Rifle Scopes Which optic for 3 gun

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Dog

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Jul 25, 2017
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#1
Hey guys. Need some help. More of a precision guy, but am picking up a ct legal “other”rifle for 3 gun, which I am getting in to. Question is, Which scope. I am tired of spending a fortune and would like to stay on the cheaper side for this. The ones I was looking at were eotech with magnifier which I believe I have ruled out. A Steiner p4xi which I know is a steal for the money. I appreciate great glass. The other choice is a primary arms acss raptor front focal plane 1-6. And also the retinal is for a 300 blk which is what I have. Nice to have a caliber specific reticle and ffp. I do know the glass won’t be up to steiner quality

Glass quality is usually most important to me. I own us optics, Steiner military and vortex razors gen ii. So this is painful buying such a cheap scope. So I want the best one for the money. Seems the primary has a lot of amazing options for the price point of 399.
 
#2
To me, glass quality should be one of the lower priorities on a 3 gun rifle. The biggest is the reticle and that is purely personal preference. I have used eotech, aimpoint, vortex 1-4 pst, and vortex razor 1-6

It will depend on what ranges you plan on shooting. When I was competing, 1 match went to 200 yards and the other matches were 50yds and less. I likes the aimpoint for the 50 and under match, I never found my self using the magnification. On the farther match I liked the vortex 1-6, almost as good as my aimpoint on 1x but had plenty of magnification for 200 and beyond.
 
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#4
I would advise against FFP if you’re staying under 8x.

I can’t say enough good things about Vortex Razor 1-6. It’s a little on the heavy but the FOV and eyebox is great, the dot can be aimpoint bright if you crank it up, and the JM1 reticle is simple and lines up well with most 55 and 75-77 gr ammo.

It’s not on the cheap end of the spectrum, but it’s well below the Khales 1-6 and Nightforce 1-8 offerings.
 
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#6
skatz11 said:
I would advise against FFP if you’re staying under 8x.

I can’t say enough good things about Vortex Razor 1-6. It’s a little on the heavy but the FOV and eyebox is great, the dot can be aimpoint bright if you crank it up, and the JM1 reticle is simple and lines up well with most 55 and 75-77 gr ammo.

It’s not on the cheap end of the spectrum, but it’s well below the Khales 1-6 and Nightforce 1-8 offerings.
Click to expand...
If you dont mind me asking, Why sfp over ffp? I have heard that before. Also, Is a caliber specific reticle important? I’m using on 300bo

Thanks
 
#7
I saw a review this evening of a Primary Arms Platinum 1-8, it is made in Japan and the author of the piece remarked on how good the glass is. At $1300 it might be more than you want to spend but I think you would benefit from checking it out.
 
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#8
Dog said:
If you dont mind me asking, Why sfp over ffp? I have heard that before. Also, Is a caliber specific reticle important? I’m using on 300bo

Thanks
Click to expand...

I’m usually either at 1x or maxed at 6x. With low magnification and small targets readying a FFP reticle is difficult.

At 1x the FFP scopes usually appear as a large donut. I prefer a finer aiming point (the bright dot and fine cross hair on my razor)

I hope this makes sense.
 
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#9
skatz11 said:
I’m usually either at 1x or maxed at 6x. With low magnification and small targets readying a FFP reticle is difficult.

At 1x the FFP scopes usually appear as a large donut. I prefer a finer aiming point (the bright dot and fine cross hair on my razor)

I hope this makes sense.
Click to expand...
How do you feel about 4x at 100 yards. I know the Steiner is the best of the lower price optics. I am 43 with decent eyes. Not like when i was 20. As bad as I would like the Steiner. I feel 6x will be better
 
#10
4x is fine at 100 yards. You are not shooting a 1" sticker but an 8" A zone on cardboard so higher magnification is not necessary. I will throw in the swfa 1-4 non HD version. Can be had around $300, great glass and good turrets. Second focal plane so the reticle is easy to see on 1x.
 
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#11
Dog said:
How do you feel about 4x at 100 yards. I know the Steiner is the best of the lower price optics. I am 43 with decent eyes. Not like when i was 20. As bad as I would like the Steiner. I feel 6x will be better
Click to expand...

