Night Vision Why dual helmet-mounted Skeets/ChinaSkeets crushes NV...

[TheHorta]

My name is TheHorta, and I'm a Thermaholic.

I don't use NV anymore, unless it's in a fusion system or I'm driving something with a full windshield. I know to some of you that's blasphemy, but once you go dual helmet-mounted thermals -- and I'm talking SkeetIR-x's or CoronaSkeets here, not pathetic Breaches or some other lame-ass monoculars -- to put it simply, you ain't NEVER goin' back!

Sure, if I wanna stargaze or drive a blacked-out car, or play Tier-1 CQB with some LEO pals, I'll run fusion or i2 binos, but that's extremely rare. When I walk-and-stalk, I feel Buck Nekkid with a lame set of dual 2500 FOM L3 WP DTNVGs.

I CAN'T SEE SQUAT with the absolute-best NV money can buy!!! The things I know I'm missing make me feel like I might as well be walking around with a blindfold.

Swap them out for a set of dual Skeets, and the world comes to life. Suddenly, I'm like Heimdall in the Thor movies -- nothing escapes my gaze! I'm seeing field mice playing 100 yards away. Rabbits that were 20 feet away and utterly invisible to world-class NV now POP! Coyotes that blend in with their environment don't stand a chance. Many claim you can't walk or drive Rangers or Quads under thermal, to which I say -- HOGWASH! I do it every night with zero issues! Some will say "yeabbutt... my environment doesn't work with thermal.." I call BS! You think hot/humid 'Bama is any better? The only conditions where high-end thermal would become unusable would be conditions in which I ain't goin' out.

No sir. You can keep your NV and make up all the reasons in the world that will let you ignore the plain truth -- PID, things that go bump in the night, PID, "navigation", PID, "can't see through glass", PID, blah blah blah.

As Patrick Henry bravely stated when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor -- "Give me thermal, or give me death!"

 

[WhereNow&How]

As Patrick Henry bravely stated when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor -- "Give me thermal, or give me death!"

Im all up for history lessons, but that was Abe Lincoln that said that.

Least that's what they teach in skool tuday.

 

[CoryT]

Well, the 31k price might be a bit of an issue.

 

[RTH1800]

I like your style.
Not sure about your conclusions.

 

[GBMaryland]

Well you see there’s your problem right there.....

You’re still sticking to those man portable thermal weapon sights! I’m thinking a nice surplus M60A3 with an AN/VSG-2 TTS... should be able to see through houses, and women’s locker rooms.... Geeesh. Lightweight.

 

[TheHorta]

Well, the 31k price might be a bit of an issue.

CoronaSkeets solve that problem. Dual MH25's on a KAC bridge are basically the same price as a good set of NV binos -- $10K and you're in Thermal Nirvana.

 

[TheHorta]

Will you see there’s your problem right there.....

You’re still sticking to those man portable thermal weapon sights! I’m thinking a nice surplus M60A3 with an AN/VSG-2 TTS... should be able to see through houses, and women’s locker rooms.... Geeesh. Lightweight.

Will KAC build me a bridge to mount two on a helmet?

 

[GBMaryland]

As long as you get the 120 mm gun who cares? Bahahaha

 

[NFAJohn]

a lame set of dual 2500 FOM

 

[Surgeon_Shooter]

Hey I get where your coming from! But uhhh.... I still like night vision too

 

[GTOJOSH]

Horta,
I know its not page 2 yet, but...
These lame night vision items you loathe,
Are these still available?

The mh25's have settled in, and treating you right then? Or are you saying the actual skeet, etc is whats making all others safe queens?

 

[wigwamitus]

Back in Apr 2014 when I got my first thermal (Apollo 384 1x 60hz) and first PVS-14 ... I would walk around with the 14 on one eye and the Apollo on a lanyard. I would stop and hold up the apollo and scan. I had super poor man's dual band. I had a DREAM ... that I could mount the thermal side by side with the 14 and go hands free spotting while moving !!! Most people told me I was crazy and I would kill myself. But eventually, around Sept 2015, the market delivered the Q-14 and the IR-Patrol ... I got one of each and also got an ODIN. The ODIN worked best, since it had a PVS-14 form factor. I never could get the Q-14 mounted side by side with a PVS-14 with the mount I could find at the time. Eventually I got the patrol to work. But the form factor of the ODIN was superior, just not the olde FLIR core that was in it.

