why not more 22-250 trainers

gixxer822

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Minuteman
Sep 22, 2011
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Phx, Az
recently looked hard at a 223 trainer
-but i would need to buy another action
-223 mags for bolt guns can be a pain
-limited on other cals with that bolt face
- another piece of glass, trigger, chassis etc

so a buddy of mine said why not a 22-250

-feeds great out of my existing 308 mags
-use all my current equipment making it a switch barrel/remage or savage prefit
-shoots 75s and 80 grain bullets at 3300 fps easy.
-no finicky mags
to me this just sounds like a clear winner and a bad ass trainer.
barrel wear will be faster yes..... going from 26grains of powder in a 223 to 32/38 grains is a small cost.

is my thinking off?
 
i would think you would want something that shot closer to the FPS of your primary cartridge you competed with for a trainer. 22-250s as the guy above said are barrel burners which is part of the reason i got rid of mine decades ago.
 
Because you can't get more than six rounds to reliably feed in the mag. Too much body taper. I'm going to build a 22x47 for varmints, and have been going back and forth on the kids rifle being the same or a 223. Fast twist and 80 grain. You can load the powder low and get decent barrel life, and still load some hot rods when you want them
 
i would think you would want something that shot closer to the FPS of your primary cartridge you competed with for a trainer. 22-250s as the guy above said are barrel burners which is part of the reason i got rid of mine decades ago.

Most people I know what a trainer for the cheaper cost per round, longer barrel life while getting reps. Having matching ballistics to your competition gun isn't usually isn't high on the priority list for most, but if you can do it and that works for you go for it.
 
I was running my 22-250 at 3115 for practice and PRS club matches. Could easily run 3400 with a Max charge. I don't have personal experience with the Ackley to know how it would run. Yes I was using AICS mags. The rounds stack bad with the taper. The top rounds will nosedive from the shot with over six rounds. You need a curved mag like an AK to run more. I think I can get another 50fps on the top end with the 22x47, but still get acceptable results under the 3200 speed limit for the kids at the PRS type matches.
 
.223AI would be my pick. It will quickly become your favorite. You'll get 10K plus rounds from your barrel at a fraction of the cost, noise and recoil. Steve Timm, former Editor if Varmint Hunter Magazine ran his Schneider barrel .223AI over 20K rounds, including some 500 round shooting sessions. If you want a switch barrel, just buy an extra bolt.
 
.223AI would be my pick. It will quickly become your favorite. You'll get 10K plus rounds from your barrel at a fraction of the cost, noise and recoil. Steve Timm, former Editor if Varmint Hunter Magazine ran his Schneider barrel .223AI over 20K rounds, including some 500 round shooting sessions. If you want a switch barrel, just buy an extra bolt.

lol my 223 was on its last leg at 3k rounds...velocity was already down 200 fps...
 
If you're wanting to run a switch barrel trainer off an existing 308 bolt face using your current gun, might consider a 6BR. 6mm bullets like Hornady BTHP or Nosler CC can be fairly cheap, not too much powder ~30g, good barrel life, and tack driving accuracy. Just need to drop in a magazine feeding kit from PVA or Primal Rights and you should be able to rock and roll.
 
If you're wanting to run a switch barrel trainer off an existing 308 bolt face using your current gun, might consider a 6BR. 6mm bullets like Hornady BTHP or Nosler CC can be fairly cheap, not too much powder ~30g, good barrel life, and tack driving accuracy. Just need to drop in a magazine feeding kit from PVA or Primal Rights and you should be able to rock and roll.

This. Or, make it a 6 Dasher. You might decide you like it so much it will go from being your trainer to your primary competition rifle.
 
I love my .223 built off a Savage 12FV in a Bell and Carlson stock with a CDI bottom metal kit. It is a trainer for my .243. If the match is 600 yards and in, I just run the .223. It is a joy to shoot. I load 25 grains of Varget in Lapua brass with leftover 75 grain AMAX bullets. I beat a .22-250 in a match last weekend with the .223 in a timed event because I can follow my shots quickly due to the light recoil.
 
