Why SBR when you can bullpup?

[madppcs]

Man Ive gotten more and more attracted to a bullpup 5.56 and 308 like the Tavor recently. Ive always wanted to SBR one of my lowers, but then the pistol builds pulled me away from an SBR. Now since I bought a Barret M99 thats a bullpup, I got to thinking why would I need an SBR when I can get 16" carbine performance in a small package like a bullpup.

So do you fellas have a preference over one or the other? I rather the looks of an SBR, but a 16" bullpup should out perform an SBR in every way right?

 

[powerspc]

Bullpups are great I have the Tavor SAR in 5.56, Tavor X95 in .300BLK and the Steyr AUG in 5.56; I am also eagerly awaiting the Tavor 7 which was introduced at SHOT this year (so should be hitting the streets sometime around 2020). I also own a number of SBR’s in various calibers (7.62, 5.56, .300 BLK) on both AR platforms and the FN SCAR; as with almost everything firearm related it’s never really a question of “this” versus “that”. There are plusses and minuses to both. Probably the most obvious benefit with an SBR is the familiarity with the functions and controls of the AR platform (some of this has been addressed in the bullpup market with the introduction of the X95 and SCAR’s aside for the moment). Bullpups give you the advantage of maneuverability with the shortened overall length as compared to a standard 16” barrel AR-15.

From there volumes have been written comparing the two platforms to the point of nausea. To me it’s no different than saying “what’s better a revolver or a semi-auto?” They’re both great, both solve problems inherent in the other and both fill a need based on the user’s demands. My advice? Build an SBR it’s a worthwhile exercise that will also introduce you to the wonders of NFA (assuming you already haven’t experience that) and a good learning experience overall. While you are waiting for your stamp ($200 and about a 12 month wait; don't let this deter you) you can try out a bullpup and then decide for yourself whether there is a true “champion” .

 

[hlee]

I think bullpups are cool, but you asked “why not bullpups?” So here goes.

Bullpups are more expensive than sbr ar15s, even including the stamp.
I can diy an sbr ar15 (or pistol with brace) to my specs in my house. Not so much on a bullpup.
Bullpups have Marginally better ballistics with a substantially heavier rifle.
Even good bullpup triggers suck.
Bullpups have Weird ergos and handling.
Sbr ballistics are sufficient over typical ranges sbrs are employed.
I’m sure there are others, but bullpups are still cool.

 

[powerspc]

hlee speaks the truth; although I will add that Geissele resolved the trigger issues on the SAR and X95 (the OEM X95 trigger is vastly improved over the SAR) with their Super Sabra Trigger Pack and Lightning Bow Trigger. There are also after market "fixes" for the Steyr AUG if you go the bullpup route.

 

[madppcs]

Ive got plenty of NFA, just lacking some SBRs lol.

 

[smokin.338]

the other part of that statement should be, "why bullpup when you can build a pistol w/ a brace" ??

As stated above... weight & trigger on all bullpups are meh at best !

You can build a 7.5 - 10.5" SBR @ right around 7 lbs and have your pick of Kick-ass triggers...

 

[schlaiek]

regarding the whole brace thing. how much do you trust the current ATF & court ruling regarding the legal interpretation of the SBR vs. brace issue? I expect to see changes/reversals on these opinions, or misinterpretations at a county/state level. I don't own anything with a brace, and my advice would be to not expect the current legal understanding to exist forever (or even the rest of 2018).

weight & cost between a BCM/DD AR & X95 is pretty much a wash. I'd choose the AR for accuracy, though both will work from 1 to 300m for their intended purposes. the big challenge for bullpups is the standard of arms - it's simply different than an AR, which is the defacto standard for most of us (I think this is particularily true for mag changes).

all that being said, my go to rifle at home is my X95 - in the VERY unlikely event I have a home invasion (or similar) I cannot see a scenario where 1x 30 round mag would run out where I'd be still in the fight... The smaller size is just so much easier to move with inside of a home.

