Which CZ

[Bluejazz]

I am in the market for a good 22LR.
I have a savage 17HMR, but want to try a 22, and want to also make it a CZ, but know nothing about which model to go with.
I have read alittle bit about the Varmint barrel, and that seems like a good way to go, but also looking at the 455 LUX as I understand that they are all switching over to that receiver.
Anyway, any suggestions on a good CZ 22LR model and the reason for the choice would be appreciated.
This will be used for small varmint hunting, squirrel and rabbit, and also used for practice shooting on paper out to 250-300 yards.
Discriptions of your current rigs might be helpful as well, to determine what I would need to get to 300 yards.
Thanks for the help.
I am new to the rimfire section, but it might turn into my favorite forum.

 

[dlc356]

Re: Which CZ

I have a 452 Varmint and love it. I'd like to have an American too but haven't been able to justify it... Other stuff has bumped it down the list.

The reason I like those two models is the stock design. Some of the CZ's have a humpback looking stock that I just can't get used to. I don't think you can go wrong with any of them though.

 

[TP4]

Re: Which CZ

If you are carrying the gun in the field and taking shots off-hand or from a knee, I would get the 452 American. If its main use is from a bench or bipod, get the Varmint. The American balances better and points more naturally than the Varmint.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Which CZ

It depends on what you want to do with it. I'm a CMP GSM MI, and do a lot of Vintage Military Rifle Matches. To keep in practice using the sights simular to those on most VMRs, I went with the CZ 452 Military Trainer. The sights are set from 25 to 200 meters (25 meter incurments). Highly accurate. I'd think it would be a great rabbit gun if one didn't want to go the scope route, although you can put scopes on it using the normal rimfire mounting systems.

Regardless I don't think you can go wrong with the CZ rimfire guns.

 

[offroadr1]

Re: Which CZ

i have am american, varmit and lux. i tend to use the varmit most often, but i have only had the american for a short time.

 

[Bluejazz]

Re: Which CZ

I did see the military trainer on their site, and it might be a good option. However, I don't know how accurate I could be with it on small game. This rig will be used mostly for shooting prone and practice, but want to be able to go hunting with it as well, and maybe even use on decoying crows. We have a crow season here in IOWA. My 17HMR is a thumbhole stock, but don't want to go that route on the 22LR.
What about the differences in the 455 and 452 receivers?

 

[42769vette]

Re: Which CZ

i have a cz 452 varmint that i absolutly love. with a dip 25 moa base and a optic with 54ish moa travel i can get to 260yds.

 

[Dylan in AZ]

Re: Which CZ

I have read that the 455 series has had alot of issues mainly with accuracy and not standing up to CZ's reputation that their 452 line has brought them. The difference between the two models is that the 452 model accomidates all rimfire cartridges and not just one. At least that's what I have read.

I have never seen the military trainer model either so I would greatly appreciate someone posting pics or links to someone who carries them.

Personally I cannot stand the curved stock that appears on most f the CZ line of rimfire rifles. If I ever had to buy one the stock would get replaced before firing the thing. This is why I would get the 452 Varmint model. Simply because it just looks good, has a reputation for being an amazing shooter, and has a heavy barrel. The comb on these stocks are pretty straight too, so that's another plus.

And for shooting at the longer ranges you're going to probably need a +MOA base. I would but a unit from DIP personally. Add the scope of your choice and rings to fit and you will have one heck of a rifle.

Good luck,
-Dylan

 

[M855]

Re: Which CZ

I have a 99 vintage 452,with a trip to ace hardware and 60 cents you can have a great trigger ymmv

 

[Longguns]

Re: Which CZ

I have the 453 Varmint and really like it. If you want to hunt with it you can as it carries well. If you want to shoot off the bench you can as it really shoots. I like the set trigger on the 453. I really don't think you can go wrong with any of the CZ's. Don't know about the 455's either, Have only seen pictures and not actual rifles in action. The 453 Varmint also good looking wood on it. Good Luck on your decision.

 

[offroadr1]

Re: Which CZ

looks like the 455 is set up to be a switch barrel. i liked that concept, but i havent heard about accuracy problems yet, but i also dont know anyone that has one. i was planning on picking one up later this year.

 

[slothlacrosse]

Re: Which CZ

i bought a CZ452 Varmint a couple months ago and had it out for the first time this weekend.

i'm running an SWFA 10x42 and CZ 30mm rings and was able to get it dialed in @ 200y

 

[XTR]

Re: Which CZ

I strongly suggest that you go over to the CZ/Brno forum at Rimfirecentral.com and ask some questions.

