Why do my groups look like this?

[Racerngr1]

It seems like my groups always have the most variance side to side whereas my vertical is pretty close. I believe this is a shooter problem as it does pretty much the same thing with all my guns and various handloads and factory loads. I'm shooting either prone or off of a bench off of my Haris bipod that swivels but I tightened the swivel all the way down so it's pretty tight. What am I doing wrong?

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[...]

what range? 100yds?

i mean they dont look half bad, i think you might be trying to muscle the gun into position........be sure to check your "natural point of aim".....when you get into positon, close your eyes and mount the rifle, then open your eyes, if you arent dead center on target, change your position slightly and repeat those steps until you are dead center when you open your eyes.

 

[Racerngr1]

what range? 100yds?

i mean they dont look half bad, i think you might be trying to muscle the gun into position........be sure to check your "natural point of aim".....when you get into positon, close your eyes and mount the rifle, then open your eyes, if you arent dead center on target, change your position slightly and repeat those steps until you are dead center when you open your eyes.

These are at 100 yards. The groups at 200 are obviously worse


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[...]

yeah, like i said, just focus on that initial setup...building a good shooting foundation is essential, and if youre muscling the gun, you dont have a solid foundation.

also pay attention to your cheek weld, make sure you have a solid and consistent weld.......any variation in that could cause groups to open up as well.


do you remember what shot those fliers came from?.......if i can hazard a guess, were each of your major fliers your 3rd of 5th shot?

what can happen is when people see 2 good shots......or 4 good shots in a group, they get excited and stop paying attention to the fundamentals and pull a shot.....this happens to everyone, and is largely a confidence issue.......the only solution ive found is to just keep shooting, haha .....eventually youll get used to the excitement of shooting good groups

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Flinching?

Try getting a friend to hand you the gun loaded... or not loaded. You won't know. Do this a dozen times or so.

See what happens when you pull on an empty chamber. If you have a flinch, it will be obvious from the way the gun moves when you press the trigger.

Just a thought.

The horizontal stringing has all the hallmarks of a flinch or of strong-arming the trigger.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[Fursniper]

What does the rifle do when someone else (who knows what they're doing) shoots it? Have you tried that?

Edit; never mind, I just realized you said ALL your rifles do this......

 

[TheGerman]

Trigger Crush

Sounds like a soda.

 

[308pirate]

There's tension in your strong side shoulder. Guaranteed.

 

[Racerngr1]

There's tension in your strong side shoulder. Guaranteed.

So what does this mean and how do I fix it? I've also noticed other people saying "strong arming the trigger"? How do I correct the issue?


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[308pirate]

So what does this mean and how do I fix it? I've also noticed other people saying "strong arming the trigger"? How do I correct the issue?


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I'm basing my opinion on what I found I was doing wrong. It's a question of feel, something we feel internally in our muscles. I wish I knew how to convey that using the written word but I don't.

That's why it's so hard to teach oneself how to shoot and why pro coaching is so important. When I decided to up my shotgun game, I paid for coaching more than once. I'm going to do the same for my rifle game next year.

 

[MT Casual]

So what does this mean and how do I fix it? I've also noticed other people saying "strong arming the trigger"? How do I correct the issue?


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I would practice dry firing while noticing what the reticle does while pulling the trigger. I had a similar problem years ago and by dry firing while looking through the scope I could see that my pull was deflecting the reticule left as I pulled the trigger. After that just practice different methods of pulling the trigger until you find one that produces very little wiggle. It takes a little bit of work to break ones bad habit.

 

[Scrapperx]

what range? 100yds?

i mean they dont look half bad, i think you might be trying to muscle the gun into position........be sure to check your "natural point of aim".....when you get into positon, close your eyes and mount the rifle, then open your eyes, if you arent dead center on target, change your position slightly and repeat those steps until you are dead center when you open your eyes.

I totally agree. Natural point of aim. EXACTLY what mcameron said also try to keep the same position shot after shot. if you readjust your body position between shots because you weren't comfortable you will see horizontal stringing or "split grouping".

