Whidden Gunworks dies

#2
The seater is very good, of the factory made threaded 7/8-14 dies, you won't find any better.
As for they're non bushing FL sizer i can not comment as i have not tried them.
 
#3
Damnit man I cant decide on dies for the life of me. I have two sets of Hornady dies. Both the Hornady Custom and New Dimensions sets, both with stuck cases. They always required an insane amount of force to operate. Looked at the Redding Competition set, but again, I don't see the point of a bushing die if you aren't neck turning... Anyone have any input?
 
#5
The bushing die really doesn't have all that much to do with neck turning. It is about having consistent neck tension on your brass and not overworking it.
 
#6
If you are omitting the sizer ball as most folks do, the bushing die has everything to do with neck turning. A bushing die works the OD of a case, and the OD in reality has nothing at all to do with neck tension. You are never going to have consistent neck tension running a bushing die without expander ball or neck turning.

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#7
I recently had a custom set of dies created by Whidden for a wildcat AR round (.270 AR - brass created by cutting down and necking up a 6.5CM case)......mine is a non-bushing FL sizing die and it works great. No experience with the .308 dies, but Whidden makes quality dies.
 
#9
rangeryo said:
If you are omitting the sizer ball as most folks do, the bushing die has everything to do with neck turning. A bushing die works the OD of a case, and the OD in reality has nothing at all to do with neck tension. You are never going to have consistent neck tension running a bushing die without expander ball or neck turning.

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Click to expand...

I beg to differ but I'm glad that you found what will work for you.
 
#10
rangeryo said:
If you are omitting the sizer ball as most folks do, the bushing die has everything to do with neck turning. A bushing die works the OD of a case, and the OD in reality has nothing at all to do with neck tension. You are never going to have consistent neck tension running a bushing die without expander ball or neck turning.

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Click to expand...

Bushing or not, the case is sized from the outside. I don't see how this has anything to do with a bushing.
 
#11
Not if you are running an expander ball, in which case it doesnt matter, because the last sizing operation is that of the expander ball passing through the ID of the case mouth. Every case ive ever checked after running through my cheap hornady dies has had consistent neck tension of .003 with an ID of .305

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#15
Rangeryo is correct.
Getting consistent neck tension without an expander ball in un turned brass is really not achieveable.

If you use the expander ball it will pass through the neck after the bushing has sized down the OD, and is no longer touching the neck. You will not have achieved your desired neck tension, as the tension will be set by the expander ball and not the bushing.
The only way this is not true is if the expander is of a smaller diameter then the inside of the sized neck.
It is simply how a sizing die works bushing or not.

Using a bushing die without the expander and without neck turning, means you move all the inconsitency of the neck inwards, and you will have not achieved consistent neck tension, as the neck tension is decided by the inside diameter of the brass not the OD.
And consistent neck tension is not achieveable with brass that has uneven neck thickness, on the inside.

This is why you use a expander mandrel and die to move the inconsitency of the neck thickness to the outside before you turn the brass.
So the brass has a consistent neck thickness before it is sized by the bushing.

And it is the only way to achieve truly consistent neck tension, now there are other factors that apply to consistent neck tension of course, but that was not what this post took up.

Get yourself a Precision caliper, mic and ball mic and measure for anyone who does not believe me.
And if you beg to differ get a 21st century hydro bullet seater and try both methods and see how it affects your seating pressures.
 
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#16
Powermac said:
Rangeryo is correct.
Getting consistent neck tension without an expander ball in un turned brass is really not achieveable.

If you use the expander ball it will pass through the neck after the bushing has sized down the OD, and is no longer touching the neck. yYou will not have achieved your desired neck tension, as the tension will be set by the expander ball and not the bushing.
The only way this is not true is if the expander is of a smaller diameter then the inside of the sized neck.
It is simply how a sizing die works bushing or not.

Using a bushing die without the expander and without neck turning, means you move all the inconsitency of the neck inwards, and you will have not achieved consistent neck tension, as the neck tension is decided by the inside diameter of the brass not the OD.

