Who is liable for insurance when shipping?

[Mister Ridge]

I keep seeing disclaimers on gunbroker auctions stating that insurance is not included and/or costs extra. Not just from private individuals but also businesses.

One in particular was concerning to see because it looked like they wouldn't accept credit card payments if you wanted to fully insure the rifle. I'm not going to buy that particular rifle, mostly because it has hit crack smoking prices, but I generally prefer credit card for these types of transactions just so I have some protection from fraud. But suppose I did buy it and it never showwd up, or showed up damaged. Would the seller be able to stop a chargeback with those terms listed?

 

[Maggot]

Usually its up to whoever agrees to do that. Problem, if seller agrees and its a scam it doesnt matter, youre fucked.

Use discretion, and like youre doing, ask questions. Does anyone here have a history with the selle"

 

[charbroiled]

Lost some 22LR ammo a while back when Buds didn't insure the package and wanted money from me to do so. I declined, never really had any issues before. Well, wuhan flu makes new thieves and it got "lost". UPS was worthless and I should have insured the package. Never thought about disputing it with CC company. Denying payment seems to be a grey area to me because they offered insurance and I declined it.

 

[smoothy8500]

Two times I have had to use the US Postal insurance on items I shipped. Glad I usually add the cost of insurance to the shipping.

 

[Holliday]

This is a SCAM….

I have been doing e-commerce for 21 years. The burden for insurance is MINE as a seller/shipper. I choose the shipping method, I pack the package etc.

Paypal, Visa, Mastercard and any other card company will back this up with a chargeback if the consumer goes that route. I self insure small packages and large packages I charge enough to cover it.

Some e-commerce sites have been doing this cute trick where the sell and “optional” upgrade to insure the package through a third party. They are saying if you don’t buy the upgrade you are out of luck. If there is a loss then YOU must deal with a THIRD PARTY, that you were coerced into signing a contract with. This is not going to end well for the consumer if it becomes the norm.

Consumers should take note on who is passing this pass-the-buck game and go elsewhere. I have been taking notes on who pulls this crap and shop elsewhere, unless it’s an item I can’t get somewhere else.

These shenanigans will become the norm is consumers allow it.

 

[Holliday]

Two times I have had to use the US Postal insurance on items I shipped. Glad I usually add the cost of insurance to the shipping.

People dump on USPS but if you play your cards right the insurance is solid.

 

[StaveyIL]

I always ship over insured and packaged in a complete layer of tape. Mainly due to Usps being the worst shipping service on the planet. Until the product reaches the buyers hand . It’s the responsibility of the seller to
A. Make sure the product arrives and the buyer gets what they paid for.
B. If lost etc.. It is the seller that is responsible for the insurance claim and refund to the buyer.
If anyone has a disclaimer stating otherwise. Simply shop elsewhere.

 

[Holliday]

Lost some 22LR ammo a while back when Buds didn't insure the package and wanted money from me to do so. I declined, never really had any issues before. Well, wuhan flu makes new thieves and it got "lost". UPS was worthless and I should have insured the package. Never thought about disputing it with CC company. Denying payment seems to be a grey area to me because they offered insurance and I declined it.

UPS has an automatic $100 on every package. Buds scammed you.

The card company would have backed you. Don’t ASSUME……

 

[nn8734]

Use caution when dealing with folks on GB as the GB buyer protection only covers $400.00 worth; anything above that is at risk.

Most forum-based classified sections are FOB-Destination which means the seller is responsible/accountable for ensuring that the shipment makes it to the buyer unharmed. As a seller, i always put full insurance on the package at replacement cost so i can reimburse the buyer if things go sideways and package shows up damaged or never shows up.

I also use my CC to further protect myself ss a buyer in case shit happens…

 

[Hobo Hilton]

A "Bill of Lading" specifies who the Shipper is. Should there be damage to the cargo, the shipper must file the claim.
Have the seller list you as the shipper and you insure the shipment.
Should there be damage or loss, you (The shipper) file the claim.

Basically when the drayage company accepts the shipment, it belongs to you.

 

[cooper barrett]

My Totum speakers were sent in for service and were destroyed in return shipping, UPS delivered a brand new set with a note that apologized for the inconvenience.

UPS was great, saw they were damaged, contacted shipper and they handled everything.

 

[Basher]

Depends.

YEARS ago when I was still pretty new here (and to selling online in general), I sold a Leupold to someone. It got lost in transit so I posted here asking who was responsible for it and the consensus was that I was as the seller, which I’d generally agree with. Thankfully that scope managed to reappear and everyone was happy. Lesson learned.

