WOA accuracy issues, my experience… (update 9/24/2023)

[ZA206]

About 6 months ago I got my 16” SDM profile 223 Wylde 1:8 barrel that I ordered direct with WOA. I built it using a BCM upper (thermofit) that I trued the receiver face on and bedded with green Loctite. The handguard is a free floated SOLGM M89 and the I’m using a Riflespeed adjustable gas system with an H2 buffer in the stock. I’m using a LaRue MBT-2 trigger in the lower. The rifle has a NightForce NX8 2.5-20 scope on it. The rifle has been dead nuts reliable from day 1 and eats anything I put in it without issue.

The problem is that it’s not accurate, the best 5 shot groups being 1.2-1.3” (match quality factory ammo and some of my best hand loads). It has about 200-250 rounds through it. I have a Bartlein 20” SDM profile 1:7.7 4 groove by CLE that I built with the EXACT components and it shoots sub 1/2” 5 shot groups with multiple factory loads and a bunch of my hand loads.

Ive bore scoped this rifle and I saw two potential issues (see pictures):
1) There are radial machining marks left in the leade/throat area from when the barrel was chambered by WOA.
2) The gas port cuts through an entire groove and gets copper build up which shows as a single blue streak on my cleaning patches. The copper accumulation is also visible with a bore scope even after a heavy cleaning with JB + Kroil and Patchout+ accelerator.

I’ve sent an email to WOA to try to get some help. This rifle was not intended to be a blaster and I expect much better from this barrel. I have a Proof waiting in the wings to replace it if things don’t get resolved soon.

Ive posted the “put out or get out” results from my test of the WOA today, before this test I did the heavy cleaning, so the barrel was pristine. The top row, far right “55 ZMax TAC” was the first set shot with one of my best loads, the first three went into the same hole, the 4th was at 2 o’cloc, the 5 dropped 1.5”. I then shot the 69 FGM, then 73 FGM, then 77 FGM, then 53 VMAX. I then let the rifle cool down for 45 min or so and then shot AAC 77 TMK, then 77 SMK, then 77 OTM, then AAC 55 VMAX, and lastly another set of my 55 Zmax load (bottom right).

Thoughts on what the issues may be?

Thanks,

ZA

 

[Mike_in_FL]

I'll give the same answer as before. I stripped the copper out of my barrel after 100 or so rounds and never had a problem again. Your combination of cleaning doesn't feature anything ammonia based like Sweets or the Barnes CR stuff. If that doesn't do it, see if they'll return it.

 

[ZA206]

I cleaned it again last night with Patchout/Wipeout + Accelerator. I eVen left a saturated patch in the bore over the gas port so there would be a direct soak on this spot. Patchout eats copper.

 

[supercorndogs]

What kind of load development have you done? IE. How did you determine best loads?

 

[ZA206]

I have done some load development (69 RMR, 55 FMJBT), but it seemed futile with this barrel. Everything was 1.5" or worse. That's why I ran this test with factory match ammo. If it won't shoot factory match ammo into decent groups, I don't want it. I'm not going to invest more time & resources in it. I've also shot known "good" hand loads (69 SMK + 24.5 Varget) and a few others through it.... same thing.

 

[simonp]

I have had at least half a dozen WOA barrels and everyone one of them has shot under 0.5" with Hornady 55 grain FMJ handloaded in LC brass, each one has liked a slightly different load though the majority of them liked Shooters World AR Plus or Tactical rifle somewhere in the 25.0 -25.6 grain load.

 

[BCP]

I've had a white oak dud before, said it was part of a batch that had the wrong bore/twist or something.

 

[bigjake83]

About 6 months ago I got my 16” SDM profile 223 Wylde 1:8 barrel that I ordered direct with WOA. I built it using a BCM upper (thermofit) that I trued the receiver face on and bedded with green Loctite. The handguard is a free floated SOLGM M89 and the I’m using a Riflespeed adjustable gas system with an H2 buffer in the stock. I’m using a LaRue MBT-2 trigger in the lower. The rifle has a NightForce NX8 2.5-20 scope on it. The rifle has been dead nuts reliable from day 1 and eats anything I put in it without issue.

