Wilcox RAPTAR S/ES w/Applied Ballistics Price Justification

[corym468]

Would someone please help me understand how they justify their exurbanite price tag? I find it hard to believe it cost them more than a few hundred bucks per unit to manufacture these. I know there are development and overhead costs, but this seems insane.

 

[Nik H]

I can offer my perspective

1. It does work better than anything I have ever used in an LRF
2. It is MIL-SPEC hardened so not likely you will hurt it through extreme use
3. Recapture of R&D, test (a BIG job as there are many to satisfy the DoD requirements) and certification costs. This is a huge part since the amortization costs are spread over a pretty small number of units as compared to consumer product volumes.

The largest reason

This is the price the military pays via contract. I realize that the lasers (not the LRF) are neutered (low power) but that is immaterial. Per Federal rules, a Military supplier that sells a product to the DoD cannot sell that product to others (including civilians) at a lower price.

 

[Rhed]

Here’s an article that explains some of the reasons why. https://precisionrifleblog.com/2018/08/26/extreme-long-range-tips-spotting-shots-ranging/. Not just for the Raptar. This article applies to any military grade. I.e. MARS, L3 Storm, L3 SPEAR, Wilcox MRF. If you’re serious about one, also the MARS is the newest in the block..

MARS-Lc Review & Order Link

First and foremost, Strictly Offensive Kit (SOK) is an Envision distributor. SOK is now offering MARS-Lc here: CLICK ME. An automatic $200 discount is applied at check. When Strictly Offensive Kit (SOK) first heard news of Envision’s weapon mounted laser range finder (WMLRF) with Applied...

www.snipershide.com

 

[_Windrider_]

I can offer my perspective

1. It does work better than anything I have ever used in an LRF
2. It is MIL-SPEC hardened so not likely you will hurt it through extreme use
3. Recapture of R&D, test (a BIG job as there are many to satisfy the DoD requirements) and certification costs. This is a huge part since the amortization is spread over a pretty small number of units as compared to consumer product volumes.

The largest reason

This is the price the military pays via contract. I realize that the lasers (not the LRF) are neutered (low power) but that is immaterial. Per Federal rules, a Military supplier that sells a product to the DoD cannot sell that product to others (including civilians) at a lower price.

But, the military gets full power. They don’t buy the neutered version Yet we get charged full power prices even though it’s a software thing and not a hardware thing.

 

[Nik H]

But, the military gets full power. They don’t buy the neutered version Yet we get charged full power prices even though it’s a software thing and not a hardware thing.

I get it but the component costs are the same and the unit is essentially identical so Wilcox has their hands tied.

The real tragedy is that Wilcox and other manufacturers could sell FP units to civilians. There is no Federal law prohibiting civilians from owning Class IIIb lasers. They don't do it to prevent idiots from hurting themselves and suing

 

[corym468]

I can offer my perspective

1. It does work better than anything I have ever used in an LRF
2. It is MIL-SPEC hardened so not likely you will hurt it through extreme use
3. Recapture of R&D, test (a BIG job as there are many to satisfy the DoD requirements) and certification costs. This is a huge part since the amortization costs are spread over a pretty small number of units as compared to consumer product volumes.

The largest reason

This is the price the military pays via contract. I realize that the lasers (not the LRF) are neutered (low power) but that is immaterial. Per Federal rules, a Military supplier that sells a product to the DoD cannot sell that product to others (including civilians) at a lower price.

1. So a $2.5k price tag might be justified
2. A little epoxy and a thicker board. What am I missing? Is it radiation hardened or EMP proof?
3. This is why companies should bid Development and Qualification on a separate cost plus contract from the production firm fixed price contract. Both consumers and taxpayers would be better off. Development and Qualification should always be a cost plus contract and production should be the firm fixed price contract, but that's another conversation entirely. I will say, the gov forcing the entire contract as firm fixed price is why the gov ends up paying exorbitant prices for the end item. Well that, limited production, the required paperwork, and required quality inspections/tests.

The largest reason:
There's a pretty simple solution for this.