The exception in my mind is if you EXPLICITLY STATE IN THE AD as a seller that insurance is extra. If you clearly state that and they don’t say they want it, IMO it’s on the buyer because I told them it was on them and they elected to pass. In the rare occasion I list an ad in that manner and the buyer doesn’t mention it one way or the other, I’ll verify during comms before funds are exchanged. If that’s not INCREDIBLY clear in the ad or during comms, the seller is responsible for ensuring the item purchased either makes it to the buyer or they have a way of reimbursing them if it gets lost/damaged. That’s how I normally roll.

 

[W54/XM-388]

I keep seeing disclaimers on gunbroker auctions stating that insurance is not included and/or costs extra. Not just from private individuals but also businesses.

One in particular was concerning to see because it looked like they wouldn't accept credit card payments if you wanted to fully insure the rifle. I'm not going to buy that particular rifle, mostly because it has hit crack smoking prices, but I generally prefer credit card for these types of transactions just so I have some protection from fraud. But suppose I did buy it and it never showwd up, or showed up damaged. Would the seller be able to stop a chargeback with those terms listed?

Let me cut through all the B.S. and what iffs and make you look at the honest truth about yourself.

Most buyers are reprobate cheapskates (sure me too).
TL/DR
Sellers: always ship insured, even if it simply means hiking the price on the item to cover the insurance, unless you can be fine with the loss.
Buyers: quit being reprobate cheapskates and just pay for the carrier insurance.

Let's say on here you buy some optic or rifle or something that is like $4k and the seller is actually being fully upfront on all the costs, assuming you are not a stupid idiot that thinks "free everything" says, okay shipping is $28, now would you like that insured with the carrier when it's sent, if you would, it's about $30 extra.

(Yes we can get all on about "free shipping" and "included insurance" but if you are intelligent you understand that's all a lie, someone has to pay for it and what it usually means is the seller has those things priced into the cost of the item.)

Now you might be like, no I don't want to pay that extra $30 for insurance, I'm good just send it.

YOU are agreeing with the seller that you will accept the loss if it's lost or damaged in transit.

(Now if you are in the business world lots of other companies will say, well we aren't paying for shipping insurance and we won't let you put shipping insurance on it if you are using our account because we have our own separate shipping insurance or are self insured. To which I answer firmly, Tough luck, it's going out insured on our account and I'll add the charges to the invoice or it's going on your account with carrier insurance or you can go buy it from someone else).

BUT in decades of doing this, I've NEVER once seen a buyer be a stand up honour their word person and admit, I chose not to pay for insurance and agreed to take the risk and well I lost my gamble. NEVER once!

ALWAYS the buyer will be trying to fuck the seller over, even in cases where you have a signed PO from the buyer saying do not ship with insurance, we won't pay for insurance and we agree to be responsible for any loss.

In EVERY single fucking case, the buyer says well fuck you to the seller and proceeds to do everything they can to screw over the seller.

I would bet good money YOU would also do the exact same thing if you were the buyer, you'd be whining here on the forum about not getting stuff and such, seeing how you could do chargebacks etc, regardless of the terms you agreed to.

So in the end, if you are a seller, ALWAYS ship things insured and if the cheapskate buyers refuse to pay for insurance, just hike the price of the item to include the insurance and sell it to someone else, unless you are big enough and have your accounting and risk department setup to be able to be fine with writing off the costs of stuff every so often (which if you do it right can be cheaper than insurance if you are making sure to make up your products to cover that insurance cost).

If you are the buyer, stop being a cheapskate and just make sure it's shipped insured even if that means you have to pay a tiny bit extra.
That way it's going to be a lot less animosity between you and the seller if something happens because they can try (sometimes unsuccessfully) to make the carrier pay for the loss / damage.

If the seller won't ship insured (even if you offer to pay) and aren't a big enough operation to legit be self insured and want a bit more "final" payment methods, you might just want to find something else from someone else.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Depends.

YEARS ago when I was still pretty new here (and to selling online in general), I sold a Leupold to someone. It got lost in transit so I posted here asking who was responsible for it and the consensus was that I was as the seller, which I’d generally agree with. Thankfully that scope managed to reappear and everyone was happy. Lesson learned.

The exception in my mind is if you EXPLICITLY STATE IN THE AD as a seller that insurance is extra. If you clearly state that and they don’t say they want it, IMO it’s on the buyer because I told them it was on them and they elected to pass. In the rare occasion I list an ad in that manner and the buyer doesn’t mention it one way or the other, I’ll verify during comms before funds are exchanged.