I’d say out to 200 yards 4x will be ok. I’d go with the 4x Steiner ahead of some of the entry level 6x and 8x optics.
 
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#12
So thanks for everyone’s help. Very informative. I do need to know one more thing. I notice a lot of the reticle are caliber specific. And a standard mil reticle is more than I want to spend. It seems only primary arms makes a 300acx reticle. What about the Steiner or vortex that says it’s for 5.56, will that work with 300acc?
 
#13
I plan on shooting my swfa 1-4 in a run n gun 5k out to 300. For the one that has targets out to 600, I will be running my weaver tactical 3-10. I plugged in the target size in my strelok pro with the 4x swfa and the target is visible just not much room for mistakes at 600 when you just ran to get to the shooting station.
 
#15
Athlon Midas 1-6x24 are on sale at Cameraland.

Now that is one great scope for the money! Available in a mil/mil or moa/moa and those reticles are well done. Capped but finger adjustable turrets, very good glass and light weight.

For a 300BO you'll need to map out the dope for the load, in other words I personally wouldn't want a BDC for subs because the BC's of all the different bullets vary so much, as well as velocities. 230 hybrids for instance have a high BC and 147 cast bullets have a much lower BC. Well all those bullets drop like rocks and a low BC heavy bullet going 100 fps slower at 950 fps has a much loopier trajectory than a high BC bullet going 100 fps faster.

It not like a 223 BDC reticle with 55 FMJ going 3000 fps where the BC's of all the 55's are similar.
 
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#16
I've been using a Trijicon TA-11 ACOG (3.5x35) for the past 20 years or so and love it. I have an objective lens cap for it, which when closed, turns the scope into a red dot for close targets. The eye relief on the TA-11s is second to none, and you can't screw up your cheek weld. For another 3G AR that I am getting, I'll get a Kahles K16i as I've yet to find another variable-power scope with as good eye relief and eye box.
 
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#17
I'd say the best bang for the buck is the new Athlon 1-6x24 Cronus. Street price is under 1k and its just as good as the 1-6x24 Razor. I have both of them. Its made in Japan and its a high quality unit. I just posted a review.
 
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#18
bhoges said:
I'd say the best bang for the buck is the new Athlon 1-6x24 Cronus. Street price is under 1k and its just as good as the 1-6x24 Razor. I have both of them. Its made in Japan and its a high quality unit. I just posted a review.
Click to expand...
Give us a call, 516-217-1000 and we can get one of these scopes on the way to you. We just received another sizable delivery of them.
 
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#20
I had a Vortex PST 1-4 w/ .2 MIL adj. I liked it a lot because it had a zero stop, MTC-like turrets, illuminated reticle & the magnification range was perfectly adequate for its intended use. The throw lever was a nice addition as well. No real idea as to its durability because I never beat it up. Needless to say, it always worked.

The only real con is that the reticle was too small. Even at 4X the reticle isn’t really big enough to use adequately. That was my biggest hang up. Other than that, I really liked it.

My current gun I use an AimPoint T-1. I dig it because it is fast, really fast! I really wish I would’ve bought another low power variable optic because there are rims when a little magnification would go a long ways.
 
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#21
All bdc reticles will require you to take YOUR rifle and YOUR ammo out to the range and find out where each hold over actually impacts at distance. A 16" barrel with lower power 55gr bullets vs a 20" barrel with high power 55gn bullets will not impact at the same distance per holdover, they will be relatively close but not exact. With that said you can use any hold over reticle with any rifle/caliber. You just need to find out where the hold over matches your particular rifle and ammo and remember or write it on a dope card.
 
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#23
For 1-4 power I like Trijicon accupower 1-4x24 clear view make fast on Target


1529806795949.jpeg
 
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#28
Just out of curiousity, why is capped turrets and non zero stops a deal breaker on a 3 gun optic? I personally would not use an optic that did not have called turrets or atleast locking turrets on a 3 gun rifle. Atleast the matches I used to shoot non capped turrets would have a very good chance of getting bumped while going in and out of windows, around barricades, getting dumped into barrels. On top of that, I have never had a need to dial during a 3 gun comp. like I said above, the farthest we shot in our local comps was 200 and I know some go out to 500-600 in those cases just unscrew the cap. With the zero stop, it's not like a long range scope where you are going to be using more than 1 revolution of the turret anyways, so dial up, then dial back to zero. Sure a zero stop would make it more fool proof but it really would not be that hard.
 
