![Cdy00004_zps383ec38b.jpg.html](http://[url="http://s1294.beta.photobucket.com/user/plunker20/media/Cdy00004_zps383ec38b.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2"]http://s1294.beta.photobucket.com/user/plunker20/media/Cdy00004_zps383ec38b.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2[/url])
This is a deer that i got on one of my trail cams shortly after season started
Sorry this one shows it a little better
![Cdy00003_zps34197940.jpg.html](http://[url="http://s1294.beta.photobucket.com/user/plunker20/media/Cdy00003_zps34197940.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0"]http://s1294.beta.photobucket.com/user/plunker20/media/Cdy00003_zps34197940.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0[/url])
Hunting & Fishing why you need high poundage on your bow
- Thread starter plunker20
- Start date
This is a deer that i got on one of my trail cams shortly after season started
Sorry this one shows it a little better
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
Here ya go. Hate to see 'em running around like pin cushions.
Here ya go. Hate to see 'em running around like pin cushions.
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
No matter the poundage you don't want to shoot them there, just sayin.
No matter the poundage you don't want to shoot them there, just sayin.
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
ya its not a good spot but i blew through the front leg of my buck this year and still wedge the arrow into a tree at 20yds.
ya its not a good spot but i blew through the front leg of my buck this year and still wedge the arrow into a tree at 20yds.
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
the arrow came out later in the season i seen him again with the blood spot like a week later
the arrow came out later in the season i seen him again with the blood spot like a week later
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">how did you do that</div></div>
Willy and I have been checking your trailcam.
When you're viewing the photo on photobucket, look to the right where it says Image Code. Left click the code and it should say 'copied'. Then paste it in your thread.
BTW. I almost got ran over by one of those SD deer while bird hunting. Ya'll have some big deer up there!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">how did you do that</div></div>
Willy and I have been checking your trailcam.
When you're viewing the photo on photobucket, look to the right where it says Image Code. Left click the code and it should say 'copied'. Then paste it in your thread.
BTW. I almost got ran over by one of those SD deer while bird hunting. Ya'll have some big deer up there!
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
that last picture you posted is the one i shot out of my tree stand , kind of a goofy deer mule deer face and ears and white tail butt and goofy crab claw on the front left fork
that last picture you posted is the one i shot out of my tree stand , kind of a goofy deer mule deer face and ears and white tail butt and goofy crab claw on the front left fork
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: plunker20</div><div class="ubbcode-body">that last picture you posted is the one i shot out of my tree stand , kind of a goofy deer mule deer face and ears and white tail butt and goofy crab claw on the front left fork </div></div>
I'm guessing you hunt where both whitetails and muleys live. He's not goofy, just a cross between the two.
At reasonable ranges, with good shot placemt, and sharp broadheads, a 35 lb bow is more than enough to take a mature buck.
This thread should be titled, where not to shoot a deer with a bow.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: plunker20</div><div class="ubbcode-body">that last picture you posted is the one i shot out of my tree stand , kind of a goofy deer mule deer face and ears and white tail butt and goofy crab claw on the front left fork </div></div>
I'm guessing you hunt where both whitetails and muleys live. He's not goofy, just a cross between the two.
At reasonable ranges, with good shot placemt, and sharp broadheads, a 35 lb bow is more than enough to take a mature buck.
This thread should be titled, where not to shoot a deer with a bow.
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
it should have been, but ive seen at lest two deer that have been shot from the top similar to this and have died. and your right it only takes about 30lbs to kill a deer, but velocity kills!
it should have been, but ive seen at lest two deer that have been shot from the top similar to this and have died. and your right it only takes about 30lbs to kill a deer, but velocity kills!
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
and according to the game and fish department the deer wont cross breed, but thats also coming from our government
and according to the game and fish department the deer wont cross breed, but thats also coming from our government
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
always sucks to see this... but in the realm of hunting, bad $hit happens... Like an earlier post said, not good placement, you can never practice enough when it comes to hunting/shooting... I'm willing to bet it's less than a 40lb draw wght. if it didn't penetrate the neck hide more than that... my Alphamax is set @ 87lbs, this would not of happened.
always sucks to see this... but in the realm of hunting, bad $hit happens... Like an earlier post said, not good placement, you can never practice enough when it comes to hunting/shooting... I'm willing to bet it's less than a 40lb draw wght. if it didn't penetrate the neck hide more than that... my Alphamax is set @ 87lbs, this would not of happened.
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: plunker20</div><div class="ubbcode-body">and according to the game and fish department the deer wont cross breed, but that's also coming from our government </div></div>
As I understand only Whitetail bucks will breed mule does. As the whitetail doe chase is more than a mulie will run for. and its uncommon for a Whitetail to get busted up by a mulie buck to breed a mulie doe. Never the less the offspring are all non reproductive. Just like Mules (Horse x Donkey Cross). So shoot em all.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: plunker20</div><div class="ubbcode-body">and according to the game and fish department the deer wont cross breed, but that's also coming from our government </div></div>
As I understand only Whitetail bucks will breed mule does. As the whitetail doe chase is more than a mulie will run for. and its uncommon for a Whitetail to get busted up by a mulie buck to breed a mulie doe. Never the less the offspring are all non reproductive. Just like Mules (Horse x Donkey Cross). So shoot em all.
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hlee</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: plunker20</div><div class="ubbcode-body">that last picture you posted is the one i shot out of my tree stand , kind of a goofy deer mule deer face and ears and white tail butt and goofy crab claw on the front left fork </div></div>
I'm guessing you hunt where both whitetails and muleys live. He's not goofy, just a cross between the two.
At reasonable ranges, with good shot placemt, and sharp broadheads, a 35 lb bow is more than enough to take a mature buck.
This thread should be titled, where not to shoot a deer with a bow. </div></div>
If he is seeing muleys by watertown that would be something i didnt in my first 22 years of life. Get aways from the missouri and there generaly are no mule deer
edit:looking closer at the pics sure looks like river breaks country so probally farther west than old h2otown probally around the gettysburg area
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hlee</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: plunker20</div><div class="ubbcode-body">that last picture you posted is the one i shot out of my tree stand , kind of a goofy deer mule deer face and ears and white tail butt and goofy crab claw on the front left fork </div></div>
I'm guessing you hunt where both whitetails and muleys live. He's not goofy, just a cross between the two.
At reasonable ranges, with good shot placemt, and sharp broadheads, a 35 lb bow is more than enough to take a mature buck.
This thread should be titled, where not to shoot a deer with a bow. </div></div>
If he is seeing muleys by watertown that would be something i didnt in my first 22 years of life. Get aways from the missouri and there generaly are no mule deer
edit:looking closer at the pics sure looks like river breaks country so probally farther west than old h2otown probally around the gettysburg area
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: plunker20</div><div class="ubbcode-body">and according to the game and fish department the deer wont cross breed, but thats also coming from our government </div></div>
government knows all...
here's a hybrid I had a few ops to take, obviously Whitetail with a Mule rack, guessing he's only 150, thinkin he survived, so next year he'll be big enough to star in "Booners gettin CANNED".
