Rifle Scopes Which Horus?

[ShhDontMove]

I've searched the forums but havent found the answer I'm looking for. I'm looking at buying a scope and I know for sure I want a MIL/MIL scope. I'm pretty sure I want a Horus reticle. The ability to do nothing but holds is pretty badass, and I like the how they break down each mil to such a small degree. My main concern is clutter with viewing a target. I plan on getting a scope with at least 20X magnification, and I plan on doing mostly target shooting out to 1k with a .308. Has anyone found it any harder to spot targets within 1000 meters with the Horus reticles vs a standard mil dot scope? I like the H59 reticle the most, but am up to suggestions. My main concern with choosing a reticle is I want one that makes MIL'ing a target easy, and has a decent amount of reference points for windage and elevation.

 

[mkollman74]

Lots of folks here do not like the Horus reticles, so be prepared for some possible comments along those lines. I have two scopes with H59 reticles and like them a good deal. I do not have any issue spotting shots through them. Was out around 1245-ish a couple/few weeks back and I spotted my misses and hits with relative ease considering the other conditions.

Another option for you to consider would be a MSR reticle. I spent a bit of time looking through a demo Kahles that had one at a recent match. Nice reticle.

 

[Armored Transport]

I like the H-59 in my Bushy HDMR. I would LOVE to get behind the MSR but as of yet there isn't an offering in my $ range. I run a Sightron S-III in 8-32x56 with the LRMOA reticle on a 300RUM that has that nice center dot that the H-59 has. The Sightron is alot of bang for your buck. 2nd FP MOA scopes are a good option for known range target shooting. I also use a Nightforce BR on a 300 Lapua target gun with the NP-R1 in 8-32x56 that is a quality scope/reticle combo that won't break the bank either. Best of luck........

 

[ShhDontMove]

Thanks for the feedback guys and suggesting the MSR, it's a nice lookin reticle for sure.

 

[redx]

I like the 59 as well

 

[steve123]

You won't have any problems spotting shots.

It's critical that I see where my shots go in the long range match I shoot because we engage each steel twice. Also measuring with the H59 retical down to the .1 mil is a advantage.

 

[Graham]

Which Horus?

My main concern with choosing a reticle is I want one that makes MIL'ing a target easy, and has a decent amount of reference points for windage and elevation.

Learn how to use a Mil dot reticle. That is, unless you plan to only miss low.

 

[buffybuster]

Which Horus?

None. A solution looking for a problem.

The Horus reticle concept is better for Novice to Intermediate level precision shooter. But not necessary or even beneficial to an Intermediate or Advanced marksman.

The MSR, G2MD, G2MDR, G2XR, USO-GAP, USO-MPR, P4F, etc all work very well.

Spend more time and less money, learning your equipment.

 

[supercorndogs]

i have a tremor 2 i like. it is a little cluttered. i thought it was stupid until i started using it.

 

[ShhDontMove]

Learn how to use a Mil dot reticle. That is, unless you plan to only miss low.

I know how to use a Mil dot reticle, but the standard mil dot reticle used back in the day is old technology, with modern day reticles you can break down MIL'ing to more precise fractions in a short amount of time. I'm not buying a rangefinder anytime soon so I want to mil out targets as accurately as possible. You should check out some of the "fancier" mil dot scopes that break down a single MIL to precise amounts. For instance would be the MSR reticle recommended by others.

Which Horus?

None. A solution looking for a problem.

The Horus reticle concept is better for Novice to Intermediate level precision shooter. But not necessary or even beneficial to an Intermediate or Advanced marksman.

The MSR, G2MD, G2MDR, G2XR, USO-GAP, USO-MPR, P4F, etc all work very well.

Spend more time and less money, learning your equipment.

And could you elaborate how the HORUS reticle is for novices and not advantageous for more experienced shooters? I'm trying to pick a reticle based on actual advice, not a few negative words that appear biased. And Im going to have to spend money one way or another, why buy cheaper equipment when I can pick something that will keep me satisfied for years once I become an "advanced marksman" as you put it?

 

[buffybuster]

To the OP,

You're started four threads on this forum:

"Which Savage do I buy"
"Sell me on the 6.5 Creedmoor"
"Which quick release mount"
"Which Horus"

We (I and others on the forum) have tried to give you SOUND advice that is 100% accurate and effective. And each time you have rebuffed it:

I dont want to sound like a jerk but unless you've owned a Savage rifle I dont want to hear your advice on this topic.

