Rifle Scopes Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

[lawofsavage]

This is just a general question and not specific to a certain model but it seems like that not only on the hide but on many other forums the Mark 4's are really looked down upon. My question is why is this so? Is it because they are perceived to be a bad value because of a comparably priced NXS? Dislike for Leupold? Poor tracking of the turrets? etc......? I'd love some feedback it doesn't seem like they could be as bad as they are made out to be on the forums since the military uses them???

 

[GhostFace]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

They Cost too much for what you get and plus they didnt offer matching restocked with adjustment knobs. I'm a MOA shooter so they don't have anything that I want. I just ordered a new scope and I went with a PST because it offer way more for a lot less money. I will be keeping my loopy m3 but I just don't see myself buying anymore of their scopes for a long long time...

ETA when tactical shooters were askIng for new and matching reticles it fell on def eras from Leupold but yet they kept increasing the prices, resting on their reputation. Now that NF, SS and Vortex is offered what we have been asking it's hard to regain those lost customers...

 

[remau308]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

They are great for a military application because they are built very tough, and are a fine optic for that world. However, I have owned two (4-14 and 8-25 ER/T) and neither of them tracked very well for precision work. After tracking to 1000 yards, and going back down to 100 yards, my zero was always off at least a minute at 100 yards in a random direction. This was tested many times, and it was always hit or miss where my zero would be. This also made hits at different yards a little off, and my scores in competitions showed the impact this made. They are not bad scopes, in fact, I love the TMR reticle, but if it costs me points then it's not worth my time. Your mileage may vary though.

 

[lawofsavage]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GhostFace</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They Costco much for what you get and plus they didnt offer matching restocked with adjustment knobs. I'm a MOA shooter so they don't have anything that I want. I just ordered a new scope and I went with a PST because it offer way more for a lot less money. I will be keeping my loopy m3 but I just don't see myself buying anymore of their scopes for a long long time... </div></div>

So for you, it's more of a value issue than a quality issue. You feel like you can get a comparable scope for less money?

 

[GhostFace]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

I feel I can get at least if not a better scope for less
money. The 6-24x50 PST I ordered was $750 the closest offering from Leupold in the MK IV line would cost about $1400, give or take and the glass on the PST is better an the reticle matches the turrets. Why would I buy the Leupold?

 

[tman300wm]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

My first high end optic was a Mark IV 3-10 40mm. It did't track all that well, and considering how much it cost me, I thought the glass was real average. About the same time I bought a Nikon Tactical 2.5-10 44mm. The Nikon was at least as well made, tracked perfectly, had much better glass (in my opinion), and cost less.

A more appropriate name for this thread might have been: Why the fuck would you even bother with a Leupold? They make some nice hunting scopes, and 15 years ago I'm sure they were one of the better military scopes. However, these days Leupold seems to be out classed in pretty much every respect, and especially in terms of value.

 

[lawofsavage]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: remau308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They are great for a military application because they are built very tough, and are a fine optic for that world. However, I have owned two (4-14 and 8-25 ER/T) and neither of them tracked very well for precision work. After tracking to 1000 yards, and going back down to 100 yards, my zero was always off at least a minute at 100 yards in a random direction. This was tested many times, and it was always hit or miss where my zero would be. This also made hits at different yards a little off, and my scores in competitions showed the impact this made. They are not bad scopes, in fact, I love the TMR reticle, but if it costs me points then it's not worth my time. Your mileage may vary though. </div></div>

Thanks Troy, that is the kind of information I was looking for. The main purpose is going to be putting it on a competition rifle so that is very relevant information.

 

[Mike]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

I completely disagree with Remau's assertions.

It is not a great military scope. The old ones worked well when there weren't any other real competition to speak of. They are relying solely on their "military" use and ignore the civilian users with more shots down range than 99% of "military" shooters.

Recently their quality still seems to be bad, or at best suspect. So it is neither a value OR a quality issue it's both.