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: plunker20</div><div class="ubbcode-body">and according to the game and fish department the deer wont cross breed, but thats also coming from our government </div></div>
government knows all...
here's a hybrid I had a few ops to take, obviously Whitetail with a Mule rack, guessing he's only 150, thinkin he survived, so next year he'll be big enough to star in "Booners gettin CANNED".
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
Forget poundage, think about arrow weight. At one point years ago I got caught up in the "shoot light arrows, they don't drop as much" trap...I bought a faster bow shooting lighter arrows. Yeah, it shot pretty flat. But I lost several deer in a row due to lack of penetration (a couple recovered later proved this). To compound the problem, I used expandable broadheads.
Learning my lesson, I walked into the archery store and asked for the heaviest carbon arrows they had. I added on 100gr heads, and ended up with a cam bow shooting heavier arrows at just slightly higher velocity than my old wheel bow...not much improvement in trajectory.
The result, though, was that at 70lbs pull I have shot through every whitetail I have shot since, some hitting the shoulder blade. I shot an elk at 30 yds...hit the spine initially so I shot him again...the second shot hit the shoulder blade and still got both lungs. The third took both lungs under the shoulder blade and still exited (tags are expensive, arrows are cheap).
Pull weight is over-thought. Pull what you can comfortably....shoot heavy enough arrows and learn to range better.
Forget poundage, think about arrow weight. At one point years ago I got caught up in the "shoot light arrows, they don't drop as much" trap...I bought a faster bow shooting lighter arrows. Yeah, it shot pretty flat. But I lost several deer in a row due to lack of penetration (a couple recovered later proved this). To compound the problem, I used expandable broadheads.
Learning my lesson, I walked into the archery store and asked for the heaviest carbon arrows they had. I added on 100gr heads, and ended up with a cam bow shooting heavier arrows at just slightly higher velocity than my old wheel bow...not much improvement in trajectory.
The result, though, was that at 70lbs pull I have shot through every whitetail I have shot since, some hitting the shoulder blade. I shot an elk at 30 yds...hit the spine initially so I shot him again...the second shot hit the shoulder blade and still got both lungs. The third took both lungs under the shoulder blade and still exited (tags are expensive, arrows are cheap).
Pull weight is over-thought. Pull what you can comfortably....shoot heavy enough arrows and learn to range better.
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shamrockcattle</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: plunker20</div><div class="ubbcode-body">and according to the game and fish department the deer wont cross breed, but that's also coming from our government </div></div>
As I understand only Whitetail bucks will breed mule does. As the whitetail doe chase is more than a mulie will run for. and its uncommon for a Whitetail to get busted up by a mulie buck to breed a mulie doe. Never the less the offspring are all non reproductive. Just like Mules (Horse x Donkey Cross). So shoot em all.</div></div>
Muleys have been shown by genetic testing to be crosses between whitetails and blacktails. Their mitochondrial DNA is identical to whitetails, showing that they are the product of blacktail bucks and whitetail does. Further, blacktails and whitetails descend from a common ancestor deer- not that far removed from either. I strongly doubt that hybrids are sterile. But, they are likely rare enough not to form breeding populations.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shamrockcattle</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: plunker20</div><div class="ubbcode-body">and according to the game and fish department the deer wont cross breed, but that's also coming from our government </div></div>
As I understand only Whitetail bucks will breed mule does. As the whitetail doe chase is more than a mulie will run for. and its uncommon for a Whitetail to get busted up by a mulie buck to breed a mulie doe. Never the less the offspring are all non reproductive. Just like Mules (Horse x Donkey Cross). So shoot em all.</div></div>
Muleys have been shown by genetic testing to be crosses between whitetails and blacktails. Their mitochondrial DNA is identical to whitetails, showing that they are the product of blacktail bucks and whitetail does. Further, blacktails and whitetails descend from a common ancestor deer- not that far removed from either. I strongly doubt that hybrids are sterile. But, they are likely rare enough not to form breeding populations.
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
holy hell batman thats alot of science shit right there. all i know is i shoot a 70lb bow with 7.4gr per inch arrows with 100gr rage 2 broad head and it destroys shit
holy hell batman thats alot of science shit right there. all i know is i shoot a 70lb bow with 7.4gr per inch arrows with 100gr rage 2 broad head and it destroys shit
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
I almost wonder if someone shot it from a ground blind and the arrow sliced up his back and then hit him in the back of the neck while his head was upright. It kinda makes sense if that happened. Either way, sucks to see it happened but even a 40lb bow at a down angle of that arrow would most likely have been enough to kill him.
Thats the reason I think it was a ground blind shot, quartering away while the head was up. Just look at it a bit more and you can see the line in the hide from behind the shoulder running up to the impact. That also would have slowed it down a bit if it was grinding on bone all the way to impact
I almost wonder if someone shot it from a ground blind and the arrow sliced up his back and then hit him in the back of the neck while his head was upright. It kinda makes sense if that happened. Either way, sucks to see it happened but even a 40lb bow at a down angle of that arrow would most likely have been enough to kill him.
Thats the reason I think it was a ground blind shot, quartering away while the head was up. Just look at it a bit more and you can see the line in the hide from behind the shoulder running up to the impact. That also would have slowed it down a bit if it was grinding on bone all the way to impact
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skinney</div><div class="ubbcode-body">always sucks to see this... but in the realm of hunting, bad $hit happens... Like an earlier post said, not good placement, you can never practice enough when it comes to hunting/shooting... I'm willing to bet it's less than a 40lb draw wght. if it didn't penetrate the neck hide more than that... <span style="font-weight: bold">my Alphamax is set @ 87lbs,</span> this would not of happened. </div></div>
Talk about overkill. I wouldnt want to try and pull that thing after being cold and stiff in a stand for a few hours. Not to mention tuning the damn thing with the correct arrow spine.
Of course, Im not your size either.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skinney</div><div class="ubbcode-body">always sucks to see this... but in the realm of hunting, bad $hit happens... Like an earlier post said, not good placement, you can never practice enough when it comes to hunting/shooting... I'm willing to bet it's less than a 40lb draw wght. if it didn't penetrate the neck hide more than that... <span style="font-weight: bold">my Alphamax is set @ 87lbs,</span> this would not of happened. </div></div>
Talk about overkill. I wouldnt want to try and pull that thing after being cold and stiff in a stand for a few hours. Not to mention tuning the damn thing with the correct arrow spine.
Of course, Im not your size either.
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: plunker20</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it should have been, but ive seen at lest two deer that have been shot from the top similar to this and have died. and your right it only takes about 30lbs to kill a deer, but velocity kills! </div></div>
Actually with a bow, youre wrong. Velocity with a rifle yes, due to the wound channel created by the shockwave. With a bow its all about KE (Kinetic Energy) i.e. Energy delivered on target is directly proportional to the arrows ability to pass through hide/meat/bone. There is no wound channel created by arrows other than the cutting surface of the broadhead.
