you use), it will give you a reticle elevation for your chosen range. So then you set that elevation and fling some bullets. Your group Point of Impact (PoI) may differ from Point of Aim (PoA); if so, the calculator provides means for adjustment.

The further out you can go for "truing test," the better... up to a point. The further out you go, the more impact atmospherics (wind) has on POI vs POA. If I'm working up a new load for a 6.5CM, I'll start the truing process at 300, then confirm at 500 or even further. But 300 is a great place to start on a calm day.

As @nn8734 said, 2625fps is slow for a 6.5CM... but if you're using IMR-4064 (you typed 4046, which I think used to be made but is no longer even listed as an IMR product), your load is at or near max for the caliber and bullet.

Finally, I will respectfully disagree with @nn8734 as regards a Kestrel - I don't think it's a necessity. Nice to have, certainly, but not a necessity (I have one, got an open-box one on sale cheap). Just because the wind is blowing from the west at 4mph where you're holding your Kestrel doesn't mean it's blowing anything like that 750 yards away, especially if trees and terrain features are in play. You can learn to estimate wind with environmental elements (leaves, grass, mirage, etc.).

Bottom line is, if you don't have a ballistic calculator, get one right now and learn it before your match. To me, that's vastly more important than working up another load with a higher velocity.

Agree with respect to wind calling using a kestrel but I use little contractor’s ribbon tied to targets to assess wind patterns at the target itself. Or use mirage and/or vegetation if using the ribbon strips isn’t an option.

I use the kestrel to record Temp, Hum, Hg, DA primarily. However you can sometimes use your phone to gather this info, the kestrel makes it easy.

 

[308pirate]

TLDR reloading bullshit

The first match of the season is April 10th. I was hoping to have the chance to get out somewhere and build some data before I shoot a match. As it looks now, that won't happen other than what I did yesterday. I just sent an e mail about one opportunity I may have but I'm not counting on it. I have .2mil at 200yds and 1.0 at 300. I don't have a Kestrel

Be resourceful. You have actual data points. There are free ballistic calculators online. You don't need a Kestrel.

Now go and build a dope table.

 

[ACard]

Be resourceful. You have actual data points. There are free ballistic calculators online. You don't need a Kestrel.

Now go and build a dope table.

This^^^
This method is tried and true, not as easy for sure, but very doable. If you do not want to do this the another very reasonable option is the weathermeter for long range shooting from geotech and strelok pro

 

[Steel head]

Be resourceful. You have actual data points. There are free ballistic calculators online. You don't need a Kestrel.

Now go and build a dope table.

I ran free and cheap ballistic apps for quite a few years.
They do work.

 

[308pirate]

I ran free and cheap ballistic apps for quite a few years.
They do work.

I could tell the OP exactly what to input in every data box for JBM Ballistics. But I won't.

From past experience, and understanding human nature, all that does is create someone who depends on others to answer every question.

He will learn more on his own.

 

[Tokay444]

Does Hornady have a new bullet?

 

[demolitionman]

Does Hornady have a new bullet?

Looks like maybe a factory second bullet specially made for midsouthshootersupply.....

 

[sjmpcc022]

What cartridge are you shooting? 6.5 Creedmoor? If so, 2,625 fps seems slow for a 140g bullet and ~37g is on the light side of the typical chargeweight curve for the 6.5CM and 140g projectiles. Are you using Federal brass in that load? H4350 and the 140s should get you another 100 fps or so.

Also buy a Kestrel. You don’t need to spend a lot of money for the ones with AB and/or blue tooth just something to give you basic atmospherics. Especially if you will be traveling beyond your immediate AO to shoot matches, where environmental conditions will vary from what you are familiar with.

I have validated drop data on all my rifles taken at multiple points in the year so I already have a pretty good idea what it will take elevation-wise to hit a target at “X” distance assuming X is within the system’s capabilities and I don’t fuck up the wind call or fundamentals. That helps keep wasted rounds to a minimum.

ETA: IMR4046? Do you mean IMR4064?

Oops, yes IMR4064, I edited the post. And also affirmative on 6.5CM, oversight on my part.