If you purchase a Leupold today you have one of the following reasons in no particular order:

You WANT a Leupold for the name.
You work for Leupold and don't want to hear your baby is ugly.
You're stupid.
You like to waste money.
You follow the idiocy of "if the military uses it it must be the best".
You want to be confused by the reticle and adjustments being different (although this has recently changed).

And finally, you can't wrap your head around the fact that there ARE much better choices out there.

 

[lawofsavage]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

This is the kind of thing I read on all the forums and I don't disagree with it. What I don't understand is if it's true why the Mark 4's are so popular. I guess people buy before doing research?

 

[Graham]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

With Leupold, YOU are the quality control. That's their benefit of their lifetime warranty: If you know enough to figure out that it doesn't work or that it's broken, then it's up to you to send it back.

Compared to the 'old days' the specs are loose and the quality is down.

That's why military guys who use them, and who can get two of them, carry two of them.

 

[raptor99]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

Like was said by one of the guys, they were the best thing around at the time. Now they are not so hot and for the price there is a lot better stuff out there.

I have a couple of the MK4s with the M3 dials and you can not focus on the target without inducing a paralex. If you adjust the focus to take out the paralex the target is out of foucus.

I also think the quality of glass varries from scope to scope. Tracking is so so on them also. I paid in the neghborhood of $550 when I bought mine now the same scope is $1100+.

I need a new scope and was saving for a NF but now they are in the $1700 range. I have read good things about the Vortexs and the Weavers and may try one of them. I am sure they will be every bit as good as my MK4s.

 

[GhostFace]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

We bought 4 of the 4-14x50 MK IV TMRS about 6 yrs ago and they all tracked well. My buddy who is on the city department bought one exactly like from SWFA, we got our fro Scott @ LO. All five started having tracking problems within a few weeks of each other about two years after we had them. Loopy made it right but I read the newer MK IVs are made with Chinese internals and Loopy knows they will fail and when they do they are reassembled with USA made internals. I don know if that is true or not but none of the scopes have had a problem since being returned. With that my M3 started shifting groups for no reason a couple of weeks ago and it now has to go back but I have not got around to sending it in. This scope is about 10 years old.

 

[lawofsavage]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

What I'm taking from this is that Leupold cares more about profit maximization than customer satisfaction. Why spend more money improving your product if consumers will still buy it in large quantities? I do not know this to be the case it just appears this way from the direction of the conversation so far.

 

[remau308]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I completely disagree with Remau's assertions.

It is not a great military scope. The old ones worked well when there weren't any other real competition to speak of. They are relying solely on their "military" use and ignore the civilian users with more shots down range than 99% of "military" shooters.

Recently their quality still seems to be bad, or at best suspect. So it is neither a value OR a quality issue it's both.

If you purchase a Leupold today you have one of the following reasons in no particular order:

You WANT a Leupold for the name.
You work for Leupold and don't want to hear your baby is ugly.
You're stupid.
You like to waste money.
You follow the idiocy of "if the military uses it it must be the best".
You want to be confused by the reticle and adjustments being different (although this has recently changed).

And finally, you can't wrap your head around the fact that there ARE much better choices out there. </div></div>

I didn't really mean for the military comment to be the main part of my comment. Most people see them on Barrett's and assume they are great scopes. They are built to be quite rugged, but I wanted the main point to be that they do not track up to the $1300-$1800 price tag.

 

[Jackalope33B]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

Mine went back to the factory 2 times within a 1 month period. They obviously didnt fix their shitty scope. Ended up buying a NF and have not looked back!!

 

[Graham]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jackalope33B</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mine went back to the factory 2 times within a 1 month period. They obviously didnt fix their shitty scope. Ended up buying a NF and have not looked back!! </div></div>That's the other problem: When you send the scope back they tell you it's 'within spec' and won't fix it because the specs are so loose. What is the latest on acceptable reticle cant - is it still three degress?