You don't need a so-called "trainer" more than shooting a caliber that gives you a handicap. 22-250 should be fine. I wouldn't brag about a .223 beating one if the score was close. I often shoot .257 right up there against .243 and .264. Shooting with the right handicap will make you pay more attention to the fundamentals, reloading correctly, wind calling, and blah blah blah.
 
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shilen, mostly 77s and 80s at 2850 from a 26"

had some 53s @ 3400 thru it also

Thats shitty. Mine has about 2k 55 v max at 3330. About 1k 55 Sierra HPBT 3315. About 1500 77 at 2900-2950. 900 53 v max at 3450. Its a 26" factory Remington, and still going strong. I went through a couple hundred each 60 sp, 60 hp. 52 hpbt match, and 55 speer TNT also.
 
Thats shitty. Mine has about 2k 55 v max at 3330. About 1k 55 Sierra HPBT 3315. About 1500 77 at 2900-2950. 900 53 v max at 3450. Its a 26" factory Remington, and still going strong. I went through a couple hundred each 60 sp, 60 hp. 52 hpbt match, and 55 speer TNT also.

yea, it still shot OK, but it was a hammer up until then...it shot ragged holes with everything and hammered with the 80s at 2850...once it slowed down i couldnt fit enough powder in there to get the speed back up and it stayed about 3/4-1moa until i had the chamber chopped off and recut to a 22creed...22creed shoots real good now w/ 80s @ 3300
 
When I think of a "trainer" I think of something that makes more training more affordable, thus the 223. Sure a 22250 is only a little bit more but that's a little bit more across the board which adds up. 10 grains more is almost a 50% increase in powder by itself and on the level of a dasher which is a prs round so how much of a trainer (savings) is it vs just a different hot rodded caliber?
 
I've got a spreadsheet that allows you to calculate the cost of shooting, both for components, brass life, and barrel life/barrel cost. Comparing a conservative 6mm (6BR, lower velocity Dasher load) to a 223 it's only about $0.10/round difference all-in. The incremental component cost difference is more like $0.05/rd.

The cost of tooling up my rifle to be a switch barrel 223 trainer (mags, bolt face, cleaning rod, go gauge, savage wrench, etc) would be enough that it would take me about 4000 rounds to break even on the trainer. And I'd be shooting a round with more wind drift and less splash on target out past 500-950 yards (most of my targets are in this distance range).

It's a good idea to crunch the numbers on what tooling up for the new caliber will cost and what the break-even point really is. Barrel life estimates play a really big part in your actual cost, as do brass life estimates.
 
Exactly, so why would someone exacerbate the problem with a caliber that doesnt significantly cut costs? 223 does. Sure its only .10 cents per shot but thats a 40% difference. I can load a 223 for .24 cents a shot. Going to 22-250 makes that .29 cents per shot on powder alone and then the extra cost for 22 250 brass that wont last as long comparatively and is more expensive to start with and the large primer which is a cent per shot or there abouts. I figure half the barrel life of a 223. All that makes it cost just as much as simply shooting your normal barrel or rifle more. Youll run trough a 22-250 barrel in the same amount of time as a 243 so why not just order up a second 243 barrel each time and come out ahead if pure performance is what one is after (which is the point yall are making. I feel I agree with you but I feel like yall dont agree with me somehow unless those comments werent directed towards me)


But I also really enjoy shooting my 223 and I already have it and who on here doesnt already have more than 1 caliber. If you want something cheap to shoot why would you not get something cheap to shoot.
I figure if someone wants to get as much shooting in as possible for the most shots per dollar then they should go 22lr. But in reloading I can make 223 ammo for the same amount per shot as eley black box so why not shoot a 223 if I enjoy it?
 
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Same goes for what ever caliber one chooses. Some of you cheese dicks post shit from both sides of your asses just to post shit. People actually read your dribble and notice the bullshit.
 