I know a lot of people don't like to get out of their comfort zone and expand their knowledge and because so won't use QD mounts, fortunately I'm not that ignorant.

Now this:

I know how to use a Mil dot reticle, but the standard mil dot reticle used back in the day is old technology,

I'm trying to pick a reticle based on actual advice, not a few negative words that appear biased.

The advice you have received thus far has not "biased", It is what works. However since it doesn't agree with your preconceived notions you don't want to accept it. If you do not like the answers, then you should not have asked the questions and learn from your own experience versus learning from ours.

It is clear to me that YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, but refuse to listen to others who have Been There and Done That.

Regarding your Horus inquiry (search is your friend): http://www.snipershide.com/shooting.../112263-need-help-horus-reticle-question.html

Good Luck, I'm done.

 

[Graham]

Which Horus?

I know how to use a Mil dot reticle, but the standard mil dot reticle used back in the day is old technology, with modern day reticles you can break down MIL'ing to more precise fractions in a short amount of time. I'm not buying a rangefinder anytime soon so I want to mil out targets as accurately as possible. You should check out some of the "fancier" mil dot scopes that break down a single MIL to precise amounts. For instance would be the MSR reticle recommended by...

OP,
Clearly you haven't a clue how to use a Mil based reticle, in which case not even a Horus will help you. I now see that your asking for advice has nothing to do with seeking information. Good luck in your quest.

 

[ShhDontMove]

the Horus is designed for hunting or minute of man targets and larger... the first impression of clutter is generally a correct impression. In terms of competition it is much too course for the precision needed, sure some manage, but when you combine precision with need for speed, it's not as well suited. Our minds and eyes are drawn to defined intersections, we do not function at our highest potential level with grids. The sweet spot of any scope is in the center of the reticle, the fact you have to dial down, usually below 12x to use the complete reticle puts much shooters around the edges which are where most of the distortion lies, and can compromise your NPA if you are not well versed in the fundamentals. Basically you are forced to muscle it in position.

If you scour the blogs and forum you'll see most of the top (readro) shooters do not use the Horus, it's great a training reticle, but fails on a lot of levels in practice. It's been hashed out too many time to repeat, and of course there are a few who will say how great it works for them. At the end of the day, the numbers don't support the opinions of vocal few. You can range down to .1 with a lot of other reticles, like the MSR which is a cleaner and faster to use reticle. Ranging is a legacy skill and generally limited to about 600m, if you're good, 800m after that any error in mil'ing half the thickness of the reticle will cause you to miss the target. Mil'ing like the military does was meant for targets inside the shooter's personal danger space. (600m or less) and in their case they flash mil using the full size body or at least 36" worth (head to belt) to get a quick idea, even then, is not used much anymore if ever. (As a school trained Sniper, you set up target reference points before you ever consider shooting, you know the distances to objects around you, anything else that is of concern is usually closer and mil'ing is not necessary) Look up, RULR.

Over the last few years, Horus enjoyed a very popular salesman who worked hard to put the reticle in the right people's hand. This took years of convincing and when the effected personal leaves, it will probably start all over. (Hunt for something new) When you are fighting in the desert or high in mountains where it is dry, it works as advertised. Head to wetter climates, denser locations with a lot vegetation and you'll see if fall flat. If you live where it is dry, you'll have more success with it than if you live where it is green and wetter. As far things like the Tremor2, it's being discontinued, soon to be replaced. It's limitations became widely apparent, enough to have to go back to the drawing board with it. I can honestly say, I never met two advocates or salesman of it who could both agree on its' use. Hence the run on them right now, people are unloading them.

Better shooters can do everything with a much simpler reticle, they don't need the Horus. in the early days it was dismissed just about immediately, then they brought in a new salesman and now that the military is using it, people are happy to sing it's praises. Well believe me, the mob is fickle and once those influenced by the last push are gone, you'll see it all change, especially since that salesman and Horus have fallen out of love with each other. Which brings everyone back to tried and true reticles which have not changed much, stuff like the P4 / MSR.

