Night Vision White Phosphor Vs. Green Phosphor

[Delta4-3]

Here are a couple images from two Armasight PVS-14's, one with a high spec Pinnacle tube, one with a Gen 3 white phosphor tube.
These are just a couple images taken at the same time for comparison. It was not really that dark, but it was overcast (you can see the clouds in the pictures) putting the overall darkness at 70% or thereabouts. I am mainly using these as a place holder for a continuing thread. I will continue to take pictures between the two throughout the week and post them up with conditions listed.
As a side note, I must have lost something uploading from my phone. The pinnacle tube that looks a little grainy in the pictures is the same tube that I have posted some really clear pictures of here in the past. All pictures in the thread taken with an iPhone 4s.
These two are just in the front yard. The one of the flag is to show resolution.

 

[10p5s]

Nice comparison pics, it will be great to see more. Actually I wonder what is the main advantage of white phosphor screen instead of green? The resolution seems better in white but what additional advantages are there for the white one?

 

[Delta4-3]

Nice comparison pics, it will be great to see more. Actually I wonder what is the main advantage of white phosphor screen instead of green? The resolution seems better in white but what additional advantages are there for the white one?

The main advantage is personal preference. White phosphor has been a sore subject on the internet for years, due to poor marketing practices of some manufacturers and dealers. They were claiming it to be far superior to green phosphor, when in reality the color is just different. The opposite is true as well. You have people saying that it is garbage or holds no advantage "because the military doesn't use it" which was also false. The white phosphor is a little softer on your eye. Another misconception that you would hear online a lot is that white phosphor is harder on your naturally adapted night vision and causes more eye fatigue than green. This is untrue as well, and is one of the reasons certain elements of the military are using white phosphor units.

In my experience, one is not really better than the other. I have used green long enough that I wouldn't just switch over to white exclusively, but I like it. There are certain details that do stand out a little better in white phosphor, and there are certain details that seem to show up better in green.

Now that L3 is catching up on production on the 'Chrome' tubes, you are starting to see them become commercially available (for only $200 more) and the stigma is falling away. The L3 tubes are absolutely phenomenal and once they are easier to obtain without a lead time, I think you will see a lot more people using WP. A set of PVS-31's with WP tubes for only $200 more? I can live with that.

 

[Rancid Coolaid]

Having used both, green more than white, I will say that coming off the scope is much easier with the green than the white. I have used the white in the field and come off the scope after an hour of continuous use, to find that I need several minutes for that eye to adjust back to darkness. With the green, there is some "come-down" but not nearly as much, and not nearly as acute.

I have used both, I run traditional now by choice. I like the image on the white at least as much, if not more, but do not like the readjustment after coming off a white scope.

Maybe I need to dial back the gain.

Others have different experiences, obviously; this is mine.

 

[10p5s]

The main advantage is personal preference. White phosphor has been a sore subject on the internet for years, due to poor marketing practices of some manufacturers and dealers. They were claiming it to be far superior to green phosphor, when in reality the color is just different. The opposite is true as well. You have people saying that it is garbage or holds no advantage "because the military doesn't use it" which was also false. The white phosphor is a little softer on your eye. Another misconception that you would hear online a lot is that white phosphor is harder on your naturally adapted night vision and causes more eye fatigue than green. This is untrue as well, and is one of the reasons certain elements of the military are using white phosphor units.

In my experience, one is not really better than the other. I have used green long enough that I wouldn't just switch over to white exclusively, but I like it. There are certain details that do stand out a little better in white phosphor, and there are certain details that seem to show up better in green.

Now that L3 is catching up on production on the 'Chrome' tubes, you are starting to see them become commercially available (for only $200 more) and the stigma is falling away. The L3 tubes are absolutely phenomenal and once they are easier to obtain without a lead time, I think you will see a lot more people using WP. A set of PVS-31's with WP tubes for only $200 more? I can live with that.