The problem is that it’s not accurate, the best 5 shot groups being 1.2-1.3” (match quality factory ammo and some of my best hand loads). It has about 200-250 rounds through it. I have a Bartlein 20” SDM profile 1:7.7 4 groove by CLE that I built with the EXACT components and it shoots sub 1/2” 5 shot groups with multiple factory loads and a bunch of my hand loads.

Ive bore scoped this rifle and I saw two potential issues (see pictures):
1) There are radial machining marks left in the leade/throat area from when the barrel was chambered by WOA.
2) The gas port cuts through an entire groove and gets copper build up which shows as a single blue streak on my cleaning patches. The copper accumulation is also visible with a bore scope even after a heavy cleaning with JB + Kroil and Patchout+ accelerator.

I’ve sent an email to WOA to try to get some help. This rifle was not intended to be a blaster and I expect much better from this barrel. I have a Proof waiting in the wings to replace it if things don’t get resolved soon.

Ive posted the “put out or get out” results from my test of the WOA today, before this test I did the heavy cleaning, so the barrel was pristine. The top row, far right “55 ZMax TAC” was the first set shot with one of my best loads, the first three went into the same hole, the 4th was at 2 o’cloc, the 5 dropped 1.5”. I then shot the 69 FGM, then 73 FGM, then 77 FGM, then 53 VMAX. I then let the rifle cool down for 45 min or so and then shot AAC 77 TMK, then 77 SMK, then 77 OTM, then AAC 55 VMAX, and lastly another set of my 55 Zmax load (bottom right).

Thoughts on what the issues may be?

Thanks,

ZA

Having your gas port drilled in the center of a Land is never ideal, one of the many benefits of having a custom barrel spun up.

The throat of your barrel doesn't look all that bad, I've seen a lot worse that shot quite well. Just keep in mind that there is such a thing as over cleaning, JB should only be used 2-3 times in your barrels entire life span. Basically you can lap/polish your barrel to a point that it's too smooth increasing friction and making copper fouling 10 times worse.

 

[ZA206]

Having your gas port drilled in the center of a Land is never ideal, one of the many benefits of having a custom barrel spun up.

The throat of your barrel doesn't look all that bad, I've seen a lot worse that shot quite well. Just keep in mind that there is such a thing as over cleaning, JB should only be used 2-3 times in your barrels entire life span. Basically you can lap/polish your barrel to a point that it's too smooth increasing friction and making copper fouling 10 times worse.

Yea, I wouldn't normally break out the JB's unless I saw extensive carbon fouling I couldn't get out. That certainly doesn't happen in less than 200 rounds, but this barrel was so whacked out, I needed to see what was going on and wanted to try to reset it. My Bartlein has about 1500 rounds and I only hit it with the JB's at about the 1100 round mark. I also only apply JB's with VFG felt pellets, never with a brush.

 

[simonp]

I've had a white oak dud before, said it was part of a batch that had the wrong bore/twist or something.

How did WOA handle the issue for you?

Everyone has a dud occasionally, it happens. How a company responds is important.

 

[ZA206]

WOA reached out & wants me to send them the upper for testing and evaluation.
I'll keep you guys posted on the eventual outcome.

 

[supercorndogs]

When I looked at the picture I thought that was a groove it was in. Directly across a land like that is not good. I bet they replace it. If it were me, I would send them the picture explain it and see if they would just send a new barrel.

 

[BCP]

How did WOA handle the issue for you?

Everyone has a dud occasionally, it happens. How a company responds is important.

They replaced it eventually.

 

[MarshallDodge]

I have done some load development (69 RMR, 55 FMJBT), but it seemed futile with this barrel. Everything was 1.5" or worse. That's why I ran this test with factory match ammo. If it won't shoot factory match ammo into decent groups, I don't want it. I'm not going to invest more time & resources in it. I've also shot known "good" hand loads (69 SMK + 24.5 Varget) and a few others through it.... same thing.

I've had iffy results with the 69 RMR in several rifles, and I have tried REALLY hard to make them shoot. One group will be .75" and the next will be 1.5", in a rifle that will shoot most match grade bullets into 0.5" or less pretty consistently.