 

[longrange454]

This tread just answered my question. I have the same problem with my AR15. I'm the other way though. I'm to relaxed, and not shouldering the rifle properly.

Thanks.

 

[dsouza411]

Everyone provided excellent advice. Also double check your parallax is adjusted properly.

 

[Sleeper]

Online training “Trigger School”.

 

[DellaDog]

See this thread as well...
https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...ions/6630982-better-groups-when-shooting-fast

 

[...]

This tread just answered my question. I have the same problem with my AR15. I'm the other way though. I'm to relaxed, and not shouldering the rifle properly.

Thanks.

you may not have been shouldering the rifle properly.....but there is no such thing as "too relaxed"......

when i shoot matches, i am sleeping between relays......and when im shooting prone, im damn near about to fall asleep on the firing line.

when you shoot a precision rifle in a "conventional" position (sitting, standing, kneeling, prone).......you should be using almost 0 muscle to hold that rifle in place......

 

[Jedi]

As you did not state such, what rifles are we talking about
for a pencil barrel hunting rig thats acceptable to many, just wanna rule out equipment not being capable of better
if you own an AR then you have the solution on hand. Unless of course we are talking about one?
Do not fret no one picked up a rifle an shot bug holes from day one,
Handloads or factory fodder? No point beating your self up over so so handloads
AR,s make the perfect training tool, as they magnify every lil error in technique
many a gas gunner rock bolt guns, however many bolt guners are only so so running a gasser
If you own a gasser spend all your time behind it, master it n shooting a bolt gun is cake
Failing that use the lightest recoiling gun you have even if its a 22lr
Shooting from a bipod requires some understanding to do correctly, so shoot off a bag etc lose bipod, No point beating yourself up over bad technique from bipod.
The objective is to not have you chasing your tail over issue with eqipment vs you
Bipod shooting is the bane of many here, n some bipods are easier to shoot from than others.
So to sum up
Shoot the lightest recoling rig you have from bags, expect like many you will shoot better from bags vs bipod
Once you id the issue, n get to shooting n enjoying results. Build on that, confidence in the shot result before breaking the shot
The truely good shots know before the bullet strikes target result " calling your shot "
If you have someone who shoots good have them watch you, or have someone vid you from smart phone etc
Not much that can not be corrected via advice from vast knowledge pool available here

 

[longrange454]

Mccameron. Nailed it on my part.

 

[LSUbeatUby40]

So what does this mean and how do I fix it? I've also noticed other people saying "strong arming the trigger"? How do I correct the issue?


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Are you loading the bipod? This means that you are forcing the rifle forward causing resistance in the bi-pod for a more stable setup?

 

[Sig Marine]

Many times, horizontal movement is trigger press/control. Vertical is usually breathing, inconsistent loading of bipod or pulling rifle into the shoulder. Of course, muscling the rifle, inconsistent cheek weld, poor follow-through and flinching will cause the same problems. As mentioned, dry practice until you can hold the rifle steady through the trigger break will help.

 

[wvlapua]

Make sure to properly adjust parallax also. If the crosshairs move around the target, when moving your head, it needs adjusted.

I prefer to get behind the scope in a solid ready position. Then make small circles with my head, while focusing on the target. When you are parallax free, the crosshairs will remain still with these small movements.

 

[Steel head]

I get horizontal stringing if I’m muscling to target or inconsistent shoulder pocket.

varying cheek rest pressure also can be the culprit.

 

[chorizo]

Improperly set parallax and inconsistent head placement. Try to make sure you set your parallax, not by the dial, but by seeing if the reticle moves when your head moves.

The single most overlooked issue on stringing.

 

[Alabusa]

Flinching?

Try getting a friend to hand you the gun loaded... or not loaded. You won't know. Do this a dozen times or so.

See what happens when you pull on an empty chamber. If you have a flinch, it will be obvious from the way the gun moves when you press the trigger.

Just a thought.

The horizontal stringing has all the hallmarks of a flinch or of strong-arming the trigger.

Cheers,

Sirhr

It is amazing how many people flinch when this is done. My son and I always load the others gun just for protection from the flinch.