There are a lot of archery KE calculators out there, check em out.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: plunker20</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it should have been, but ive seen at lest two deer that have been shot from the top similar to this and have died. and your right it only takes about 30lbs to kill a deer, but velocity kills! </div></div>
Actually with a bow, youre wrong. Velocity with a rifle yes, due to the wound channel created by the shockwave. With a bow its all about KE (Kinetic Energy) i.e. Energy delivered on target is directly proportional to the arrows ability to pass through hide/meat/bone. There is no wound channel created by arrows other than the cutting surface of the broadhead.
There are a lot of archery KE calculators out there, check em out.
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skinney</div><div class="ubbcode-body">always sucks to see this... but in the realm of hunting, bad $hit happens... Like an earlier post said, not good placement, you can never practice enough when it comes to hunting/shooting... I'm willing to bet it's less than a 40lb draw wght. if it didn't penetrate the neck hide more than that... my Alphamax is set @ 87lbs, this would not of happened. </div></div>
Crap skinney! 87# you shooting 1/4 mile with that thing
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skinney</div><div class="ubbcode-body">always sucks to see this... but in the realm of hunting, bad $hit happens... Like an earlier post said, not good placement, you can never practice enough when it comes to hunting/shooting... I'm willing to bet it's less than a 40lb draw wght. if it didn't penetrate the neck hide more than that... my Alphamax is set @ 87lbs, this would not of happened. </div></div>
Crap skinney! 87# you shooting 1/4 mile with that thing
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flounderv2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually with a bow, youre wrong. Velocity with a rifle yes, due to the wound channel created by the shockwave. With a bow its all about KE (Kinetic Energy) i.e. Energy delivered on target is directly proportional to the arrows ability to pass through hide/meat/bone. There is no wound channel created by arrows other than the cutting surface of the broadhead.
There are a lot of archery KE calculators out there, check em out. </div></div>
You are wrong too. KE goes up as the square of velocity,
KE=mv^2, with a bow what you really need is penetration, which you get from momentum, p=mv, so holding either mass or velocity constant and increasing the other will increase momentum. The problem with shooting real fast bows is that you normally drop arrow weight to get the higher speed. I shoot heavy (slow) arrows with a heavy pull weight and have blown through both shoulder blades of deer. My arrow would of penetrated on that shot.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flounderv2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually with a bow, youre wrong. Velocity with a rifle yes, due to the wound channel created by the shockwave. With a bow its all about KE (Kinetic Energy) i.e. Energy delivered on target is directly proportional to the arrows ability to pass through hide/meat/bone. There is no wound channel created by arrows other than the cutting surface of the broadhead.
There are a lot of archery KE calculators out there, check em out. </div></div>
You are wrong too. KE goes up as the square of velocity,
KE=mv^2, with a bow what you really need is penetration, which you get from momentum, p=mv, so holding either mass or velocity constant and increasing the other will increase momentum. The problem with shooting real fast bows is that you normally drop arrow weight to get the higher speed. I shoot heavy (slow) arrows with a heavy pull weight and have blown through both shoulder blades of deer. My arrow would of penetrated on that shot.
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flounderv2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Talk about overkill. I wouldnt want to try and pull that thing after being cold and stiff in a stand for a few hours. Not to mention tuning the damn thing with the correct arrow spine.
Of course, Im not your size either. </div></div>
I understand... BUT I'm not the guy that sits in the blind, it's spot and stalk method all the way, that is WHEN I bow hunt... I get just as much of a thrill killin em with a scoped rifle
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flounderv2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Talk about overkill. I wouldnt want to try and pull that thing after being cold and stiff in a stand for a few hours. Not to mention tuning the damn thing with the correct arrow spine.
Of course, Im not your size either. </div></div>
I understand... BUT I'm not the guy that sits in the blind, it's spot and stalk method all the way, that is WHEN I bow hunt... I get just as much of a thrill killin em with a scoped rifle
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dogmessiah</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flounderv2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually with a bow, youre wrong. Velocity with a rifle yes, due to the wound channel created by the shockwave. With a bow its all about KE (Kinetic Energy) i.e. Energy delivered on target is directly proportional to the arrows ability to pass through hide/meat/bone. There is no wound channel created by arrows other than the cutting surface of the broadhead.
There are a lot of archery KE calculators out there, check em out. </div></div>
You are wrong too. KE goes up as the square of velocity,
KE=mv^2, with a bow what you really need is penetration, which you get from momentum, p=mv, so holding either mass or velocity constant and increasing the other will increase momentum. The problem with shooting real fast bows is that you normally drop arrow weight to get the higher speed. I shoot heavy (slow) arrows with a heavy pull weight and have blown through both shoulder blades of deer. My arrow would of penetrated on that shot.
</div></div>
I'm a little confused what both of you are arguing towards here but based on a some calculations that I did, which were then backed up with some arrow calculators the KE changes very little for a given bow. With my bow it was as only about 5-8% change from 300gr to 540gr arrow weights.
The amount of energy a bow imparts is dictated by the limbs and draw length. If you change nothing but the arrow weight and leave the limbs/draw weight set, there's very little change in KE when you change arrow weights.
The limb flexture gives you the force, the draw length gives you the distance.
Work = F*D, Change neither, you can't get more work from the system.
Sounds a little wrong, but when you actually test a couple different arrows through a chrono, no other changes to the bow, they come out with small % differences in KE. Here's the data on my 2008 Commander at 29" with 60# limbs. I'm currently shooting 70# limbs backed to about 64-65#.
300gr - 61.2FPE
360gr - 63.6FPE
420gr - 64.6FPE
480gr - 63.2FPE
540gr - 60.6FPE
There's a thread on here from October that I started when I shot my first deer with a bow. Neck shot with an OLD Mathews QD-32, pulls 54# @ 27" and she dropped like a rock when it hit the spine.
The next one I shot was my own bow, a 64/65# @ 29" draw commander.
Pass through with lung and aorta, 2 broken ribs from 42yd away.
I'm more of a "heavy @ medium speed" kind of shooter because I know it gives me good solid punch but there are LOTS of deer killed with light, medium velocity arrows from young archers shooting 40# bows.
I don't need 90# of draw weight because even at 40yd I get pass-throughs. Sitting in a stand gets cold and stiff like Aaron said, but the animals in PA are a lot smaller than in Skinney's neck of the woods.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dogmessiah</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flounderv2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually with a bow, youre wrong. Velocity with a rifle yes, due to the wound channel created by the shockwave. With a bow its all about KE (Kinetic Energy) i.e. Energy delivered on target is directly proportional to the arrows ability to pass through hide/meat/bone. There is no wound channel created by arrows other than the cutting surface of the broadhead.
