What would you do?

[Michael B]

Good morning.
I’ve been lurking / reading for a while. Decided it is time to post.

I haven’t invested much time in shooting in quite a few years. However, my son has developed a strong interest and I always look forward to things we can both enjoy, regardless which one of us comes up with the idea.

I want to upgrade my old 22, and am looking for opinions.

I’m just starting to look around and have found these available locally:
Remington 521 T: 95%, asking $375
CZ 452 with laminated thumbhole stock: 95%, asking $462
Ruger 77: new, asking $622
Remington 540 X: 95%, asking $795
Winchester 52 with barrel band: 95%, asking $795

I don’t care much for thumbhole stocks, strongly preferring a traditional hunting stock, but thought I’d include the CZ in the list.

- or -
See what a good smith can do with my Marlin 81 DL.

- or -
Keep looking.

What would you do?

 

[a1-equipment]

Re: What would you do?

I would go with the cz I have never seen one that was not a tac drive if it does not have the split trigger I would put the rifle basic trigger in for 70

Second would be the win 52 they are a classic make sure you check the bore good for rust. Also they hold there value very well depending on shape seems like a good price

 

[thickstrings]

Re: What would you do?

The 521t is a JR. model of the 513, I think, so stock could be small...could be good for your son. The 540x seems a little high, considering that the 52 is the same price and a classic..The CZ is a great rifle, but if you don't like the thumbhole then don't get it as there are many on Gun Broker in a conventional stock for less....Check out a 453 with a single set trigger. Many will disagree, but, I won't consider the Ruger as I feel they are over priced,and accuracy is hit and miss. I don't think that I would put much into the Marlin. Maybe take a look at the Savage stuff, generally accurate out of the box, and not much $. If you are willing to spend some dough look at a Kimber 82, regular models or a G. My 82 B hunter is more accurate than my 82g, so far....J M O...

 

[Gruff]

Re: What would you do?

If I had the means and opportunity, I'd have a harem of Win 52s. Nothing quite like shooting old iron.

 

[DrillersGoDeeper]

Re: What would you do?

I second the Savage Mark II rifles. They are much cheaper and are very accurate rifles.

That would also leave you some cash for a decent scope compared to the other choices you listed.

Out of those you listed though, I would get the Win 52.

 

[Situation Normal]

Re: What would you do?

Michael B, I'd probably go with a CZ 452 (just not a thoumhole variant).

Have you looked on Buds Guns yet? I know a couple of people personally who have bought from them, and had great experiences doing so.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/index.php

The prices that you posted all seem high to me.

 

[Morgan711]

Re: What would you do?

You should be able to get a NEW CZ Varmint for around $425/450
http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-452-varmint/

 

[darkstar]

Re: What would you do?

Im a Win 52 fanatic. IMHO, of all mentioned, only the win 52 will appreciate in value if that matters to you too. What model of the Win 52? Barrel band as an identifier is not enough. The serial number is trackable to the model year. I would not comment on the accuracy of the other models in comparison as I dont own any of them. But every Model 52 from the B's forward I have owned have been amazingly acurate and a good investment. Some of the 52's pre B model, can be good shooters too, but not as accurate or as comfortable to shoot, but they still hold their value and nice examples appreciate too.
And dont forget, all pre D models are repeaters .


I started a SH Win 52 thread here:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2623210&page=1

Good Luck,
DS

 

[Michael B]

Re: What would you do?

I drove up to the shop I have been talking to about these rifles. Looking over what they had, the Win. 52 was the one I would have chosen, but we couldn’t agree on terms. To tell the truth, I didn’t try very hard.
The shop has a good reputation, but we were far apart on our opinion of the gun. They said 95%. I wasn't even close to that. I would point out obvious problems it had, and the best they could do was say; “Sure, but consider how old it is.” I don’t care how old it is, the condition is what it is.
It was old. S/N 13xxx. Folding-leaf ladder sight. Fixed-post front sight.