I see, so it is completely personal preference as you said. I never used white phosphor but from the videos from youtube it seems like resolution is better and good for my eyes. And do you know anything about photonis onyx tubes? I think they are same concept of L3 chrome tubes. And for L3 tubes when approximately do you think it will be out commercially?

 

[Delta4-3]

Having used both, green more than white, I will say that coming off the scope is much easier with the green than the white. I have used the white in the field and come off the scope after an hour of continuous use, to find that I need several minutes for that eye to adjust back to darkness. With the green, there is some "come-down" but not nearly as much, and not nearly as acute.

I have used both, I run traditional now by choice. I like the image on the white at least as much, if not more, but do not like the readjustment after coming off a white scope.

Maybe I need to dial back the gain.

Others have different experiences, obviously; this is mine.

That actually brings up a good point that I meant to mention above but got sidetracked. The issue of your night adapted night vision being altered actually has several variables. For instance, an Ekran gen 2 White phosphor tube is a lot more "white" than say a photonis, which kind of has a blue hue to it, thus making the latter much easier on the eye. Same with the new L3 tubes, they are much softer. In the end, you hit the nail on the head. We all have different eyes and experience viewing differently. I use both, but I prefer green because it seems more natural to me after using it for years.

 

[Delta4-3]

I see, so it is completely personal preference as you said. I never used white phosphor but from the videos from youtube it seems like resolution is better and good for my eyes. And do you know anything about photonis onyx tubes? I think they are same concept of L3 chrome tubes. And for L3 tubes when approximately do you think it will be out commercially?

You can actually get the L3 tubes now, it's just that most people charge a premium for them and there is generally a pretty long lead time. I have only seen the Onyx tubes, but very little. My first impression is that they have qualities as the L3, just not as high performing.

 

[Delta4-3]

I had big plans to go out and get some pictures of deer last night, but could barely find the motivation to hit up the back yard. Anyways, I went out to my daughter's chicken house and took a couple pictures with each through the iPhone 4s. The first set is of chicken wire about two feet away. It is not interesting, just something for you to gauge resolution by. Interesting to note, they both looked the same brightness when taking the picture, but the WP looks darker now. Next is just a picture in the coop. It is really, really dark in there. Looking through the eyepiece of both units, I could see just fine with no illumination, though there was some noise. But, when I looked at the phone, nothing would show up without the illuminator. Keep in mind, the SNR of the Pinnacle tube is 30. It has me thinking that I should probably FINALLY upgrade my phone.

I promise I'll get some motivation this week and go out and actually get pictures. As soon as I feel better I am going to go through my CQB'ish course with a carbine and pistol, and film with both units.

 

[Delta4-3]

Nice comparison pics, it will be great to see more. Actually I wonder what is the main advantage of white phosphor screen instead of green? The resolution seems better in white but what additional advantages are there for the white one?

I forgot to mention yesterday that one thing that makes the white look better to the eye, especially when looking at something darker colored, is the contrast. There is more apparent contrast between white and black than green and black when looking at something dark. I wont ever transition completely from green, but I do enjoy using the white phosphor units.

Recoil Magazine will be covering our night vision event in October. I am going to set them up with both white phosphor and green phosphor units to film with.

 

[compasscall]

Delta4-3,

Good to see some quality WP shots, thanks for taking the time to take and post them up!

Your approach is very much appreciated.

The WP shots are through an L3 unflmed 'CHROME'?

 

[Delta4-3]

Delta4-3,

Good to see some quality WP shots, thanks for taking the time to take and post them up!

Your approach is very much appreciated.

The WP shots are through an L3 unflmed 'CHROME'?

Thank you kindly sir!
They are actually not through an L3 tube. I have one coming, which I will do the same thing with though, when it comes in in the near eternity. I haven't pulled the 14 apart, but I would guess it is a foreign tube. It didn't come with a data sheet, but on paper I suspect the Pinnacle I am using is performing at a much higher level. In real life, I cant tell much difference. I can tell that there is a little more noise in the image of the white phosphor unit when it is really, really dark, like it was late last night. The fact that they perform so closely actually surprises me a little, but this unit seems to be on par with the other gen 3 white phosphor units I have got from them.