There are a lot of archery KE calculators out there, check em out. </div></div>
You are wrong too. KE goes up as the square of velocity,
KE=mv^2, with a bow what you really need is penetration, which you get from momentum, p=mv, so holding either mass or velocity constant and increasing the other will increase momentum. The problem with shooting real fast bows is that you normally drop arrow weight to get the higher speed. I shoot heavy (slow) arrows with a heavy pull weight and have blown through both shoulder blades of deer. My arrow would of penetrated on that shot.
</div></div>
I'm a little confused what both of you are arguing towards here but based on a some calculations that I did, which were then backed up with some arrow calculators the KE changes very little for a given bow. With my bow it was as only about 5-8% change from 300gr to 540gr arrow weights.
The amount of energy a bow imparts is dictated by the limbs and draw length. If you change nothing but the arrow weight and leave the limbs/draw weight set, there's very little change in KE when you change arrow weights.
The limb flexture gives you the force, the draw length gives you the distance.
Work = F*D, Change neither, you can't get more work from the system.
Sounds a little wrong, but when you actually test a couple different arrows through a chrono, no other changes to the bow, they come out with small % differences in KE. Here's the data on my 2008 Commander at 29" with 60# limbs. I'm currently shooting 70# limbs backed to about 64-65#.
300gr - 61.2FPE
360gr - 63.6FPE
420gr - 64.6FPE
480gr - 63.2FPE
540gr - 60.6FPE
There's a thread on here from October that I started when I shot my first deer with a bow. Neck shot with an OLD Mathews QD-32, pulls 54# @ 27" and she dropped like a rock when it hit the spine.
The next one I shot was my own bow, a 64/65# @ 29" draw commander.
Pass through with lung and aorta, 2 broken ribs from 42yd away.
I'm more of a "heavy @ medium speed" kind of shooter because I know it gives me good solid punch but there are LOTS of deer killed with light, medium velocity arrows from young archers shooting 40# bows.
I don't need 90# of draw weight because even at 40yd I get pass-throughs. Sitting in a stand gets cold and stiff like Aaron said, but the animals in PA are a lot smaller than in Skinney's neck of the woods.
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dogmessiah</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flounderv2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually with a bow, youre wrong. Velocity with a rifle yes, due to the wound channel created by the shockwave. With a bow its all about KE (Kinetic Energy) i.e. Energy delivered on target is directly proportional to the arrows ability to pass through hide/meat/bone. There is no wound channel created by arrows other than the cutting surface of the broadhead.
There are a lot of archery KE calculators out there, check em out. </div></div>
You are wrong too. KE goes up as the square of velocity,
KE=mv^2, with a bow what you really need is penetration, which you get from momentum, p=mv, so holding either mass or velocity constant and increasing the other will increase momentum. The problem with shooting real fast bows is that you normally drop arrow weight to get the higher speed. I shoot heavy (slow) arrows with a heavy pull weight and have blown through both shoulder blades of deer. My arrow would of penetrated on that shot.
</div></div>
I'm a little confused what both of you are arguing towards here but based on a some calculations that I did, which were then backed up with some arrow calculators the KE changes very little for a given bow. With my bow it was as only about 5-8% change from 300gr to 540gr arrow weights.
The amount of energy a bow imparts is dictated by the limbs and draw length. If you change nothing but the arrow weight and leave the limbs/draw weight set, there's very little change in KE when you change arrow weights.
The limb flexture gives you the force, the draw length gives you the distance.
Work = F*D, Change neither, you can't get more work from the system.
Sounds a little wrong, but when you actually test a couple different arrows through a chrono, no other changes to the bow, they come out with small % differences in KE. Here's the data on my 2008 Commander at 29" with 60# limbs. I'm currently shooting 70# limbs backed to about 64-65#.
300gr - 61.2FPE
360gr - 63.6FPE
420gr - 64.6FPE
480gr - 63.2FPE
540gr - 60.6FPE
There's a thread on here from October that I started when I shot my first deer with a bow. Neck shot with an OLD Mathews QD-32, pulls 54# @ 27" and she dropped like a rock when it hit the spine.
The next one I shot was my own bow, a 64/65# @ 29" draw commander.
Pass through with lung and aorta, 2 broken ribs from 42yd away.
I'm more of a "heavy @ medium speed" kind of shooter because I know it gives me good solid punch but there are LOTS of deer killed with light, medium velocity arrows from young archers shooting 40# bows.
I don't need 90# of draw weight because even at 40yd I get pass-throughs. Sitting in a stand gets cold and stiff like Aaron said, but the animals in PA are a lot smaller than in Skinney's neck of the woods. </div></div>
Josh, You may want to revisit your calcs.. they are off significantly! Guessing you fat fingered something in Excel. But ill use this against you forever going forward.
Using KE=mv^2 with a static 275FPS arrow speed we get:
300gr - 50.3 KE .36p (p=Momentum)
360gr - 60.3 KE .44p
420gr - 70.4 KE .51p
480gr - 80.5 KE .58p
540gr - 92.1 KE .67p
As you can see, KE and p (p=Momentum)increase almost almost linearly in relation to each other as you increase mass so you can argue it anyway you want.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dogmessiah</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flounderv2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually with a bow, youre wrong. Velocity with a rifle yes, due to the wound channel created by the shockwave. With a bow its all about KE (Kinetic Energy) i.e. Energy delivered on target is directly proportional to the arrows ability to pass through hide/meat/bone. There is no wound channel created by arrows other than the cutting surface of the broadhead.
There are a lot of archery KE calculators out there, check em out. </div></div>
You are wrong too. KE goes up as the square of velocity,
KE=mv^2, with a bow what you really need is penetration, which you get from momentum, p=mv, so holding either mass or velocity constant and increasing the other will increase momentum. The problem with shooting real fast bows is that you normally drop arrow weight to get the higher speed. I shoot heavy (slow) arrows with a heavy pull weight and have blown through both shoulder blades of deer. My arrow would of penetrated on that shot.
</div></div>
I'm a little confused what both of you are arguing towards here but based on a some calculations that I did, which were then backed up with some arrow calculators the KE changes very little for a given bow. With my bow it was as only about 5-8% change from 300gr to 540gr arrow weights.
The amount of energy a bow imparts is dictated by the limbs and draw length. If you change nothing but the arrow weight and leave the limbs/draw weight set, there's very little change in KE when you change arrow weights.
The limb flexture gives you the force, the draw length gives you the distance.
Work = F*D, Change neither, you can't get more work from the system.
Sounds a little wrong, but when you actually test a couple different arrows through a chrono, no other changes to the bow, they come out with small % differences in KE. Here's the data on my 2008 Commander at 29" with 60# limbs. I'm currently shooting 70# limbs backed to about 64-65#.