So dual band first and foremost gives me thermal spotting, hands free while moving. But also enables me to be able to shot with the laser.

Skeet and 14 with 5.56(10.3) carbine, Steiner OTAL, Luna ELIR-3 ^^ my standard "go to" night setup for walkin and stalkin ...

==
An even better setup is to add a COTI onto the 14 ...

Though currently I am COTI-less ... so run with Skeet on left eye and 14 on right eye ... still an excellent combo.

==

So perhaps in some overall average ... thermal can see 90% of what 14 can see ... and 14 can see 50% of what thermal can see ... but the parts the 14 can see I still find critical.

01 - 14 can see the laser
02 - 14 can see thru normal glass, not just germanium glass
03 -There's a pipe bridge on my land with a 15 foot drop off on one side .. and its a narrow pipe bridge ... if I roll the 4-wheeler off that pipe bridge I would be very unhappy ! Some nights the 14 can't see sh^t down there and other nights the thermal can't see sh^t down there ... I need both to be safe. This is one example, where in different conditions, one device can see terrain the other cannot.
04 - On snowy nights, the 14 see like virtual day light even with no moon, the luminosity of the snow is amazing. But with snow covering all the terrain, the thermal sees "sea of grey" ... NV really "shines" in the snow (and after an ice storm)
05 - 14 can see vis light of vehicles from 1+ miles away ... to make me aware of approaching vehicles even on the other side of a hill.

Let's say I feel 90% blind without thermal but I feel 50% blind without PVS-14 ... and so I want both !!!

 

[Killswitch Engage]

Back in Apr 2014 when I got my first thermal (Apollo 384 1x 60hz) and first PVS-14 ... I would walk around with the 14 on one eye and the Apollo on a lanyard. I would stop and hold up the apollo and scan. I had super poor man's dual band. I had a DREAM ... that I could mount the thermal side by side with the 14 and go hands free spotting while moving !!! Most people told me I was crazy and I would kill myself. But eventually, around Sept 2015, the market delivered the Q-14 and the IR-Patrol ... I got one of each and also got an ODIN. The ODIN worked best, since it had a PVS-14 form factor. I never could get the Q-14 mounted side by side with a PVS-14 with the mount I could find at the time. Eventually I got the patrol to work. But the form factor of the ODIN was superior, just not the olde FLIR core that was in it.

So dual band first and foremost gives me thermal spotting, hands free while moving. But also enables me to be able to shot with the laser.

Skeet and 14 with 5.56(10.3) carbine, Steiner OTAL, Luna ELIR-3 ^^ my standard "go to" night setup for walkin and stalkin ...

==
An even better setup is to add a COTI onto the 14 ...

Though currently I am COTI-less ... so run with Skeet on left eye and 14 on right eye ... still an excellent combo.

==

So perhaps in some overall average ... thermal can see 90% of what 14 can see ... and 14 can see 50% of what thermal can see ... but the parts the 14 can see I still find critical.

01 - 14 can see the laser
02 - 14 can see thru normal glass, not just germanium glass
03 -There's a pipe bridge on my land with a 15 foot drop off on one side .. and its a narrow pipe bridge ... if I roll the 4-wheeler off that pipe bridge I would be very unhappy ! Some nights the 14 can't see sh^t down there and other nights the thermal can't see sh^t down there ... I need both to be safe. This is one example, where in different conditions, one device can see terrain the other cannot.
04 - On snowy nights, the 14 see like virtual day light even with no moon, the luminosity of the snow is amazing. But with snow covering all the terrain, the thermal sees "sea of grey" ... NV really "shines" in the snow (and after an ice storm)
05 - 14 can see vis light of vehicles from 1+ miles away ... to make me aware of approaching vehicles even on the other side of a hill.

Let's say I feel 90% blind without thermal but I feel 50% blind without PVS-14 ... and so I want both !!!

this ^^^^^

ill keep running dual band simply because theres no holes left in your system and i like to drive with a windshield down on my side by side or obviously my truck. i also like to be able to see if a vehicle or sometimes a structure is occupied. thermal is without a doubt necessary gear but it just doesnt do er' all.

 

[diggler1833]

And here I am, still walking into shit in the dark...

 

[wigwamitus]

The COTI covers one (maybe two) further (tiny little) holes ... which really probably doesn't exist when hunting critters that don't shoot back ...