I've played with different powders and charges, primers, brass, and have found that neck tension seems to be a key factor. I'm going to sort some by ogive (bto) and try that next.

 

[ZA206]

I've had iffy results with the 69 RMR in several rifles, and I have tried REALLY hard to make them shoot. One group will be .75" and the next will be 1.5", in a rifle that will shoot most match grade bullets into 0.5" or less pretty consistently.

I've played with different powders and charges, primers, brass, and have found that neck tension seems to be a key factor. I'm going to sort some by ogive (bto) and try that next.

I've found the same thing with the 69 RMR and the 75 RMR. None of my guns liked them very much.

 

[MontanaMan]

I've had good results in several guns with the RMR 69's, but not in any of my WOA barrels & I've not shot extended groups either. With 25.3 gr VV-N540.

But they've done consistently under an inch in every case, just firing a 5 shot string for group whenever I have those guns at the range over several trips.

Maybe a longer string of rounds is needed to shake them out more.

MM

 

[ZA206]

UPDATE!

They tested/inspected my upper… here is their response. I give them kudos for standing behind their products!

“Good afternoon ZA206. Your upper has been inspected and borescoped. John saw normal, expected wear in the barrel, nothing unusual. The build seemed sound, they did mention to be careful with the adjustable gas block and other accessories mounted on the rail to make sure that there is no contact between the barrel or gas block and the accessories attached to the rail. You want as much as clearance as possible.

He did notice one thing however, which goes against our standard operating procedure. The gas port was sitting right smack dab on top of a land. While there is some debate on whether this affects accuracy, it is our practice to center it as best we can in a groove. The gas port is wider than the groove so the sides will overlap into the lands, but we still put it in a groove. It was obvious that someone didn’t use a correctly timed extension on this barrel, resulting in the misplaced port. Due to this we will send a warranty replacement for your barrel if you wish.”

Im taking them up on the new barrel.

-ZA

 

[Jhayesvw]

Any update on this? I know its only been 10 days but you never know. Many people get their problem fixed and never post about it again.

 

[ZA206]

I pulled the old barrel and sent it back to WOA. I got a shipping notice yesterday, so I think the replacement should maybe show up this week.

I had already purchased a 16” Proof CF barrel to replace the WOA, so it is now installed in the upper and is ready for my next range trip. I’ll inspect the new WOA barrel when it gets in and hang onto it for my next project. I’ve had some nice results with a Proof CF barrel in my 6.5CM, so I am trying them again in the 223.

 

[ZA206]

So I got in the warranty replacement barrel from WOA. The good news is that the chamber and throat machining look better than my other one and that the gas port is mostly in a groove. The bad news is that it looks like the gas port has a pretty big burr on the muzzle side already. Pretty bad looking gas port right out of the packaging. This is my last WOA barrel. Pictures below…

 

[ZA206]

For comparison, here are pictures of a new Proof Carbon Fiber 223 barrel I bought to replace the WOA. Super clean, super crisp machining and finishing. The Proof has been installed in the rifle and this WOA barrel will be sold off.

 

[bigjake83]

So I got in the warranty replacement barrel from WOA. The good news is that the chamber and throat machining look better than my other one and that the gas port is mostly in a groove. The bad news is that it looks like the gas port has a pretty big burr on the muzzle side already. Pretty bad looking gas port right out of the packaging. This is my last WOA barrel. Pictures below…

View attachment 8229247
View attachment 8229246
View attachment 8229244
View attachment 8229243

Didn't they write back to you stating that it goes against their practice drilling the Gasport on a land?

 

[BCP]

That's the difference between a 250$ barrel and a 500$ barrel. The QC.

Of course expensive barrel makers can goof and cheap barrels can come together perfect but your odds are always better with a more expensive barrel.

None of this is to say your white oak won't shoot well either. I plan on buying one for myself once they have their sale.

 

[ZA206]

Didn't they write back to you stating that it goes against their practice drilling the Gasport on a land?

Yep…

 

[ZA206]

That's the difference between a 250$ barrel and a 500$ barrel. The QC.

Of course expensive barrel makers can goof and cheap barrels can come together perfect but your odds are always better with a more expensive barrel.

