Fieldcraft Where to hit for instant stop?

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bluesman423

Private
Minuteman
Nov 29, 2009
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0
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#1
I am not sure where to ask this question so here goes....

Where would be the best place or places to hit a target in order to instantly incapacitate him? Meaning where in the head,brain, neck, central nervous system or other place would a hit instantly stop and drop a human target?

No, I am not a mall ninja or psycho. Just want to settle an argument with one and I have no knowledge such as this.
 
#2
Re: Where to hit for instant stop?

According to a friend who's a CMT, Top of the spine/base of the neck, will sever the spinal chord, meaning no more electrical signals/impulses will be sent to the rest of the body, so the "human target" will "drop like a sack of shit without even having the time to twitch his/hers fingers"


Answered?
 
#4
Re: Where to hit for instant stop?

If turned facing you think of your target area being a triangle. Two of the corners is the eyes and bottom corner is the center of the upper lip. This is the target area right thru into base of skull. Look at the anatony of the human head (cross sections).
 
#5
Re: Where to hit for instant stop?

Fill out your profile.

Your question has already been answered but, its called the medulla oblongata.
 
#8
Re: Where to hit for instant stop?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Walsh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shouldn't any hit from the heart up take out someone very quickly?</div></div>

does it for a deer? No.

Hollywood makes it look that way. A heart shot will have you bled out and dead in 15-20 seconds.
 
#9
Re: Where to hit for instant stop?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Walsh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shouldn't any hit from the heart up take out someone very quickly? </div></div>


no
 
#12
Re: Where to hit for instant stop?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pat M</div><div class="ubbcode-body">medulla oblongata </div></div>


Corect!!!!!!Only guarenteed switch to make all systems shut down instantly.....
 
#13
Re: Where to hit for instant stop?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KHOOKS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If turned facing you think of your target area being a triangle. Two of the corners is the eyes and bottom corner is the center of the upper lip. This is the target area right thru into base of skull. Look at the anatony of the human head (cross sections). </div></div>

Ditto. Other sources list a "T" with the top of the "T" being the eyes and the vertical line being the nose down to the mouth. The cervical spine is directly at the back of the throat through a very thin layer of tissue. As the target presents a side view, the cervical spine is just beneath the earlobe and the motor cortex is just above the ear. These are considered surgical targets for HRT shooters.

Visceral shots will not guarantee instant immobilization in a highly motivated or medicated person. As previously mentioned, large game can cover a large distance after having their hearts removed with a 220 grain round nose slug, and a human can muster more than enough will to squeeze a trigger in and HRT situation.

The effect of the impact depends on the ballistics of the weapon used, bullet construction, bullet performance. The human brain has a consistency similar to liver; it his mostly fat and water. Encased in the skull, it transmits shock through its mass very efficiently. A shot taken to the head in the areas listed will at the very least temporarily shut down all motor function; this is no guarantee that reflex action will not enable the firing of a weapon or release of a bomb trigger, etc; severance of the spinal cord at the base of the skull comes as close to that guarantee as possible.

The forehead area and back of the head are very thick. The skull is the thinnest at the temples. I only mention this as it is possible for a small caliber bullet to deflect off of the cranium if it contacts at an oblique angle; the closer the bullet presents to perpendicular to the bone at the entrance point, the better. The target areas in the front of the skull around the eyes and nose are very thin, and most of the skull in this area is empty space - sinuses, eye sockets. They present little resistance to penetration.

Any HRT shooter should download and study 3D animations of the human skull from sources such as this. The spine as it exits the base of the skull is the primary target; knowing where to find it in any presentation is crucial in making that one shot stop.

Yeah, I know, but it's what I do. The anatomy part, not the shooting part.
 
#15
Re: Where to hit for instant stop?

I've alway been taught that the "T Zone". From out sides of the eyes to tip of the nose in a triangular shape was proper placement to stop a threat. Depending on which way the face is turned depends on left or right side. Wanting the bullet to pass through into the base of the scull.
 
#16
Re: Where to hit for instant stop?

i heard that you should aim for the tip of the nose in a straight on forward facing head shot. that will sever the aforementioned medulla oblongata and he will dead before he stops hitting the ground.
 
#17
Re: Where to hit for instant stop?

Its been answered and covered (the T or triangle of the face) but I keep thinking of the Hollywood classic forehead shot... why dont they ever show how its really done in a movie? Guess a little makeup on the forehead is easier to look at for the masses vs a missing face... o'well, clean easy kills and infinite magazines... damn you Hollywood.
 