01 - Thermal can see target, 14 cannot.
In this case, with the COTI up there, you can still attempt engagement because the thermal (skeet, patrol, etc.) can see the target and because the 14 and COTI are co-aligned. So you can aim with the laser (which the 14 can see) at the target seen by the thermal ... even though the 14 cannot see the target. This probably happens to me about 2 times per year ... usually when the critter is behind a bush or other thick vegetation.
02 - The coti enables faster (maybe 1s faster on average?) engagement as no need to think about shifting between thermal view and NV view ... they are the same view. Point carbine at target while on-ing the laser, aim and fire. WIth practice (which I have done lots of) this can be virtually instantaneous otherwise known as sub-second, inside 50yds on coon+ sized critters.

I do not think this speed advantage (02) has resulted in a kill I could not have gotten without the COTI so far. However, the 01 advantage has gotten about 1-2 more kills per year that at least would've been more difficult (required to move to a different location to see around the LOS obstacle ... risking critter moving away or hearing me and reacting). So, the COTI has a tiny advantage against critters, that don't shoot back, but I do not find it to be in anyway a crucial advantage. Any critter moving in on the critters I am defending (chickens, guineas, calves) will 99.999% of the time make itself more visible along the way.

 

[GBMaryland]

The only problem with the current PAS29 is that you can’t get the E-COTI...

while the COTIs nice I would not buy a PAS 29A... there are several other versions passed that one with better software and general features and functionality.

even if your own one that you bought legally they’re a pain in the ass to get fixed… I had a problem with my PAS29A and it had to go back… And they were all sorts of pain in the butt about it because I was civilian.

let alone the last factor is that they charge a premium for 12 year old technology as opposed to allowing you to buy the current one.

I guess I’ll get off my soapbox now...

I would recommend sticking around with the Tricon (IRD) products because they have current support.

I do love my SkeetIR-X... And for everything except for astronomy it’s replaced my night vision equipment.

i’m drinking milk and someday I’ll be big and strong enough to have a cool astronomy rig like Vic or some of the other folks have...

 

[NateSavannah]

The COTI covers one (maybe two) further (tiny little) holes ... which really probably doesn't exist when hunting critters that don't shoot back ...

01 - Thermal can see target, 14 cannot.
In this case, with the COTI up there, you can still attempt engagement because the thermal (skeet, patrol, etc.) can see the target and because the 14 and COTI are co-aligned. So you can aim with the laser (which the 14 can see) at the target seen by the thermal ... even though the 14 cannot see the target. This probably happens to me about 2 times per year ... usually when the critter is behind a bush or other thick vegetation.
02 - The coti enables faster (maybe 1s faster on average?) engagement as no need to think about shifting between thermal view and NV view ... they are the same view. Point carbine at target while on-ing the laser, aim and fire. WIth practice (which I have done lots of) this can be virtually instantaneous otherwise known as sub-second, inside 50yds on coon+ sized critters.

I do not think this speed advantage (02) has resulted in a kill I could not have gotten without the COTI so far. However, the 01 advantage has gotten about 1-2 more kills per year that at least would've been more difficult (required to move to a different location to see around the LOS obstacle ... risking critter moving away or hearing me and reacting). So, the COTI has a tiny advantage against critters, that don't shoot back, but I do not find it to be in anyway a crucial advantage. Any critter moving in on the critters I am defending (chickens, guineas, calves) will 99.999% of the time make itself more visible along the way.

in your opinion, ive got 2 14s. if I were to buy one thermal and I do appreciate the dual band aspect. would I be better off with a weapon mount like the halo lr or something helmet mountable. once again if I was to buy one. wondering what your opinion is.

 

[GBMaryland]

If you get a SkeetIRX or a ReapIR, you can helmet mount or weapon mount very easily.

I’ve even gone so far as to put a skeet on one eye, and a PVS 14 on the other eye.

But those two thermals for multipurpose you can put them on a gun or you can put them on your helmet.

I’m not the person you asked so I’ll only interject one more thing: I did get a chance to see video that a buddy showed me out of his China skeet and it was damn good.

I’ve wasted a lot of money over the years screwing around with different thermal devices and the skeetIRX is the first one that exceeded all my expectations.

But those China Skeets actually aren’t bad.. I just don’t know if you can put them on a weapon or what happens if they break

 

[wigwamitus]

... in your opinion, ive got 2 14s. if I were to buy one thermal and I do appreciate the dual band aspect. would I be better off with a weapon mount like the halo lr or something helmet mountable. once again if I was to buy one. wondering what your opinion is ...