 

[Tokay444]

Looks like maybe a factory second bullet specially made for midsouthshootersupply.....

I saw that Nosler had that, but couldn’t see a Barbary one.

 

[wpeach1912]

I used to run a savage 6.5 creed that was running 2600 with 140 ELDMs and 2630 with American Gunner. Shot a lot of matches with it and generally didn’t feel held back by my load and rifle. I just used a ballistics app on my phone for holds, but I was able to get dope out to 600 before my first match. I’d just load up what you have and go. Worst case you’ll have to adjust your dope at the match. No kestrel necessary either. They’re nice to have, but something you can definitely upgrade to later

 

[sjmpcc022]

Does Hornady have a new bullet?

Looks like maybe a factory second bullet specially made for midsouthshootersupply.....

I do appreciate all the good info, especially what 308 pirate said. I'm not looking for data from anyone, just experience speaking. I know about Strelok and a few other ballistic programs, I just wasn't sure I could go in cold on that info, I guess I can.

I know 2625 is slow, but I have much IMR 4064 ( I mis typed in the first post) and the Match Monster bullets. From my reading they aren't seconds, but are made for Midsouth. All info I found on the Hide seems to say they are accurate. I've done much digging on 4064 and I think I'm at the top with a 140gr bullet, like 8734 said. They seem pretty accurate, so for now I drive what I brung.

As far as the OAL, this bullet is visibly different from an ELD bullet. Side by side it is very obvious. I know they have the goofy thing you clamp on your caliper called a bullet comparator that is supposed to measure from the bottom of the case to the " ogive" of the bullet. That seems kind of hinky to me because depending on the shape of the bullet, that device will fall in wherever the diameter of it meets the diameter of your specific bullet. By that standard my MM bullets would be longer than the ELD bullets. Since I am limited by OAL because of the magazine, that measurement seems to be the most important one right now. I loaded up two dummy rounds and took them to work, I am a tool and die maker so this stuff makes sense to me. I put each in a real comparator and checked the distance from the tip of the bullet to the point where the full diameter( caliber) meets the point where the radius starts. The Match Monster bullet was almost .100 closer to the tip than the ELD bullet. The ELD bullet is much sleeker with a slower gradual taper and the MM is more rounded toward the top.

I guess every bullet will hit the lands at some point, so you have to load some yet to be determined distance shorter than that.

Thanks for all the good info and I think I'm going to sign up for the match and learn a ballistic program real fast!

 

[DownhillFromHere]

As far as the OAL, this bullet is visibly different from an ELD bullet. Side by side it is very obvious. I know they have the goofy thing you clamp on your caliper called a bullet comparator that is supposed to measure from the bottom of the case to the " ogive" of the bullet.

The object of the exercise with the comparator is to find "a reading of" the distance between the base of the cartridge and the point where the bullet touches the rifling - hence you'll see the term "CBTO" in thread here (Cartridge Base to Ogive). Think it through - you can't load long pointy bullets like Bergers to the same COAL (or COL - Cartridge Overall Length - base to bullet ti) as shorter fatter ones like Sierra Match Kings. As long as the round fits in your magazine (or you single load), it doesn't matter how far the bullet extends into the barrel; what you care about is how far off the lands your bullet is seated. There are tons of threads here about seating depth, and your load data source should specify a COAL. Berger suggests this approach for their VLD bullets but it's applicable to all. And, by the way - you may see references to Hornady's Overall Length tool which uses a modified cartridge case to help you find CBTO. I borrowed one and found it to be an inconsistent pos. I used a Dremel tool to cut a slit in a case neck which allows a bullet to be placed in the case and pushed into the chamber; the bullet moves... repeat the exercise a few times and I get CBTOs consistent within a thousandth or two.

So the reason I put "a reading of" CBTO above is the comparator is not a terribly precise thing. It's not a good idea to assume a CBTO reading Billy Bob gets with a given bullet will be the same as his buddy gets with a different comparator. What it gives you is a reference for YOU to use to obtain and maintain a consistent CBTO with a given bullet. Of course, as your barrel wears, the CBTO will increase; some people "chase the lands" and others don't (or can't, if they use factory ammo).