None of this is to say your white oak won't shoot well either. I plan on buying one for myself once they have their sale.

Unfortunately, their SDM profile barrels (like this one) are closer to $400, not $250.

I guess spotty QC is spotty QC regardless of the price. For that price, you can get Proof stainless or Rainier Ultramatch or possibly a CLE Douglas (not sure about their cost)… why bother with a WOA?

 

[B Man]

Unfortunately, their SDM profile barrels (like this one) are closer to $400, not $250.

I guess spotty QC is spotty QC regardless of the price. For that price, you can get Proof stainless or Rainier Ultramatch or possibly a CLE Douglas (not sure about their cost)… why bother with a WOA?

Never owned a WOA just because I always chose a different barrel, they always came highly recommended for the cost. Curious if QC has fallen off lately? But I do have all three of the barrels you mentioned and all are very accurate in 223 Wylde chambering. The Douglas by CLE was the best bargain accuracy barrel I have when he ran his 299 sale on them.

I’ll add my Proof 20” SS barrel is my most accurate having many 1/2 moa groups at 500 yards with just a dropped charge of TAC (no metering) under 77 SMK’s and it has the gas port cut into the grove exactly like that WOA barrel you just got. It was much cleaner like the proof you have now, but it’s still about a 1/3 into the groove and shoots lights out.

 

[bigjake83]

Unfortunately, their SDM profile barrels (like this one) are closer to $400, not $250.

I guess spotty QC is spotty QC regardless of the price. For that price, you can get Proof stainless or Rainier Ultramatch or possibly a CLE Douglas (not sure about their cost)… why bother with a WOA?

A Douglas SDM contour with fluting will about around $550 without the flutes you're looking at closer to $400, if you're Mil or LEO they knock a little off the top.

To me it's honestly not worth the time and frustration taking a chance on off the shelf barrels, I'll gladly pay the extra $150 to get exactly what I want.

 

[oldrifleman]

I picked up one of the Bartlain National Match uppers a while back and I very happy with the results! I am sorry with your experience!

 

[bfoosh006]

Been 7-8yrs since I bought WOA and after seeing this thread I decided to FAFO and pick one up today. SPR 18” fluted rifle gas. Borescope showed a beautiful barrel. Gas port mostly between lands.

View attachment 8230416
Flutes makes it look fast AF BOI!
View attachment 8230417
Phone pic of the Teslong screen, but the port looks pretty clean.
View attachment 8230418
View attachment 8230419
Gonna put it against my lottery winning Faxon and BA barrels here soon. 77SMK Razor and MK262 clone hand loads.

Sorry if I missed it... that gas port "looks" kinda big. Have you measured it ?

 

[BCP]

Sorry if I missed it... that gas port "looks" kinda big. Have you measured it ?

18" rifle gas ports are pretty big I think .112 for a 223.

 

[bfoosh006]

Yeah, it's .108". WOA says that's how they make them. MK12 ports are .104" so I put a sliver of the gas port over the hole.

Thank You.

 

[ZA206]

So took this rifle with its new Proof 223 Wylde Carbon fiber barrel out today to get it sighted in and do some break in & cleaning.

After getting it sighted in at 50 yards (red dot and NightForce) I moved back to 100 yards and shot some remainders of a load development batch I had made up for my Bartlein.

Very happy with the results so far. 1/2 MOA right out of the gate in the first 15 shots.

 

[Ernest 5.56]

So took this rifle with its new Proof 223 Wylde Carbon fiber barrel out today to get it sighted in and do some break in & cleaning.

View attachment 8234636



After getting it sighted in at 50 yards (red dot and NightForce) I moved back to 100 yards and shot some remainders of a load development batch I had made up for my Bartlein.

Very happy with the results so far. 1/2 MOA right out of the gate in the first 15 shots.

View attachment 8234640

How do you like that handguard?

 

[ZA206]

It’s the SOLGW M89… I like it a lot, but it can get tight under the handguard directly under the top rail. I had to remove some material from this are to get good clearance for the RifleSpeed gas block.

