Winchester action builds

[adluginb]

Why is it that you don't see many custom builds using Winchester pre or post 64 actions for builds? Is it just because remington is easier to get all trued up? Not as accurate? Cost more to get work done? More stock options for rem700s?, etc.

Just wondering...

Thanks

 

[long range newbie]

I think just more parts available and its just easy to find about anything for a rem 700. lots of options means lots of customers.

 

[Frank Green]

Guys do them. Yes not as popular as Remmy's etc....but they build nice guns. Here is one underway...

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...1-model-70-pre64-target-rebuild-underway.html

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[NXS338]

I have an FN SPR that Im in the process of building now, which as far as I know is same action. It is harder to find the after market parts for them and the stocks are limited if you want it inletted for them. I think it will turn out nice though when its done, the model 70 action definitely has some advantages I believe. We will see...lol.

 

[jcann]

A Winchester build will be just as accurate.

These are a few positives I see in stock Winchester actions you don’t get in Remington actions; although you can pay to add similar items built into it.

Integral recoil lug
Strong claw extractor
Top mounted bolt release
Stronger bolt handle
Three position safety
Flat based action

Possible downside to building on a Winchester action:

Availability of aftermarket parts (Not “possible”….fact)
Not every builder will do it. (Jon Beanland is one I’m aware of)
Additional expense in barrel work (recess cut for claw extractor)

 

[Rhyno]

Because a true winchester (pre 64) action is freaking expensive.

 

[hdbiker1]

This is what I found a few yrs ago:

Gale McMillan on Remington vs Winchester

The only reason that the mod.70 ever got anywhere in competition was
the smoothness of the action. Since it gets half the closing cam from the bolt lug and half
from the receiver and because it has a weak firing spring it is very
smooth and easy to operate making it easier to shoot rapid fire.
For a long period during the 80s I built all the Marine Corp match
rifles. The first four thousand yard rifles I built them (on Rem
actions) set and reset the National Record 17 times the first year.
I had the opportunity to see the difference between the Win. and Rem.
when I built 6 Rems. and 6 solid bottom Wins at the same time. The
barrels came off the buttoning machine one after the other and all 12
guns were built exactly the same. When we put them on the return to
battery cradle at Quantico all the Rems. shot under 1/2 M.O.A. and
mod.70s shot 3/4 M.O.A. The 2nd string team shot the Wins. I know you
remember that the Marines dominated the long range shooting during that
period. The only thing that the Army had a chance in was the service
rifle. If you would look at the winners of the Leach Cup and the
Wimbledon during the 80s it will prove my point. The major things
against the mod.70 is the weak firing pin spring gives ignition
problems. The lock time is so slow you can almost pull the trigger and
then make a sight correction before it goes off. Only the Mauser is more
limber. You will never see a Win. used in bench rest competion. They
just can't get the accuracy out of them. Rem actions or custom actions
of the Rem. type are the only thing used. This may be a bitter pill for
Win fans to swallow but the record speaks for itself. Did you ever stop
to think why all the sniper rifles used by all branchs of the service
are built on Rem 700 actions? It is because they shoot straighter!!!!
When you think of bedding you must understand the series of events that
take place during firing. As the barrel and action recoil the force is
to the rear and upward. This lifts the action up stretching the screws
in the process. After the impulse the action settles back onto the
bedding. On a square action, if it is bedded tight on the sides it has a
tendency to stick and not settle back the same every time. If you clear
the sides to prevent this then you get what is called chucking. That is
the action slides back and forth side ways. The Rem. is round and has
much less vertical surface to drag on and acts like a vee block
allowing it to settle back the same way after every shot.

Gale McMillan

 

[LRJammer]

I have 3 customs on Winchester 70/FN actions. I have owned Remingtons but wouldnt even consider a Remington. The CRF is a better action in every meaningfuly way in my opinion. Only way to improve is to step up to an AI.

 

[nashlaw]

Have a couple custom builds on Winchester actions. They do well.

 

[7mmSTW]

Gale McMillan had a lot of hatred for the M70, pretty easy to find his arguments all over the web. There are just as many well qualified folks who will argue the opposite. For me, I love the Model 70 for all of the reasons stated above. CRF just flat makes sense to me, I love the safety and its no surprise you don't see recalls based on that design. As far as lock time is concerned the modern Mod 70's aren't that much slower, I'm pretty sure my short action with the Tubb firing pin is faster than a stock R700. Any GOOD smith can work on a Mod 70 and turn it into a very nice rig. If you want it go for it...

Bolt can be field stripped easily and without tools too, nice bonus.

 

[Rhyno]

I want one for hunting. Just because Winchester is a storied history in America and hunting.

But pre 64's are not always cheap.

 

[adluginb]

Read good things about the crf action but what about the push feed action?

 

[stealthgoat]

Read good things about the crf action but what about the push feed action?

I am a HUGE fan of Win 70 pre-64 & later CRF, as well as the FN SPR actions.

That said I have owned several Win 70 Heavy Varmint (HV) push feeds, still have two of them, and HV push feeds all have shot very well.

Regards,
Tim

 

[jcann]

When you think of bedding you must understand the series of events that
take place during firing. As the barrel and action recoil the force is
to the rear and upward. This lifts the action up stretching the screws
in the process. After the impulse the action settles back onto the
bedding. On a square action, if it is bedded tight on the sides it has a
tendency to stick and not settle back the same every time. If you clear
the sides to prevent this then you get what is called chucking. That is
the action slides back and forth side ways. The Rem. is round and has
much less vertical surface to drag on and acts like a vee block
allowing it to settle back the same way after every shot.