Disappointed today, but the Win. 52 is now on my wish list.
Thanks to those who commented.
Michael B

 

[FrozenRopes]

Re: What would you do?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Morgan711</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You should be able to get a NEW CZ Varmint for around $425/450
http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-452-varmint/

</div></div>
Yup if you're looking for a bolt 22s the CZ are great out-of-the-box for the price.
Get a new CZ452 while they are still around or their newer model CZ455. They have traditional stocks. DON'T pay extra for the thumb hole when you don't want it.

 

[Furtaker_.223]

Re: What would you do?

100% would go CZ 452

 

[PRDRIVER]

Re: What would you do?

Depending on your price point, I would look closely at the CZ 452 or a Savage Mark II. You really can't go wrong with either one.

A new CZ 452 American can be had for around $350 and the 452 Varmint runs around $400.

I purchased a CZ 452 Scout to train my kids with and it is an excellent rifle. I would purchase a 452 for myself if I did not already have a Sako Quad.

From what I have read CZ's new 455 is somewhat hit or miss on accuracy out of the box. Unless you need the ability to change calibers, I would pick up a 452 while they are still around.

 

[Situation Normal]

Re: What would you do?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RMW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...From what I have read CZ's new 455 is somewhat hit or miss on accuracy out of the box...</div></div>

For what it's worth...

I got an email from Dan Lilja yesterday. He says that yes, they are working on a barrel for the 455 and that they should be available by the end of the year.

The CZ crew have been waiting for this.

 

[iShoot17]

Re: What would you do?

Check out RimFireCentral. They have abundance of information on all the rifles you are looking at.

Personally, I say go 452. I own four 452 Americans (.17HM2, .17HMR, .22LR, .22WMR) and they all shoot dimes/quarters at 100 yards for 3 shot groups. I have also owned a 452 Varmint in HM2 and it was the same way. I picked up my last two 452 Americans (LR and WMR) together for $600 shipped with a set of CZ rings. So they can be found for less than you are guessing.

If you'd like, I will help you find one of some of the forums! I have a few people who offered other Americans when I was searching for my .22LR that were looking to sell theirs.

Let me know if you'd like my help!

iShoot

 

[VYD]

Re: What would you do?

S A V A G E

Yes, I know, I am biased, lol.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: What would you do?

You need to read the rules and stop posting those 3 shot groups VYD. It really is getting old.

 

[VYD]

Re: What would you do?

sorry...btw, what rules? One can't post his field results more than once?

 

[PRDRIVER]

Re: What would you do?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Situation Normal</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RMW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...From what I have read CZ's new 455 is somewhat hit or miss on accuracy out of the box...</div></div>

For what it's worth...

I got an email from Dan Lilja yesterday. He says that yes, they are working on a barrel for the 455 and that they should be available by the end of the year.

The CZ crew have been waiting for this.

</div></div>

The Lilja barrel sounds like a great option. However, the Lilja barrel will most likely cost nearly as much as a CZ 455.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: What would you do?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VYD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">sorry...btw, what rules? One can't post his field results more than once? </div></div>

Sniper's Hide Group Shot Policy v2 2010

In an effort to increase awareness and increase proficiency in shooting, Sniper's Hide is modifying its group shot policy from this point forward. It is every members responsibility to understand and follow this policy in order to make the site a better place. This is not meant as an attack on anyone or any company based on their accuracy standards, merely a way to help each of us be a better shooter.

From this day forward I am deleting any 3 shot groups, and especially any groups that are groups within a group.

So here are the revised rules for posting groups on Sniper's Hide.


1. You must show the Entire target unedited.

2. Inside 300 yards you must post at least (4) 5 shot groups that can be identified on target or you may post (1) 10 shot group for record. I will also accept (6) 3 shot groups on the same paper or target.