You've got a month to get familiar with a ballistic calculator, and a lot of that familiarization can be done in an easy chair. Strelok Pro has an incredible feature set and library of scopes, bullets, and cartridges. Last time I looked, it was like $12. It's a screaming deal! The documentation is thin at best, but the app is very well supported and is updated often.

 

[sjmpcc022]

I could tell the OP exactly what to input in every data box for JBM Ballistics. But I won't.

From past experience, and understanding human nature, all that does is create someone who depends on others to answer every question.

He will learn more on his own.

Ok, I've looked at a few of the programs. Hornaday was simple but seemed to give me info I know wasn't right from what I did at the range Saturday, but I think I'm a bit fuzzy on a couple of the terms they use.

I'm going to try the JBM program .308 suggested. It looks pretty straight forward, but a few things are unclear.
Sight height................ my mount is 1.250" high and the scope CL is about 2.300 above the CL of the bore.
Line of sight angle???????????????????????????????
Cant angle??????????????????????????????????????
Target speed???????????????????????????????????????

I think I have the rest figured out.

 

[308pirate]

Ok, I've looked at a few of the programs. Hornaday was simple but seemed to give me info I know wasn't right from what I did at the range Saturday, but I think I'm a bit fuzzy on a couple of the terms they use.

I'm going to try the JBM program .308 suggested. It looks pretty straight forward, but a few things are unclear.
Sight height................ my mount is 1.250" high and the scope CL is about 2.300 above the CL of the bore.
Line of sight angle???????????????????????????????
Cant angle??????????????????????????????????????
Target speed???????????????????????????????????????

I think I have the rest figured out.

There's explanations for all inputs under the ?

If in doubt leave it alone

 

[sjmpcc022]

Thanks, I saw the little bracketed number to the right, I assumed it was a suggestion. That's exactly what I did, I will find the ?

I put the BC and weight of my bullet in since they don't have the bullets I'm using. I'm getting the same numbers that came up on the Hornaday calculator earlier. .5 for 200yds and 1.2 for 300yds. When I shot Saturday I was at .2 and 1.0. I guess it's going to be a ballpark guess.

 

[6.5SH]

Thanks, I saw the little bracketed number to the right, I assumed it was a suggestion. That's exactly what I did, I will find the ?

I put the BC and weight of my bullet in since they don't have the bullets I'm using. I'm getting the same numbers that came up on the Hornaday calculator earlier. .5 for 200yds and 1.2 for 300yds. When I shot Saturday I was at .2 and 1.0. I guess it's going to be a ballpark guess.

Adjust the environmental stuff to match? The chronograph distance? (set 0 for LabRadar and magnetospeed). If using a LabRadar is another trick you can use to get some better BC info.

 

[sjmpcc022]

I got the BC off the bullet box. The numbers I came up with were off but in the same direction . I have data written down out to 1000yds from the JBM calculator. I also have other data from the class I took last August. I'm hoping I can mash it all together and come up with numbers that should be pretty close to on target?

 

[theLBC]

i'd say that by now you should have an Impact Databook or something similar to start logging your actual dope.
there may be charts in there for factory ammo that will get you in the ballpark.

 

[sjmpcc022]

I do, I've recorded every round I've fired so far, all 46 of them.

I just put my info in the Hornaday calculator again and came up about the same as the JBM calculator.

It is consistent in that they both say to dial more than I had to. I wonder if the bullets I'm using do a little better than the BC says they should? The box lists BC at .529

 

[6.5SH]

I do, I've recorded every round I've fired so far, all 46 of them.

I just put my info in the Hornaday calculator again and came up about the same as the JBM calculator.

It is consistent in that they both say to dial more than I had to. I wonder if the bullets I'm using do a little better than the BC says they should? The box lists BC at .529

Remember that number is an average and is velocity dependent. No idea at what distances Nosler (AFAIK Match Monster are Nosler not Hornady) tests theirs or the method used.

Provided your measured drops are accurate one (or more) of your other inputs has to be wrong.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

Wait. Where did you get the velocity from?

If it's off a reloading chart, it's for all intents and purposes an educated guess.