300gr - 61.2FPE
360gr - 63.6FPE
420gr - 64.6FPE
480gr - 63.2FPE
540gr - 60.6FPE
There's a thread on here from October that I started when I shot my first deer with a bow. Neck shot with an OLD Mathews QD-32, pulls 54# @ 27" and she dropped like a rock when it hit the spine.
The next one I shot was my own bow, a 64/65# @ 29" draw commander.
Pass through with lung and aorta, 2 broken ribs from 42yd away.
I'm more of a "heavy @ medium speed" kind of shooter because I know it gives me good solid punch but there are LOTS of deer killed with light, medium velocity arrows from young archers shooting 40# bows.
I don't need 90# of draw weight because even at 40yd I get pass-throughs. Sitting in a stand gets cold and stiff like Aaron said, but the animals in PA are a lot smaller than in Skinney's neck of the woods. </div></div>
Josh, You may want to revisit your calcs.. they are off significantly! Guessing you fat fingered something in Excel. But ill use this against you forever going forward.
Using KE=mv^2 with a static 275FPS arrow speed we get:
300gr - 50.3 KE .36p (p=Momentum)
360gr - 60.3 KE .44p
420gr - 70.4 KE .51p
480gr - 80.5 KE .58p
540gr - 92.1 KE .67p
As you can see, KE and p (p=Momentum)increase almost almost linearly in relation to each other as you increase mass so you can argue it anyway you want.
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flounderv2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dogmessiah</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flounderv2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually with a bow, youre wrong. Velocity with a rifle yes, due to the wound channel created by the shockwave. With a bow its all about KE (Kinetic Energy) i.e. Energy delivered on target is directly proportional to the arrows ability to pass through hide/meat/bone. There is no wound channel created by arrows other than the cutting surface of the broadhead.
There are a lot of archery KE calculators out there, check em out. </div></div>
You are wrong too. KE goes up as the square of velocity,
KE=mv^2, with a bow what you really need is penetration, which you get from momentum, p=mv, so holding either mass or velocity constant and increasing the other will increase momentum. The problem with shooting real fast bows is that you normally drop arrow weight to get the higher speed. I shoot heavy (slow) arrows with a heavy pull weight and have blown through both shoulder blades of deer. My arrow would of penetrated on that shot.
</div></div>
I'm a little confused what both of you are arguing towards here but based on a some calculations that I did, which were then backed up with some arrow calculators the KE changes very little for a given bow. With my bow it was as only about 5-8% change from 300gr to 540gr arrow weights.
The amount of energy a bow imparts is dictated by the limbs and draw length. If you change nothing but the arrow weight and leave the limbs/draw weight set, there's very little change in KE when you change arrow weights.
The limb flexture gives you the force, the draw length gives you the distance.
Work = F*D, Change neither, you can't get more work from the system.
Sounds a little wrong, but when you actually test a couple different arrows through a chrono, no other changes to the bow, they come out with small % differences in KE. Here's the data on my 2008 Commander at 29" with 60# limbs. I'm currently shooting 70# limbs backed to about 64-65#.
300gr - 61.2FPE
360gr - 63.6FPE
420gr - 64.6FPE
480gr - 63.2FPE
540gr - 60.6FPE
There's a thread on here from October that I started when I shot my first deer with a bow. Neck shot with an OLD Mathews QD-32, pulls 54# @ 27" and she dropped like a rock when it hit the spine.
The next one I shot was my own bow, a 64/65# @ 29" draw commander.
Pass through with lung and aorta, 2 broken ribs from 42yd away.
I'm more of a "heavy @ medium speed" kind of shooter because I know it gives me good solid punch but there are LOTS of deer killed with light, medium velocity arrows from young archers shooting 40# bows.
I don't need 90# of draw weight because even at 40yd I get pass-throughs. Sitting in a stand gets cold and stiff like Aaron said, but the animals in PA are a lot smaller than in Skinney's neck of the woods. </div></div>
Josh, You may want to revisit your calcs.. they are off significantly! Guessing you fat fingered something in Excel. But ill use this against you forever going forward.
Using KE=mv^2 with a static 275FPS arrow speed we get:
300gr - 50.3 KE .36p (p=Momentum)
360gr - 60.3 KE .44p
420gr - 70.4 KE .51p
480gr - 80.5 KE .58p
540gr - 92.1 KE .67p </div></div>
You're right that the KE goes up if you fix the speed and raise the mass but that's <span style="font-weight: bold">fundamentally wrong</span> in how the system works. Heavier arrow, lower launch velocity.
The velocity doesn't stay constant when you change arrow weight.
For my bow the weight to velocity relationship is ~3.3gr more arrow weight is 1fps loss.
You leave the bow poundage set.
You leave the draw weight set.
You shoot the 300gr arrow through a chrono, record the velocity.
You shoot a 360gr arrow through a chrono, record the velocity.
Etc.
If you could just jack the arrow weight and get a constant arrow speed then we'd all be shooting 1000gr arrows from 25# bows and killing elephants, but that doesn't work.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flounderv2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dogmessiah</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flounderv2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually with a bow, youre wrong. Velocity with a rifle yes, due to the wound channel created by the shockwave. With a bow its all about KE (Kinetic Energy) i.e. Energy delivered on target is directly proportional to the arrows ability to pass through hide/meat/bone. There is no wound channel created by arrows other than the cutting surface of the broadhead.
There are a lot of archery KE calculators out there, check em out. </div></div>
You are wrong too. KE goes up as the square of velocity,
KE=mv^2, with a bow what you really need is penetration, which you get from momentum, p=mv, so holding either mass or velocity constant and increasing the other will increase momentum. The problem with shooting real fast bows is that you normally drop arrow weight to get the higher speed. I shoot heavy (slow) arrows with a heavy pull weight and have blown through both shoulder blades of deer. My arrow would of penetrated on that shot.
</div></div>
I'm a little confused what both of you are arguing towards here but based on a some calculations that I did, which were then backed up with some arrow calculators the KE changes very little for a given bow. With my bow it was as only about 5-8% change from 300gr to 540gr arrow weights.
The amount of energy a bow imparts is dictated by the limbs and draw length. If you change nothing but the arrow weight and leave the limbs/draw weight set, there's very little change in KE when you change arrow weights.
The limb flexture gives you the force, the draw length gives you the distance.
Work = F*D, Change neither, you can't get more work from the system.
Sounds a little wrong, but when you actually test a couple different arrows through a chrono, no other changes to the bow, they come out with small % differences in KE. Here's the data on my 2008 Commander at 29" with 60# limbs. I'm currently shooting 70# limbs backed to about 64-65#.
300gr - 61.2FPE
360gr - 63.6FPE
420gr - 64.6FPE
480gr - 63.2FPE
540gr - 60.6FPE
There's a thread on here from October that I started when I shot my first deer with a bow. Neck shot with an OLD Mathews QD-32, pulls 54# @ 27" and she dropped like a rock when it hit the spine.