 

[Jackalope33B]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

Actually, it had nothing to do with spec. When I first got my scope all mounted up after firing about 15 rounds, there were black specs that was adhering to the inside of the glass. very annoying! it appeared that the specs were small pieces of "paint" from inside of the tube. sent it in, got it back, Leupold never told me what it was though. re mounted it shot it and same shit happened!!! sent it back again, 3 weeks later got the scope. back looked through the scope before i mounted it and low and behold there was shit once again adhered to the inside of the glass. I was like F*#* this!!! I sold it on Ebay with a disclaimer. Spent a few extra bucks and got me my NF!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jackalope33B</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mine went back to the factory 2 times within a 1 month period. They obviously didnt fix their shitty scope. Ended up buying a NF and have not looked back!! </div></div>That's the other problem: When you send the scope back they tell you it's 'within spec' and won't fix it because the specs are so loose. What is the latest on acceptable reticle cant - is it still three degress? </div></div>

 

[i_rep]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

Here is the LOW DOWN.....When they first came out, hell even when it was still called an L&S Ultra FIXED 10x...they were so overbuilt the only other thing that would probably even come close would be a Unertl MST100, then Unertl became a thing of the past.

It was well overbuilt....One if not the only first 30mm tube and had thicker tube walls. It was offered in a Mil-Dot or Duplex reticle and the exposed M1 1/4moa turrets which were very easy to work even with winter gloves or the Hidden M3 turrets that were 1moa elevation 1/2 windage.

What leupold came to realize is that with the Army contract, other govt agencies, and every other LEO used this optic in the fixed 10x or 16x.

Then came along the competiton....and probably surpassed them so the people using the optics wanted the variables .... they realized they were not having luck selling the Vari X III or any other even when they would mark it TACTICAL.....So they rebranded all of them Mark 4's to get more sales. Its the same optics rebranded....not improved...not overbuilt...does not have the same build quality, components or thicker tubes like the fixed 10 x and 16x had.

So things that get beat up and are not up to any more standard than a glorified hunting optic are going to fail...I am sure their problems are still proly only less than 3-5% overall which isn't bad (numbers were just a guess).

But the bottom line until recently with the new M5, M8, M6 optios they did not step up and offer what was needed....better durability, build quality....thicker tubes....matching knobs/reticles...so many other companies had an opening and took advantage.

Now it seems Leupold wants the market share back. Will they get it? Rise to the new standard that we have seen? Maybe they will, looks good so far...matching knobs/reticles....bigger tubes (i.e 34mm) is it too late to recover? Only time will tell...

IMHO

 

[lawofsavage]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

So the M5 knobs don't have tracking problems?

 

[remau308]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

My M5 knobs 4-14 did have tracking problems. They aren't upgraded, they only match the reticle with mil adjustments.

 

[red6actual]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

Leupold customer service is unacceptable as has already been said, I sent an Ultra M3a back to them 4 times before they had it right, seems the individual that checks for a clear sight picture can not see very well as mine too had black spots on the glass, 3 out of 4 times, never should have sent it in for service in the first place!
The scope is fine now and seems to track just fine but WTF are they doing up there, I finally had to talk to the department head to get satisfaction and I am still not happy about it.

My advice, never send anything to Leupold for service!

If you do be advised that it may or may not get fixed the first time and will test you patience at the very least.

I too am looking at other options for the future......

 

[red6actual]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

I got so worked up I forgot about the original topic, I do not hate Leupold scopes, the 2 I own are older vintage and are great for what I do with them.

I love the old Ultra line, they should have built upon that and they would have had something....

 

[42769vette]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

like most here the leupold cs sucks, but the mk4 is not a bad scope. if the 1300 dollar mk4 was in the 600 dollar price range id consider it. my 700 dollar sfp vortex pst beats it to peices

 

[jdr724]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

Buy em right and the VALUE argument is taken care of.

I got 3 new for FAR less than average price and no they are not fakes.

I'm also not trying be MOA or frustrated.

The new models look interesting but the prices don't. Can't believe you have to spend double to get these issues fixed for those who are into competition.

 

[Jig Stick]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

My Leupold mark 4 has been a great scope. Tracks perfectly, and the glass is as good, if not better, than my buddies Nightforce scopes. I've taken it out to 1300yds and back to 100, and it's been spot on. It will live on my 300 winmag for a long time.