For me, there are two modes of critter control ...

01 - Walking and Stalking

02 - Overwatch

I mostly use W&S in the warmer half of the year. I live along a creek system with tree lines and other thick vegetation on both sides of the creeks and feeder streams. In the winter, I can see though some of these, in the summer I can see thru none of them and must get out and move on foot in the woods to intercept the critters coming in, mostly on my chickens, but during calving also coming in on the new born calves. I use dual band on helmet and laser on carbine for W&S.

In the cooler half of the year, I mostly use overwatch. That is setting up in a good spot with lots of LOS in multiple directions ... on an RRS tripod with a rifle and day scope and a thermal clipon. Or rarely (usually in snow) an NV clipon. When on overwatch, I am continuously doing 360s and indexing the critter groups I see out there ... keeping track of what is going on. Until I see a predator group rolling in ... then I determine initial ideal engagement location and use a trap lead based on that location. Relevant critter groups are usually moving, even though they haven't detected me.

==
So these two different modes of hunting use very different setups.

I no longer use any dedicated thermal scopes ... I use either lasers on carbines for W&S or clipons on rifles for overwatch. This means I have no dedicated day guns and no dedicated night guns. All guns are day/night. And on over watch I'm using my day scope reticle with known zero and known DOPE for holding. The only downsides to thermal clipons, is
(a) They are not free (the useable ones are all over $10k MSRP)
(b) They go thru periods of unobtainium (for past 9 months we've been in a rare period of "obtainable" though we seem to be approaching another period of "unobtainium")

So, if (a) and (b) are insurmountable for you at the moment, then putting together a dedicated night gun with a HALO-LR would be my choice. This gives you a mil-box holding reticle, which Hide members have validated out to 500yds.
This would be for what I call "overwatch" ...

For walking and stalking ... the Steiner OTAL for around $450 is what I use ... with the Luna ELIR-3 illum ... and dual band setup on helmet ... one PVS-14 and one skeet or patrol on there as well. New patrol M300W street price is under $7k so you don't have to bust thru the $10k barrier to get there.

So, if you're like me, ultimately you need both ... W&S setup(s) and Overwatch setups(s) for different conditions and terrain ... but $$ might indicate doing one first and then following up later with the other. Which one first? Depends on your terrain and which mode of critter control/hunting you would be using most often ... W&S or overwatch ??

Most W&S shots for me are under 100yds ... a few out as far as 150yds ... and alot even under 50yds ... yes ... yotes and I have a numerous surprise "meeting engagements" when I'm walkin and stalkin ... and surprisingly they start to "move off" but do not especially hurry ... not the "roadrunner style" runs they engage in after 1st shot (if they are still moving). Most overwatch shots are 200-400yds for me ... shooting thru tree lines out into open pastures against yotes in with the cattle.

So, let us know what critter control/hunting style you are thinking of engaging in initially and we can try to further advise !!

 

[NateSavannah]

For me, there are two modes of critter control ...

01 - Walking and Stalking

02 - Overwatch

I mostly use W&S in the warmer half of the year. I live along a creek system with tree lines and other thick vegetation on both sides of the creeks and feeder streams. In the winter, I can see though some of these, in the summer I can see thru none of them and must get out and move on foot in the woods to intercept the critters coming in, mostly on my chickens, but during calving also coming in on the new born calves. I use dual band on helmet and laser on carbine for W&S.

In the cooler half of the year, I mostly use overwatch. That is setting up in a good spot with lots of LOS in multiple directions ... on an RRS tripod with a rifle and day scope and a thermal clipon. Or rarely (usually in snow) an NV clipon. When on overwatch, I am continuously doing 360s and indexing the critter groups I see out there ... keeping track of what is going on. Until I see a predator group rolling in ... then I determine initial ideal engagement location and use a trap lead based on that location. Relevant critter groups are usually moving, even though they haven't detected me.

==
So these two different modes of hunting use very different setups.

I no longer use any dedicated thermal scopes ... I use either lasers on carbines for W&S or clipons on rifles for overwatch. This means I have no dedicated day guns and no dedicated night guns. All guns are day/night. And on over watch I'm using my day scope reticle with known zero and known DOPE for holding. The only downsides to thermal clipons, is
(a) They are not free (the useable ones are all over $10k MSRP)
(b) They go thru periods of unobtainium (for past 9 months we've been in a rare period of "obtainable" though we seem to be approaching another period of "unobtainium")

So, if (a) and (b) are insurmountable for you at the moment, then putting together a dedicated night gun with a HALO-LR would be my choice. This gives you a mil-box holding reticle, which Hide members have validated out to 500yds.
This would be for what I call "overwatch" ...