With measured drops at various ranges, you can extrapolate velocity. But using velocities from a cartridge box or reloading manual to program a ballistic calculator is not going to yield good data for you.

At some point, if you're going to be serious about this discipline, you'll need a chronograph. Down the rabbit hole you go.

 

[sjmpcc022]

I do have one, my velocity was derived from it.

 

[sjmpcc022]

Remember that number is an average and is velocity dependent. No idea at what distances Nosler (AFAIK Match Monster are Nosler not Hornady) tests theirs or the method used.

Provided your measured drops are accurate one (or more) of your other inputs has to be wrong.

Correct, I just found the small print on the box, Nosler. Maybe they were mis labeled on the website. I also have some Custom Competition bullets on order, I am assuming they will be more like a MM than an ELD bullet.

That is my 300yd target, I'm trying to get the other one to send.

 

[sjmpcc022]

Here it is, it came through.

 

[smoothy8500]

If you have access to a 300-yard range, you can get a fair amount of truing for any given load.

It is consistent in that they both say to dial more than I had to.

It looks like you need to use the truing feature if it's available on those calculators. The Strelok Pro is pretty simple and will "tweak" the velocity a little bit to match your results. I also use 300yd dope for truing and find it correct to 800yds. At 900 to 1K it needs .1/.2mil more than the suggested elevation. This is my results using Nosler CC's, which supposedly the Match Monster actually is.

 

[sjmpcc022]

It looks like you need to use the truing feature if it's available on those calculators. The Strelok Pro is pretty simple and will "tweak" the velocity a little bit to match your results. I also use 300yd dope for truing and find it correct to 800yds. At 900 to 1K it needs .1/.2mil more than the suggested elevation. This is my results using Nosler CC's, which supposedly the Match Monster actually is.

That is very helpful, thank you. So the calculator will make the data match your dials, then you go from there. Kind of like reverse engineering, I will see if I can find that!

 

[sled_mack]

Double check your zero and target distances. Drops of .4 for 200 and 1.2 for 300 sounds about right for a 140 class bullet.

Get as squared away as you can and shoot the match. There’s a lot to be learned even with imperfect data. And have fun!

 

[sjmpcc022]

Double check your zero and target distances. Drops of .4 for 200 and 1.2 for 300 sounds about right for a 140 class bullet.

Get as squared away as you can and shoot the match. There’s a lot to be learned even with imperfect data. And have fun!

I appreciate the kind words, and I plan on learning a lot. Maybe even hit a few in the process!

I am going to re zero Saturday at my place where I can set the target distance. Then I can try the 300yd range with my rangefinder in hand.

 

[smoothy8500]

Were you able to find the truing feature on the ballistic calc app?

 

[sjmpcc022]

I have been using the JBM calculator and I did not find it. I was just substituting values to try to make it work.

 

[smoothy8500]

I use Strelok Pro, and it's a pretty good value for $20. You have a truing feature, either based on velocity or BC, an internal library of almost all manufactured projectiles, and drop charts matched for just about every scope reticle available.

 

[sjmpcc022]

It's interseting you said that and you're not the first, maybe you can direct me.

I downloaded the free version of Strelock on my tablet and played with it a bit. It sure does have a lot of opportunity to customize absolutley everything you are using or doing and where. I'm betting if I look long enough you can input what kind of boots you are wearing!

The problem I had with it was my scope wasn't in there. I have the Brownells MPO 5-25. It was recommended by lowlight himself and it seemed like a good value, fell right in where I was willing to spend right now. In the future, maybe a ZCO?

Maybe I didn't look hard enough but I figured if my scope isn't in there, what's the point? JBM and Hornaday both have the necessary inputs and figured my numbers almost identical.

Is the pay version of Strelock much better/different?

I use Strelok Pro, and it's a pretty good value for $20. You have a truing feature, either based on velocity or BC, an internal library of almost all manufactured projectiles, and drop charts matched for just about every scope reticle available.

 

[smoothy8500]

I have the Brownells MPO 5-25.

I never used the free version. I just took a quick look, Strelok Pro has the MPO 5-25 reticle. If the free version has truing and multi-target corrections for elevation and wind, then good enough for now.