As for the Lux, only if you are going to shoot iron sites. A 22lr doesn't get the benefit of better velocity from a longer barrel, I think there is a study out there somewhere that shows that it maxes at about 12 inches. The long barrel on the Lux just gives you a longer sight radius for iron sights, and often a pretty piece of walnut.

I have a 453 Varmint. I like it. See pics in this thread..

I don't think you will be unhappy with the 453's, the 452 American or the 452 varmint.

There is also a thread here that talks about the differences in the 452 and 453.

One other thing you can do is look for a scout if you can get it really cheap. (There was a place that had them in pink stocks for about $200 a few months ago. I think the rimfire central guys bought them all in 2 days.) It is just a 452 action with a 16" barrel in a short stock. Change the stock and viola! you have an American with a 16" barrel. (really good plan if you want to get it threaded and put on a can.)

 

[Bluejazz]

Re: Which CZ

Thanks for everyones responses.
I am going with either the 452 or 453 Varmint.
Without having to start a new thread, I have a quick question I am sure can be answered very easily.
If I go later with a Boyd tacticool stock which will be easier to bed. The 452 only has one action screw, so I am assuming the 453 w/ 2 action screws would be the way to go. The 453 also has a set trigger which could be nice extra.
Any thoughts on this?

 

[Dylan in AZ]

Re: Which CZ

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bluejazz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for everyones responses.
I am going with either the 452 or 453 Varmint.
Without having to start a new thread, I have a quick question I am sure can be answered very easily.
If I go later with a Boyd tacticool stock which will be easier to bed. The 452 only has one action screw, so I am assuming the 453 w/ 2 action screws would be the way to go. The 453 also has a set trigger which could be nice extra.
Any thoughts on this?</div></div>

The 452 has a foreward action screw and a barrel screw. The 453 has a foreward action screw and a "floating"-ish type of thing going on with the rear action screw. It's hard to explain; click on XTR's thread and see for yourself: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I have a 453 Varmint. I like it. See pics in this thread..

</div></div>

As for the trigger, I have read they are all sub-par but the 452's is very easy to work over and make it sing while I read conflicting stories about the 453's triggers. To me, considering the 452 line is supposedly going to be discontinued (due to the 455) and the price will increase, the 452 seems like a no-brainer to me.

 

[XTR]

Re: Which CZ

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bluejazz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for everyones responses.
I am going with either the 452 or 453 Varmint.
Without having to start a new thread, I have a quick question I am sure can be answered very easily.
If I go later with a Boyd tacticool stock which will be easier to bed. The 452 only has one action screw, so I am assuming the 453 w/ 2 action screws would be the way to go. The 453 also has a set trigger which could be nice extra.
Any thoughts on this? </div></div>

The Boyds tacticool is inletted for the 452, it should drop in. If you look at my thread you will see what I did to solve that for a 453. Also there is a thread on rimfirecentral with pics of the before and after where someone went a different route from mine and actually did the inletting for the 453 instead of just taking a dremmel and a drill to it like I did.

 

[berzerkrobot]

Re: Which CZ

I wouldnt expect to get any reasonable accuracy at 300yds with a 22LR round - it will be going subsonic. 2-250yds is its max IMO.

I have a (discontinued) cz452 in the tacticool stock and I love it.

 

[Dylan in AZ]

Re: Which CZ

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: berzerkrobot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wouldnt expect to get any reasonable accuracy at 300yds with a 22LR round - it will be going subsonic. 2-250yds is its max IMO.

I have a (discontinued) cz452 in the tacticool stock and I love it.</div></div>
That's the point behind subsonic ammo.......

Look in the 100-300 yard comp threads and see Carter Mayfield and BERGA's 300 yard targets and be amazed. They both shoot awesomly at 300 yards with their 22's, BERGA actually even shoots without a front or rear support. He shoots prone with a sling and nothing else. In fact, this is how many Palma shooters train in their off-seasons. 300 yards with a 22lr is very good training aid for the 1000 yard iron sight sling shooters. Just proof that you can push a 22lr much farther than conventional though would have you believe. These little rounds may not look like much, but don't underestimate them. Some guys here are actually shooting at 400+ with theirs, albeit not very accuratly but contacting steel none the less.

 

[berzerkrobot]

Re: Which CZ

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TerrorInTheShadows</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: berzerkrobot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wouldnt expect to get any reasonable accuracy at 300yds with a 22LR round - it will be going subsonic. 2-250yds is its max IMO.

I have a (discontinued) cz452 in the tacticool stock and I love it.</div></div>
That's the point behind subsonic ammo.......