You'd be an utter fool to believe that any buyer will honour that agreement, no matter how explicit or how much confirmation you had, especially if it's an expensive item.
(perhaps if it's someone you know really well, maybe who knows, but probably still not).

You can bet good money they would be on here blackballing you and demanding the mods ban you and trying every possible method and lie to do a chargeback.

Just make it easy on yourself, hike the price by whatever insurance is going to cost, and hike the price by whatever shipping is going to cost and tell the buyers they are getting "free insured shipping".
Most folks are stupid and cheapskates and totally go for that. (As WELL proven in eCommerce studies).

 

[Arc Light]

If I buy from an individual, and it's a good deal, I have no problem paying extra for insurance if the buyer is not including it. I figure I'm already getting a great price.

From a business, however, I expect insurance to be included in the shipping costs as a part of doing business. When I shop on Gun Broker two things I refuse to do are pay the credit card fee or pay extra for insurance. These are business expenses that should be factored into the price. There are plenty of reputable sellers to choose from that don't do this.

 

[Gommer]

In the particular case referenced, the seller stated the item would not be insured and by bidding you are accepting that term. Odd to not accept credit cards if buying insurance, I’d think that a typo and rather he is requiring insurance be bought if paying by cc. Maybe that’s what you said and I read it wrong.

I shipped a scope the other day, insured it as $300 and that cost me $7.95. So I can imagine an expensive rifle… but, I figured it’s that expensive for a reason, better buy it. A few years ago that’d have added maybe $2.

 

[W54/XM-388]

When I shop on Gun Broker two things I refuse to do are pay the credit card fee or pay extra for insurance. These are business expenses that should be factored into the price. There are plenty of reputable sellers to choose from that don't do this.

Sure be on your high horse about it, that's a pretty common sentiment for retail consumers.
All it means in you prefer some "bundled" price that makes you feel happy.
ALL those costs are paid by you in the end, bundled or not.
All "business expenses" have to be passed on to the "customers" in one way or another for the business to be viable.

You want to use your credit card, sure no problem, most folks don't realize there is pretty much a de facto 3% national sales tax on everything you buy, paid to the biggest banks in the country. People are blissfully ignorant when it's bundled into the cost, but it directly comes out of their pockets it's NOT some "business expense". Most folks in the country prefer to simply have that tax to the big banks bundled silently into every purchase they make and most business dealing with consumers have been bullied into doing that, so it's standard practice.

Now you move to the world of bigger commerce where you might be buying $100k or more in a single transaction from a supplier, all of the sudden those costs are a fair bit more, and so if you are smart you want everything broken out, do you want to pay $3,000 to use your credit card, or do you know the supplier well enough that you'll send them a bank transfer for $1 cost instead? (You'll find places like EuroOptic and other vendors here understand that and on bigger purchases are willing to take out that cost of at least the credit card fees if you pay via bank transfer instead).

When shipping and insurance may be several thousand dollars, you might want to see the cost broken out and shop it around between their carrier and your carriers based on what carrier gives the better rate on shipping and on insurance and is more reliable etc, because you might save another $500 or so and still have the same shipping / insurance.

 

[FredHammer]

There’s the really nasty buyer type out there that dispute the charge, even when the item received ok. The disputed charge first goes back to buyer, leaving the seller to enter a goat fuck to get the money for the item.

 

[Mister Ridge]

In the particular case referenced, the seller stated the item would not be insured and by bidding you are accepting that term. Odd to not accept credit cards if buying insurance, I’d think that a typo and rather he is requiring insurance be bought if paying by cc. Maybe that’s what you said and I read it wrong.

I shipped a scope the other day, insured it as $300 and that cost me $7.95. So I can imagine an expensive rifle… but, I figured it’s that expensive for a reason, better buy it. A few years ago that’d have added maybe $2.

It's spelled out pretty specifically that the quoted shipping price only inlcudes the minimum carrier insurance, fully insuring the rifle would require contact before payment, and that payment could then only be by money order or certified check. This is from a dealer. I'd link it but I don't think that's allowed.

 

[Docsherm]

It is very simple. The transaction is for the item to get to the buyer. Even if the shipper has a disclaimer that you pay for insurance and you decline it they are still responsible.

I had a transaction with Brownells and they wanted a stupid amount for insurance, I am not cheap but the amount was like 20% of the order. I declined the insurance, and the USPS lost the item at the Hub near me. I called Brownells and they told me to contact te USPS, as I did and USPS told me to contact the shipper to open a claim. I did that and Brownells said that I declined insurance and it was on me. I called my Bank and filed a dispute. Added a copy of the invoice and the tracking information. I had my money returned in 48 hours.