The L3 units do outperform this specific Pinnacle tube, because I put it side by side with a WP PVS-31. The noticeable difference was clarity and contrast, but it was not a large margin.

I will do my best to get out and get some pictures with more exciting subjects. Then again, you don't see a lot of chicken night vision pictures!

 

[Delta4-3]

Sorry, no new pics from last night...I was lazy again. My oldest daughter is turning 7 and wants to go on a date with me for her birthday present...let's hope she is content hitting the drive through then going on a NV expedition!

 

[Delta4-3]

Some images through both tubes of the X400v in action. Distance to tree line, 90 yards.
(Just wanted to add, this is the Photonis tube.)

Because the Photonis tube (even more so with the L3 Chrome) has a subtle bluish coloring, I don't notice it being any harder on my eye than a green phosphor tube. It has a really mellow, smooth look to it. It also has manual gain, that helps, just as it does with a green tube.

 

[Douglas-001]

Delta 4-3, the more I read up on this subject, the more I am learning through your detailed posts and pictures. Hope you and your daughter had a great time and I am an authorized distributor of cast iron frying pans that will work great on any goons that, eventually, may come sniffin' around courting your girl. Amazing how you can even see the wires on the poles in the back round. Like I said before, thanks for the help navigating these deep waters! Good luck and good shooting!

Doug

 

[Delta4-3]

Delta 4-3, the more I read up on this subject, the more I am learning through your detailed posts and pictures. Hope you and your daughter had a great time and I am an authorized distributor of cast iron frying pans that will work great on any goons that, eventually, may come sniffin' around courting your girl. Amazing how you can even see the wires on the poles in the back round. Like I said before, thanks for the help navigating these deep waters! Good luck and good shooting!

Doug

Thanks Doug!
We had a pretty good time. We didn't actually go out and use any night vision, that is kind of my middle daughter's thing. But, we did tear up a few molten chocolate lava cakes (or whatever they are called) at Chilies'.
I have three girls, so I will have my hands full. The frying pans may be a better plan than the one I had. I was just going to get a bunch of gory pictures from the wild west days in Iraq and AFG blown up, and hang them all over my house.

 

[pawprint2]

Delta 4-3, are you saying the white light from WP has less effect on the night adaptation (rhodopsin) than green (blue/ green) light? Can you point me to a study? I remember when Red light was used as the only light source while night adaptation was being achieved, the Army quickly changed, and went to Blue Green, to include millions of dollars spent on Aircraft night lighting, once Blue Green light was proven to have a less detrimental effect, i.e. destroying the level of the eye's rhodopsin. Less time was needed to recover (restore) full night adaptation (fully restoring a SM's rhodopsin aka visual purple) when exposes to blue green light, than to red, and both being far superior to white.
I agree that when comparing green vs white, which one can ID details etc. could be subjective given the same quality of tube etc., but in so far as the time necessary for a human eye to recover to a state of night adaptation, this is measurable and definitive. The Aero Medical Research guys at Ft. Rucker Alabama, are leaders in this type of research.

 

[Delta4-3]

Delta 4-3, are you saying the white light from WP has less effect on the night adaptation (rhodopsin) than green (blue/ green) light? Can you point me to a study? I remember when Red light was used as the only light source while night adaptation was being achieved, the Army quickly changed, and went to Blue Green, to include millions of dollars spent on Aircraft night lighting, once Blue Green light was proven to have a less detrimental effect, i.e. destroying the level of the eye's rhodopsin. Less time was needed to recover (restore) full night adaptation (fully restoring a SM's rhodopsin aka visual purple) when exposes to blue green light, than to red, and both being far superior to white.
I agree that when comparing green vs white, which one can ID details etc. could be subjective given the same quality of tube etc., but in so far as the time necessary for a human eye to recover to a state of night adaptation, this is measurable and definitive. The Aero Medical Research guys at Ft. Rucker Alabama, are leaders in this type of research.