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#30
Baron85 said:
Just out of curiousity, why is capped turrets and non zero stops a deal breaker on a 3 gun optic? I personally would not use an optic that did not have called turrets or atleast locking turrets on a 3 gun rifle. Atleast the matches I used to shoot non capped turrets would have a very good chance of getting bumped while going in and out of windows, around barricades, getting dumped into barrels. On top of that, I have never had a need to dial during a 3 gun comp. like I said above, the farthest we shot in our local comps was 200 and I know some go out to 500-600 in those cases just unscrew the cap. With the zero stop, it's not like a long range scope where you are going to be using more than 1 revolution of the turret anyways, so dial up, then dial back to zero. Sure a zero stop would make it more fool proof but it really would not be that hard.
Click to expand...

I prefer locking turrets or at the minimum MTC turrets. I can even live w/ a capped windage turret. But a capped elevation turret is a deal killer. Why? If it’s a comp I need to dial now, while the clock is ticking. Not X-amount of seconds later while I’m falling off the board. God forbid it’s a combat environment or even a hunting scenario. I’d rather dial for a 4-500 M shot than hold for it if at all possible.

As for the zero stop, why not? I agree that chances of hitting a second revolution in a 3 Gun comp is unlikely. If I need to dial down in a hurry I can make a hard spin to return to my 50 / 100 yard zero & go from there. Call it piece of mind if you want, but having the ability to return to my zero (at what whatever range) is a confidence booster.
 
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#31
Don’t know if I’m gonna get clobbered, but I went with the p4xi. I got it used with larue cantilever for just over 500. In great condition. I figured I can’t go wrong. Mount is 230 alone. Out of all the sub 500 dollar scopes, I cannot get past one of them having German glass. To me, that’s insane. My Steiner militaryn is like looking at things in 3D. I don’t care much for the reticle in the p4xi, but at the end of the day, if I don’t like it, I Can sell it at no loss. Thanks for everyone’s help and opinions
 
#32
Baron85 said:
Just out of curiousity, why is capped turrets and non zero stops a deal breaker on a 3 gun optic? I personally would not use an optic that did not have called turrets or atleast locking turrets on a 3 gun rifle. Atleast the matches I used to shoot non capped turrets would have a very good chance of getting bumped while going in and out of windows, around barricades, getting dumped into barrels. On top of that, I have never had a need to dial during a 3 gun comp. like I said above, the farthest we shot in our local comps was 200 and I know some go out to 500-600 in those cases just unscrew the cap. With the zero stop, it's not like a long range scope where you are going to be using more than 1 revolution of the turret anyways, so dial up, then dial back to zero. Sure a zero stop would make it more fool proof but it really would not be that hard.
Click to expand...

Do you actively shoot 3-gun? At a competitive level? Literally no one EVER dials holds in any match of consequence. WAAAAAAY too slow.
 
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#33
Dog said:
Don’t know if I’m gonna get clobbered, but I went with the p4xi. I got it used with larue cantilever for just over 500. In great condition. I figured I can’t go wrong. Mount is 230 alone. Out of all the sub 500 dollar scopes, I cannot get past one of them having German glass. To me, that’s insane. My Steiner militaryn is like looking at things in 3D. I don’t care much for the reticle in the p4xi, but at the end of the day, if I don’t like it, I Can sell it at no loss. Thanks for everyone’s help and opinions
Click to expand...

Great choice and you got it at a great deal. I love my P4Xi. I have several other much higher-end LPVOs (MK6, Razor HD) and the Steiner definitely offers the highest "performance to cost" ratio in the marketplace. Especially for 3-gun where optics can take a beating as they get dumped into buckets and smacked into barricades.
 
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#34
ClangClang said:
Do you actively shoot 3-gun? At a competitive level? Literally no one EVER dials holds in any match of consequence. WAAAAAAY too slow.
Click to expand...