EDIT - one thought I neglected to add. I have a family firearms trust and several SBRs. I would never use them outside of their intended purpose - range toys. Civilian shootings are already a legal (and moral) nightmare for all involved and utilizing a weapon that is residing in a gray area scares the hell out of me. I can imagine all sorts of litigious scenarios with the under-worked and overpopulated private legal and media professions jump all over a shooting that involving a SBR, tax stamp or not.

 

[Wildfire1550]

I also feel that the pistol with a brace is the way to go

 

[Maser]

I've shot SBRs and bullpup style rifles and shotguns and for me I just don't like the feel of bullpups and knowing the the round is firing in the chamber literally right next to my head! Bullpups look cool and all, but they're just weird for me. My own personal opinion.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Any interest in semi auto bullpups I've ever had gets killed every time I see someone use one in a match.
They seem okay for close range bullet spraying but if you've ever seen someone attempt to shoot through small ports, off rooftops, off barricades or at close targets where bore/sight offset is important you'll want nothing to do with bullpups. And then there's the mag change thing and the weird increased recoil from unusual operating systems.
The SBR guys have none of these problems, they just have to be more aware of holdovers after 200 yards.

 

[Necessary 3vil]

I’m seriously considering a Kel-Tec RFB for another PDW and also seeing how most all of my babies are 308win, it just makes sense!

 

[schlaiek]

regarding the RFB. I had one, and wanted desperately to love it. I did not. While I admire the innovations that Keltec brings to the market, the products I've used were lacking. even as a range toy I found my RFB to be lacking in almost every way. check out some videos on the disassembly - it is not something you'd want to do in the field.

personally, if i was in the market for a 308 bullpup my search would stop & start with the forthcoming Tavor7.

 

[powerspc]

regarding the RFB. I had one, and wanted desperately to love it. I did not. While I admire the innovations that Keltec brings to the market, the products I've used were lacking. even as a range toy I found my RFB to be lacking in almost every way. check out some videos on the disassembly - it is not something you'd want to do in the field.

personally, if i was in the market for a 308 bullpup my search would stop & start with the forthcoming Tavor7.

What he says. Have the Tavor SAR in 5.56 and the Tavor X95 in .300BLK, can’t wait for the Tavor 7 in 7.62 (.308)

 

[schlaiek]

agreed - I don't expect the Tavor7 to be better than 2 MOA, at the best - with quality ammo. but, I also don't expect much better from a "rack grade" AR10. accurate semi autos are heavy, and have tight tolerances, which is a double edged sword. The Tovor7 will probably be well suited with an ACOG, LPV, or DMR type optic - I don't think they are marketing that rifle towards the long distance crowd.

 

[Ric O'shay]

The pistol brace seems to be about the only thing we are winning on lately regarding regulation.
I keep a low profile with any braced firearms, by not bringing them to certain gun clubs or ranges that may frown on the ruling or the firearm in general.
However I do love the current opinion and the option to employ it.
The AUG is on my list of wants, no harm in enjoying both platforms.

 

[hypno02]

I far more appreciate the ergnomics of a SBR to the ballistic advantage of a bullpup. And the trigger situation seals the deal.

 

[Necessary 3vil]

Nuff said...

 

[DannC]

I prefer my Tavor SAR to an AR. For me the ergonomics are superior. I can hold it in a firing position on my shoulder with one hand for extended periods of time . Try that with an AR ,even a SBR and it is only 26 inches long.
The trigger can be brought to a little over seven pounds with a little polishing of the internals and the removal of the redundant return spring.

 

[...]

regarding the whole brace thing. how much do you trust the current ATF & court ruling regarding the legal interpretation of the SBR vs. brace issue? I expect to see changes/reversals on these opinions, or misinterpretations at a county/state level. I don't own anything with a brace, and my advice would be to not expect the current legal understanding to exist forever (or even the rest of 2018).

Cats already out of the bag, too many of them out in circulation.....and their current interpretation of the law is in accordance with the written law....

it would be really hard for them to explain how they came to a ruling......reversed the ruling......THEN reversed the reversal of the ruling.