Finally, here is a clue, Horus Charges all manufacturers of scopes who want to incorporate the Horus about $400, FinnAccuracy charges about $40. Horus is also well known to sue or threaten to sue any competing reticle for infringement because way back in the day they got a patent on the grid. So while holding over with a reticle, even sights, (see anti-aircraft web reticles) has long been documented, they were able to squeak a patent through. In my opinion, it's a bit of a cheap game to play. No, pro shooters realize less is more... it's only those new or fail to practice want the clutter of Horus as they feel its helps. That is how you can tell, those looking for a crutch and those who put in the time to practice.

Thanks for actually explaining the downsides of the HORUS and its use, that was pretty damn helpful.

 

[ShhDontMove]

To the OP,

You're started four threads on this forum:

"Which Savage do I buy"
"Sell me on the 6.5 Creedmoor"
"Which quick release mount"
"Which Horus"

We (I and others on the forum) have tried to give you SOUND advice that is 100% accurate and effective. And each time you have rebuffed it:





Now this:



The advice you have received thus far has not "biased", It is what works. However since it doesn't agree with your preconceived notions you don't want to accept it. If you do not like the answers, then you should not have asked the questions and learn from your own experience versus learning from ours.

It is clear to me that YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, but refuse to listen to others who have Been There and Done That.

Regarding your Horus inquiry (search is your friend): http://www.snipershide.com/shooting.../112263-need-help-horus-reticle-question.html

Good Luck, I'm done.

As I stated in those posts I do know very little about long range shooting. I have listened to others and took their advice. For instance, on the Savage thread I made I took someones advice and I'm going to go with a custom built rifle instead of just upgrading a Savage. I have seen and have buddies, in the military, who are snipers, use QD mounts and they told me they work. But I'm sure you are a sniper yourself and have had multiple deployments to Afghanistan and Iraq/ I have even taken their advice and they have given me ideas, but being in the military myself I realize a lot of things we are taught is "because its always been that way" or "the manual says so". Because of this I like to get my advice from all sources, including this forum. I like all answers, so I dont understand where you make up these assumptions that I dont like them.

As for the Savage thread saying I only wanted to hear from people wanting Savages, that is exactly what I want. The post didnt say "I want advice on what cheap .308 rifle to start with". It specifically stated I wanted advice on a Savage 308 model. It seems there are a lot of fanboys and people on the internet who will comment and bash on equipment theyve never used. Which is exactly why I wanted to hear the words from the horses mouth, not from a guy who only owns a Remmy and thinks Savages are crappy guns. So I dont see how stating I wanted to hear from Savage owners only can be seen as hard headed or not wanting to take advice. As stated above I did take advice on that thread.. once again I dont understand where your assumptions that I am blind and deaf to advice come from.

It seems you have some anger issues and like to make up assumptions and thoughts on others based solely on your immaturity. Also thank you for not giving any sound advice on this thread regarding the actual topic. I sure hope you are "done" on this thread. Have a nice day.

 

[steve123]

Which Horus?

None. A solution looking for a problem.

The Horus reticle concept is better for Novice to Intermediate level precision shooter. But not necessary or even beneficial to an Intermediate or Advanced marksman.

The MSR, G2MD, G2MDR, G2XR, USO-GAP, USO-MPR, P4F, etc all work very well.

Spend more time and less money, learning your equipment.

Some professional advanced marksmen disagree - fortunately Homeyer had a solution to a problem.


Winners Use Horus at the 2010 International Sniper Competition | HorusVision's Blog

 

[Graham]

Which Horus?

Some professional advanced marksmen disagree - fortunately Homeyer had a solution to a problem.


Winners Use Horus at the 2010 International Sniper Competition | HorusVision's Blog

Ed had a good reason for using a Horus reticle in that match: It wasn't his own.

If he were alive today he would agree with Buffybuster: You don't need a Horus to use holdovers.

 

[unreconstructed]

Some professional advanced marksmen disagree - fortunately Homeyer had a solution to a problem.


Winners Use Horus at the 2010 International Sniper Competition | HorusVision's Blog

HAHA... amazing that some guys buy horus propaganda

 

[Donr13]

I like my pmii w/h59. Only downside is with lower magnification you can't really see the lines anymore

 

[steve123]

Ed had a good reason for using a Horus reticle in that match: It wasn't his own.