The next one I shot was my own bow, a 64/65# @ 29" draw commander.
Pass through with lung and aorta, 2 broken ribs from 42yd away.
I'm more of a "heavy @ medium speed" kind of shooter because I know it gives me good solid punch but there are LOTS of deer killed with light, medium velocity arrows from young archers shooting 40# bows.
I don't need 90# of draw weight because even at 40yd I get pass-throughs. Sitting in a stand gets cold and stiff like Aaron said, but the animals in PA are a lot smaller than in Skinney's neck of the woods. </div></div>
Josh, You may want to revisit your calcs.. they are off significantly! Guessing you fat fingered something in Excel. But ill use this against you forever going forward.
Using KE=mv^2 with a static 275FPS arrow speed we get:
300gr - 50.3 KE .36p (p=Momentum)
360gr - 60.3 KE .44p
420gr - 70.4 KE .51p
480gr - 80.5 KE .58p
540gr - 92.1 KE .67p </div></div>
You're right that the KE goes up if you fix the speed and raise the mass but that's <span style="font-weight: bold">fundamentally wrong</span> in how the system works. Heavier arrow, lower launch velocity.
The velocity doesn't stay constant when you change arrow weight.
For my bow the weight to velocity relationship is ~3.3gr more arrow weight is 1fps loss.
You leave the bow poundage set.
You leave the draw weight set.
You shoot the 300gr arrow through a chrono, record the velocity.
You shoot a 360gr arrow through a chrono, record the velocity.
Etc.
If you could just jack the arrow weight and get a constant arrow speed then we'd all be shooting 1000gr arrows from 25# bows and killing elephants, but that doesn't work.
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
Yeah I got what you saying Josh and your right. I wanted to stick with a static calculation as the % of fps drop as arrow mass increases will be dependent on bow manufacture, brace height, strings, limbs, etc. Was just trying to keep it simple.
Besides. I still dont like you.
Yeah I got what you saying Josh and your right. I wanted to stick with a static calculation as the % of fps drop as arrow mass increases will be dependent on bow manufacture, brace height, strings, limbs, etc. Was just trying to keep it simple.
Besides. I still dont like you.
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
Kinetic energy, velocity, arrow weight, draw weight.....BS.
None of it makes up for shitty shooting, and that was a shitty shot.
Kinetic energy, velocity, arrow weight, draw weight.....BS.
None of it makes up for shitty shooting, and that was a shitty shot.
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flounderv2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Using KE=mv^2 with a static 275FPS arrow speed we get:
300gr - 50.3 KE .36p (p=Momentum)
360gr - 60.3 KE .44p
420gr - 70.4 KE .51p
480gr - 80.5 KE .58p
540gr - 92.1 KE .67p
As you can see, KE and p (p=Momentum)increase almost almost linearly in relation to each other as you increase mass so you can argue it anyway you want. </div></div>
They do vary linearly with relation in a change to mass, but not to a change in velocity. Thus if you are shooting heavy slow arrows, and light fast arrows out of the same bow, they will have about the same KE, but the heavy slow arrows will have a greater momentum and will thus penetrate/break bone much better. What you loose is short range trajectory. Long range trajectory is actually better with the heavy arrows, as is the case with heavy/light bullets. If I remember correctly the distance where two trajectories invert (varies depending on the variables) is around 40 yards.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flounderv2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Using KE=mv^2 with a static 275FPS arrow speed we get:
300gr - 50.3 KE .36p (p=Momentum)
360gr - 60.3 KE .44p
420gr - 70.4 KE .51p
480gr - 80.5 KE .58p
540gr - 92.1 KE .67p
As you can see, KE and p (p=Momentum)increase almost almost linearly in relation to each other as you increase mass so you can argue it anyway you want. </div></div>
They do vary linearly with relation in a change to mass, but not to a change in velocity. Thus if you are shooting heavy slow arrows, and light fast arrows out of the same bow, they will have about the same KE, but the heavy slow arrows will have a greater momentum and will thus penetrate/break bone much better. What you loose is short range trajectory. Long range trajectory is actually better with the heavy arrows, as is the case with heavy/light bullets. If I remember correctly the distance where two trajectories invert (varies depending on the variables) is around 40 yards.
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
I have had luck with 70#- 480gr arrow. Last chrono test went 303-306. I haven't calculated the ke. I shoot this hunting whitetails to keep in shape for elk. Haven't shot but one elk and he was in my front pocket. Had a pass through but should at 9 yards. I have seen pass throughs at 60+ with a set up similar to this. This is over kill for WT but I haven't seen one to dead yet. YMMV
I have had luck with 70#- 480gr arrow. Last chrono test went 303-306. I haven't calculated the ke. I shoot this hunting whitetails to keep in shape for elk. Haven't shot but one elk and he was in my front pocket. Had a pass through but should at 9 yards. I have seen pass throughs at 60+ with a set up similar to this. This is over kill for WT but I haven't seen one to dead yet. YMMV
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: plunker20</div><div class="ubbcode-body">holy hell batman thats alot of science shit right there. all i know is i shoot a 70lb bow with 7.4gr per inch arrows with 100gr rage 2 broad head and it destroys shit </div></div>
Guilty. I'm a scientist in the DNA sequencing field. If you think that was a lot of science, I hope you kept reading the thread...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wes_Mantooth</div><div class="ubbcode-body">None of it makes up for shitty shooting, and that was a shitty shot.</div></div>
Ding, ding, ding. Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner!!! This is as true with bows as it is with rifles- if not much more so...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: plunker20</div><div class="ubbcode-body">holy hell batman thats alot of science shit right there. all i know is i shoot a 70lb bow with 7.4gr per inch arrows with 100gr rage 2 broad head and it destroys shit </div></div>
Guilty. I'm a scientist in the DNA sequencing field. If you think that was a lot of science, I hope you kept reading the thread...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wes_Mantooth</div><div class="ubbcode-body">None of it makes up for shitty shooting, and that was a shitty shot.</div></div>
Ding, ding, ding. Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner!!! This is as true with bows as it is with rifles- if not much more so...
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
We were experiencing failure to pass through with Rage broad heads. So we went and shot a deer and practiced shooting it. This is with a 200lb Excalibur crossbow. This vid shows you can not shoot them in the neck. When butchering the deer. No vitals were hit. deer would have died from infection. failed to make it to the spinal cord or carotids. Got away from the mechanicals...
Other shots were double lungs. found the 1 1/4" fixed broad heads had better pass through in the chest than those bigger Rage mechanical.
Buddy always shooting in the head or neck with rifle I wanted to prove to him that you can NOT neck shoot with arrow...
Warning PITA would have a fit with this vid but no meat was hurt in this experiment...