Braces are here to stay.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

The trigger can be brought to a little over seven pounds with a little polishing of the internals and the removal of the redundant return spring.

This is a good thing?

 

[schlaiek]

maybe braces will last, maybe they won't. I live in a "free" state, but others close by (I'm looking at your Illinois) have implemented laws that are contrary to any rational interpretation to the 2nd amendment or federal standards. unfortunately, politics trump rational discourse often times - if it didn't, the whole SBR/tax stamp & suppressor issues would have been deregulated when Trump took office.

the trigger on my X95 and Aug A3 suck compared to my upgraded AR triggers, but I've used both in friendly 2 & 3 gun comps and didn't feel like I was giving up anything. 200+ years, certainly - but at 1 to 200, it's all meh to me.

back to pups vs. SBRs, as long as your bullet is leaving the muzzle (at striking your target) with enough energy to properly expand, then go with whatever you want. Just note that crossing state lines or doing anything that involves law enforcement with a tax stamp could be a HUGE headache. I'm not aware of any legal precedence for shootings with suppressors or SBRs but I think left leaning lawyers would line up to get their pound of flesh and just going to court for something like that would be financially ruinous.

 

[Glassaholic]

While I really like the Tavor X95 I haven't been able to bring myself around to purchase one yet. I built my pistol a few years ago with the intention of using the Sig Brace at the time but then I got scarred by all the rumors that the ATF would ban braces and here we are in 2018 with no restrictions in sight but I ended up paying the $200 and SBRing my pistol and turning it into a rifle. I like both, but there's something about the look of the SBR - this is my 9" 300BLK

 

[schlaiek]

a 9" SBR in 300BO makes a lot of sense. is that tricky to tune for subsonics? is a variable gas block a requirement to move between sub & super? I need another AR like I need more taxes, but that looks really sweet...

 

[hlee]

a 9" SBR in 300BO makes a lot of sense. is that tricky to tune for subsonics? is a variable gas block a requirement to move between sub & super? I need another AR like I need more taxes, but that looks really sweet...

I cannot speak for the poster above, but the 8.5 inch 300 BO that I built cycles with both supers and subs with a non adjustable gas block, albeit without a can as I do not yet have one.

 

[flyer]

Why screw around?

SBR a PS90.

 

[Glassaholic]

a 9" SBR in 300BO makes a lot of sense. is that tricky to tune for subsonics? is a variable gas block a requirement to move between sub & super? I need another AR like I need more taxes, but that looks really sweet...

schlaiek, it has been tricky especially since I lived at 7500' elevation when I first built the rifle. I learned a lot through that build experience as my first inclination was that I needed an adjustable gas block but quickly found that to run the rifle effectively I always had the AGB adjusted full out so tossed the AGB in favor of a cheaper low profile gas block. I then thought I would need a lighter buffer so started out with a 3oz Spike's T1 (assuming the subsonics would provide less pressure), but had cycling issues which were resolved when I went back to an H2 buffer (Spikes Tactical T2 at 4.3oz), but still had a few cycling issues that had me scratching my head; I was using a fancy Lantac e-bcg (which can be seen in the pic) so decided one day to swap that out with a mil-spec bcg and lo and behold no more cycling issues. My final issue is the bolt won't lock back after a magazine dump all the time but I'm happy that I can go through the magazine without cycling issues.

I will say that I shoot 99% subsonics and 99% suppressed, but by and large what I've learned through the process is that when AAC developed the 300 Blackout they pretty much designed it to be used with stock AR-15 parts, nothing fancy is needed if you use a proper barrel and by "proper barrel" I mean one that has the appropriate gas port size drilled out, proper gas tube length, etc. I believe AAC developed the Blackout to be used with a 9" barrel with a pistol length gas tube and in this configuration you can basically use all standard AR-15 parts (outside of the barrel obviously), standard carbine spring and buffer and be good to go. If I would have just stuck to this when I first built my SBR I doubt I would have had any problems but instead I tried some different parts based on information from the internet.