I've got a spreadsheet that allows you to calculate the cost of shooting, both for components, brass life, and barrel life/barrel cost. Comparing a conservative 6mm (6BR, lower velocity Dasher load) to a 223 it's only about $0.10/round difference all-in. The incremental component cost difference is more like $0.05/rd.

The cost of tooling up my rifle to be a switch barrel 223 trainer (mags, bolt face, cleaning rod, go gauge, savage wrench, etc) would be enough that it would take me about 4000 rounds to break even on the trainer. And I'd be shooting a round with more wind drift and less splash on target out past 500-950 yards (most of my targets are in this distance range).

It's a good idea to crunch the numbers on what tooling up for the new caliber will cost and what the break-even point really is. Barrel life estimates play a really big part in your actual cost, as do brass life estimates.

Now thats interesting. How are you calculating brass costs? Between the 6 BR and 223. Or is the BR have that much more barrel life? Considering the cost and BC of some of the good 6mm bullets it might be worth making the switch, or at least adding one to the collection. Might replace a .308. Seems to do about the same thing with significantly less cost per round. I like having a little bit more recoil though. I feel like I get sloppy when I shoot my 223 a lot. {sloppier anyway}
 
Now thats interesting. How are you calculating brass costs? Between the 6 BR and 223. Or is the BR have that much more barrel life? Considering the cost and BC of some of the good 6mm bullets it might be worth making the switch, or at least adding one to the collection. Might replace a .308. Seems to do about the same thing with significantly less cost per round. I like having a little bit more recoil though. I feel like I get sloppy when I shoot my 223 a lot. {sloppier anyway}

PM me your email address, I'll send you my spreadsheet calculator.
 
Exactly, so why would someone exacerbate the problem with a caliber that doesnt significantly cut costs? 223 does. Sure its only .10 cents per shot but thats a 40% difference. I can load a 223 for .24 cents a shot. Going to 22-250 makes that .29 cents per shot on powder alone and then the extra cost for 22 250 brass that wont last as long comparatively and is more expensive to start with and the large primer which is a cent per shot or there abouts. I figure half the barrel life of a 223. All that makes it cost just as much as simply shooting your normal barrel or rifle more. Youll run trough a 22-250 barrel in the same amount of time as a 243 so why not just order up a second 243 barrel each time and come out ahead if pure performance is what one is after (which is the point yall are making. I feel I agree with you but I feel like yall dont agree with me somehow unless those comments werent directed towards me)


But I also really enjoy shooting my 223 and I already have it and who on here doesnt already have more than 1 caliber. If you want something cheap to shoot why would you not get something cheap to shoot.
I figure if someone wants to get as much shooting in as possible for the most shots per dollar then they should go 22lr. But in reloading I can make 223 ammo for the same amount per shot as eley black box so why not shoot a 223 if I enjoy it?

Do you buy .223 brass for trainer loads? I have picked up enough LC once fired (verified by primer crimp) that I think I could weight sort and have somewhat consistent brass. Well for free brass anyways. With the popularity of ARs these days I have 5 gallon buckets full.
 
Do you buy .223 brass for trainer loads? I have picked up enough LC once fired (verified by primer crimp) that I think I could weight sort and have somewhat consistent brass. Well for free brass anyways. With the popularity of ARs these days I have 5 gallon buckets full.

Normally just my once fired but I bought a box of Lapua when I saw it in sale to see if I can make anything better out of it. Verdict is still out on it on whether it can actually lead to an appreciable gain in accuracy. The primer pockets are really nice.
 
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And some people seem to just enjoy being a constant dick.

Right, Iceberg dead ahead. Only a dick would not read the OP in it's entirety and see he has already addressed the economics of his decision. Only a dick would start his posts like most of her snowflake shit with, "I feel like..." And then turn the thread into a groupie self-absorbed shit that has nothing to do with the OP. A dick is about as helpful as pointing out dried cum in her sister's hair.
 
Replying directly to the OP; your thinking is not off; it parallels many here, especially from the past. Some of the really older timers here will remember the commitment Baldboy put into this fast twist, heavy bullet concept.