#18
Re: Where to hit for instant stop?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AXEMAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i heard that you should aim for the tip of the nose in a straight on forward facing head shot. that will sever the aforementioned medulla oblongata and he will dead before he stops hitting the ground. </div></div>

Yes. Between tip of the nose and top of the lip is ideal if the target is facing directly at you. Oblique presentations require adjustment of point of aim. With regards to the structure of the head, I can speak to that with firsthand experience as I cut on them every day. The densest bone structures are the forehead and the lower jaw, having a consistency on the order of solid oak 5-12mm thick. Either has the potential to deflect a small caliber bullet like a .223. The bone in the temple area and the upper jaw ranges from 2-3 mm thick to eggshell thin with the consistency of balsa wood to styrofoam (no joke). The skull balances atop the cervical spine to minimize muscle tension required to keep your 12 lb noggin up. In profile, the cervical vertabrae are just below the level of the earlobe. There is also a strip of motor cortex on either side just above the ear about 1 inch high and three inches long centered on the ear. Primary target is the cervical spine, secondary target it the motor cortex.
 
#19
Re: Where to hit for instant stop?

i saw how they did the fx for the forehead shot. round disc with monofiliment attached is lightly glued to the forehead, covered with make up putty then skintone matched. pull the string, pop off the disc, leave a dark colored circle. add karo syrup & food coloring if you want blood to drip. cool stuff. saw an interview with a cop that had a 12ga and was facing an armed hostage taker. he could get close enough so he switched to a slug and took the shot when it came. thru the face at about the nose area. guys ass hit his heels, hostage unharmed


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: He_Shoot _Me</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just show the enemy a nude photo of my x-girlfriend. It's instant death, guaranteed.

Oh the horror of it all....
-Pat </div></div>

i thought this was shanksters post, lol
 
#21
Re: Where to hit for instant stop?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jayko</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fill out your profile.

Your question has already been answered but, its called the medulla oblongata. </div></div>





what he said...........
 
#22
Re: Where to hit for instant stop?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Walsh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shouldn't any hit from the heart up take out someone very quickly?</div></div>

The clinical definition of death is the heart stops beating. High velocity rifle bullet through heart = No intact heart left to beat = Clinical Death. However the human body has around five quarts of blood. Figure half of that's oxygenated and cells can use that oxygen until it's gone. If you've ever seen anybody pass out in a choke hold, they didn't go out immediately do to this very fact and if a the heart stops beating they still can be conscious and mobile for a little while.

And even a medula oblongata is not, as already mentioned, a guaranteed instant shot. There is a small chance that instead of cutting the nerve impulses to the muscles off that it can instead trigger the nerves injured by the shot to send an uncommanded nerve impulse to the muscles. However, that is much less likely then if you put a 168gr. Sierra Matchking through someone cerebrum where the nerves function is to actually start and send nerve impulses.
 
#23
Re: Where to hit for instant stop?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LS6TT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">should this really be answered here? i mean use google. </div></div>

Concern about appearances are understandable, but this topic is covered in a number of texts you can pick up at Borders or Amazon starting with Plaster's book on snipercraft. It's not a dark secret or dim mak ninja lore, just simple physiology that is taught and applied daily in law enforcement and military tactical training. Some members of the Hide community are LEO and military, thus this is a meaningful topic to those that deal with these questions, though it's probably old news to the pros. The original poster made it clear this was to settle a bet with another person and was not openly advertising his intent to use this information with ill intent. At any rate, your concern is well taken, but this seems to have been a thoughtful and informative thread covering information which is readily available in the public domain.

Respect,

Wes

PS FWIW, the base of the skull is my favorit target for large game when I'm close enough. The collapse where they stand and probably don't know what hit them. Heart shots, in my experience, usually leads to a pretty dramatic reaction until the animal is out of blood. With my .270, I use 135 SMKs to make instant and clean kills on large game in this manner.
 
#24
Re: Where to hit for instant stop?

Can you turn them off like a light, yes,...can the dirtbag still kill the hostage thereafter,... bet your ass they can.
If the guy your fixing to do, is useing a release trigger the hostage is fucked.

Know all that can go wrong, because the Grand Jury will want to know, why you did not know what to look for.
 