For walking and stalking ... the Steiner OTAL for around $450 is what I use ... with the Luna ELIR-3 illum ... and dual band setup on helmet ... one PVS-14 and one skeet or patrol on there as well. New patrol M300W street price is under $7k so you don't have to bust thru the $10k barrier to get there.

So, if you're like me, ultimately you need both ... W&S setup(s) and Overwatch setups(s) for different conditions and terrain ... but $$ might indicate doing one first and then following up later with the other. Which one first? Depends on your terrain and which mode of critter control/hunting you would be using most often ... W&S or overwatch ??

Most W&S shots for me are under 100yds ... a few out as far as 150yds ... and alot even under 50yds ... yes ... yotes and I have a numerous surprise "meeting engagements" when I'm walkin and stalkin ... and surprisingly they start to "move off" but do not especially hurry ... not the "roadrunner style" runs they engage in after 1st shot (if they are still moving). Most overwatch shots are 200-400yds for me ... shooting thru tree lines out into open pastures against yotes in with the cattle.

So, let us know what critter control/hunting style you are thinking of engaging in initially and we can try to further advise !!

Thanks for the reply.
in your opinion M300W or MH25?

 

[SkyScrapin]

@TheHorta Have you tried the Skeet Binos on the Nightcap? Probably requires more counterweight than a standard remote 10k mah Anker, correct?

 

[wigwamitus]

Well, I might be a "racist"

But I lean hard over towards USA made items ... at this point in time ... I trust them to hold up in the field ... I go out at night 200+ nights per year, rain or shine, hot or cold ... and the chinese stuff has not held up whereas the USA stuff has ... further 4 of my six thermals right now have BAE cores ... all the trijicon thermals and both of the Halos also use the BAE cores ... and I trust them to perform in all conditions I've encountered (-20F up to 110F) including Noah's rain ... and .300WM recoil with hundreds of rounds ... etc.

The M300W can be used as a dedicated thermal as a secondary purpose. And I use mine as both a dedicated thermal and a clipon ... on the .22LR ...

==

Patrol as a dedicated thermal on .22LR(16) ^^
==

If you can find a used one ... from far enough back ... they can also be used as clipons ... the new ones have that capability removed ... but the trade-off will be that officially you loose the warranty and would have to pay for repairs. Trijicon will repair a unit you buy used, but at greater than $0 cost. The warranty only applies to the original owner. If you're ok without the clipon capability, then get a new one with the warranty. The whole unit has lifetime warranty for the original owner except the "electronics" (i.e. mostly the BAE core) which is 3 years ...

https://www.trijicon.com/support/warranty
The TEO optics are covered in their own section on this page, scroll down a little until you see them mentioned.

Also apparently the new patrols have some demagnification removed, so they are now officially shown as 1.5x ... I assume this was done to save cost and avoid hiking up the price, but that's just a guess ... So you'll be 1.5x on one eye and 1x on the other with the patrol. But I wander around, even roll on the 4 wheeler, with the patrol on 2x and the 14 on 1x and it doesn't bother me ... YMMV ...
But this 1.5x change is likely why the clipon capability was removed. Clipons need to be net 1x thruput. They could've done that with software, but apparently decided not to.

 

[TheHorta]

@TheHorta Have you tried the Skeet Binos on the Nightcap? Probably requires more counterweight than a standard remote 10k mah Anker, correct?

Yeah, I use two 10K Ankers plus an 8oz lead bag counterweight on the back of the Nightcap, along with a few spare CR123’s for emergencies.

I’ll snap a pic when I get a free moment.

 

[NateSavannah]

Well, I might be a "racist"

But I lean hard over towards USA made items ... at this point in time ... I trust them to hold up in the field ... I go out at night 200+ nights per year, rain or shine, hot or cold ... and the chinese stuff has not held up whereas the USA stuff has ... further 4 of my six thermals right now have BAE cores ... all the trijicon thermals and both of the Halos also use the BAE cores ... and I trust them to perform in all conditions I've encountered (-20F up to 110F) including Noah's rain ... and .300WM recoil with hundreds of rounds ... etc.