Very simple indeed.

 

[Gommer]

It's spelled out pretty specifically that the quoted shipping price only inlcudes the minimum carrier insurance, fully insuring the rifle would require contact before payment, and that payment could then only be by money order or certified check. This is from a dealer. I'd link it but I don't think that's allowed.

Yeah, that's not someone I'd work with -- sounds fishy.

 

[NiteQwill]

I ALWAYS include insurance when shipping items I sell. It's always the responsibility of the seller to do so.

A chargeback by a CC will always side with the consumer if a package goes lost and no insurance was provided.

 

[Basher]

You'd be an utter fool to believe that any buyer will honour that agreement, no matter how explicit or how much confirmation you had, especially if it's an expensive item.
(perhaps if it's someone you know really well, maybe who knows, but probably still not).

You can bet good money they would be on here blackballing you and demanding the mods ban you and trying every possible method and lie to do a chargeback.

Just make it easy on yourself, hike the price by whatever insurance is going to cost, and hike the price by whatever shipping is going to cost and tell the buyers they are getting "free insured shipping".
Most folks are stupid and cheapskates and totally go for that. (As WELL proven in eCommerce studies).

Sure, and that’s what I normally do. The cases in which I’d mention insurance was on the buyer would be quite rare IMO and I’ve only done it a small handful of times for the reasons you state.

That being said, decades of positive feedback, keeping records of all comms in case of disputes, and sending expensive items certified/registered/signature required also tends to help cover my A. Documentation has covered my end before when a deal went sour due to a dishonest buyer/seller even when I did everything right. That’s the other side of the “fool” coin, not documenting EVERYTHING when buying/selling online these days.

 

[W54/XM-388]

It is very simple. The transaction is for the item to get to the buyer. Even if the shipper has a disclaimer that you pay for insurance and you decline it they are still responsible.

I had a transaction with Brownells and they wanted a stupid amount for insurance, I am not cheap but the amount was like 20% of the order. I declined the insurance, and the USPS lost the item at the Hub near me. I called Brownells and they told me to contact te USPS, as I did and USPS told me to contact the shipper to open a claim. I did that and Brownells said that I declined insurance and it was on me. I called my Bank and filed a dispute. Added a copy of the invoice and the tracking information. I had my money returned in 48 hours.

Very simple indeed.

You are exactly the type of buyer I warn sellers against and why they need to protect themselves.
YOU specifically refused insurance because you didn't want to pay for it.
YOU agreed to the terms of the sale.

Then when things didn't go your way and your gamble failed, of course YOU don't have any qualms about screwing over the seller, because you don't actually care about honouring the contract you agreed to, you just want yours and screw everyone else and you know in the end it's not cost effective for the seller to hold you to the terms of the contract.

That being said, it is not right of Brownells to let you have insurance be optional. Completely stupid. BUT I have a clue it's a new "profit thing" that some stupid young college pukes came up with when listening to some B.S. professor who never ran a business.
What I'm suspecting that the stupid new MBA pukes came up with is, technically Brownells is big enough to be self insured, they know the risks and the loss ratios and such. So the plan is they partner with some stupid expensive "3rd party insurance company" that charges huge rates and gives a kickback to Brownells on each "insurance" purchase.
Then the money they get is extra free profit.
If someone makes a claim and they didn't pay the extra insurance, they tell them to get stuffed. They know there is a good chance of a chargeback if the person presses it, but that is counted against all the excess profits from their "3rd party insurance" kickbacks.
So Seller is being an ass,
Buyer is being an ass,
They both deserve each other.
On commercial rates usually insurance is about 1% of the insured value after the initial hump (usually $4 or so minimum jump)
So if they are shipping you $3k of stuff the insurance should be around $30 total.
Now that being said, on low value items, it's an issue, USPS parcel post to a residential address might be $4
But to do insurance, you might now be looking at $17 for a tracked, insured carrier service.
So on small stuff, you often are best bumping the prices to cover expected losses and fraud.
People like YOU are EXACTLY why I warn sellers to always ship insured and pass the cost on to the customer either directly or bundled into the price because people like you exist and they need to protect themselves.

Thanks for being a perfect case in point to the arguments I made above.

 

[Docsherm]

You are exactly the type of buyer I warn sellers against and why they need to protect themselves.
YOU specifically refused insurance because you didn't want to pay for it.
YOU agreed to the terms of the sale.

Then when things didn't go your way and your gamble failed, of course YOU ripped off the seller without a shred of conscience.
Because you don't care about honouring the contract you agreed to, you just want yours and screw everyone else.