1. Perform the development and qualification of the design on a separate contract up front.
2. Lot Testing - Produce a large lot. Quality inspect and acceptance test to the mil-std requirements until they have enough units to meet the gov's order.
3. Line item receipt - Sell the product to the gov with a line item price for the unit, a line item price for the Qual Inspect/Tests, a line item price for the required paperwork, and a line item price for the overhead driven by other misc. requirements in the contract.
4. Add to their Profit Margin - Sell the remaining unit from the lot as just the unit to the civilian market without the other line items that we don't want nor need.

Maybe a lawyer here could help me find what part of the law this violates.

 

[Nik H]

1. So a $2.5k price tag might be justified
2. A little epoxy and a thicker board. What am I missing? Is it radiation hardened or EMP proof?
3. This is why companies should bid Development and Qualification on a separate cost plus contract from the production firm fixed price contract. Both consumers and taxpayers would be better off. Development and Qualification should always be a cost plus contract and production should be the firm fixed price contract, but that's another conversation entirely. I will say, the gov forcing the entire contract as firm fixed price is why the gov ends up paying exorbitant prices for the end item. Well that, limited production, the required paperwork, and required quality inspections/tests.

The largest reason:
There's a pretty simple solution for this.

1. Perform the development and qualification of the design on a separate contract up front.
2. Lot Testing - Produce a large lot. Quality inspect and acceptance test to the mil-std requirements until they have enough units to meet the gov's order.
3. Line item receipt - Sell the product to the gov with a line item price for the unit, a line item price for the Qual Inspect/Tests, a line item price for the required paperwork, and a line item price for the overhead driven by other misc. requirements in the contract.
4. Add to their Profit Margin - Sell the remaining unit from the lot as just the unit to the civilian market without the other line items that we don't want nor need.

Maybe a lawyer here could help me find what part of the law this violates.

I can't comment on the technical differences that may drive cost without seeing the product requirements document that Wilcox received. Could be that all components had to be compliant to any number of MIL SPECS and Standards.

Your points are solid but no one in our illustrious government is interested in making things more efficient. Used to drive me crazy when I worked in Aerospace. We used to laugh at some of the requirements and even during times when we would be consulted prior to the solicitation being released, the Government /Military experts that wrote the requirements didn't care about receiving feedback from their suppliers. Suppliers who actually could have made it cheaper without sacrificing quality. That is one reason I left that sector.

You should lobby for appointment to head up the GAO responsible for defining rules connected to procurement of items by the DoD. Maybe we would all benefit

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

This has got to be one of the dumbest most ignorant threads on SH. Right up there with Quigley ford's and IOR ball garglers.

 

[_Windrider_]

I get it but the component costs are the same and the unit is essentially identical so Wilcox has their hands tied.

The real tragedy is that Wilcox and other manufacturers could sell FP units to civilians. There is no Federal law prohibiting civilians from owning Class IIIb lasers. They don't do it to prevent idiots from hurting themselves and suing

They’ve also had a monopoly on the market in the realm, so hopefully, with some of the newer products coming online will be forced to lower prices in order to compete, but we shall see

 

[zinny]

I get it but the component costs are the same and the unit is essentially identical so Wilcox has their hands tied.

The real tragedy is that Wilcox and other manufacturers could sell FP units to civilians. There is no Federal law prohibiting civilians from owning Class IIIb lasers. They don't do it to prevent idiots from hurting themselves and suing

The CFR specifically prevents manufacturers from selling class 3b and above lasers pratically everyone except under certain circumstances. For example there is a memorandum of understanding to allow manufacturers to sell such devices to the Department of Defense and Law Enforcement Agencies. There are no other laws/regs governing lasers; nothing on civilian ownership, of it being legal or illegal.

The entire grey market for FP lasers is a look the other way situation. The FDA is not focused on this niche that we are in. It's literally less than a percentage of the commodities in its purview. If you were to see actual Enforcement, itd start with notification to manufacturers of x products in civ hands, back traced to y dealer, heavy fines and potential DOJ scrutiny and the evaporation of grey market over night.