The M300W can be used as a dedicated thermal as a secondary purpose. And I use mine as both a dedicated thermal and a clipon ... on the .22LR ...

==

Patrol as a dedicated thermal on .22LR(16) ^^
==

If you can find a used one ... from far enough back ... they can also be used as clipons ... the new ones have that capability removed ... but the trade-off will be that officially you loose the warranty and would have to pay for repairs. Trijicon will repair a unit you buy used, but at greater than $0 cost. The warranty only applies to the original owner. If you're ok without the clipon capability, then get a new one with the warranty. The whole unit has lifetime warranty for the original owner except the "electronics" (i.e. mostly the BAE core) which is 3 years ...

https://www.trijicon.com/support/warranty
The TEO optics are covered in their own section on this page, scroll down a little until you see them mentioned.

Also apparently the new patrols have some demagnification removed, so they are now officially shown as 1.5x ... I assume this was done to save cost and avoid hiking up the price, but that's just a guess ... So you'll be 1.5x on one eye and 1x on the other with the patrol. But I wander around, even roll on the 4 wheeler, with the patrol on 2x and the 14 on 1x and it doesn't bother me ... YMMV ...
But this 1.5x change is likely why the clipon capability was removed. Clipons need to be net 1x thruput. They could've done that with software, but apparently decided not to.

if that makes you racist, im one as well. honestly don't want to buy anything Chinese if I don't have to.

 

[wigwamitus]

... don't want to buy anything Chinese if I don't have to ...

Well then, that doesn't leave us much choice currently ...

Trijicon TEO (Trijicon Electro Optics ... i.e. the hunters and patrols and Reaps and Snipes)
N-VIsion (the Halos and some older FLIR cored units)
Insight/L-3 (the LWTS, LWTS-LR)
A few other used units made for US Military
older FLIR/Amasight commerical units which are hard to find ... but do exist.

... pretty much everything else we can buy right now has lots of parts made in the PRC, even if many of the units are "assembled" elsewhere as work around to avoid the mandatory "Made in PRC/Chinese" labels ... even the pulsars, which I was not aware of until relatively recently. But it helps explain why pulsar quality has become more and more erratic.

... don't want to buy anything Chinese if I don't have to ...

And I totally agree with this ... I spent literally an hour one day recently trying to find a USB battery that wasn't made in the PRC ... this is what I came up with ...

Amazon.com: Mediasonic 10400mAh Power Bank with 2 USB Port - 1 x 1.2A & 1 x 2.1A (External Battery Power Bank) (Black)

Buy Mediasonic 10400mAh Power Bank with 2 USB Port - 1 x 1.2A & 1 x 2.1A (External Battery Power Bank) (Black): Batteries - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

www.amazon.com

The words say made in Taiwan ... from Japanese cell ... the box it came in said "Sanyo" ...

But it works great is in the same price range ... and so far no issues ... but it is literally the ONLY one I could find.

==
EDIT: The mediasonic/sanyo has 2 x USB ports, so two batts not required to drive dual skeet setup

 

[jwramp]

So who's gonna track down an 'IR' pointer diode in the thermal-visible spectrum? Dual ChinaSkeets + aiming dot would be pretty excellent. Wonder if you could get something high output enough to show up against hot critters too...

 

[SkyScrapin]

So who's gonna track down an 'IR' pointer diode in the thermal-visible spectrum? Dual ChinaSkeets + aiming dot would be pretty excellent. Wonder if you could get something high output enough to show up against hot critters too...

LOL - I like the thought. Best make some safety goggles too while we're at it

 

[wigwamitus]

Thermal lasers have been around for a little while ?

Carbine Thermal Aiming Laser (CTAL) - LaserMaxDefense (LMD)

The CTAL operates in the thermal range and is designed for use with fielded thermal imagers, fully adjustable for windage and elevation.

www.lmd-corp.com

Can we buy them ? Not without a lot of paper work !

Can we afford them ? IIRC they run $60k plus !!

 

[CoryT]

Thermal lasers have been around for a little while ?

Carbine Thermal Aiming Laser (CTAL) - LaserMaxDefense (LMD)

The CTAL operates in the thermal range and is designed for use with fielded thermal imagers, fully adjustable for windage and elevation.

www.lmd-corp.com

Can we buy them ? Not without a lot of paper work !

Can we afford them ? IIRC they run $60k plus !!

31k for the dual Skeets, 60k more, mere bag of shells!