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[supercorndogs]

I get horizontal stringing if I’m muscling to target or inconsistent shoulder pocket.

varying cheek rest pressure also can be the culprit.

This usually, for me at least, also manifested as the gun recoiling off to one side or the other, rather than straight back then back on target.

 

[Gray Squirrel]

Dry fire. It can be boring, but its one of the best drills you can do to help build up muscle memory. Its also very cost effective. When you go to the range, dry fire 3-5 times then fire one round. Repeat that several times as a warm up. You can also get into a good firing position with an empty chamber and have someone balance a coin on the top of the barrel near the muzzle, then pull the trigger. You should be able to pull the trigger without any interruptions to the coin. You can use other objects as well (spent pistol shell casings balance vertically, washers, etc.). You can always throw a snap cap in the chamber if you don't like dropping the firing pin on an empty chamber.

Good trigger control combined with a good natural point of aim and good firing position will yield solid results every time, regardless of what you are shooting. The consistent horizontal shifting in your groups show that you are either pulling the trigger to side during the pull or you are trying to push/pull the rifle onto target and hold it there, thus making a consistent point of aim difficult to maintain. Someone already covered how too establish a natural point of aim, that is important when trying to maintain small groups.

Another thing to check is your eye relief and parallax. If your scope isn't mounted correctly, you can get scope shadow which will influence your grouping size and POA to POI. Also, if you are turkey necking every time you fire trying to get a good cheek weld, your scope may be mounted to far in either direction. Keep in mind that at increased magnification, the more sensitive your scope is to scope shadow. You can try backing off your magnification a few notches and see if your group improves. Poorly set parallax will also influence your group size slightly as well.

Once you start shaking things out, and build that muscle memory, you'll start to be able to feel when things are out of whack and thus able to "call your shot" and know what went wrong with wide groups or random fliers. It appears that your groupings aren't terrible, so it may be something small or a combination of small things that you are doing. I know it can be frustrating especially when you are firing rifles and ammo you know are capable of better performance. If multiple firearms are doing the same thing, then its probably something you are doing during the firing sequence.

 

[Cavitation]

Dry firing is the best way to practice trigger control. In the army we used the penny on the barrel unsupported trick. If the penny stays perched on the barrel after dry firing your doing pretty good. Another way is to put a bore sighting lazer in the muzzle and dry fire. Have someone watch the path the ;azer takes before and after the trigger breaks. In the Guard we used the Marine reserves FAT system to figure out what folks were doing during trigger trigger pull. It would record the bore tracking before one color during another and recoil after. That was a fantastic system. Those Marines made us much better shooters.

AL

 

[supercorndogs]

Dry fire can be great for trigger control. You need to be firing to check and practice your recoil control.

 

[Rogerthatout]

Natural point of aim is probably being overlooked.

I only hold tight enough to help the gun through recoil. So, hold as light as possible.
Some guns need more help through recoil than others. Same wirh calibers.
My .308 bullpup, for example, needs to be held tight and evenly or I get nasty muzzle rise. On the other hand, my buddys .223 surgeon is so forgiving it's practically boring to shoot.

I would try this.

Use your scope on less power, increase your field of view so you can see your target during and after recoil.
Shoot but pay close attention to follow through. Your sight needs to land back on target after firing.

Relax the gun as much as you can while still being able to help it through recoil, loosen up and find your gun's sweet spot. It will be obvious when you find it.
Oh yeah, I would focus on ONE gun. You'll never figure this out across multiple platforms.

I bet those groups come into 1moa once you learn the caliber and rifle

 

[L.R.Novice]

Everyone is giving good advice. Here is what I have found to be a 100% guaranteed diagnosis tool. Try it and you will see.

Buy some of the aluminum dummy rounds. Grab 2 of them and 5 live rounds and load them into a mag with your eyes closed. Load the mag into the rifle with the bolt closed (so you can’t cheat).

Get in a solid firing position. Dry fire until the reticle doesn’t move. I mean at 100 yards get the reticle dead center and the cross hair shouldn’t move off a 1/2” dot when you break the trigger on a 25 power scope. Continue to adjust your position, pressure and trigger manipulation until the reticle is rock steady for 3 cycles.