Someone needs to tell Michelle Gallagher (of Berger bullets) winner of the 2013 Leech Cup and 5 time winner of the Wimbledon Cup that her SQUARE Stolle Panda Action isn't supposed to shoot that well due to tendencies of sticking and not settling back.

Granted, I'm being somewhat facetious here. A Winchester action isn't a Stolle but damn, how did she shoot this well with all the "chucking"?

 

[mark5pt56]

This is my opinion and it hurts feelings-the reason the 700 has so much aftermarket is mainly for one reason-it is sub standard to begin with, people like to fiddle fuck with things and plenty of people have convinced them they have to. And not that a stock mil spec 1911 needed anything, it's the last two above that have made that industry thrive.

 

[Smooth_87]

This is my opinion and it hurts feelings-the reason the 700 has so much aftermarket is mainly for one reason-it is sub standard to begin with, people like to fiddle fuck with things and plenty of people have convinced them they have to. And not that a stock mil spec 1911 needed anything, it's the last two above that have made that industry thrive.

I tend to agree with this, it's like saying AI is terrible as the aftermarket is small for them.

One must ask why a rifle needs an aftermarket in the first place.

On a rem, most things are changed because they're not the highest quality in the first place.

Sort of like done up cars and exotics

 

[Rhyno]

This is my opinion and it hurts feelings-the reason the 700 has so much aftermarket is mainly for one reason-it is sub standard to begin with, people like to fiddle fuck with things and plenty of people have convinced them they have to. And not that a stock mil spec 1911 needed anything, it's the last two above that have made that industry thrive.

Ehhhh, I agree to an extent.

Back in the day the r 700 was fine. Great trigger, good wood stocks, good QC.

Then prices rose, manufacturing cost went up, lawduits from idoits happened and labour got worse and more expensive.

Winchester, and to a lesser extent Savage, didn't have to deal with this because they were dang near out of the game (Savage) or came out with a shit turn product and went out of the game (Winchester, there's a reason no one talks about the post 64 actions before FN started labeling their rifles as Winchester)

Remington adapted and still produced rifles, and those rifles suffered which certainly help with the aftermarket stuff, but for a long time Remington was also about the only option, Winchester stopped making firearms, Savage was dang near bankrupt and only produced a basic model 10/110 and let's face it Rugers are terrible.

I'd say put two period same grade m70 and r700 actions next to each other, or rather whole rifles and they'd shoot the same. And you'd be down to features.

 

[spamassassin]

I'm building a switch barrel rifle on a post-64 action right now. I've got Black Hole Weaponry cutting 24" heavy barrel for me in 7mm RM right now. Throughout the year I'll have them cut more barrels in other chamberings for it. My winny has the slickest action of any rifle I've ever held except for a Krag-Jorgensen. Before I burned out the throat in the previous barrel it was busting clays reliably at 800m.

McMillans words don't strike me as having been based in reality or education. Deforming screws along the axis they're strongest in? Funny. Non-metallic stock materials will flex first. Nothing like the old guard to make with the FUD.

Who needs aftermarket upgrades for a rifle that was built well from the get-go? It's not called the rifleman's rifle for nothing.

 

[Frank Green]

I don't buy the bedding thing and the flat bottom action. Plenty of guys here as well as myself that have Badger M2008 actions. Guess what flat bottom as well. I've bedded two different stocks for one action and GAP did the other one for me. Guess what both guns in three different stocks are 1/3moa guns or better.

The only thing I will agree with is the slower lock time of the M70 vs. the R700 but don't feel it's a real handicap as well as you can get new/lighter firing pins and new springs etc....but that's about it.

My rebuilt '03 Springfield is similar to a M70 also. I modified the firing pin so it's like a NM pin. That brought it down to the weight of a long action R700. I installed a slightly shortened R700 firing pin spring. Works like a million bucks.

Bedding can be done incorrectly on a 700 action or others as well and mess up the accuracy.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[mark5pt56]

You know there's a lot of "aftermarket" in many different area's of craft, manufacturing, etc. It's a shame that any of the American based companies are not willing (not unable) to produce top notch products from the start without people having to spend extra for the extra edge of performance. Heck, I even remember when our house was built and a guy came back to fix plumbing and electrical and he said he had a job because other tradesman didn't do their's.

 

[Travis S]

I've had mine for a decade. Recently had the barrel cut to 18" and threaded. It has a badger 20moa base, Williams bottom metal and a sweet trigger. Next will be getting a bolt knob done. Trying to decide on stock direction, leaning towards a chassis system that uses ai type mags. It's a heavy varmint in 308. I don't understand why a huge aftermarket parts list is a deterrent personally. It has an integral recoil lug, quality mounts, triggers and dbm systems are also available. Sure bolts are harder to find, but can be had. Mine will do just fine for my needs...

 

[Engine 22]

Nothing wrong with Winchester actions. I'll go out on a limb and say that VERY few people on this forum could tell the difference in the "lock time" between a Remington and a Winchester. What about the argument about push feeds? Remington has been push feed since the get-go. Where's the argument there?
Are the CRF actions superior?..... Some claim they are, but I can tell you that my push feed shoots better and is smoother than my CRF.
The reason that some gunsmiths won't work on them can include the hardness of the steel in the Winchester actions. The bolts are really hard and could damage the smith's cutters. Is this a deficiency in the action? I don't think so.

Try one out, I bet you'll be more than satisfied with what you get.