Yeah lasers are expensive, yes more expensive than they need to be. But would you rather have the existence of said lasers, or be like Germany where a weapon mounted light is illegal?

My .02 on constantly seeing people complain about lasers.

*Edited as I was inaccurate.*

 

[_Windrider_]

The law actually specifically prevents manufacturers from selling class 3b and above lasers to ANYONE. There is a memorandum of understanding to allow manufacturers to sell such devices to the Department of Defense and Law Enforcement Agencies. There are no other laws governemning lasers; nothing on civilian ownership, of it being legal or illegal.

The entire grey market for FP lasers is a look the other way situation. The FDA is not focused on this niche that we are in. It's literally less than a percentage of the commodities in its purview. If you were to see actual Enforcement, itd start with notification to manufacturers of x products in civ hands, back traced to y dealer, heavy fines and potential DOJ scrutiny and the evaporation of grey market over night.

Yeah lasers are expensive, yes more expensive than they need to be. But would you rather have the existence of said lasers, or be like Germany where a weapon mounted light is illegal?

My .02 on constantly seeing people complain about lasers.

Why is it that pro-gun people are the only ones that have to compromise but anti-gun people get whatever they want? If you have to justify something with at least you’re already coming from a position of inferiority and giving some thing up. Well, at least I can still have 10 round magazines but I just can’t have 30 round magazines. The prohibition of sale of class iiib lasers by manufacturers is one thing, but there’s nothing that says that once you sell it to a distributor that they can’t sell it furthermore, the possession of a class 3 laser is not illegal and there’s no law against it for anyone to have that hence why these lasers are used in nightclubs in outdoor sporting events, and all kinds of things. The only reason the real problem on the gun is because they’re considered a pointer in the rule, and by the FDA specifically discusses pointers if we stopped calling him pointers and started calling him designators it would be a hell of a lot easier to get around this, at least that is my very very very weak interpretation of what I’ve read on the regulation. but hey, at least we get to own anything, right?

 

[Nik H]

The law actually specifically prevents manufacturers from selling class 3b and above lasers to ANYONE. There is a memorandum of understanding to allow manufacturers to sell such devices to the Department of Defense and Law Enforcement Agencies. There are no other laws governemning lasers; nothing on civilian ownership, of it being legal or illegal.

The entire grey market for FP lasers is a look the other way situation. The FDA is not focused on this niche that we are in. It's literally less than a percentage of the commodities in its purview. If you were to see actual Enforcement, itd start with notification to manufacturers of x products in civ hands, back traced to y dealer, heavy fines and potential DOJ scrutiny and the evaporation of grey market over night.

Yeah lasers are expensive, yes more expensive than they need to be. But would you rather have the existence of said lasers, or be like Germany where a weapon mounted light is illegal?

My .02 on constantly seeing people complain about lasers.

What law are you referring to in your first sentence? Please cite the relevant section within the CFR.

The regulations defining classes of lasers, their hazards and requirements for labeling are dictated by the FDA within Title 21 CFR 1040. To my knowledge, that is the only law and there is nothing in it regarding who can own and who is prohibited from owning. I have had this discussion with Wilcox's counsel.

I would gladly welcome a correction to my facts if such a law is on the books

 

[_Windrider_]

What law are you referring to in your first sentence? Please cite the relevant section within the CFR.

The regulations defining classes of lasers, their hazards and requirements for labeling are dictated by the FDA within Title 21 CFR 1040. To my knowledge, that is the only law and there is nothing in it regarding who can own and who is prohibited from owning. I have had this discussion with Wilcox's counsel.

I would gladly welcome a correction to my facts if such a law is on the books

It’s not a law. It’s a regulation. Big difference.

 

[Nik H]

It’s not a law. It’s a regulation. Big difference.

I should know better but he used the word "law" and I was referencing his language. I did say CFR....Code of Federal REGULATIONS. I do know the difference

 

[_Windrider_]

I should know better but he used the word "law" I did say CFR....Code of Federal REGULATIONS. I do know the difference

I know you do. Some don’t.