 

[Ledzep]

I'm a mere poor, but I've been having a lot of luck with a single FLIR Breach and clip-on NV.

 

[GBMaryland]

31k for the dual Skeets, 60k more, mere bag of shells!

you know if every member on the hide were to pool their money on a gofundme page, which of course I would be more than willing to start for us, we could buy a slightly used F-16 from the Air Force with a forward infrared looking pod....

 

[MarinePMI]

you know if every member on the hide were to pool their money on a gofundme page, which of course I would be more than willing to start for us, we could buy a slightly used F-16 from the Air Force with a forward infrared looking pod....

Lol! There's a story about a MiG (Flogger) in Ohio, that requested to take off...fully loaded with missiles. So, anything is possible...

 

[TheHorta]

you know if every member on the hide were to pool their money on a gofundme page, which of course I would be more than willing to start for us, we could buy a slightly used F-16 from the Air Force with a forward infrared looking pod....

Added to list.

 

[LibertyArms]

Added to list.

Lots a staws to draw who keeps it in their garage lol.

 

[sheepdog697]

CoronaSkeets solve that problem. Dual MH25's on a KAC bridge are basically the same price as a good set of NV binos -- $10K and you're in Thermal Nirvana.

How do you feel the chinaskeets perform for a 1/3 the cost? Do you feel they can be as reliable as the skeet IRs?
Also, how does eye fatigue differ from the dual thermals vs dual nods? I can have my UF L3 whites on all night and not have much issue...

 

[Jgunner]

When you guys are talking about china/corona skeets, what ARE you talking about? Iray?

 

[sheepdog697]

When you guys are talking about china/corona skeets, what ARE you talking about? Iray?

I can’t speak for others, but I was referring to the iRay MH25.

 

[TheHorta]

How do you feel the chinaskeets perform for a 1/3 the cost? Do you feel they can be as reliable as the skeet IRs?
Also, how does eye fatigue differ from the dual thermals vs dual nods? I can have my UF L3 whites on all night and not have much issue...

1) Image-quality wise, the iRAY MH25 (aka, #ChinaSkeet / #CoronaSkeet) performs just as well, to all practical extent, as the SkeetIRx. It’s is hands-down the best thermal image for the money.

2) Not sure about reliability. No way the MH25 is as robust as RealSkeet. I had a problem with one of the first units I received when replacing the eyepieces. The entire ocular turret pulled away from the housing. It was scary, and UNV handled it no problem, but it left me wondering about long term reliability.

3) I dial mine WAY down, so eye fatigue is not much different than dual WP NV tubes.

 

[sheepdog697]

1) Image-quality wise, the iRAY MH25 (aka, #ChinaSkeet / #CoronaSkeet) performs just as well, to all practical extent, as the SkeetIRx. It’s is hands-down the best thermal image for the money.

2) Not sure about reliability. No way the MH25 is as robust as RealSkeet. I had a problem with one of the first units I received when replacing the eyepieces. The entire ocular turret pulled away from the housing. It was scary, and UNV handled it no problem, but it left me wondering about long term reliability.

3) I dial mine WAY down, so eye fatigue is not much different than dual WP NV tubes.
View attachment 7368519
View attachment 7368520
View attachment 7368521

That’s awesome. Thanks for the reply

 

[jeffl838]

Anywhere with Mh25's on sale?

 

[sid]

I'm joining this discussion

I was considering getting a second pvs14, now I'm thinking maybe mh25

How do you guys use the thermal with pvs14? Both on at the same time and hope your brain fuses the image, or switch NV for walking and thermal for finding targets?

 

[wigwamitus]

I leave them both powered on all the time (well except when flipping up, I power both down when flipping up).

My default is to look thru both actively. The images don't perfectly fuze for me, there's an offset ... but like a tree, you'll see "double" ... your dominant eye will tend to squeeze out from your mind, the device on your non-dominant eye. For me, these days, that's the thermal since I am usually shooting with the laser. But my brain can "switch" back and forth between them by willing it to happen. If I want a "hard" switch for safety reasons, I use my eye lids as on/off switches.

It might take some getting used to. It didn't for me. I wanted it to work so badly, that for me it just did. Others have reported that it doesn't work for them. I can't say why not? It works for me and I love it ! Very liberating to be able to move and see dual band hands free. Rolling along on the 4-wheeler seeing critters 180 degrees to the left and 180 degrees to the right ... hundreds of yards out. Yotes ignore vehicle noises, even at night around me. I can stop the 4-wheeler, leave it running and use it as sound cover while I complete stallking in. Mobile sound cover !!