People like YOU are EXACTLY why I warn sellers to always ship insured and pass the cost on to the customer either directly or bundled into the price because people like you exist and they need to protect themselves.

Thanks for being a perfect case in point to the arguments I made above.

I agreed to the terms, that I would take responsibility for it..... I did. I got my money back with no help from them.


If I buy something that needs to be shipped the transaction is not over until I get it. If we go back to Cash on Delivery, I bet YOU would pay for the insurance yourself as a shipper. Well?

Increase your [price to cover insurance and most people will go elsewhere......... That is the nature of the beast. It is a buyers market.

 

[Sean the Nailer]

This thread is INCREDIBLY good for seeing who's on the "Deal With" and "Don't EVER Deal With" lists. Thanks OP.

 

[W54/XM-388]

I agreed to the terms, that I would take responsibility for it..... I did. I got my money back with no help from them.


If I buy something that needs to be shipped the transaction is not over until I get it. If we go back to Cash on Delivery, I bet YOU would pay for the insurance yourself as a shipper. Well?

Increase your [price to cover insurance and most people will go elsewhere......... That is the nature of the beast. It is a buyers market.

I always do insurance when I ship (if it's something I'm not willing to write off) and if it's anything big, I'll do adult signature required as well.
I've been doing this for a very long time and understand well your kind (which is most).
In dealing with the front lines of eCommerce, you learn quickly to protect yourself every which way possible, so you don't get screwed too badly.

You seem to think well tough they can just eat the losses because we want cheap. NO they will not survive as a business if that is not put into the end cost.
Depending on the carrier, company and packing policies, up to 10% of national orders may experience some problem in shipping. Very careful and strict packaging and customer vetting policies and rules on where things can be shipped to may drive that down significantly, but it still exists.
On our company end it's less than 1% because due to the value of the stuff we ship, we spend a lot of time and cost on packaging and customer / address vetting and sales risk calculations and using optional services from the carriers that tend to get better results.
Most companies don't want to do that because, at bigger scale a higher percent of problems in shipping is cheaper than having well paid intelligent folks doing the packing and packing supervision and training on packaging, as well as the costs of very protective packaging materials and containers.

In the end ALL of that has to be paid by the end consumer, so in the end the cost of the product has to rise to cover either insurance or losses or prevention.

Buyers think sellers need them regardless of how outlandish or demanding they are, but after a long time you learn that a small amount of buyers who are normally fully price whores, cause most of your problems and you don't need them, instead you focus on the better class of customers who don't mind paying a slight bit more from somewhere that charges more but because of that can give much better sales & support service and take care of things quicker and easier when there are problems.

 

[EddieNFL]

Experiences with sellers:

- Yes, we sent the wrong item, but return shipping is the customer's responsibility (won that one)
- I know I said the event would be on XX date, but I had to change it and the website specifically said NO REFUNDS. (won that one)
- There is no way we shipped you used parts (won that one)
- Sorry, we made a mistake and the price is actually XX dollars more. We'll simply make another charge to your card. (won that one)
- Yes, the description said everything needed was included, but that item was not in the picture so it's not included (won that one)
- Only one I lost involved a USPS MO for an item never received. PO is very good at wearing you down. As it was less than $50, I wrote it off

My favorite:

- Made an offer on a house. Inspector found about two-grand in needed safety repairs. Owner says he'll repair, but not at agreed price. Bought a different house. The first was on the market for 120 days that I know of.

Experiences with buyers:

- Your pictures suck. Post more if you want me to make an offer (sold to someone else)
- I know I lowballed you, but you should have given me an opportunity to pay asking before selling to someone else (sent a FU reply)
- Will you sell the stock without the rifle (see above)
- No need to use an FFL. No one will know it's a firearm. (see two previous responses)
- Insists on paypal after agreeing to buy despite ad stating NO PAYPAL (sold to someone else)

My favorite: Selling a house at the height of a seller's market. We'll pay your asking, but you cover all closing costs and leave the sound system. I'm sure the realtor did not pass along my exact words. Had four bids the next day and sold for 5K over asking.

The vast majority of my online transactions have been positive, reinforcing the 90/10 rule.

 

[cas6969]

I think it's often just a lucky rabbits foot that makes people feel better. I used to deal in a particular gun part, receiving them, working on them, sending them back. I always insured them. Post office never lost any. (Had one go astray, left in someone's bushes for a few weeks, one missing for a while because they put it in the guys detached garage. But 98% of the time when they went "missing", they were waiting at the post office for the person to pick up... without knowing it was there waiting to be picked up.)