 

[gwood]

 

[zinny]

I apologize, I was referring to the CFR, which is a regulation and using the term law very "loosely".

Right; it is not legal or illegal for civilians to own 3b lasers. But manufacturer's (under the CFR) are not allowed sell a 3b laser to civilians. Somehow we still see quite a robust grey market in existance.

 

[corym468]

This has got to be one of the dumbest most ignorant threads on SH. Right up there with Quigley ford's and IOR ball garglers.

Well thank you for your technical insight. I don't know what we would have done without input from the NPCs.

 

[corym468]

The CFR specifically prevents manufacturers from selling class 3b and above lasers pratically everyone except under certain circumstances. For example there is a memorandum of understanding to allow manufacturers to sell such devices to the Department of Defense and Law Enforcement Agencies. There are no other laws/regs governing lasers; nothing on civilian ownership, of it being legal or illegal.

The entire grey market for FP lasers is a look the other way situation. The FDA is not focused on this niche that we are in. It's literally less than a percentage of the commodities in its purview. If you were to see actual Enforcement, itd start with notification to manufacturers of x products in civ hands, back traced to y dealer, heavy fines and potential DOJ scrutiny and the evaporation of grey market over night.

Yeah lasers are expensive, yes more expensive than they need to be. But would you rather have the existence of said lasers, or be like Germany where a weapon mounted light is illegal?

My .02 on constantly seeing people complain about lasers.

*Edited as I was inaccurate.*

1. Rescinded, just saw where you answered Nik H's question on the CFR.
2. I refuse to choice. I don't understand what legitimate mechanism in this country should force me to choice.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Well thank you for your technical insight. I don't know what we would have done without input from the NPCs.

Want some technical Insight? How about from someone who spent most of their Career as a Fed doing contracting both in and outside of DOD.

You have no idea what you are talking about and its hilarious that you think you know what something is worth, what the market will bear, what the manufacturing costs, what the regulatory costs and how the manufacture who's primary customer is the US Gov and allies does business.

Only a retard would think these cost a few hundred to manufacture. The licensing for the tech alone probably costs that. There is not a hardened LRF with integrated ballistic solver on the market that is less than these cost. Add in some other features in a small form factor designed to be ran on a diving board, what in the fuck do you think these will sell for?

Also, the gov does not do R&D contracts except for very large risk procurement. This is not WW2 where they funded everything. Why would they foot the bill and the risk for a low volume unit niche product (compared to something like radios or rifles) when the market already does this for them? This product while cool, does not really increase the lethality of the US Military. Bigger, cheaper, more accurate Bombs, missiles, artillery and drones do. The actual percentage of enemy combatants killed by a long rifle is like nothing. They can just pick the best product. For example, the same exact R&D paid for by the gov would be 10 times what Wilcox would spend to do the same shit on their own. It would also take years longer and probably end up with a shittier product that will be obsolete by the time its fielded due to the inefficencies of gov contacting. Much easier to buys a COTS product where there is little risk to gov and gets to end user in the fastest time possible.

I am sorry you are too poor to afford the shit you want. Maybe work harder or be smarter so you can afford the gucci toys.

If its so overpriced and easy to make it for a few hundred a unit and sell for $2.5K or less like you claim, why don't you start a company and do it.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Because, go be poor somewhere else. That’s why.

 

[Dogtown]

Murdered By Words

 

[corym468]

Want some technical Insight? How about from someone who spent most of their Career as a Fed doing contracting both in and outside of DOD.

You have no idea what you are talking about and its hilarious that you think you know what something is worth, what the market will bear, what the manufacturing costs, what the regulatory costs and how the manufacture who's primary customer is the US Gov and allies does business.

Only a retard would think these cost a few hundred to manufacture. The licensing for the tech alone probably costs that. There is not a hardened LRF with integrated ballistic solver on the market that is less than these cost. Add in some other features in a small form factor designed to be ran on a diving board, what in the fuck do you think these will sell for?