#25
Re: Where to hit for instant stop?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kilosierra</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Walsh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shouldn't any hit from the heart up take out someone very quickly?</div></div>

The clinical definition of death is the heart stops beating. High velocity rifle bullet through heart = No intact heart left to beat = Clinical Death. However the human body has around five quarts of blood. Figure half of that's oxygenated and cells can use that oxygen until it's gone. If you've ever seen anybody pass out in a choke hold, they didn't go out immediately do to this very fact and if a the heart stops beating they still can be conscious and mobile for a little while.

And even a medula oblongata is not, as already mentioned, a guaranteed instant shot. There is a small chance that instead of cutting the nerve impulses to the muscles off that it can instead trigger the nerves injured by the shot to send an uncommanded nerve impulse to the muscles. However, that is much less likely then if you put a 168gr. Sierra Matchking through someone cerebrum where the nerves function is to actually start and send nerve impulses. </div></div>

Average blood oxygenation is 99% oxygenated hemoglobin. Cessation of heartbeat, and cessation of circulation of the oxygenated blood, causes the blood flow to stagnate where it stopped. The brain consumes the lion's share of oxygen and unconsciousness generally follows within 8 to 20 seconds of cessation of bloodflow, but willfullness and motor coordination still exists. Being choked out (done that a couple of times, BJJ) is a weird silky decline into sudden unconsciousness that hits you suddenly and unexpectedly and takes up to an hour to recover from completely. The other part about hitting the medulla and triggering an unconscious reflex is applicable, but the entire motor system will shut down simultaneously, i.e., the "bad guy" begins to sloch, fall, his/her limbs drop, and gun wielding hands move off target; but as you say, there is still a chance, however small, of a discharge of a weapon. Dead Man triggers are a perpetrator's insurance policy against snipers and as you say require different tactics. But in answer to the original post, the base of the skull is the desired primary target, heart shots won't stop a person instantly from continuing mischief, and HRT situations call for extensive scenario training.
For instance, you are the tactical marksman of an HRT team called in to an active scene with a perpetrator holding a hostage at gunpoint claiming an explosives belt on himself and/or the hostage and a dead man trigger. How does your team handle that?
 
#26
Re: Where to hit for instant stop?

Centermass in the Chest. Its a bigger target and has more vitals. Such as both lungs, heart, spine, spinal cord, arorta (the biggest artery in the human body). Plus with the hydrostatic shock, it all goes to mush mostly.
 
#27
Re: Where to hit for instant stop?

The OP asks a viable question simply answered by a study of the anatomy of the target whether deer, squirrels or humans. That being said all critters are 3 dimensional, what may be viable in a frontal shot may not be in a transverse shot.

The question should be directed for an instantaneous CNS stop, in which case there are very few "light switches". In the case of most critters, the maker designed them to protect the vital parts. Poking a boolet into the head doesn't automatically result in an immediate stop, there is a lot of "dead space" in the skull. There is also a whole lot of wrapping that most folks don't consider. If you knock your knuckles against your head you might A$$uME that the skull is just under the surface. Nothing could be farther from the truth, there is roughly 3/4" of skin and muscle between your head and the skull no matter what it feels or sounds like. The spinal column, likewise is not where you might expect it to be.

Granted high velocity rounds "should" create a sufficient temporary wound cavity that should disrupt/dissect or dismember the entire neck or head. This has been proven false by a great many people walking around today with bullet holes in their necks or heads. Movement of the particular aiming point is also germain to the conversation in that some parts of the anatomy move independently and with some randomness.

If I had to "stop" a "critter" without regard for its suffering, I would be quite content to stick a bullet in the pelvis. First it will anchor the critter, second there is no first aid that will stop it from bleeding out as two of the main blood pipes for the body run through it for any critter with hind legs on this planet. Additionally, because it is in the visceral cavity hydrostatic shock is a more significant factor.

If I had to "instantly incapacitate" a "critter" I would be inclined to stick a boolet in the shoulder/neck junction as there are three major pipes (air and blood) as well as the central wiring harness that can be reached at that point. If in a full side profile this shot is not preferred (shoulder is in the way), however a full side profile presents the largest target of the main brain housing.

Again, know your anatomy.

An old Gunny once said, "Corpsmen are the most dangerous shooters on the battle field. They know just where to shoot you."