This is why you use a expander mandrel and die to move the inconsitency of the neck thickness to the outside before you turn the brass.
So the brass has a consistent neck thickness before it is sized by the bushing.

And it is the only way to achieve truly consistent neck tension, now there are other factors that apply to consistent neck tension of course but i'm not gonna start about that.
Click to expand...

Thank you man. Anyone who believes otherwise has simply been duped...

Im assuming the other factors you mentioned are aimed towards metallurgy, stress and strain and all that jazz?

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#17
There are other factors if you are really theral that will affect your neck tension.
Wether to worry about it, depends on your goals and how much OCD you have i guess.

Consistent trim length.
Seating depth, the amount of bearing surface in the neck.
Brass springback/ annealing.
Neck lubrication, and it's consistency.
The consistency in the OD of the bullet and it's optional pressure ring.
And time is also a factor as the necks of loaded ammo will stiffen over time.

So trim the brass every firing to a consistent length, why i love my Giraud.
Check your seating depth on every bullet.
Anneal your brass every 3 firings at least.
Clean cases every firing and use something like Imperial dry neck lube.

When you load always seat the bullet in each case after sizing the neck and adding your charge.
Instead of filling up a tray and move on in that fashion.
As then the brass springback will be more even and so will your neck tension.
Another good reason to have more then one press, or a turret.

And you will have come a lot closer to consistent neck tension.

Sort bullets by OD?
It's something reserved for the most die hard BR guys.

Other factors would be as you mentioned metallurgy and the consistency of it in the cases etc.
Not something i have any knowledge to state anything about on a forum.
 
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#19
The Whidden .308 die I tried sized the brass too much for me. It made the base .002 smaller than the Redding bushing die I purchased after I sent the Whidden back. It actually sized more than a small base die I have, I called them about it and they said it didn't seem out of spec??? I've had no problems from the Redding.
 
#20
Well if the die is out of spec or not might depend on your chamber and rifle, as i know nothing of it it is just a assumption.
But it quite clearly states they are cut to fit PTG match reamers and with generous chambers they will of course size the brass more then desired in some cases.
Every mfg cuts they're dies to different dimensions and depending on your chamber they work the brass to a different amount when resizing.

Wether this is the case here i do not know of course, just a thought.
 
#21
Not trying to hijack this thread, but I am also in the market for some new dies and was considering the Redding S bushing set. Am I understanding this correctly that the bushing dies are "useless" if your not using the pander ball and/or neck turning the brass?
 
#22
clrems77 said:
Not trying to hijack this thread, but I am also in the market for some new dies and was considering the Redding S bushing set. Am I understanding this correctly that the bushing dies are "useless" if your not using the pander ball and/or neck turning the brass?
Click to expand...

My personal studies would indicate yes. If you are looking for consistency you arent going to want to run a bushing die without an expander ball unless you are neck turning. If you are going to use an expander ball with a bushing die you will only benefit from slightly reduced wear on your brass during the sizing operation.

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#24
As powermac stated if you run non-turned brass through a bushing die without a ball, you will just be moving all of the inconsistency to the inner diameter of the case mouth. If you are going to use the expander ball, you might as well use a cheaper, standard die.

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#25
For what it's worth, I'm likely going from a Whidden bushing sizer die to either a custom die or to Redding Comp. die. Even on new unfired brass, when trying to run the case necks through the bushing I get some FL case body sizing that I would prefer not to have on unfired brass.

This is from the 260 Remington dies and new Lapua brass. I have been happy with the bullet seater though and the sizing die does work well, but I prefer less working of the case body. Probably talk with them about sending in some fired cases and have them cut a die to match as they have been great to deal with in the past.
 
#27
Powermac said:
Well if the die is out of spec or not might depend on your chamber and rifle, as i know nothing of it it is just a assumption.
But it quite clearly states they are cut to fit PTG match reamers and with generous chambers they will of course size the brass more then desired in some cases.
Every mfg cuts they're dies to different dimensions and depending on your chamber they work the brass to a different amount when resizing.