One other challenge I faced was that I reload and I already had a boatload of Nosler Custom Competition 190gr HPBT bullets that I bought for super cheap a while back. I believe the 300BLK was designed to be used with 220gr bullets for subsonic use so I knew I might be facing some additional issues because of the lighter weight bullets I would be using. I am not sure how much that played a roll with my buffer and bcg (or maybe even why the bolt won't lock on the catch).

Overall this was meant to be a learning exercise as well as a fun project for me and it has been just that. Lessons learned - don't believe everything you read on the internet. I'd recommend finding some good sources (like AAC) or some of the barrel and parts makers (like KAK and others) and ask what they suggest.

 

[Potss]

Bullpup advantages:

1.) Longer barrel in shorter rifle. So slightly better terminal ballistics and less harsh on suppressors.

2.) No fucking around with the ATF.

AR15 SBR Build Advantages:

1.) Significantly more accurate.

2.) Better ergos.

3.) Better trigger.

4.) Quieter to the shooter with a suppressor.

5.) More reliable and greater access to replacement parts.

6.) Lighter, can be significantly lighter.

7.) Far more customizable to the end user.

8.) Can be cheaper or have significantly more performance.

9.) Access to more calibers.

Basically it boils down to: do you want to deal with the ATF or not. However, the current gen RDBs, especially with the MLOK handguards do make a really handy package. And if DTA ever stops fucking the dog on the MDR that might bring the gap closer.

 

[Necessary 3vil]

That’s pretty much where I’m at... I’ve got many calibers in the AR platform and the 300BLK is hard to beat in the quiet zone and accuracy out to the 200’ish zone.. BUT, I do not have a short 308WIN!
The bullpup seems nice and compact, yet doesn’t have the accessibility that an AR based gun has with triggers, optics, and especially the cool factor of the aftermarket bling..
With that said I’m committed to building a 10.5” 308 just to have it. I’ve got plenty of long range rifles and there’s just something about loading 308 from 90gr to 220gr for playing with the idea of killing anything out to 100yds to well, my hallway to the mailbox of my front yard. Made my decision on this thanks to a lot your input guys... it’ll be a stupid compact,folding stock, and takedown upper receiver that’ll fit nice and snug in my backpack or car. Parts are ordered, waiting game is now!

 

[Glassaholic]

That’s pretty much where I’m at... I’ve got many calibers in the AR platform and the 300BLK is hard to beat in the quiet zone and accuracy out to the 200’ish zone.. BUT, I do not have a short 308WIN!
The bullpup seems nice and compact, yet doesn’t have the accessibility that an AR based gun has with triggers, optics, and especially the cool factor of the aftermarket bling..
With that said I’m committed to building a 10.5” 308 just to have it. I’ve got plenty of long range rifles and there’s just something about loading 308 from 90gr to 220gr for playing with the idea of killing anything out to 100yds to well, my hallway to the mailbox of my front yard. Made my decision on this thanks to a lot your input guys... it’ll be a stupid compact,folding stock, and takedown upper receiver that’ll fit nice and snug in my backpack or car. Parts are ordered, waiting game is now!

Sounds like the perfect setup for the 375 Raptor - http://www.375raptor.com/375RAPTOR/
It is to the AR-10 what the 300 Blackout is for the AR-15 but with a lot more energy...

 

[plong]

In response to OP's original question: T R I G G E R ! Period.

 

[Necessary 3vil]

I’ve got the 45 Raptor

 

[Potss]

In response to OP's original question: T R I G G E R ! Period.

I mean, you can get the K&M M17S with an ELF trigger which is pretty fantastic. And the RDBs is shockingly good for a bullpu (at least from the few I've used). In fact I'd say the RDBs is as good as a Hiperfire EDT but with more takeup. And the aftermarket options for the Tavor/X95 and AUG are pretty good.