I did the math one day and what I was essentially wasting on insurance in 6-8 months, would cover the cost of the part if it did get lost. Good luck providing estimates for the replacement cost, the manufacturer was the only game in town to replace it, other than paying a custom gunsmith 10 times as much to make one from scratch. And even if they paid, the insurance was for the item, not the labor having it installed / fitted or shipping to and from the factory, all of which easily added up to more than the part. So I decided I'd gamble my own money, stop buying the insurance and see what happened.

What happened was customers were very uneasy and very unhappy about. And rather than keep having to explain it all every time, I just started buying it again, wasting more money. 11 years, they never lost one.

 

[W54/XM-388]

I think it's often just a lucky rabbits foot that makes people feel better. I used to deal in a particular gun part, receiving them, working on them, sending them back. I always insured them. Post office never lost any. (Had one go astray, left in someone's bushes for a few weeks, one missing for a while because they put it in the guys detached garage. But 98% of the time when they went "missing", they were waiting at the post office for the person to pick up... without knowing it was there waiting to be picked up.)

I did the math one day and what I was essentially wasting on insurance in 6-8 months, would cover the cost of the part if it did get lost. Good luck providing estimates for the replacement cost, the manufacturer was the only game in town to replace it, other than paying a custom gunsmith 10 times as much to make one from scratch. And even if they paid, the insurance was for the item, not the labor having it installed / fitted or shipping to and from the factory, all of which easily added up to more than the part. So I decided I'd gamble my own money, stop buying the insurance and see what happened.

What happened was customers were very uneasy and very unhappy about. And rather than keep having to explain it all every time, I just started buying it again, wasting more money. 11 years, they never lost one.

Insurance is always priced to make a profit for the insurer.
At large scale, it often makes sense to self insure.
(Note that sometimes carriers have specific policies on how high insurance packages are treated and higher insured value stuff may be subject to more strict handling, logging and reporting requirements).

The question I have in your example, is let's say your customers were fine with your plan.

When your luck eventually ran out, and something on it's way to you or on it's way back got lost, would you have been good with promptly covering it out of your own pocket once it was determined it was lost in a final manner (or badly damaged)?

If that was the case, I'm a bit surprised (assuming it was clearly communicated to the customers) that your customers weren't happy with it & I wonder if it's because they didn't actually believe you would step up and cover it promptly (since that is not a usual case)?

 

[jrassy]

God damn W45, you are on top with this shit!
now I just bought 1000 rounds of 9mm from Classic Firearms for 320.00 bucks. I bought the insurance also. 900 rounds were removed from the box and the box was retapped with a different tape and delivered.
About 12 emails later I was refunded 239.00 to my CC.
So I paid 81.00 for 100 rounds of Fiocchici 9mm. They said they adjusted for tax and shipping in the credit Return.
I suggested they send me a 1000 round order again and I would pay for the additional 100 rounds/ tax / shipping. They said they didn’t have that brand anymore so could not.
Do I have any recourse? I’m agreeable to a deal but they seem to not deal.
I have purchased from them before no issues. Obviously chain of custody somebody got 900 rounds and I hate thieves.

 

[Holliday]

If I buy something that needs to be shipped the transaction is not over until I get it. If we go back to Cash on Delivery, I bet YOU would pay for the insurance yourself as a shipper. Well?

That is how I treat my customers. I have even covered customers that have had packages marked delivered, that they never received.

This game of passing the buck onto the consumer is just another tactic in the e-commerce war of “race to the bottom” pricing. Vendors fall for this because they think pricing is the only factor when “added value” is becoming increasingly more important to consumers.

Playing the “gotcha game” with consumers is really a stupid way to do business. If a customer purchases from me, my goal is for them to get their product come hell or high water, not to play games with their money.

Because really, what are we selling at the end of the day? The product? No, most of the time we are selling “feel good”. If the consumer feels good about their purchase experience, you have won the retail game. Try to make some money while you are at it but don’t play gotcha with your customers.

 

[BCP]

Responsibility is on the retailer/seller. Even if you are a private party selling a used item on such-and-such site.

I am not sure what businesses are doing with the "insurance is extra" schtick but I have seen it quite a bit.

 

[W54/XM-388]

God damn W45, you are on top with this shit!
now I just bought 1000 rounds of 9mm from Classic Firearms for 320.00 bucks. I bought the insurance also. 900 rounds were removed from the box and the box was retapped with a different tape and delivered.
About 12 emails later I was refunded 239.00 to my CC.
So I paid 81.00 for 100 rounds of Fiocchici 9mm. They said they adjusted for tax and shipping in the credit Return.
I suggested they send me a 1000 round order again and I would pay for the additional 100 rounds/ tax / shipping. They said they didn’t have that brand anymore so could not.
Do I have any recourse? I’m agreeable to a deal but they seem to not deal.
I have purchased from them before no issues. Obviously chain of custody somebody got 900 rounds and I hate thieves.