Also, the gov does not do R&D contracts except for very large risk procurement. This is not WW2 where they funded everything. Why would they foot the bill and the risk for a low volume unit niche product (compared to something like radios or rifles) when the market already does this for them? This product while cool, does not really increase the lethality of the US Military. Bigger, cheaper, more accurate Bombs, missiles, artillery and drones do. The actual percentage of enemy combatants killed by a long rifle is like nothing. They can just pick the best product. For example, the same exact R&D paid for by the gov would be 10 times what Wilcox would spend to do the same shit on their own. It would also take years longer and probably end up with a shittier product that will be obsolete by the time its fielded due to the inefficencies of gov contacting. Much easier to buys a COTS product where there is little risk to gov and gets to end user in the fastest time possible.

I am sorry you are too poor to afford the shit you want. Maybe work harder or be smarter so you can afford the gucci toys.

If its so overpriced and easy to make it for a few hundred a unit and sell for $2.5K or less like you claim, why don't you start a company and do it.

Boss you seem to be under the delusion that you're the smartest guy on this forum, probably every room you walk into, I'd dare to assume the smartest guy on the internet at this point. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but you're going to come up drastically short in that dick measuring contest.

I've never meet a badge toting Fed who does contracting, I've meet plenty of civil servants. Which is it here?

No I don't have any idea, which is precisely why I started this thread and begin with the complex question of why. Is it hardened to a spec that would inherently drive up the price? We had that mini conversation and didn't come up with anything specific. Since you're the smartest guy here why don't you inform us of the specs we were to stupid to have already known about?

Is it waterproof to some extreme depth that makes it so expensive?

The compact design does make it very desirable. If this was 20 years ago that alone would demand its price tag. However, its 2023 and we all have smart phones more compact with 10,000x the processing power. The optics are not to much smaller than the optics in the LRF on the market for well under $1k.

It doesn't take a complex market analysis to look across the industry at similar technology to come to the conclusion that this device is drastically over priced.

What do you mean the gov doesn't do R&D contracts? What country do you live in??? They may no longer call them R&D contracts, but every engineer on a gov contract knows when they're on a development contract by another name. The idea that the market funded the R&D of this device is absurd. How exactly does the market pay for R&D on a device that is not sold to the general public. Wilcox developed these units under the promise of a fat gov contract period. You don't get to design and sell to only the gov and call the gov the market.

 

[_Windrider_]

Boss you seem to be under the delusion that you're the smartest guy on this forum, probably every room you walk into, I'd dare to assume the smartest guy on the internet at this point. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but you're going to come up drastically short in that dick measuring contest.

I've never meet a badge toting Fed who does contracting, I've meet plenty of civil servants. Which is it here?

No I don't have any idea, which is precisely why I started this thread and begin with the complex question of why. Is it hardened to a spec that would inherently drive up the price? We had that mini conversation and didn't come up with anything specific. Since you're the smartest guy here why don't you inform us of the specs we were to stupid to have already known about?

Is it waterproof to some extreme depth that makes it so expensive?

The compact design does make it very desirable. If this was 20 years ago that alone would demand its price tag. However, its 2023 and we all have smart phones more compact with 10,000x the processing power. The optics are not to much smaller than the optics in the LRF on the market for well under $1k.

It doesn't take a complex market analysis to look across the industry at similar technology to come to the conclusion that this device is drastically over priced.

What do you mean the gov doesn't do R&D contracts? What country do you live in??? They may no longer call them R&D contracts, but every engineer on a gov contract knows when they're on development contract by another name. The idea that market funded the R&D of this device is absurd. How exactly does the market pay for R&D on a device that is not sold to the general public. Wilcox developed these units under the promise of a fat gov contract period.