Look in the 100-300 yard comp threads and see Carter Mayfield and BERGA's 300 yard targets and be amazed. They both shoot awesomly at 300 yards with their 22's, BERGA actually even shoots without a front or rear support. He shoots prone with a sling and nothing else. In fact, this is how many Palma shooters train in their off-seasons. 300 yards with a 22lr is very good training aid for the 1000 yard iron sight sling shooters. Just proof that you can push a 22lr much farther than conventional though would have you believe. These little rounds may not look like much, but don't underestimate them. Some guys here are actually shooting at 400+ with theirs, albeit not very accuratly but contacting steel none the less. </div></div>

But with subsonic are you going to kill an animal at that range? He mentioned he plans to shoot critters, so I figured it would be high velocity stuff... maybe only at closer distances tho?

 

[Dylan in AZ]

Re: Which CZ

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bluejazz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
But with subsonic are you going to kill an animal at that range? He mentioned he plans to shoot critters, so I figured it would be high velocity stuff... maybe only at closer distances tho?</div></div> I took it as he wanted to shoot small varmints at short range, and also shoot long range on paper. So I feel he needs one ammo, subsonics. If I misinterpreted then say so. But varmint at short range will be down (hopefully) with any ammo, but like you said, supersonic will go transonic by the time it gets to the longer ranges which causes tumblers and that's not accurate at all. So yeah, if you plan to shoot varmint at the longer ranges then you can probably forget it and pull out your 17HMR or a small centerfire if you have one.

-Dylan

 

[berzerkrobot]

Re: Which CZ

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TerrorInTheShadows</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bluejazz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
But with subsonic are you going to kill an animal at that range? He mentioned he plans to shoot critters, so I figured it would be high velocity stuff... maybe only at closer distances tho?</div></div> I took it as he wanted to shoot small varmints at short range, and also shoot long range on paper. So I feel he needs one ammo, subsonics. If I misinterpreted then say so. But varmint at short range will be down (hopefully) with any ammo, but like you said, supersonic will go transonic by the time it gets to the longer ranges which causes tumblers and that's not accurate at all. So yeah, if you plan to shoot varmint at the longer ranges then you can probably forget it and pull out your 17HMR or a small centerfire if you have one.

-Dylan </div></div>

+1

totally agree

 

[Bluejazz]

Re: Which CZ

Dylan,
You are correct in that I will use the 22LR for varmints at short range and paper at long range.
I however did not realize I need to learn more about the ammo to use. I just assume it was all the same for a 22LR. Looks like more search and reading required on the subject.

 

[Bluejazz]

Re: Which CZ

XTR,
I read your thread on bedding your 453.
So, would you say it would have been easier to do a bedding job on a 452 instead of the 453?

 

[berzerkrobot]

Re: Which CZ

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bluejazz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dylan,
You are correct in that I will use the 22LR for varmints at short range and paper at long range.
I however did not realize I need to learn more about the ammo to use. I just assume it was all the same for a 22LR. Looks like more search and reading required on the subject. </div></div>

22LR rounds that start off supersonic become subsonic very quickly compaired to larger caliber rounds, and when they transition to subsonic there is a dramatic loss in accuracy. If this transition is avoided by having a round that is subsonic at the muzzle then you do not have this issue. The down side (IMO) is that you have to more greatly alter your trajectory to get your subsonic rounds to the target. You are in a sence lobbing your rounds out at the longer ranges. Of course for paper targets it probably wont matter, but expect to have dope sheets for both subsonic and high velocity rounds if you want to hit stuff

 

[XTR]

Re: Which CZ

Depending on your application there are a couple of hollow point standard velocities that may fit the bill for both range and small critters. The SK Jagd std hollow points grouped right at or less than 1moa for me at 50 yds.

 

[Dylan in AZ]

Re: Which CZ

The problem with hunting with a 22lr is that the rounds don't expand even if they're hollow points. And the little round doesn't transfer any notable amount of energy to consider the high velocity ammo a step above the subsonics. 22lr pretty much just punches holes into objects from what I've seen and that leads me to believe that if you're going to shoot small, thin skinned animals at short and/or long range with a 22lr, then you really aren't going to see any performance gain by using supersonics even if they didn't go transonic in flight. Now considering they do, and you don't get much/any performance gain from using high velocity ammo, it is counterproductive IMHO to use anything but subsonics.

If I'm incorrect, please somebody step in and correct me.

I guess I'll have to conduct some experiments for the benefit of the Sniper's Hide Rimfire Section
and all of it's users. I know tere has been a thread on lethality of the 22lr but I would like to prove/disprove some of my other thoughts/theories/anomolies through some testing.

-Dylan

 

[XTR]

Re: Which CZ

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TerrorInTheShadows</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The problem with hunting with a 22lr is that the rounds don't expand even if they're hollow points. And the little round doesn't transfer any notable amount of energy to consider the high velocity ammo a step above the subsonics. 22lr pretty much just punches holes into objects from what I've seen and that leads me to believe that if you're going to shoot small, thin skinned animals at short and/or long range with a 22lr, then you really aren't going to see any performance gain by using supersonics even if they didn't go transonic in flight. Now considering they do, and you don't get much/any performance gain from using high velocity ammo, it is counterproductive IMHO to use anything but subsonics.