Cheers,

Doc
 
#28
Re: Where to hit for instant stop?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1ZNUF</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LS6TT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">should this really be answered here? i mean use google. </div></div>

Concern about appearances are understandable, but this topic is covered in a number of texts you can pick up at Borders or Amazon starting with Plaster's book on snipercraft. It's not a dark secret or dim mak ninja lore, just simple physiology that is taught and applied daily in law enforcement and military tactical training. Some members of the Hide community are LEO and military, thus this is a meaningful topic to those that deal with these questions, though it's probably old news to the pros. The original poster made it clear this was to settle a bet with another person and was not openly advertising his intent to use this information with ill intent. At any rate, your concern is well taken, but this seems to have been a thoughtful and informative thread covering information which is readily available in the public domain.

Respect,

Wes

PS FWIW, the base of the skull is my favorit target for large game when I'm close enough. The collapse where they stand and probably don't know what hit them. Heart shots, in my experience, usually leads to a pretty dramatic reaction until the animal is out of blood. With my .270, I use 135 SMKs to make instant and clean kills on large game in this manner. </div></div>

Oh I know, but Im not sure if anybody here wants to take liability, we dont know this guy from adam and its a hell of a question to ask. Thats why I said hit up google.
 
#29
Re: Where to hit for instant stop?

To answer the OP: use google or wikipedia or any other means of actual data.

To the forum members: as a group, this is not something we should discuss on a forum unless it is hunting related, you may disagree personally with that statement. However, this is the type of information which when discussed in a public forum, can shed a very negative light on the members...wink, wink, nudge, nudge...say no more, sir, say no more.
 
#30
Re: Where to hit for instant stop?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bluesman423</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Where would be the best place or places to hit a target in order to instantly incapacitate him? </div></div>

Pistol? - Don't count on it. Braincases are hardened. Heart take take a hell of a beating. Spines are pretty small when the body is moving. Pelvis is pretty tough too.

Highpower Rifle? - Absolutely. Penetrate the braincase and they will go down. Why do we aim for the T-Box? Less chance of deflection and greater chance of penetration. Aim small, miss small. But anywhere inside the cranial vault will do.

Hostage rescue procedures and tactics violate OPSEC and those I don't discuss on an open forum.
 
#31
Re: Where to hit for instant stop?

I'll toss in an experience, rather gruesome, very, very sad. During my residency I was on ER rotation and an elderly woman was brought in breathing but non-responsive. She had a rather unremarkable wound on her forehead where her daughter had presumed that she had fallen and hit her head against the corner of a table, and the wound was consistent with that cause. Her neuro exam was unusual, however, and off to radiology she goes. The pics come back, and in the base of her cranium was what I recognized as a 9mm FMJ bullet, in pretty good shape.

Apparently the woman's husband had tertiary syphilis, which caused mental degeneration and dementia. Turns out he also owned a Browning High Power 9mm pistol. For some reason he shot his wife. The bullet entered the thick frontal cortex and then ran a racetrack around the inside of the cranium, shredding her brain irreparably; she was living only on her brainstem. Utterly tragic.

This is my only experience with a firearm headwound, thankfully. I relate it not for shock or "cool value" or to hold myself out as some expert in this area. I relate it for the use of LEOs and military personnel who may glean some information from it, and mods can decide if it should stay posted or whether they wish to strike it.

Regards,

Wes
 
#32
Re: Where to hit for instant stop?

Speaking of being able to live through a brain injury, not too long ago, I was dispatched to a suicide. The victim apparently had taken a .38spl, placed it against his forehead, and pulled the trigger. You would assume he would have been DRT. Negative. The victim was unsuccesful at his attempt, and was able to reacquire the pistol, and placed it in mouth. That did it. I am not trying to make light of the situation, but just because you hit the melon, doesn't necessarily mean a quick ending. Now, I'm sure the result could have possibly been different if there were a high powered rifle involved, instead of a pistol. I personally know 2 different people who have been shot in the head and are still alive and live a normal life.
 
#34
Re: Where to hit for instant stop?

Guys,
My first question to this. Why does Bluesman really wanna know this? After 3 posts? One has to wonder.
As for the people on med field. I'm sure you all have some stories you can tell about head injuries. I myself have heard a few. some of which i care not to mention. One head "let's call it injury" was a GSW. To the side of the head severed both optic nerves. Patient was alive and will be left blind for rest of his life.
Before anyone says must have been a small caliber. Let me just say. it was a shotgun.

SOTA
 
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