3. Anything beyond 300 yards a minimum of 5 shots is required. Please note Rule #1 about the unedited target.

4. The group shot rules can be bypassed with a target using 10 or more 1/2" dots with one individual round on each dot for a minimum of 10 shots. You can download the Sniper's Hide Dot Drill Target from this site to use in place of showing a group that does not meet the above criteria. You can also show a group containing less than required if you have it as part of a video showing you actually shooting the group.

5. Shots on steel can only be used for demonstration purposes and not as part of an exhibition of group shooting. These images must be in conjunction with rifles, optics, etc... they cannot be standalone.

6. Groups shots must be within 2 MOA of the aiming point, otherwise I consider the shots a miss.


This is my effort to help everyone strive to be a better shooter and to shun mediocrity. At Sniper's Hide we want to set the standard of what shooting good groups means, and we encourage those who are practicing to display their groups especially if you are working on improving your skills.

Any group currently posted on the site will be grandfathered in, however moving forward I ask the membership to be vigilant in enforcing the group shot rules and regulations. However this does not give any member license to be combative or argumentative with another member simply because they failed to adhere to the guidelines proposed. I do not want a thread destroyed from a member simply because they did not understand this policy. I think you'll thank me in the long run and we'll help raise the bar for everyone.

 

[VYD]

Re: What would you do?

are you referring to rimfire competition threads at the top?

 

[Situation Normal]

Re: What would you do?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RMW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Lilja barrel sounds like a great option. However, the Lilja barrel will most likely cost nearly as much as a CZ 455. </div></div>

True. Though I still can't help but wonder...

As fun as the 10/22 is, I wonder if it would still have the following that it has now if it wasn't for the aftermarket support? We frequently see threads asking for a "recommended 22 with lots of room to upgrade" where we for the most part recommend the 10/22 based on the aftermarket requirement. If there wasn't an aftermarket barrel, would we still recommend it? Out of the box after all the 10/22 isn't all that accurate, but it can be made to be.

How many people shy away from the CZ line because of that same aftermarket requirement? Sure there is the Timney trigger, a couple of different bases, and a Boyds' Tacticool stock, but not much else yet. Never has there been a 920 barrel option either like the Savage has.

I think that the Lilja barrel is a much needed/big step forward for CZ.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: What would you do?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VYD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">are you referring to rimfire competition threads at the top? </div></div>
Here is the link: http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1844402
Maybe there are completely different rules in the rimfire section.

 

[Situation Normal]

Re: What would you do?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VYD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">are you referring to rimfire competition threads at the top? </div></div>
Here is the link: http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1844402
Maybe there are completely different rules in the rimfire section. </div></div>

Actually Lowlight repealled that rule. The post the you referenced was last updated on 5/31/10. Since then on 5/18/2011 (two months ago) Lowlight removed the "groups" portion of the rules from most of the forums.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <span style="font-weight: bold">Sniper's Hide Group Shot Policy v2 2010</span>

Removed because you can't handle it ...

</div></div>

Here's a link to the rules as displayed in the Equipment forum...

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1844400#Post1844400

 

[VYD]

Re: What would you do?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You need to read the rules and stop posting those 3 shot groups VYD. It really is getting old. </div></div>

The MAN himself PM-ed me that I can. Anything else?

 

[Situation Normal]

Re: What would you do?

Just because you can doesn't necessarily mean that you should.

Three shot groups do nothing to prove the accuracy of any firearm. If you're just shooting fewer rounds per group to eliminate the chance of throwing a flier round, then you're wasting your time by not accurately portraying your/your rifles capabilities.

Using logic like that, a single round/shot group at 300 yards will yield a 1/4" group at 300 yards all day long, although this doesn't quite accurately reflect those same capabilities either. That's why five shot groups are recommended.


<span style="font-style: italic"> Back on topic...</span>

Michael, have you decided on anything yet?

 

[VYD]

Re: What would you do?