Maybe you misread my post I was pushing for capped or locking turrets. I am by no means a top level shooter but usually placed in the top 25% at the local matches when I was shooting 3 gun. It has been 4-5 years since I have shot in a 3 gun match and never at a big match, I just played in the local matches. Furthest we shot was 200yds and I used holds. That was the point of my post. I don't see the need for exposed turrets or zero stops. If I had the choice all things being equal I would obviously choose zero stops but on a 3 gun scope it is not a deciding factor.

To each their own, that's why there is so many options out there. What works for me doesn't work for someone else. I'm just giving my OPINION.

Happy shooting
 
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#35
skatz11 said:
I would advise against FFP if you’re staying under 8x.

I can’t say enough good things about Vortex Razor 1-6. It’s a little on the heavy but the FOV and eyebox is great, the dot can be aimpoint bright if you crank it up, and the JM1 reticle is simple and lines up well with most 55 and 75-77 gr ammo.

It’s not on the cheap end of the spectrum, but it’s well below the Khales 1-6 and Nightforce 1-8 offerings.
Click to expand...

I'm a huge fan of the Vortex Razor 1-6 with the JM-1 reticle, especially for the price. :cool:
 
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#36
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#37
NormanChang said:
Before I do like the Vortex Razor gen II 1-6 $1200-$1400 , but now I like the Trijicon accupower 1-8 $1200-$1300 much better,
So ~~~ ? ? ?

Vortex xxx VS Trijicon xxx ? ? ?

Thanks
Click to expand...

I'm not a fan of the Trijicon personally, it's not daytime bright and I don't like the reticles. YMMV

We're also a Hide dealer and carry both those products as well :) Members can call for hide pricing at 916-670-1103
 
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#38
I ha e shot a decent amount of 3 gun. Locally and a match or two. Living in Vegas though, my guys I shoot lically with are consistent top 10 shooters. Many VERY avoid shooters either live here or train here. I finished top 20 in the Safariland Multi Gun match last year. My first time competing at it. So, I’m not great, but I’m ok.
I shot a Vortex Razor with the JM reticle. Also shot a Burris 1-5 and a 1-8. Most matches are indeed sub 300. Many matches here are “bay style”, where you’re not shooting past 75 yds. Even at the SafariLand Match, furthest was 300 ish. For those distances I shot and still shoot a 50/200 zero and capped turrets. That keeps me within scoring distances from contact out to past 300. I REALLY didn’t like the Burris with the turrets uncapped at all. I ran them capped on everything. I 100% agree that in that game guns get bumped, drug, tossed and jostled. Several times in a pre stage warm up/check, I’d see my turrets has moved. I always caught it because I was paranoid and checked often. For my $$ and experience, the Razor is hard to beat. Downside is weight, but I never felt it slowed me down. It’s tough as nails too.
Recently, I have got my hands on a NX8. I would shoot this ALL DAY and twice on Sundays. Mine is the dual capped version though. Would I run the exposed elevation and capped windage?? Don’t think so. Probably back to the Razor IF i was in that spot. I’m not though, and the NX8 has EVERYTHING to be the best 3Gun scope out there.
 
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#39
Dog said:
Don’t know if I’m gonna get clobbered, but I went with the p4xi. I got it used with larue cantilever for just over 500. In great condition. I figured I can’t go wrong. Mount is 230 alone. Out of all the sub 500 dollar scopes, I cannot get past one of them having German glass. To me, that’s insane. My Steiner militaryn is like looking at things in 3D. I don’t care much for the reticle in the p4xi, but at the end of the day, if I don’t like it, I Can sell it at no loss. Thanks for everyone’s help and opinions
Click to expand...

I think you made about the best choice in your price range. It's far closer to the heavy hitters than anything in it's price range.

VegasHKShooter said:
Recently, I have got my hands on a NX8. I would shoot this ALL DAY and twice on Sundays. Mine is the dual capped version though. Would I run the exposed elevation and capped windage?? Don’t think so. Probably back to the Razor IF i was in that spot. I’m not though, and the NX8 has EVERYTHING to be the best 3Gun scope out there.
Click to expand...