Hey pawprint,
No, I hope my statements weren't misleading. I try to be careful on the topic of white vs. green phosphor. Here is what I mean, and it is purely subjective, because it is nothing but my own opinion after having used both quite a bit.
White Phosphor tubes have a history of being very hard on your night adaptation. My point was that the more modern white phosphor tubes such as the Photonis tube in this thread, or the new L3 tubes, are not any harder on my eyes than green, BECAUSE, they are more of a soft bluish color than they are white. That said, I don't mean that these white tubes are better by any means, they're just not any worse. The last picture I posted really shows the best "real life" view through the tube, with it's blue coloration.

I'm quite confident that if I took a group of people and put both in their hands, they wouldn't all come to the same conclusion.

Of the guys I personally know that are issued the L-3 WP tubes, most of them seem to be pretty happy with that change. A large part of that has to do with just how good those white tubes are, even in comparison to some of the tubes that they replaced.

That was a good question, thanks for asking it!

 

[pawprint2]

Thanks for the answer. I believe far too many civilian users of NV devices are "in the dark" (pun intended) as to the importance of night vision adaptation, prior to the use of NV devices/night work. Several months ago ( in south Georgia) I was invited to hunt with some younger men, that had just gotten some damn fine night scopes, one was a rebuilt Thermal, other NV gen 3 tube. We started talking about night adaptation, while these guys were sharp, they had never been educated on the science of night vision adaptation.
While most Americans don't know that a Nobel prize was given for the research that gave us the science of Rhodopsin and how the eye worked, I 'll give you that, but, the simple things like how long it takes to have your eyes fully (100% for you) night adapted, or the cumulative effects of bright light etc. etc., appears to only be known by those that used this type of equipment in the Military. Regardless of the type, or grade of your night scopes, you'll get far more enjoyment-practical use out of them if you start you night adaptation during the day, and not 10 minutes prior to spotting a target!

 

[Delta4-3]

Thanks for the answer. I believe far too many civilian users of NV devices are "in the dark" (pun intended) as to the importance of night vision adaptation, prior to the use of NV devices/night work. Several months ago ( in south Georgia) I was invited to hunt with some younger men, that had just gotten some damn fine night scopes, one was a rebuilt Thermal, other NV gen 3 tube. We started talking about night adaptation, while these guys were sharp, they had never been educated on the science of night vision adaptation.
While most Americans don't know that a Nobel prize was given for the research that gave us the science of Rhodopsin and how the eye worked, I 'll give you that, but, the simple things like how long it takes to have your eyes fully (100% for you) night adapted, or the cumulative effects of bright light etc. etc., appears to only be known by those that used this type of equipment in the Military. Regardless of the type, or grade of your night scopes, you'll get far more enjoyment-practical use out of them if you start you night adaptation during the day, and not 10 minutes prior to spotting a target!

I couldn't agree more! That is where a monocular shines...one eye is night adapted. There are many instances where I prefer dual tube goggles, but there are still plenty of times when I would choose a monocular, just so that I can have one eye adapted to the dark. (other reasons as well) One of the biggest things to me when teaching people to use night vision, even LE that never got the NV training that the military has access to, is how much they forget that they have other senses. The focus on that 40* circle and don't utilize their other eye, their peripheral vision, and mostly their ears. NV is a an aid. You can't get tunnel vision, focusing on the green glow, and forget that you have other natural abilities.

 

[TestnDoc]

How much is your L3 Filmless white tube??

 

[Delta4-3]

How much is your L3 Filmless white tube??

I don't have them in yet, but I can get a price for you.

 

[TestnDoc]

Please do