That's a hellava way to get back on topic, LMAO! What exactly did I try to prove? If you assume something, you need to clarify. Go all the way. You can shoot 50 rounds per group if it makes you happy. No one is going to tell you that if you can, it doesn't mean you should...A flyer is usualy a shooter's error or inconsistency in ammo. So what reflects what is a big question. Need I say more?

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: What would you do?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VYD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You need to read the rules and stop posting those 3 shot groups VYD. It really is getting old. </div></div>

The MAN himself PM-ed me that I can. Anything else? </div></div>
In that case pardon me. I did not know you were on a first name basis with Lowlight. I stand corrected. That does not change the fact that your single 3 shot group means almost nothing in terms of accuracy expectancy from a Savage.

The OP did not include Savage in his choices but being a fan boy you could not resist showing off your 3 shot group that is quite crusty and suggesting he buy a Savage. How is that for off topic?
I do not know why Lowlight recanted the rule but it probably has something to do with whining from both sides of the isle. This is good news as it frees me up to post some groups as well. Thanks for helping to clarify the rules.

 

[Situation Normal]

Re: What would you do?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VYD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What exactly did I try to prove? If you assume something, you need to clarify. Go all the way. </div></div>

So posting a picture of a your three shot group and recommending the same rifle based on that group wasn't an attempt to sway the OP your direction? Were you not trying to use that picture as "proof" of your rifles ability? If you really want to impress the OP, then I suggest that you take my earlier recomendation of the single shot groups; you can't get much tighter groups than that. We might even all hail your rifle then as the rifle of a God.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VYD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> You can shoot 50 rounds per group if it makes you happy. No one is going to tell you that if you can, it doesn't mean you should... </div></div>

The point is that doing so would give a more accurate account of the rifles capabilities. No one is implying that you can't shoot three shot groups. What is being implied is that basing the performance on such groups is an inaccurate waste of time.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VYD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...A flyer is usualy a shooter's error or inconsistency in ammo…</div></div>

...and an inconsistent firing pin strike, excess torque applied to the forearm of the stock, rounds that don't chamber consistantly, a barrel not floated, an action needs bedded, excessive/not enough torque applied to the take-down screw, variations on barrel temperature,…

 

[PRDRIVER]

Re: What would you do?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Situation Normal</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RMW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Lilja barrel sounds like a great option. However, the Lilja barrel will most likely cost nearly as much as a CZ 455. </div></div>

True. Though I still can't help but wonder...

As fun as the 10/22 is, I wonder if it would still have the following that it has now if it wasn't for the aftermarket support? We frequently see threads asking for a "recommended 22 with lots of room to upgrade" where we for the most part recommend the 10/22 based on the aftermarket requirement. If there wasn't an aftermarket barrel, would we still recommend it? Out of the box after all the 10/22 isn't all that accurate, but it can be made to be.

How many people shy away from the CZ line because of that same aftermarket requirement? Sure there is the Timney trigger, a couple of different bases, and a Boyds' Tacticool stock, but not much else yet. Never has there been a 920 barrel option either like the Savage has.

I think that the Lilja barrel is a much needed/big step forward for CZ. </div></div>

Situation Normal -

I absolutely agree with you. Even with how great the 10/22 is on it's own, it would not be where it is today without the aftermarket support that it has (i.e. reliable high cap mags, barrels, triggers, stocks, etc.).

It is great to see the increase in the aftermarket support for the CZ rimfire rifles. I think it is also welcom news that Lilja will offer a barrel for the CZ 455 and I am sure many CZ owners will purchase them. I just wanted to point out that the cost for the barrel will most likely nearly be the cost of the CZ. That may make some individuals look at other options when they add up the cost of the Lilja barreled CZ.

 

[VYD]

Re: What would you do?

SN, outstanding man, God Bless. As far as mentioning CZ, yep, CZ will shoot just as tight. Been there done that. In this case, I will recommend CZ and don't look back. I hope I am on topic here...Out.