If he were alive today he would agree with Buffybuster: You don't need a Horus to use holdovers.

You right Graham, you don't need a Horus to use holdovers, just to win using holdovers.


"If" what you allege is 100% true, it doesn't change the fact that they won the comp using holdovers with a Horus reticle does it? Or that out of the 32 teams, 5 out of 6 of the top teams used Horus reticles. Or that by some kind of bizarre miracle they somehow spotted their shots back east in a state known for humidity and moisture and corrected by easily measuring misses down to the .1 mil using a Horus. Or that they are "not" novice to intermediate keyboard shooters but real professionals advanced in their craft using a reticle system that works and works well.

I'll be the first to admit that "Horus - the company" has a plethora of faults. Never the less their reticles work as advertised.

Gee, I wish I had used other reticles when I won the AZPRC series in 2011 and 2012 using holdovers as primary in a H-58 and H-59 while 40+ other guys were dialing, "not"! Sorry I don't need any convincing as to what works and what doesn't when it comes to reticles and holdovers.

 

[Graham]

Which Horus?

You right Graham, you don't need a Horus to use holdovers, just to win using holdovers.

"If" what you allege is 100% true, it doesn't change the fact that they won the comp using holdovers with a Horus reticle does it?

Nor does it change the fact that so many were issued Horus reticles or that they happened to be wearing Fruit of the Loom underwear.

But I'm not rushing out to get a pair of underwear. Because make no mistake: Ed could have won that match without a Horus.

 

[CSTactical]

We stock scopes with HOURS reticles such as the Bushnell 3.5-21x and 4.5-30x and the H59 is the most requested HOURS.

I'm not a fan of the HOURS but they have there place.


Mike @ CSTACTICAL

 

[Graham]

Which Horus?

I'm not a fan of the HOURS but they have there place.

Their place is on the bottom line: The very bottom line.... In the bottom right hand corner of the ledger.

Mike, if someone forced me to buy a Horus know that I would buy mine from you. ?

 

[toddconley]

I would like to see more companies do a .2 windage line. I know that S&B does the h2cmr which addresses this. I am a novice occasional match shooter. Not an operator and I don't wear a jersey when I shoot a match. My favorite reticle is the h59. I still dial the elevation but I like the .2 windage ticks to hold in the wind. I do often hold the 2nd round if I miss. If there were more affordable reticles with .2 mil windage tics I would try them.

 

[Graham]

Which Horus?

Halfway between the .5 mil mark and the next hash mark is .25 Mils. Can you hold a difference of .05 Mils? Because I can't.

 

[toddconley]

Which scopes have .25 tics. I would like that as well. That would certainly be fine enough. No way I could hold that .05


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[Graham]

Which Horus?

And .... How wide would that .25 'tick' mark have to be?

Because that's why it's not necessary.

You see: The more you know, the less you need a Horus reticle.

 

[toddconley]

It would be a notch between the 1/2 mil and the center cross hair I was thinking? Is that not what you mean?


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[steve123]

And .... How wide would that .25 'tick' mark have to be?

Because that's why it's not necessary.

You see: The more you know, the less you need a Horus reticle.

Or in your case...the less you know, the more you need a Horus.

Because according to your logic nobody needs anything more than a regular mildot. Why then have the half mil mark in a .5 mil divided reticle when one can bracket a mil so accurately. I guess I should go out and find a tape measure that measures in .5 inches so I can (cough-gag) "eyeball" a exact measurement.

It makes perfect sense using .2 mil hashes because .1 is too fine and .5 is getting too course. Again... .1 click is easily seen, comprehended, realized without contemplating and compensated for quickly with a Horus reticle.

Todd, for the last year I've been dialing. I take advantage of those .2 mil marks in the H-59 every time.

 

[Graham]

Which Horus?

...the less you know, the more you need a Horus.

Not exactly: The less you know, the more you THINK that you need a Horus.

And Yes, people who know how to use a Mil dot reticle don't need more than that to accomplish the same task as they do with a Horus.

 

[CSTactical]

Their place is on the bottom line: The very bottom line.... In the bottom right hand corner of the ledger.

Mike, if someone forced me to buy a Horus know that I would buy mine from you.