Wether this is the case here i do not know of course, just a thought.
Click to expand...

My match chamber was cut with a ptg 95 palma reamer. I bought the reamer and this was the first chamber cut with it. I also have a straight factory remington 308 and couldn't get the brass from it to go in the die without standing up and leaning down on the handle.
 
#28
rangeryo said:
If you are going to use the expander ball, you might as well use a cheaper, standard die.
Click to expand...

I agree with all you said about bushing dies except the part I quoted above. Bushing dies even if using the expander ball work the neck brass less than a store bought FL standard die if you select the correct bushing. Which in time means less annealing, trimming and less case failures.

Most people are not aware how far down a standard FL die sizes the neck before the expander brings it back up to size. In a 308, my Forster FL die sizes the neck OD down to around 0.328, and the expander brings it back up to 0.336 for Lapua brass. I can get less case growth (and presumably less work-hardening) by using a 0.334" bushing with the expander.

Just putting it out there for informational purposes. Whether or not it's worth the extra money is up to the end user.
 
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#29
I have some 25-06 brass I turned the necks to fit the die and got my best loaded ammo ever,,using RCBS dies I turned the necks down .001 at a time until when I sized a case and raised the handle I could just barely feel the expander ball come through the neck,,the ammo loaded like this was the very best ammo I ever loaded,,
 
#30
RyeDaddy said:
I agree with all you said about bushing dies except the part I quoted above. Bushing dies even if using the expander ball work the neck brass less than a store bought FL standard die if you select the correct bushing. Which in time means less annealing, trimming and less case failures.

Most people are not aware how far down a standard FL die sizes the neck before the expander brings it back up to size. In a 308, my Forster FL die sizes the neck OD down to around 0.328, and the expander brings it back up to 0.336 for Lapua brass. I can get less case growth (and presumably less work-hardening) by using a 0.334" bushing with the expander.

Just putting it out there for informational purposes. Whether or not it's worth the extra money is up to the end user.
Click to expand...

Yeah i agree with that. I guess im one that doesnt feel its worth it.

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#32
I have a set FL without the bushing. I am pretty new to rifle reloading but I love them. They are the smoothest operating dies I have come across. My loads have performed better than I had anticipated as well. The seater allows for more precision than I would ever expect or even think necessary. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a set. They are great I doubt you would be disappointed.
 
#33
Received some goodies today! I already batch sized all of my match brass, so I haven't run anything through the sizing die yet. I did just load up 50 rounds, and I think I love the seating die. So far, it's loaded everything dead nutz to the depth I set. So far I'm super happy with my purchase, but we will see once I start sizing stuff in a week or so (waiting on my Bushy ERS to get cerakoted and shipped from CSTactical) :)
 

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#35
with the correct size bushing you can size the brass down to where the expander ball will just barely open the neck and greatly reduce the amount of working of the brass which will greatly aid case life,,,you can work your expander ball to get the neck tension you want or you can turn necks,,brass is just to expensive to squeeze it down ..020 and back out .017 to get .003 tension when you could squeeze it down .006 and back out .003 to get the same .003 tension,,
 
#36
mrbig said:
with the correct size bushing you can size the brass down to where the expander ball will just barely open the neck and greatly reduce the amount of working of the brass which will greatly aid case life,,,you can work your expander ball to get the neck tension you want or you can turn necks,,brass is just to expensive to squeeze it down ..020 and back out .017 to get .003 tension when you could squeeze it down .006 and back out .003 to get the same .003 tension,,
Click to expand...

This.

Also, with the bushing die, you can take the bushing out and use it as a body die. Why you ask? To body size the case and then use a Lee collet die to neck size it. If you aren't turning necks, the Lee collet die is the best way to get consistent neck tension, in my opinion. Try it. They are cheap.

I have a set of Whidden .308 dies. They are great dies. The seater has great adjustment.
 
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