 

[Powder_Burns]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

The last Mk4 I bought was defective out the box. Leupold did make good, sent me a call tag, but it left a bad taste in my mouth. I shop their competitors for glass now.

 

[ms6852]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

It offers only 70 moa of adjustment.

 

[shoots100]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

I test my rifle scopes on fifty caliber rifles.If they can survive on a fifty,they can survive on any other caliber weapon for life.Some manufacturers won't warranty a scope if you say it was mounted on a fifty.I found that out the hard way.I've had and observed almost every type of scope fail on a fifty.S&B to Super Snipers,includeing a Leupold.I'll be putting a March scope to the test soon.The only scope that I've had that hasn't failed is my Leupold MK4 LRT.It's been on seven fifty cals to date.It has thousands of rounds under it's belt.Just over 4,500 rounds fired on the AR50 it's mounted on now and it's still shooting small groups at the 1K matches I compete in.
While I get the idea of testing tracking and glass quality,my first and main concern is it's durability.An expensive scope that lasts 100 rounds is worth nothing to me.I can dial turrets till the cows come home and if its a 1/4 inch out from the last 100yd zero I had,I really don't lose any sleep over it.I might not hit whatever I'm shooting at in the same hair folicle I was aiming for,but I know it's going to be close enough to put it out of comission forever.I'm happy with my Leupolds.

 

[jorefice]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jig Stick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My Leupold mark 4 has been a great scope. Tracks perfectly, and the glass is as good, if not better, than my buddies Nightforce scopes. I've taken it out to 1300yds and back to 100, and it's been spot on. It will live on my 300 winmag for a long time. </div></div>

I've got 2 Mark 4s and both mimic what was said here, with the exception of taking them out to 1300 yds. However, I have gone from 100 to 550 yds and everywhere in between. Both have tracked perfectly.

A little off topic, but I got my Vortex HS 5x15 from Midway yesterday. There has been much talk about comparing their glass to Nightforce. Soon as I looked through mine (Vortex) my first thought was, good, but not even as good as my Mark 4s. Guess I'm happy with mine.

 

[Ed-G]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

I have been happy with Leupold hunting scopes, have 7 or 8. Have one Mark 4 4.5-14x50 that works good. A 6-24 bushnell, a 6-20? Simmons, a Vortex PST 1 to 4, and a GRSC 1-4. Had to send one Leupold 2.5-8x36 in for a very stiff power selector ring that they fixed. So needless to say I have been a very good Leupold customer.

A while back found out they give a very nice discount to Hunter Safety Instructors, so I signed up. I purchased my one Mark 4 under the Hunter Safety program and one or two of the hunting scopes. Two years ago I get the annual catalog with the Hunter Safety info and the Tactical Scopes are not included. I call and they said they pulled them from the program. This last year the info comes and no Tactical program for Hunter Safety. I call and ask again if they might allow it....answer is no. I explain to the Lady that I really only use Leupold scopes but I have all the Hunting models I need but not so on the Tactical side. Answer was still no. I explain that by doing this policy I have an incentive to look elsewhere. Answer was still no. So I needed a scope in the 6 to 20/24 range and ordered a Vortex FFP 6-24x50 with mil turrets. I did just get a VX-6 1-6x Multigunner Edition, I am embarrassed for Leupold that they would sell a scope with so much pincusioning from 1 to about 1.75x. If anyone is interested in this scope send me a PM and I will give you a very good deal. Last I sent a message to them asking if they can convert my M1 dials to M5, I got no reply.

So overall I am happy (except for the VX-6) with their quality but there are ALOT of other options out there and Leupold gave me the incentive to look.

 

[recce556]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

Once I got into good optics (NF/USO/S&B/etc.), I realized how crappy Leupolds were (at least the ones I owned including "up labeled" VXIII -> Mark4). I look at the new ones they had at SHOT and honestly, for the kind of money their asking, I would pass. That said, their Mark6 3-18x44 looking interesting but again, I think it's overpriced. Should be a $1699 optic..