<embed width="600" height="361" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowFullscreen="true" allowNetworking="all" wmode="transparent" src="http://static.photobucket.com/player.swf" flashvars="file=http%3A%2F%2Fvid709.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww91%2Ftsxshooter%2FVIDEO0264_zpsf02fbbb2.mp4">
http://s709.beta.photobucket.com/user/tsxshooter/media/VIDEO0264_zpsf02fbbb2.mp4.html
Cant figure the link stuff out... Click above and it will play.
We were experiencing failure to pass through with Rage broad heads. So we went and shot a deer and practiced shooting it. This is with a 200lb Excalibur crossbow. This vid shows you can not shoot them in the neck. When butchering the deer. No vitals were hit. deer would have died from infection. failed to make it to the spinal cord or carotids. Got away from the mechanicals...
Other shots were double lungs. found the 1 1/4" fixed broad heads had better pass through in the chest than those bigger Rage mechanical.
Buddy always shooting in the head or neck with rifle I wanted to prove to him that you can NOT neck shoot with arrow...
Warning PITA would have a fit with this vid but no meat was hurt in this experiment...
<embed width="600" height="361" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowFullscreen="true" allowNetworking="all" wmode="transparent" src="http://static.photobucket.com/player.swf" flashvars="file=http%3A%2F%2Fvid709.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww91%2Ftsxshooter%2FVIDEO0264_zpsf02fbbb2.mp4">
http://s709.beta.photobucket.com/user/tsxshooter/media/VIDEO0264_zpsf02fbbb2.mp4.html
Cant figure the link stuff out... Click above and it will play.
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
I have shot three deer in the neck with a bow easily recovered them all. I really don't see a problem with it if you know what you are doing and are capable.
I have shot three deer in the neck with a bow easily recovered them all. I really don't see a problem with it if you know what you are doing and are capable.
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dogmessiah</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have shot three deer in the neck with a bow easily recovered them all.</div></div>
Personally, I wouldn't brag about doing something stupid 3 times. Bowhunting gets a bad rep when people see pics like shown in this thread. If you don't have the self control to not take a bad shot, there are other hobbies that are probably a better fit. Knitting comes to mind.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dogmessiah</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have shot three deer in the neck with a bow easily recovered them all.</div></div>
Personally, I wouldn't brag about doing something stupid 3 times. Bowhunting gets a bad rep when people see pics like shown in this thread. If you don't have the self control to not take a bad shot, there are other hobbies that are probably a better fit. Knitting comes to mind.
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: matchking</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Personally, I wouldn't brag about doing something stupid 3 times. Bowhunting gets a bad rep when people see pics like shown in this thread. If you don't have the self control to not take a bad shot, there are other hobbies that are probably a better fit. Knitting comes to mind. </div></div>
I fail to see how it was stupid to do. I knew the equipment I had, I was able to make the shot, I did, and I got results. Where is the stupid part? I don't suggest someone who doesn't know what they are doing does it, but it can be done if you know what you are doing, and are capable.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: matchking</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Personally, I wouldn't brag about doing something stupid 3 times. Bowhunting gets a bad rep when people see pics like shown in this thread. If you don't have the self control to not take a bad shot, there are other hobbies that are probably a better fit. Knitting comes to mind. </div></div>
I fail to see how it was stupid to do. I knew the equipment I had, I was able to make the shot, I did, and I got results. Where is the stupid part? I don't suggest someone who doesn't know what they are doing does it, but it can be done if you know what you are doing, and are capable.
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dogmessiah</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I don't suggest someone who doesn't know what they are doing does it, ....</div></div>
Only someone "who doesn't know what they are doing" would do it!! Out of curiosity, what is your aiming point on the neck shot?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dogmessiah</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I don't suggest someone who doesn't know what they are doing does it, ....</div></div>
Only someone "who doesn't know what they are doing" would do it!! Out of curiosity, what is your aiming point on the neck shot?
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: matchking</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Only someone "who doesn't know what they are doing" would do it!! Out of curiosity, what is your aiming point on the neck shot? </div></div>
I have to disagree with you.
All three shots were on separate occasions, but all were very similar. I was living in Missouri at the time, and on land so I could do a lot of hunting and target shooting after high school let out. I was shooting 590gr arrows with fixed blade broadheads, and an 80lb 30" draw. All three times the deer were feeding in my direction at less than 20 yards. Because of the nonstop target practice I used to be a damn good shot. All three deer were feeding towards me with their neck to the ground at the time of the shot.
As for the aiming spot, it was a vertebrate. I don't know if you have had a deer feed towards you with it's neck down, but early in the bow season in Missouri (runs Sept 15-Jan 15) their hair isn't thick and you can see the vertebrate, they make great bulls eyes. They dropped on the spot
What part of this is stupid? I had the ability, knew what my equipment was capable of and got results.
ETA: All three shots were from a treestand as well.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: matchking</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Only someone "who doesn't know what they are doing" would do it!! Out of curiosity, what is your aiming point on the neck shot? </div></div>
I have to disagree with you.
All three shots were on separate occasions, but all were very similar. I was living in Missouri at the time, and on land so I could do a lot of hunting and target shooting after high school let out. I was shooting 590gr arrows with fixed blade broadheads, and an 80lb 30" draw. All three times the deer were feeding in my direction at less than 20 yards. Because of the nonstop target practice I used to be a damn good shot. All three deer were feeding towards me with their neck to the ground at the time of the shot.
As for the aiming spot, it was a vertebrate. I don't know if you have had a deer feed towards you with it's neck down, but early in the bow season in Missouri (runs Sept 15-Jan 15) their hair isn't thick and you can see the vertebrate, they make great bulls eyes. They dropped on the spot
What part of this is stupid? I had the ability, knew what my equipment was capable of and got results.
ETA: All three shots were from a treestand as well.
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dogmessiah</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: matchking</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Personally, I wouldn't brag about doing something stupid 3 times. Bowhunting gets a bad rep when people see pics like shown in this thread. If you don't have the self control to not take a bad shot, there are other hobbies that are probably a better fit. Knitting comes to mind. </div></div>
I fail to see how it was stupid to do. I knew the equipment I had, I was able to make the shot, I did, and I got results. Where is the stupid part? I don't suggest someone who doesn't know what they are doing does it, but it can be done if you know what you are doing, and are capable. </div></div>
It's not that YOU don't know what you are doing or don't know your equipment. Deer react to the sound of the string and move. Shooting at the neck gives around a 4 inch target area. Linear target area is much longer but then you are only paralyzing the animal. In hunting terms, this is a small area for archery equipment. You can actually shoot between the neck muscles and the windpipe as well as miss the arteries. If you do a necropsy on a deer and study the anatomy of the neck, you will see why it is an unwise shot to take. A slight movement on the deers part will result in a botched shot or a complete miss.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dogmessiah</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: matchking</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Personally, I wouldn't brag about doing something stupid 3 times. Bowhunting gets a bad rep when people see pics like shown in this thread. If you don't have the self control to not take a bad shot, there are other hobbies that are probably a better fit. Knitting comes to mind. </div></div>
I fail to see how it was stupid to do. I knew the equipment I had, I was able to make the shot, I did, and I got results. Where is the stupid part? I don't suggest someone who doesn't know what they are doing does it, but it can be done if you know what you are doing, and are capable. </div></div>
It's not that YOU don't know what you are doing or don't know your equipment. Deer react to the sound of the string and move. Shooting at the neck gives around a 4 inch target area. Linear target area is much longer but then you are only paralyzing the animal. In hunting terms, this is a small area for archery equipment. You can actually shoot between the neck muscles and the windpipe as well as miss the arteries. If you do a necropsy on a deer and study the anatomy of the neck, you will see why it is an unwise shot to take. A slight movement on the deers part will result in a botched shot or a complete miss.