LOL... That is funny!

Mike @ CSTACTICAL

 

[thrusty]

I'm a fan of the TMR, MLR, MSR, P4F.... Gives me everything I need.

If I had to pick a Horus reticle it'd be the H59...and because of Mike's level-headed response above in this silly thread, I'd buy it from him as well.

 

[Graham]

Which Horus?

The H59 is useless for hold unders, making it even less practical than a conventional Mildot reticle.

 

[thrusty]

The H59 is useless for hold unders, making it even less practical than a conventional Mildot reticle.

Agreed 110%
I can see its use though for DMR matches where you are on a clock and have multiple targets at random ranges though. These are the matches where the shooters just "go to war" on the targets anyway. lol

I personally would rather dial on precision rifles and especially when targets are beyond 500 yards. Anything within 500 yards I have opted to use my MIL hashes when time is a factor.

 

[kombayotch]

I'm not a fan of the HOURS but they have there place.

Yep...

 

[ultrarunner7]

Militarily speaking, the Horus is stellar. Ive fired quick reactive shots and upon following through, I just noted the splash in my reticle and knew that was my new hold(where I couldnt 12 drill). Also, in SOTIC, we shot side prone alot and I found it easier to shoot than the mil reticle. I have the H37 on my 300 win mag and its great. I just wish it had finer lines at the center. +1 for Horus.

 

[Graham]

Which Horus?

Military use for follow-up shots is the same as any other tactical use. Except that the Horus sucks for observation, both before and after the shot.

And on sideways shots the windage correction is neither so much nor so precise that you have to hold accurately in deep space with a conventional reticle (with a PBZ you are only holding right by the amount of the sight height, and a hold over is a hold over regardless).

I shot an H25 for a year, and I liked it. But I didn't need it. And I certainly didn't need it $400 worth.

 

[toddconley]

I am a complete novice. Unlike the other 99% of high speed low drag man killing operators here. But a few of these guys like those .2 windage ticks as well. Some of them are supposed to be pretty good shooters?


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[steve123]

The H59 is useless for hold unders, making it even less practical than a conventional Mildot reticle.

This time I'm not being sarcastic.

In what application would there be a need for holdunders when using a Horus reticle? All one has to do is use a 100Y zero and all shots will be holdovers. I've got 38 mils available at low power and approx 8.5 mils at max mag. That's holdovers out to 1200Y or so with my rifle at 25x.

With a mildot I can see why but that's the whole point of the Horus reticle so a guy doesn't have to dial on some elevation then holdunder.

Hmm, the regular mildot is looking more archaic all the time.

 

[AZ SCORPIO]

The H59 is useless for hold unders, making it even less practical than a conventional Mildot reticle.

Not true - you can hold upside down..

 

[AZ SCORPIO]

To the OP - I have a US Optics ER-25 with the H37 for sale. I am a total newbie and liked the ability to place a follow up shot quickly. Horus did work well for me for that. I have a .308 but since I only shoot 100 - 800 yds I found the 5-25x to be too much scope for that rifle. I haven't bought a .338 or .50 yet, so I don't need that big of a scope. Selling it for a good price if interested.

 

[Graham]

This time I'm not being sarcastic.

In what application would there be a need for holdunders when using a Horus reticle? All one has to do is use a 100Y zero and all shots will be holdovers. I've got 38 mils available at low power and approx 8.5 mils at max mag. That's holdovers out to 1200Y or so with my rifle at 25x.

With a mildot I can see why but that's the whole point of the Horus reticle so a guy doesn't have to dial on some elevation then holdunder.

Hmm, the regular mildot is looking more archaic all the time.

Always having to zero at 100 is not a feature, it's a limitation.

Let's do the mental math:

The Mildot reticle has exactly the same holdovers as the Horus does. But the Horus is limited because it can't do hold unders. That only makes the Mildot look more 'archaic' if modernization to Horus means creating a reticle that can accomplish less.

 

[toddconley]

How much for the er25


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[Mike_Honcho]

I am a complete novice. Unlike the other 99% of high speed low drag man killing operators here. But a few of these guys like those .2 windage ticks as well. Some of them are supposed to be pretty good shooters?


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Todd I am not a HSLD / BTDT guy either but I have been doing this for @ 12 yrs….