 

[sjmpcc022]

I never used the free version. I just took a quick look, Strelok Pro has the MPO 5-25 reticle. If the free version has truing and multi-target corrections for elevation and wind, then good enough for now.

I will take a look.

 

[sjmpcc022]

Here is the target and my brass from today, more on that later.

 

[6.5SH]

It's interseting you said that and you're not the first, maybe you can direct me.

I downloaded the free version of Strelock on my tablet and played with it a bit. It sure does have a lot of opportunity to customize absolutley everything you are using or doing and where. I'm betting if I look long enough you can input what kind of boots you are wearing!

The problem I had with it was my scope wasn't in there. I have the Brownells MPO 5-25. It was recommended by lowlight himself and it seemed like a good value, fell right in where I was willing to spend right now. In the future, maybe a ZCO?

Maybe I didn't look hard enough but I figured if my scope isn't in there, what's the point? JBM and Hornaday both have the necessary inputs and figured my numbers almost identical.

Is the pay version of Strelock much better/different?

The free version is much more limited. Less reticles, no truing, G1 only, no multi-target, no weather meter integration.

$11.99 gets you all the features, it is well worth the small price.

The reticle thing is a definite "nice to have" but it isn't a world ender if there is something similar to your design you can use. I have a DMRII with an H-59 which Strelok can't show without paying them, so I use a SIG reticle with a similar layout in the app.

Another decent free app is BallisticsARC. It limits you to one rifle's data and one location (and one range card IIRC).

I and many others here are waiting for Genesis Ballistics Solutions to be released.

 

[acudaowner]

pay the money and enjoy

 

[GrumpyOleFart]

Time on task.
It's a learning game, and that should be part of the fun.

 

[357Max]

Do not use mixed head stamp Brass when trying to load precision ammo.

 

[sjmpcc022]

Do not use mixed head stamp Brass when trying to load precision ammo.

10-4! Luckily all I have is a bunch of Hornaday once fired ( some of it twice now) and some new Starline brass. I will re check everything when I break into the Starline. I even have some new SRP Starline to hedge my bets against not being able to get any more large rifle primers. Again, I'm sure that will be a new load starting over.

 

[357Max]

10-4! Luckily all I have is a bunch of Hornaday once fired ( some of it twice now) and some new Starline brass. I will re check everything when I break into the Starline. I even have some new SRP Starline to hedge my bets against not being able to get any more large rifle primers. Again, I'm sure that will be a new load starting over.

My comment was due to the picture you posted. It had Hornady with some FC head stamp mixed in.
Internal case capacity differs & that will have you chasing your tail trying to work up a load.

What match are you shooting?

 

[sjmpcc022]

My comment was due to the picture you posted. It had Hornady with some FC head stamp mixed in.
Internal case capacity differs & that will have you chasing your tail trying to work up a load.

What match are you shooting?

That was a good catch. When I looked through it all I saw was Hornaday. The pic was for someone on here to verify for me I had no pressure issues. That may very well explain my every once in a while 50fps velocity spike. Nice!! They are still in that box in the order I shot them in so it will b easy to check.

I'm shooting the WPRSC match in April.

 

[357Max]

I'm shooting the MDPRS 4/11. Was just curious if it was the same match.

 

[sjmpcc022]

I'm shooting the MDPRS 4/11. Was just curious if it was the same match.

Mine is on the 10th, I'm in Wisconsin.

 

[sjmpcc022]

Ah, MD, Marylandistan

 

[sjmpcc022]

This was from today, same 300yd range as a few weeks ago. Same zero I established at my place two weeks ago.

 

[sjmpcc022]

The free version is much more limited. Less reticles, no truing, G1 only, no multi-target, no weather meter integration.

$11.99 gets you all the features, it is well worth the small price.

The reticle thing is a definite "nice to have" but it isn't a world ender if there is something similar to your design you can use. I have a DMRII with an H-59 which Strelok can't show without paying them, so I use a SIG reticle with a similar layout in the app.

Another decent free app is BallisticsARC. It limits you to one rifle's data and one location (and one range card IIRC).

I and many others here are waiting for Genesis Ballistics Solutions to be released.

See above post.