Since you purchased insurance, I'm assuming they purchased insurance, (assuming carrier insurance), when you make a claim for insurance with the carrier, you claim for both the cost of the lost goods as well as the shipping cost since they carrier didn't do their part of the shipping contract. Also, unless your state is crazy, usually when refunds are given, the sales tax is also refunded based the amount refunded.
Now if they are paying for 3rd party insurance, it better be at least as good as carrier insurance or they are stupid.

Now if they are actually just self insuring, then well it's a straight 90% of the order refund and they account the sales tax as refunded and counted against what they owe next month and done.

Realistically what they should do (and what I would do at our company), is if they have more of the product (or a similar priced similar product you agreed to take as a substitution), is ship you a replacement 1k and charge your CC what the extra cost (including tax) is for the 100 that you got.

Then if a replacement was not available, the best thing to do is either charge you again for what 100 pieces would have cost and then fully refund the other charge, or essentially refund you 90% of the previous charge.

I would probably suggest go put 100 rounds in their online shopping cart (if they still have it), go all the way through to the end of the check out process see what the total is and then kindly tell them that is what you are willing to be out and if they can't, please escalate it to your manager and if that doesn't work, you'll unfortunately have to do a payment dispute.

My suggestion is document everything in an e-mail with all the costs listed and broken out and what it would cost to just buy that 100 and see if someone intelligent doesn't get the hint and get it resolved so you don't have to go through a payment dispute which is a pain in the ass for them just as much as for you.

Intelligent CS managers know very well what they can and can't win on chargebacks and disputes and tend to get things taken care of if it's all clearly laid out and documented.

 

[TheGerman]

If I buy something from you and it's supposed to be sent to me; its on you to fucking figure that out.

It's on you until it hits my doorstep.

Anything else is you trying to skirt liability.

All of those 'insurance is extra' people A. don't actually buy the insurance and/or are skimming off of what they are charging for it and B. are literally seeing if you are fucking dumb enough to pay for insurance, for them.

If its lost/damaged/whatever in shipping, its on the seller. Fuck buying insurance on your behalf. You want insurance, go fucking buy it yourself.

 

[kenny1773]

now I just bought 1000 rounds of 9mm from Classic Firearms for 320.00 bucks. I bought the insurance also.

Why pay so much these days

FIOCCHI 9MM 115 GRAIN FMJ

Fiocchi FIOCCHI 9MM 115 GRAIN FMJ for sale from Shaw Armament Systems.

www.shawarms.com

I just bought 1000 rounds of Ammo Inc 9mm for $240, saw it for less than that 2 weeks later, but above link is Fiocchi if that is what you like.

 

[Nik H]

When I do a private sale for an expensive item that requires shipping, I always insure the package and price into the cost of what I am selling. There is no negotiation about that. I do so because if it does get lost, I know I will eventually get my money back. The benefit to the buyer is it allows me to refund their money should he desire me to do so.

As a buyer, your options are limited. As far as I know, shipping insurance is always connected to the sender of the package not the recipient. The sender gets reimbursed not the recipient. As a buyer, your only recourse against a bad seller is to file a claim with your credit card company. If you purchased using a money order, you're at the mercy of the seller whether he purchased insurance or not. You're more likely to get your money back if he insured it.

 

[jb0311]

If i sell something on here, it's on me to make sure it gets to you, in the condition I advertised it to be. I don't ask if you want insurance, I just pay for it when i'm shipping it. I, personally, think it's tacky to tell a buyer to pay extra if they want insurance. As a seller, it is my problem if something happens before the item gets to you. I'm most definitely going to be the one dealing with UPS, USPS, etc. if a claim has to be initiated. I also tend to keep scrolling if I see an item listed with the caveat "Insurance on the buyer". I realize not everyone feels this way, and that's fine. I account for shipping costs when listing an item. Sometimes i end up eating a few bucks, sometimes it comes out in my favor. It tends to even itself out. This seems to be a relatively recent "option" in e-commerce in my experience, from what I have seen from the websites i frequent. To me, it's just another excuse for a seller to wash their hands if something happens in transit, since filing claims is already such a pain in the dick. Just like e-sellers rode the "it's not my fault, it's because of covid" train as long as they could.

Again, it just rubs me the wrong way if a seller basically says, pay an extra $ if you want me to give a shit if you never see what i promised to have delivered to you.