Now without moving anything, simply run the bolt the full stroke. And do everything exactly the same. After full follow through on that shot. Lift the bolt but don’t chamber a new round and dry fire again until the reticle is steady. Repeat till you have a 5 shot group. You’ll know if you’re doing anything wrong when you cycle through those dummy rounds.

 

[appalatchun]

@L.R.Novice That is some stellar advice. I had someone tell me something very similar about a year ago, and I have to say... it humbled me a little.

 

[CharlieNC]

In addition to dry firing to address trigger pull and NPA, you may have too much cheek pressure which pushes the rifle butt sideways UPON RECOIL. That is this may not show up by dry firing alone, and you may need to experiment with less cheek pressure when shooting.

 

[Alan101]

Make sure you always have the same trigger finger placement. When I dont I have horizontal stringing problems.

 

[silhouette]

In addition to dry firing to address trigger pull and NPA, you may have too much cheek pressure which pushes the rifle butt sideways UPON RECOIL. That is this may not show up by dry firing alone, and you may need to experiment with less cheek pressure when shooting.

That's something I have never considered and it makes sense.
I'm having trouble with horizontal stringing and can't seem to get rid of it but I don't think it's operator error.
This doesn't happen with my other rifles and didn't happen with the last barrel in this gun. Another competent shooter has put a group through with this and the result was the same.
Vertical is almost zero, my SD is always single digits and I tried a proven scope. I also think I've tweaked the seating depth to its best potential.
Any ideas?

 

[dinc3]

In what order are the shots going in? 1 left, 2 right, 3 left, ect.? It almost looks like it's double grouping, shifting in the bedding between shots. Is this in a stock or chassis? Is it bedded?

Keep shooting!

 

[SubOptimal]

I'm going to add some little tricks that have helped me with the mental game of shooting as well as the physical.
#1. Forget groups shoot individual dots. This should remove some of the stress encountered when building a group.
#2. Pick an edge or a corner for your point of aim. Those diamonds on your target make great aiming points. If you are holding the center of the target you have two axis to worry about. Hold the left or right corner and you can eliminate one. Same holds true for a 6 O'clock hold.
#3. Trigger. Here is where the biggest issues come up. Dry fire until you are sick of it and then do it some more. If you can't produce a smooth trigger pull, you will never improve. The most important thing here and the most difficult to break yourself of is pausing in your trigger pull on the way to the release of the sear. Yeah, your sight picture is gonna move around a bit but if you let it just happen and continue with your trigger pull without introducing extra tension in your firing hand, you'll find that your accuracy will improve. Yeah, if you sneeze in the middle of the shot, you will miss but stay concentrating on that target and forget your firing hand. With enough dry fire, a smooth, straight back trigger pull should be a matter of muscle memory by this time. You shouldn't be thinking about it at all.
#4. Control of heart rate and breathing. You have to relax and know when and how to do it. Initiate your trigger pull at the start of the natural pause in breathing. Do not suck in a whole bunch of air and try to hold your breath, just inhale and exhale normally, if you feel you are running out of air, stop, take a couple of breaths and try again. You will introduce all sorts of tensions in your body trying to control breathing, it is pointless, your body is going to try to suck in air as your automatic systems detect the buildup of CO2, eventually your body will win, even if you are 30 feet under water. Don't fight it, all it will do is increase your heart rate and ruin your muscle control.

There is a whole lot more to this but keep these fundamentals in mind when you are shooting and dry firing.. It takes perfect practice to achieve perfection. Try not to groove bad habits. That is where a good coach comes in handy. A good one will spot your bad habits and teach you how to eliminate them.

 

[AMGtuned]

Great thread here. Lots of good info.

 

[pineoak]

make sure your trigger finger is consistently in the same spot every time and you're pulling it straight back every time

if your trigger is too far or near for your finger, you will get horizontal stringing

 

[cattleman99]

My tip - just relax. Looks like a very tense group. Let everything fall into place and do it the same every time.