That said, yeah they will never be AR triggers or have the depth and range of excellent options the AR does.

 

[silentheart]

Why screw around?

SBR a PS90.

To spread your loads? ;-)

 

[Necessary 3vil]

I’ve thought about shortening the 16”

45Raptor barrel but not sure about the operating charactistics I’ll run into... 308 just seems easier to deal with out of a short barrel in my opinion! I love the idea of a hard hitting 30cal in a compact AR other than my magnum powder eat blackouts...

 

[ddavis]

I've had a Kel-Tec RDB for a few months now and haven't shot my 11" 5.56 since. The recoil impulse of the RDB is very strange in a good way. The ejection port is behind the mag so the bolt has to travel twice as far as it would with an AR. You can feel this when shooting it. The recoil is very slow and soft. Accuracy with 75 BTHP is consistently under 1.25" for 5 shots. The rifle is a bit rear heavy from the factory but with an 18 oz Spec-War it's balanced very well although a bit heavy overall.

I don't have bad triggers in ANY of my rifles. In fact I've never owned an AR with a mil-spec trigger and likely never will. I find the stock RDB trigger to be more than adequate. It feels like 3.5-4 lbs with no creep.

That being said, I'd never shoot a long range match with it. As people have stated, the ergonomics aren't great for shooting from odd positions and barricades and the height over bore is 3.5" which would be bad news for shooting through short windows, etc.

 

[Potss]

Accuracy with 75 BTHP is consistently under 1.25" for 5 shots.

I'm getting almost double that with mine at 100y, what load and what shooting position? Pics would be great, would love to try to replicate.

I also agree the recoil impulse on the RDB is shockingly good, only a touch less controllable than my tuned 16in ARs with AGBs, and they both have a pound over the RDB. As far as I can tell, the RDB's recoil system is actually very similar to the Stoner/KAC LMG and its Ultimax 100 grandfather. Which is to say a long stroke constant recoil system where the carrier never impacts the frame and instead you have a VERY long action spring. If Kel Tec would just step up their fucking QC (only been asking for this for 20 years) they'd shift a LOT more RDBs.

 

[ddavis]

I'm getting almost double that with mine at 100y, what load and what shooting position? Pics would be great, would love to try to replicate.

I also agree the recoil impulse on the RDB is shockingly good, only a touch less controllable than my tuned 16in ARs with AGBs, and they both have a pound over the RDB. As far as I can tell, the RDB's recoil system is actually very similar to the Stoner/KAC LMG and its Ultimax 100 grandfather. Which is to say a long stroke constant recoil system where the carrier never impacts the frame and instead you have a VERY long action spring. If Kel Tec would just step up their fucking QC (only been asking for this for 20 years) they'd shift a LOT more RDBs.

When I first got it, accuracy was pretty terrible. It ended up being that goofy pic rail screw that is not supposed to be torqued down very tight. I took the pic rail off, then put everything back together and in the process I used blue Loc-tite on that one screw, tightened it down hand tight, then loosened it maybe 1/8th of a turn. I use the same load in pretty much all of my rifles and it works well. I had a 223 Ackley bolt gun and that load would do sub .5 MOA for ten shots pretty easily. It was the easiest gun I had for shooting groups and that particular load shot much better than my post- fireform load which shot just over an inch with 80 Bergers. I've used the same load for a PRS Gas Gun match in my 18" AR and while it would only do 1.5" consistently, that was good enough for the size of targets we were shooting.

I run a 75 Hornady BTHP at 2.255" over 23.7 IMR 8208 XBR in LC brass with Wolf/Tula primers, or Rem 7.5 primers for the bolt gun. It did 2860 fps in the 27" bolt gun, 2750 in the 18" AR, and only about 2560 in the RDB. The RDB is just a slow barrel unfortunately. My SBR AR is a 9 twist and throws the 75's all over the place. I don't think it's stabilizing them.

 

[Necessary 3vil]

Huge thanks to KAK for super fast service and shipping! Here’s the result sor far...