That's a pretty strong testament. I would like to try one of these but may have to buy one to do it; no one local seems to have one. How would you compare eye box, or "how easy it is to get behind" to the razor? If it's like a Mark 6 1-6 or better, I'm in.
 
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#40
VegasHKShooter said:
I ha e shot a decent amount of 3 gun. Locally and a match or two. Living in Vegas though, my guys I shoot lically with are consistent top 10 shooters. Many VERY avoid shooters either live here or train here. I finished top 20 in the Safariland Multi Gun match last year. My first time competing at it. So, I’m not great, but I’m ok.
I shot a Vortex Razor with the JM reticle. Also shot a Burris 1-5 and a 1-8. Most matches are indeed sub 300. Many matches here are “bay style”, where you’re not shooting past 75 yds. Even at the SafariLand Match, furthest was 300 ish. For those distances I shot and still shoot a 50/200 zero and capped turrets. That keeps me within scoring distances from contact out to past 300. I REALLY didn’t like the Burris with the turrets uncapped at all. I ran them capped on everything. I 100% agree that in that game guns get bumped, drug, tossed and jostled. Several times in a pre stage warm up/check, I’d see my turrets has moved. I always caught it because I was paranoid and checked often. For my $$ and experience, the Razor is hard to beat. Downside is weight, but I never felt it slowed me down. It’s tough as nails too.
Recently, I have got my hands on a NX8. I would shoot this ALL DAY and twice on Sundays. Mine is the dual capped version though. Would I run the exposed elevation and capped windage?? Don’t think so. Probably back to the Razor IF i was in that spot. I’m not though, and the NX8 has EVERYTHING to be the best 3Gun scope out there.
Click to expand...

I have to say, the Safariland match was one of the most disappointing matches I've ever attended. I really dislike this trend of turning 3 gun matches into glorified USPSA stages. To me, and many others, 3 gun isn't a 3 gun match when every target is a piece of cake to hit. in my humble opinion, 75 yard targets for the longest target is ridiculous.

Maybe I am biased being raised on the MGM Ironman with targets to 400 and 500 yards, spinners everywhere for pistol, rifle, slug shotty. There were always targets that were damn hard to hit. My girlfriend and I were squadded with the AMU about 4 years ago. When guys like Daniel Horner and Tyler Payne take FTN's, you know it's a tough course of fire. A 3 gun match should be a challenge, not a turn and burn. Even though I understand the whole 3 Gun Nation mentality of making a sport that shows well on TV, I definitely don't think it's true to it's roots.

Back on subject, my beloved Burris 1-8 from LOW fits the bill perfectly for every scenario I put it through. It's loaded with every feature you need for 3 gun. After comparing it side by side to numerous optics for a lot more money, it makes no sense to me to spend more. This is one of my favorite scopes out of everything I own. Second choice would be the Razor 1-6, I love this scope with the Miculek BDC.
 
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#41
mgrs said:
I think you made about the best choice in your price range. It's far closer to the heavy hitters than anything in it's price range.



That's a pretty strong testament. I would like to try one of these but may have to buy one to do it; no one local seems to have one. How would you compare eye box, or "how easy it is to get behind" to the razor? If it's like a Mark 6 1-6 or better, I'm in.
Click to expand...

Strong indeed, but I’ve had many of the LPV’s on the market. The NX8 is that good. Is it “The best”?? Hell.....define best. If anyone, myself included jumps on here and says XYZ is “best”, there will be 20 guys that will tell me I’m wrong. They will have valid reasons why I’m wrong..... to them. “Best” is so personal nowadays. Heck, there are so many great scopes out now, many could be best, for someone.

Birddog, I have absolutely nothing bad to say about Burris scopes. If you follow my posting history, you’ll see that I have recommended the 1-8 many times. I had one and loved it. For ME, the NX8 is better. I’m not a sponsored shooter. I get to play with, shoot and train with anything I want. I’m also training LEO to carry these guns into harms way, so not all of my opinion is about gaming. Although I do love 3 gun and very much think it is a fantastic way to get guys out pushing their limits and trying things outside their comfort zone. I’m NOT the “Gun games will get you killed on the streets” guy. I believe the NX8 offers a couple things better than the XTRII 1-8. It’s smaller, it’s lighter, it has a true mil dot or MOA reticle, it’s nuclear bright (although the XTRII was very bright as well). It weighs 17oz vs 21, and the footprint is smaller than the older NXS 1-4. There is a ton to like on it. Does this diminish the XTRII? Not at all. As a sponsored Burris shooter, you likely can’t go train, shoot steel, go on patrol, shoot several matches with other scopes. Burris probably wouldn’t like your picture floating around with a Kabyles or a NF on your gun. I can. For me....I say the world is big enough for both.
 