But does your buddy follow his own advice; and if not, why not?

I tried this with a varmint .22-250, and even with the sub-60gr varmint bullets, barrel heating during training routines that attempted to duplicate the 22rd in 30min competitive COF brought barrel temps to alarmingly high levels. Using the basic technique of holding the back or the palm against the aft end of the barrel for a count of ten, one could not even get the palm near contact without stopping right there. The last five (at least) or ten rounds of the 22 rounds' POI's were opened up to several multiples of the cold barrel size. No joy there.

Now I find that dissatisfying to say the least. It's an exercise in barking up the wrong tree. I sold the gun to keep myself from destroying it in my zeal.

I even sponsored a group project using .223 and 22-250 with reduced loads (52SMK, 7gr Unique for .223, 9gr Unique for .22-250). The two competing solutions were equally terrible whenever the wind rose to even a mild degree. It was a bad premise that proved nothing. But it was also done as an informal match and there was a lot of humor those few days.

This all brought me back to the .223. It can be shot to transsonic in a shorter distance, making more training venues suitable. Its inherent performance does not mask the shooter's limitations with superior drop and drift performance.

If I wanted to make shooting amplify the shooter's limitations, I'd actually be shooting a .22LR. But the .22LR is going though a paroxysm of speculative hoarding, and this, once again, improves the .223's image. This itself is a big part of my own reasoning in favoring the .223 as a training vehicle.

I've been dabbling in F T/R. I use the Savage 11VT (for about $550 a pop) as my trainer, and as my entry-level competitive rifle. I have two, a .223 and a .308. The .223 is my trainer and my MR competitor rifle. The .308 serves as the main competitor, primarily for LR. For heavy usage training, I shoot the .223 at 100yd with PPU 55gr FMJBT. I save the brass and make 75gr match loads from it. At 100yd, the 55gr FMJBT shoots well enough from the gun to serve as a reliable training round at this shorter distance. For wind work, I stretch it out to 300Meters. Accuracy doesn't duplicate match ammo so well, but the overall drop and drift can be very informative at 300m.

Meanwhile, I'm not burning barrels, I can do the training work at more easily reached venues, and the recurring costs are kept to a reasonable minimum. I also know that when I do my final match prep with the real deal 75gr HPBT-Match ammo at 300m with the MR-63 target, performance is going to hew to a finer line.

There will be another 11VT in my future, onto which I will replace the factory .308 barrel with an aftermarket .260 barrel, to use for F Open training/comps. The 11VT package rifles, with suitable optics replacements, are virtually identical, making ergonomics indistinguishable between the rifles. They run somewhere around $550 each, sometimes there are rebates, and the included package scope is not bad for mounting on a hunter. Otherwise, the rifle is perfectly configured as a trainer, and as an entry level competitor's rifle.

At 70, with my health, massive equipment expenditures are not warranted. Simply being able to get back into that competition, with personal bests as my goal, I am more than satisfied with this approach.

They also serve, who....

Meanwhile, I can also use the experience as a mentoring opportunity for my Grandkids.

.223 magazines. The subject has been very adequately addressed with the Mossberg MVP line of rifles. Some of their newer MVP LR offerings are looking pretty nifty. BTW, the MVP also supports the .308 with M-14/M1A magazines, and those mags will also work with their brandy new 6.5CM MVP LR.

Triggers. The AccuTrigger is fine by me and many others.

Glass. Some will pooh-pooh this because it doesn't cost in the megabuckage range, but I find it absolutely adequate for my own precision rifle shooting. It is offered with both Mil-Dot and fine target dot reticles. The side focus alone is an upgrade. I own two of these and will be buying 3 more.

Rings. Vortex, these are medium height and would work with the supplied 2-piece bases. I would order the low ones for use with a sloped (10 MOA/20 MOA) single piece base.

I might suggest the 6mm XC, instead. I also like it as a viable alternative to the 6.5 Grendel.

Greg
 
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