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
Momentum is key, at 63lbs and 26" draw length I'm penetrating all i need to with 125g Thunderheads and 9.3 gpi sticks. Deer i shot last year smacked the upper shoulder slightly and blew right through.
Ive also dug several misses about 3" deep out of trees....those were not fun.
Momentum is key, at 63lbs and 26" draw length I'm penetrating all i need to with 125g Thunderheads and 9.3 gpi sticks. Deer i shot last year smacked the upper shoulder slightly and blew right through.
Ive also dug several misses about 3" deep out of trees....those were not fun.
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dogmessiah</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> What part of this is stupid? </div></div>
Not waiting for a better shot opportunity.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dogmessiah</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> What part of this is stupid? </div></div>
Not waiting for a better shot opportunity.
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Night Hunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Deer react to the sound of the string and move. Shooting at the neck gives around a 4 inch target area. Linear target area is much longer but then you are only paralyzing the animal. In hunting terms, this is a small area for archery equipment. You can actually shoot between the neck muscles and the windpipe as well as miss the arteries. If you do a necropsy on a deer and study the anatomy of the neck, you will see why it is an unwise shot to take. A slight movement on the deers part will result in a botched shot or a complete miss.
</div></div>
I agree with some of what you said. I used to shoot 6-7 deer a year and butchered them all myself, including keeping the neck meat, so I am familiar with the vitals in a deer's neck. Shooting between the neck muscles and the windpipe isn't really an option for the angle I was shooting at. Shooting from the top down like that you might miss the vitals and hit the edge of the neck, but you won't shoot between them. Shooting from the side I agree with you, and saw a guy do it twice with a rifle one time.
With regards to the deer moving, it is possible, as it is anytime you are archery hunting, but isn't as bad as you are making it out to be. Deer are much less likely to jump the string when they are not already on alert (none of these three were and is an important factor) and when they are facing you with their neck down feeding think about what their natural movements are. If it raises it's head without moving left or right, it is still dead. If it crouches in preparation to jump, it is still dead. I am not saying it is impossible, but it is not natural for a deer to jump straight sideways, especially when it isn't already on high alert. Also if you aim higher on the neck closer to the shoulders than the head, it is less likely to move that part of the neck as quickly.
If I only paralyze it so what? I am 20 yards away and it will take me 15 seconds to knock another arrow and shoot it again. Though it has been completely unnecessary for me to do. With the amount I used to practice, how close I was, and the deer not being on alert, it was no riskier of a shot than the average bowhunter shooting broadside at 35 yards.
Additionally heavier arrows are quieter off of the string than light fast arrows.
Could the deer of moved in the 1/5 of a second between when the string sound got there and the arrow did, yes. However if you get that upset over this situation stick to gun hunting, and guess what even then the animals can still move unexpectedly.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Night Hunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Deer react to the sound of the string and move. Shooting at the neck gives around a 4 inch target area. Linear target area is much longer but then you are only paralyzing the animal. In hunting terms, this is a small area for archery equipment. You can actually shoot between the neck muscles and the windpipe as well as miss the arteries. If you do a necropsy on a deer and study the anatomy of the neck, you will see why it is an unwise shot to take. A slight movement on the deers part will result in a botched shot or a complete miss.
</div></div>
I agree with some of what you said. I used to shoot 6-7 deer a year and butchered them all myself, including keeping the neck meat, so I am familiar with the vitals in a deer's neck. Shooting between the neck muscles and the windpipe isn't really an option for the angle I was shooting at. Shooting from the top down like that you might miss the vitals and hit the edge of the neck, but you won't shoot between them. Shooting from the side I agree with you, and saw a guy do it twice with a rifle one time.
With regards to the deer moving, it is possible, as it is anytime you are archery hunting, but isn't as bad as you are making it out to be. Deer are much less likely to jump the string when they are not already on alert (none of these three were and is an important factor) and when they are facing you with their neck down feeding think about what their natural movements are. If it raises it's head without moving left or right, it is still dead. If it crouches in preparation to jump, it is still dead. I am not saying it is impossible, but it is not natural for a deer to jump straight sideways, especially when it isn't already on high alert. Also if you aim higher on the neck closer to the shoulders than the head, it is less likely to move that part of the neck as quickly.
If I only paralyze it so what? I am 20 yards away and it will take me 15 seconds to knock another arrow and shoot it again. Though it has been completely unnecessary for me to do. With the amount I used to practice, how close I was, and the deer not being on alert, it was no riskier of a shot than the average bowhunter shooting broadside at 35 yards.
Additionally heavier arrows are quieter off of the string than light fast arrows.
Could the deer of moved in the 1/5 of a second between when the string sound got there and the arrow did, yes. However if you get that upset over this situation stick to gun hunting, and guess what even then the animals can still move unexpectedly.
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: matchking</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dogmessiah</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> What part of this is stupid? </div></div>
Not waiting for a better shot opportunity. </div></div>
My point is that under the right circumstances the neck can be a shot opportunity.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: matchking</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dogmessiah</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> What part of this is stupid? </div></div>
Not waiting for a better shot opportunity. </div></div>
My point is that under the right circumstances the neck can be a shot opportunity.
Re: why you need high poundage on your bow
Outside chance, looking at the strange angle, maybe he caught the full pass on the deer in front of him. Would be a freak happenstance, but far from impossible.
As for argument re: weight of draw weight/velocity/arrow weight. All important factors. Velocity is nice and per grain of arrow/inch helps trajectory and thereby forgiveness on range. But in today's age, if your flinging sticks at game, take advantage of a range finder and shoot enough to know your POI period.
Penetration is important in my book as typically releasing string on Moose/bear or caribou at yardages I wouldn't try on whitetails.
Outside chance, looking at the strange angle, maybe he caught the full pass on the deer in front of him. Would be a freak happenstance, but far from impossible.
As for argument re: weight of draw weight/velocity/arrow weight. All important factors. Velocity is nice and per grain of arrow/inch helps trajectory and thereby forgiveness on range. But in today's age, if your flinging sticks at game, take advantage of a range finder and shoot enough to know your POI period.
Penetration is important in my book as typically releasing string on Moose/bear or caribou at yardages I wouldn't try on whitetails.