#42
The Cronus BTR 1-6x24 ATSR2 has served me very well this year. One feature I've really come to appreciate is the very forgiving eye relief. 3 gun forces you into some weird positions. I've always shot "nose on the charging handle" to help maintain a consistent cheek wield in those weird positions, so I mounted my scope with a forward offset. Even with that offset, most everyone with a cheek wield further back from the charging handle can still see through the Cronus without running out of eye relief.
3gun.jpg
 
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#43
VegasHKShooter said:
Strong indeed, but I’ve had many of the LPV’s on the market. The NX8 is that good. Is it “The best”?? Hell.....define best. If anyone, myself included jumps on here and says XYZ is “best”, there will be 20 guys that will tell me I’m wrong. They will have valid reasons why I’m wrong..... to them. “Best” is so personal nowadays. Heck, there are so many great scopes out now, many could be best, for someone.

Birddog, I have absolutely nothing bad to say about Burris scopes. If you follow my posting history, you’ll see that I have recommended the 1-8 many times. I had one and loved it. For ME, the NX8 is better. I’m not a sponsored shooter. I get to play with, shoot and train with anything I want. I’m also training LEO to carry these guns into harms way, so not all of my opinion is about gaming. Although I do love 3 gun and very much think it is a fantastic way to get guys out pushing their limits and trying things outside their comfort zone. I’m NOT the “Gun games will get you killed on the streets” guy. I believe the NX8 offers a couple things better than the XTRII 1-8. It’s smaller, it’s lighter, it has a true mil dot or MOA reticle, it’s nuclear bright (although the XTRII was very bright as well). It weighs 17oz vs 21, and the footprint is smaller than the older NXS 1-4. There is a ton to like on it. Does this diminish the XTRII? Not at all. As a sponsored Burris shooter, you likely can’t go train, shoot steel, go on patrol, shoot several matches with other scopes. Burris probably wouldn’t like your picture floating around with a Kabyles or a NF on your gun. I can. For me....I say the world is big enough for both.
Click to expand...

I agree with you Vegas. If I came across sounding like I was bagging the Nightforce, I humbly apologize. I do think it's an excellent optic. Quite frankly, it's amazingly compact and lightweight. And I have seen that you speak well of the Burris, shooter support and appreciation is a great thing. I should have been more specific in clarifying that it is simply my humble opinion that I gain nothing from more expensive optics in the LPV category. I'm personally not a fan of mil reticles in these scope types. My first 1-6 Razor was a mil reticle, and when I dished it off for the Gen II I got the JM BDC. I find BDC reticles quicker and easier to use on the clock when transitioning through targets at range.. My 1-8's are 3 gun scopes for the most part. What precision DMR type shooting I have done, I would dial.

So for my usage in 3 gun I simply haven't found a weak spot in my optic that would justify me spending more. But I have nothing but respect for Nightforce and their new LPV's, as well as your valued opinion, and again, humbly apologize for sounding otherwise. There is definitely enough room in the world for both ;)
 
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#44
Rigjt on brother. I know we agree far more on scopes than not. In this day and age there are MANY great choices. With just a little research, one would be hard pressed to not find a great scope for their uses. It’s a wonderful time to be a shooter and competitor.

Hopefully we will be at a competition together soon and can meet up.
 
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#45
VegasHKShooter said:
Rigjt on brother. I know we agree far more on scopes than not. In this day and age there are MANY great choices. With just a little research, one would be hard pressed to not find a great scope for their uses. It’s a wonderful time to be a shooter and competitor.

Hopefully we will be at a competition together soon and can meet up.
Click to expand...

Amen to that..
 
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