 

[Alpine 338]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

I have a new 3-10x40 and a 6.5-20x50, both with 30-mm tubes and M5 turrets. The glass is better then the three NF scopes I had previously owned. Lack of zero-stop is the only thing I don't like with them, also the backwards parallax adjustment direction, but for what I paid for them they are good scopes. One is on my 22 trainer, and the other on a a Rem 5R in 223Rem.

 

[BIPMaster]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

How much does Leupold charge to convert M1 knobs to M5?

 

[BCP]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

120 to convert but it depends on who you get on the phone. One told me 90, another told me 150, and finally that it couldn't be done.

Also lots of people mistake 'hating on Leupold' for pointing out that there are other good scopes out there too..

 

[Chris@InterstateGuns]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also lots of people mistake 'hating on Leupold' for pointing out that there are other good scopes out there too.. </div></div>

Totally agree with BCP. I don't hate on Leupold, but I make sure that people know their options when/if they ask.

 

[Eric B.]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

Now Bushnell has, in the past, not been noted for building great rifle scopes. BUT... they have stepped up their game as the Bausch & Lomb brand disappeared, to be replaced by the Elite series.

And with the introduction of the 34 mm tubed Bushnell HDMR line we now have a truly excellent scope for the money - including my money. And then there are the excellent 1600 LRFs they make...

Leupold had BETTER pay attention or it will become a "K-Mart Special" brand.

 

[MAT4-82]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

I thought Frank did a pretty positive writeup on the 6.5-20x50 ERT a while back. You disagree?

 

[BCP]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

^^^^^^^
yeah he did. I'd still wait awhile to see how well they do once there are more of them out and about though esp/at the prices I've seen quoted for them.

 

[Jeremybj]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

Basically when you are number one ( at least at their respective price points) everyone is after you.

I am shopping for a nice spotting scope and am comparing the gold ring hd to everything at that $1000-1500 price point, I just keep coming back to the leupy....


There are a lot of nice optics out there, but my guess is most people who trash talk leupold have probably never looked through one....

 

[42769vette]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeremybj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Basically when you are number one ( at least at their respective price points) everyone is after you.

I am shopping for a nice spotting scope and am comparing the gold ring hd to everything at that $1000-1500 price point, I just keep coming back to the leupy....


There are a lot of nice optics out there, but my guess is most people who trash talk leupold have probably never looked through one.... </div></div>

i have owned 5 and i trash talk leupold. my guess is everyone who loves leupold remembers the 80s when they were the best out there and have never tried somthing new

 

[sosicmcise]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

I have an older Leupold 3.5-10x40 with a Premier Gen II reticle in it. It's still one of my favorite scopes because its relatively small and it adjusts accurately (though it does adjust in "shooters minutes" or IPHY) which is kind of annoying.

The ability of an optic to make accurate and repeatable adjustments is all i'm really concerned with now that i'm a nasty civilian.

I have S&B's and a Premier, and this still gets used regularly.

 

[gits]

Re: Why Does Everyone hate Leupy Mark 4's So Much

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: red6actual</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Leupold customer service is unacceptable as has already been said, I sent an Ultra M3a back to them 4 times before they had it right, seems the individual that checks for a clear sight picture can not see very well as mine too had black spots on the glass, 3 out of 4 times, never should have sent it in for service in the first place!
The scope is fine now and seems to track just fine but WTF are they doing up there, I finally had to talk to the department head to get satisfaction and I am still not happy about it.

My advice, never send anything to Leupold for service!

If you do be advised that it may or may not get fixed the first time and will test you patience at the very least.

I too am looking at other options for the future......



</div></div>

I've had nothing but great CS from Leupold, I had an issue with an one of the first Horus scopes off the line from Leupold, The reticle was actually under milled and was not to spec. I immediately called Leupold and they overnighted me a brand new scope. I later sent in that scope a few weeks later. The older models of scopes may be known to have some issues but I can say for a fact that my MK4 6.5-20x M5 can a little bit of abuse. Had my scope bash against a concrete wall during a fast rope off a tower during the night time, a few dings here and there with use. scope tracks perfectly fine. If theres a problem they will definitely take care of you.