 

[Holliday]

To me, it's just another excuse for a seller to wash their hands if something happens in transit, since filing claims is already such a pain in the dick. Just like e-sellers rode the "it's not my fault, it's because of covid" train as long as they could.

Exactly…..

 

[BurtG]

Shipping companies are a racket

It’s their job to ship the item



Imagine any other industry pulling this crap.
I can build your deck for $5000. Oh you want to make sure it actually gets built or isn’t half way destroyed when I get done building it ? That will be a extra $2500 “insurance “



I buy $50,000-300,000+ machinery. If the shipper doesn’t get it to me or it gets stolen off the low boy or he hits something with it. He pays for it.

What a crock

 

[BurtG]

People dump on USPS but if you play your cards right the insurance is solid.

Really?

I heard a guy shipped a m16 registered. Someone stole it. They gave him like $1000

 

[Holliday]

Really?

I heard a guy shipped a m16 registered. Someone stole it. They gave him like $1000

Nice anecdote ….. with no details.

I have a friend of a friend’s cousin’s sister who said that people that go by “Burt” often wet the bed….. I believe her.

 

[BurtG]

Nice anecdote ….. with no details.

I have a friend of a friend’s cousin’s sister who said that people that go by “Burt” often wet the bed….. I believe her.

Yeah search for “usps insurance forum “ They seem to
Be fubar

 

[jb0311]

Shipping companies are a racket

It’s their job to ship the item



Imagine any other industry pulling this crap.
I can build your deck for $5000. Oh you want to make sure it actually gets built or isn’t half way destroyed when I get done building it ? That will be a extra $2500 “insurance “



I buy $50,000-300,000+ machinery. If the shipper doesn’t get it to me or it gets stolen off the low boy or he hits something with it. He pays for it.

What a crock

right not to mention the "express" shipping options you pay for don't guarantee jack. Pay for overnight and it takes 2 weeks...tough shit, no refund for that.

 

[Holliday]

Yeah search for “usps insurance forum “ They seem to
Be fubar

Ok, running an e-commerce 21 years, shipping every day, vs your “fart in a wind storm”. Got it.

The plural of anecdote is not data. I can do a search on how many genders there are - but that doesn’t mean I am taking that info to the bank.

I have had good experiences with USPS insurance. Why? Because I use a myriad of “best practices” when shipping. I insure for the amount intend to claim. I pack well. Abide by usps rules and regs. And keep proper documentation, including photos.

I also have a “clue” when dealing with administrative bureaucracies. I cross my Ts and dot my i-s.

If I were a whiney leftist, I would chalk my experience up to simple luck. Rather than good old fashioned common sense, skill and hard work. But I’m not a whiney leftist, so I choose the latter……

 

[Holliday]

Shipping companies are a racket

It’s their job to ship the item



Imagine any other industry pulling this crap.
I can build your deck for $5000. Oh you want to make sure it actually gets built or isn’t half way destroyed when I get done building it ? That will be a extra $2500 “insurance “



I buy $50,000-300,000+ machinery. If the shipper doesn’t get it to me or it gets stolen off the low boy or he hits something with it. He pays for it.

What a crock

On this, I emphatically agree. In fact I have said the same thing many times. Shipping companies never should have been allow to pass the buck like that. This is why it is SO important not to let e-commerce and sellers set this precedent.

 

[Sblzrd65]

If I'm selling and shipping anything I always make sure there's enough insurance to cover the replacement value. As a buyer, same thing. There was one time I shipped a book and it got lost for about 6 months before showing up.... was glad to have insurance for it.

 

[Ankeny]

Wow, lots of confusion shown in this thread. I have sold several high end optics, rifles, hand guns, etc., on here and on GunBroker. Things like Accuracy International, Ed Brown, Wilson Combat, etc. I have a Wilson Combat EDC-9 in the classified section right now. As the seller, it is my responsibility to insure the item, and be able to prove value if I file a claim. I am the person with the shipping receipt that shows the insured value.

 

[Sgp12345]

Another vote for the seller should always insure. It is sellers job to make sure item arrives. Sellers who pull the insurance “optional” thing are foolish, and there are many sellers who do this. It’s roughly $10 per 1000, so a small price to pay.

I’ve noticed recently that many online retailers make you opt into their insurance and pay extra… usually it’s a fairly small amount, but some charge way more than it should be. If you don’t want it, you have to check the “I deny insurance box”. Does this get the retailer off the hook if item never arrived? Could you still file a CC chargeback?

 

[jb0311]

Could you still file a CC chargeback?

Yes. CC companies side with the buyer 99.9% of the time.