On paper more lines on the stadia seems like a good idea. The truth (and this goes to the heart of the greater discussion on Horus) the more time you spend actually shooting or MILing objects at a distance the more intuitive it becomes.

Once fractionalization is intuitive, less clutter is better. There really aren't two ways about it.

 

[delixe]

Always having to zero at 100 is not a feature, it's a limitation.

Let's do the mental math:

The Mildot reticle has exactly the same holdovers as the Horus does. But the Horus is limited because it can't do hold unders. That only makes the Mildot look more 'archaic' if modernization to Horus means creating a reticle that can accomplish less.

Hard to argue with that.

 

[Dogtown]

Unless of course, you were shooting donkey's in New Zealand only a few hundred yards away and didn't care about learning the first thing when it came to shooting.

Donkey's in NZ? Surely you mean sheep

 

[steve123]

Always having to zero at 100 is not a feature, it's a limitation.

Let's do the mental math:

The Mildot reticle has exactly the same holdovers as the Horus does. But the Horus is limited because it can't do hold unders. That only makes the Mildot look more 'archaic' if modernization to Horus means creating a reticle that can accomplish less.

Your funny Graham.

I got some math for you...try holding over for a 1 mile shot and hit what your aiming at. I've done it on more than one occasion. Oh, I'll tell ya, I felt quite limited by my 100Y zero, LOL.

The standard archaic mildot reticle I'm used to seeing has 5 mils below the crosshair and 5 in all the other directions. Now how are you going to reliably hit anything past 5 mils holding over without dialing up more. What a PITA that you'd want to dial up only to have to holdunder for closer shots. Not only that but the mils are not numbered so mistakes are more likely.

I shoot with some people that use regular mildots. One time we had 25-30 mph winds. They couldn't even hold off enough using their reticle, they had to dial. Whereas I simply heldoff and got the top score that day. Of course I was using my 6x47L and they were using that popular archaic cartridge you like so much. Also we had a holdover stage once where "no dialing was allowed", you can guess what happened next, right? Well past a certain distance they ran out of mildots.

I can do this all day long, keep the lame justifications coming.

 

[Graham]

Which Horus?

Your funny Graham.

I got some math for you...try holding over for a 1 mile shot and hit what your aiming at. I've done it on more than one occasion. Oh, I'll tell ya, I felt quite limited by my 100Y zero, LOL.

The standard archaic mildot reticle I'm used to seeing has 5 mils below the crosshair and 5 in all the other directions. Now how are you going to reliably hit anything past 5 mils holding over without dialing up more. What a PITA that you'd want to dial up only to have to holdunder for closer shots. Not only that but the mils are not numbered so mistakes are more likely.

I shoot with some people that use regular mildots. One time we had 25-30 mph winds. They couldn't even hold off enough using their reticle, they had to dial. Whereas I simply heldoff and got the top score that day. Of course I was using my 6x47L and they were using that popular archaic cartridge you like so much. Also we had a holdover stage once where "no dialing was allowed", you can guess what happened next, right? Well past a certain distance they ran out of mildots.

I can do this all day long, keep the lame justifications coming.

Steve,

You are attempting to narrow the definition of a mildot reticle to a single version that will give you an argument.

The fact remains that, assuming both scopes are at the same magnification, all the Mils available in an H59 will also be available in the scope that allows hold unders.

Without a full vertical crosshair we are no longer talking about a different way of representing a Mil, the issue becomes a limitation on the functionality of the scope.

 

[Graham]

Which Horus?

Zero on the top dot of the mil dot reticle and now you have 9 Mils below

Exactly:

Steve, even if you do decide to use nothing but holdovers you still get more of them in a non-H59.

 

[AZ SCORPIO]

How much for the er25


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Listed for $2900.. Will sell for $2800

 

[Snowcapped]

I have an H59 and I routinely take it out to 735 meters. I am a fan. It is fast, and using it affords me the ability to focus on good body position. I have a great deal of deference for the salty dogs who run the show here, indeed there is a great deal of experience represented here. I live in a rain forest (read very green and wet), and the H59 has been great. I love the .2 mil hash marks,as iI can dial up or down one click and I've got a positive cross hair to hold on. Is it the be-all and end-all of reticles? No. But I do appreciate its strengths.