If I'm incorrect, please somebody step in and correct me.

I guess I'll have to conduct some experiments for the benefit of the Sniper's Hide Rimfire Section
and all of it's users. I know tere has been a thread on lethality of the 22lr but I would like to prove/disprove some of my other thoughts/theories/anomolies through some testing.

-Dylan </div></div>

Ok, you're wrong.

This is one of those how I did it stories, but here goes. Growing up on the coast in South Ga my family owned several hundred acres. My brother and I hunted from fall till spring every yr. If we were home and it was daylight, we were out hunting squirrels, and about anything else that moved in the woods and at night it was 'coons, 'possum, (was legal with a 6v light). All with 22lr, I started with an old Winchester 290 and he had a Nylon 66. Later when I was in the Navy in Idaho I switched from the 290 to a 10/22 (ser# on my 10/22 dates to '83) for bunny blasting.

I can tell you that if you are planning to clean/eat it a HP tears a squirrel all to hell inside compared to a solid, and if you are collecting pelts ('coons) you can tear nickel sized exit hole with a HP, or ruin a pelt with a rip if you hit one in the side of the face and it exits at a low angle and rips the hide. Not what you are looking for shooting for pelts.

(Then there was the old man that worked for my father that would eat anything we shot other than a mocking bird, because if you eat a mocking bird you tell everything you know. That pretty much gave us license to shoot anything and everything that moved)

Shooting squirrels we almost always shot HPs, pelts were solids. Then there was the hawk with the broken wing I nursed for 4 months, I shot with solids for him so he had to tear it up, not me.

Stingers, what a waste of time and money. POI was way off from the standard HV stuff we shot, or they couldn't group on a grapefruit, I don't know which and they effectively explode on impact. If you hit it they'll kill it, but what ever it was isn't worth eating or skinning.

Now, all that said, I'll wager all of those shots were inside of 30 yds, shooting up into the trees.

 

[Dylan in AZ]

Re: Which CZ

Well said, I stand corrected

I know what I'm doing next time I get out for some squirrels or bunnies

 

[XTR]

Re: Which CZ

Take two 2 liter soda bottles, fill them with water, leave the tops off and shoot them with your 22, actually you may need 4 bottles. If you shoot from far enough back (say 25 yds) a 22lr shouldn't make it all the way through one, if it does it will barely penetrate the 2nd one. If you put one behind the other you'll definitely catch the round in the 2nd one.

If you shoot solids you catch solids, HPs you catch the base and a bunch of fragments.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: Which CZ

+1 to everything XTR said.
I had a very similar childhood except my coon and possums were mostly trapped. My uncle is still to this day a raw fur buyer and I have worked many hours in his fur barn helping skin and process all types of furbearers. High velocity hollow points have turned many coons into collar grade pelts more times than I can count. I have seen plenty of animals that looked like they died of lead poisoning or froze to death from the holes in their hide shot with hollow points. Hollow points have a greater wallop but nothing trumps shot placement. The best policy with a 22lr is to place the shot directly in an animals hard drive. They do make tools to flatten the meplat of your favorite match ammo and it will increase the lethality.

 

[gjantzer]

Re: Which CZ

I have 1 CZ varmint in 453 with the set trigger, 2 CZ varmints in 452 and CZ American. The American stock is very difficult to keep from canting while shooting off of a front rest. The varmints hold level much better at the range. The american would definitely be more comfortable for walking around and taking small game. I really like the 453's set trigger until i got better at shooting. I was actually able to shoot better groups without the set trigger........that is what caused me to buy the 452 varmints. I installed a YoDave trigger kit (although buying a cheap spring from Ace Hardware is cheaper) and love my 452 triggers! Predicting your own hindsight is difficult......so take it from others......there are more people out there that know CZs well that are looking for 452's than there are people looking for 453's. The only exception is a 453 in .17hm2.....if you see it, buy it! It is rare and a collectors item.

Quick summary? Buy the 452 Varmint and install a yodave trigger kit or spring from Ace Hardware. Buy a striker spring and new action screws from jnpgunsprings.com, float the barrel and enjoy that little rifle for the rest of your life.

www.budsgunshop.com
www.czcustom.com

czcustom is $400 ($6 cheaper than Buds) and is free shipping and handling to your ffl. I have heard that buds is free shipping but charges a handling fee for some reason. czcustom has a good reputation at www.rimfirecentral.com and that says a lot!

good luck.