 

[STI 45]

So what is the best way to mount my new MH25 alongside a PVS-14.
Looking at Knight Vision Universal Mount from TNVC is there a better way?

 

[MarinePMI]

IC bridge seems like a no brainer as well...

 

[TheHorta]

 

[SkyScrapin]

View attachment 7369912

Brother, you ain’t got the Rona. That’s the bubonic plague.

 

[jeffl838]

It'd be cool if someone could make a hud projector that clipped onto i2 that could Bluetooth or wifi to a thermal sensor mounted directly to the helmet. Would give you a beefier sensor to fuse with but it would offset the weight.

 

[UpSideDown]

This thread sucks without cell phone camera pics looking through your space goggles.

 

[GBMaryland]

Will KAC build me a bridge to mount two on a helmet?

It occurs to me that KAC will build you anything you want if you have enough money.

 

[wigwamitus]

I know many of you are "all in" on the "corona/chinese/iray/skeets ... I've been talking with about of folks about the pros and cons of various alternatives ... and just thought I post of summary of those discussions ...

In particular this will be a comparison between the IRAY and the PATROL.

UNV shown price for the MH25 is $4499
And my understanding is that there is no "flex" in this price. If anyone knows otherwise, please post.

Optics Planet shown price for IR-Patrol is MSRP $7,000.
Most of us know that if you call OP on the phone and say "I will buy today you give me 10% off", they will say yes. That's the business they are in. AKA "Break Bulk". They routinely have 10% off sales all you are asking is that you be given a 10% coupon today, in exchange for buying today. Its a no brainer for them. So that means the known street price of the Patrol is $6,300.

So for purposes of this discussion, we have an $1,800 gap to work with. And the question is, what aspects of the Patrol make it worth that $1,800 ... and what aspect of the patrol fall short of the MH25 ? I.E. what the net plus of the Patrol versus the IRAY, if any ?

Some aspects in favor of the patrol:


USA Made
3 year warranty on core
Lifetime warranty on housing/lenses
Ability to get repaired (for $) for any user anytime
3x magnifier available (torrey pines)
Can be a weapon sight
More likely to stand up in harsh conditions
More battery packs available
Has an accessory rail which can be used to mount items such as RAPTAR, Radius, IR laser.
Comes with PVS-14 eyepiece installed
30mhz/60mhz frame rate, MH25 set to 50mhz)


Aspects in favor of the MH25:

1280x960 display does have some "shock and awe" on the image side ... especially in good conditions, at short distances, at low magnification (note both patrol and MH25 use 12 micro 640-480 front end sensor)
length: 5 inches (patrol 6 inches)
Weight: 8.6 oz (patrol 16 oz)
UNV shows PVS-14 as a separate $329 accessory, to be user installed

==
Gallery

On this evening, buddy and I went on night creek walk out and back 1.5 each way (3 miles total) with a stop at the far end destination for observing, ranging, recording distances, in essence, building a range card.

This was my helmet setup. The patrol on left eye with radius attached. The radius adds another pound. Did it bother me ? No.
I had correct counter-weight and I've been going out at night avg 10hrs per week for 7.5 (going on 8) years ... so I'm used to a helmet with some weight on it. All I thought about was what I wanted to do next. Buddy took point, I took #2. So he was path finder (he kept his head mounted thermal off) and I was 360 spotter (I kept my 14 off). I called the critters I detected, distance and azimuth and helped him acquire them. We had radios and headsets so we could whisper and still hear each other, if needed.
Point is the weight, might seem like an issue, but I don't find it to be. And I was not sore afterwards or the next day.
I don't say lighter weight is not good. Lighter weight is good. I just also say, more weight for important gear, is not a show stopper. And for the ability to range out to 3000 meters at night ... the patrol + 3x + radius gets the job done. I had the 3x in a pouch so could add it when needed.

If I will be in a position for some time, I add the 3x and a rear light shade.

It certainly makes the patrol look longer ... but note the patrol is actually only 1 inch longer (6 inch vs iray 5 inch).

Now that breach there is 3.75 inches long ... and 5 oz ... but breach detection ability is lesser and breach PID ability even more lesser ... though street price right now is around $2k ...

==
Well I wanted this to be a "good" post, but I have to go bale hay, so pressed "post" now ... will try to improve it later