At its introduction, the RAPTAR could command its price. Like I said earlier, Wilcox basically had a monopoly because they were the only ones doing it and with a ballistic computer integrated. I don’t think anyone is saying that they should be dirt cheap @DeathBeforeDismount but they certainly are overcharging. But, they now have competition in the market so that should help drive a more competitive price point. My only real
Complaint regarding the RAPTAR is that the class 1 version and the class 3 version are literally and I mean literally 100% the exact same unit. The only difference is the power output controlled by a software/BIOS tweak. So why should the ones that come in full power be more expensive than the ones that don’t? There is no additional manufacturing costs whatsoever. They simply are gouging because they can. If the u it’s we’re different with actual different hardware I’d fully understand (but still don’t agree with a 2000 dollar difference, no way it’s that much). Wilcox gouges because they can. Hopefully that will change. No one is disputing that they should only cost 300 dollars. But they also shouldn’t cost 10k either. Competition breeds better pricing.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Not hard to be the smartest dude in the room when its full of Jerry's Kids.

You don't even know the difference between a PWS and a SOW. There is a MASSIVE difference between the US gov funding R&D and a private company. The fact I need to explain this just shows how ignorant you are about what your talking about.

If the US selects Wilcox to develop a rifle mounting LRF with solver(ect) and it ends up being a piece of shit that no body wants, then Wilcox still gets paid for their R&D and will make money (This shit called Award Fee depending on contract structure, Its like Profit; maybe you have heard about it). If the Wilcox funds it and its a piece of shit, they loose. This is not the 1960's. Gov specified contracts are rare. In fact, the entire contracting community was trained through the 1990's and 2000's to do away with these types of contracts because they are high risk, high failure rate and end up costing the gov way more money in the long run. Do they still exist? Yes but during the early contract planning they have to calculate and prove they are the superior method.

The only time the gov really funds a R&D project is when industry cannot reasonable take on that cost burden. The ROI has to be there and Boeing and Lockheed and BAE and NG would not exist if they decided to fund a bunch of billion dollar R&D projects that went nowhere. This product is clearly within Wilcox's capability to design and develop. So for things like the SCAR when the gov had all these specific requirements and they expected to buy hundreds of thousands if not millions of rifles over its life, it made sense because FN, as big as they are, weren't going to fund the govs dumb ideas to the tunes of tens of millions of dollars and be left with their dicks in their hand. And we saw how that contract fizzled out. FN would have been bankrupted if they funded that program without the sales to support it.

Stick to talking about what you know, like dick measuring contests or which flavor of crayola is the best.

 

[corym468]

Not hard to be the smartest dude in the room when its full of Jerry's Kids.

You don't even know the difference between a PWS and a SOW. There is a MASSIVE difference between the US gov funding R&D and a private company. The fact I need to explain this just shows how ignorant you are about what your talking about.

If the US selects Wilcox to develop a rifle mounting LRF with solver(ect) and it ends up being a piece of shit that no body wants, then Wilcox still gets paid for their R&D and will make money (This shit called Award Fee depending on contract structure, Its like Profit; maybe you have heard about it). If the Wilcox funds it and its a piece of shit, they loose. This is not the 1960's. Gov specified contracts are rare. In fact, the entire contracting community was trained through the 1990's and 2000's to do away with these types of contracts because they are high risk, high failure rate and end up costing the gov way more money in the long run. Do they still exist? Yes but during the early contract planning they have to calculate and prove they are the superior method.

The only time the gov really funds a R&D project is when industry cannot reasonable take on that cost burden. The ROI has to be there and Boeing and Lockheed and BAE and NG would not exist if they decided to fund a bunch of billion dollar R&D projects that went nowhere. This product is clearly within Wilcox's capability to design and develop. So for things like the SCAR when the gov had all these specific requirements and they expected to buy hundreds of thousands if not millions of rifles over its life, it made sense because FN, as big as they are, weren't going to fund the govs dumb ideas to the tunes of tens of millions of dollars and be left with their dicks in their hand. And we saw how that contract fizzled out. FN would have been bankrupted if they funded that program without the sales to support it.

Stick to talking about what you know, like dick measuring contests or which flavor of crayola is the best.

You caught me. I don't know what a PWS, a SOW, a DID, a DPD, or a DRD is, nor do I have the intellectual capacity to understand MIL-STDs, MIL-HBKs, NASA-STDs, or industry specs. How did you know?

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Google lol