 

[ZA206]

Yea… that’s a Riflespeed adjustable gas block. Really good tool less adjustable gas block… you can adjust it with your bare fingers after doing mag dumps. Freaking awesome.

Riflespeed

 

[FredHammer]

Yea… that’s a Riflespeed adjustable gas block. Really good tool less adjustable gas block… you can adjust it with your bare fingers after doing mag dumps. Freaking awesome.

Riflespeed

I just lost room in my pants!

 

[ZA206]

I haven’t bore scoped the Proof since the break in this past weekend. I can tell you that the bore was super slick (just as slick/smooth as the Bartlein that has 1500 rounds on it) and had almost no copper fouling. I wasn’t planning on shooting the replacement WOA any time soon, I may actually sell it. I typically adjust it to about 3:30

 

[FredHammer]

I haven’t bore scoped the Proof since the break in this past weekend. I can tell you that the bore was super slick (just as slick/smooth as the Bartlein that has 1500 rounds on it) and had almost no copper fouling. I wasn’t planning on shooting the replacement WOA any time soon, I may actually sell it. I typically adjust it to about 3:30

Ok, I’ve been laser focused on the ejection pattern clocking. 3:30 ejection is giving me less precision than 2:45-3:00. Bolts seem to be moving too slow. My new WOA SPR maiden shots at 3:30 were not good, but 2:50 or so had them touching. Same with my AR10/M5 708 & 308.

I should mention the 3:00 is settled in pattern. Clean gun starting 2:45 or so.

 

[ZA206]

Oh man… not good.

 

[ZA206]

To me, your unfired picture shows a burr on the muzzle end of the barrel. The 25 round picture shows a lot of copper build up and a ton of wear at the gas port… the third picture is nuts.

For reference, here is my CLE Bartlein‘s gas port new and after 1000 rounds.

 

[stanley_white]

Fingers crossed my WOA SPR that I bought during their "Talk Like a Pirate Day Sale" doesn't suffer the same fate.

It will be awhile until I can find out.

-Stan

 

[Reload10]

WOA SPR Unfired:
View attachment 8236191
After 25rnds:
View attachment 8236192
Cleaned and then after another 50rnds:
View attachment 8236193
First rounds were touching and then all hell broke loose. Flyers galore. WTF WOA?

That will only get worse. I’ve had the same experience. The barrel is basically junk unless you can lap the copper out

 

[Molon]

I’ve been laser focused on the ejection pattern clocking. 3:30 ejection is giving me less precision than 2:45-3:00. Bolts seem to be moving too slow. My new WOA SPR maiden shots at 3:30 were not good, but 2:50 or so had them touching.

The bolt carrier doesn't even begin to move until after the bullet has long exited the barrel.
...

 

[smoothy8500]

How come the port position in the unfired picture looks like it’s in the groove but the fired ones look like it’s in the land? Is it from a different angle?

 

[msgriff]

How come the port position in the unfired picture looks like it’s in the groove but the fired ones look like it’s in the land? Is it from a different angle?

I suck at identifying bore scope images posted on forums. The port diameter in post #46 doesn't even look like the same size to me between the unfired and the 25/50 round pics using a land/groove transition as reference.

 

[Molon]

Ok, I’ve been laser focused on the ejection pattern clocking. 3:30 ejection is giving me less precision than 2:45-3:00. Bolts seem to be moving too slow. My new WOA SPR maiden shots at 3:30 were not good, but 2:50 or so had them touching.

Listen, MORON. The double bump of a slow bolt prints high and low. You are probably gonna say there is no such thing as "follow through" or "recoil impulse" differences, or no difference between a bolt gun vs gas gun too, right. Now fuck off.

Again, the bullet has long exited the barrel before the bolt carrier ever even begins to move.

If you actually had marksmanship skills, knew how to properly manage recoil vectors with an AR-15 and fired statistically significant shot samples, you’d know how utterly retarded your idea that the direction of the ejected cases determines the accuracy of a load is and if you actually think that you’re remotely qualified to discuss precision shooting with an AR-15 with me, then post a link to a pre-existing post with a pic of a 10-shot group that you fired from an AR-15 that’s smaller than my group in the pic below.

My 10-shot group pictured was fired prone, off a bipod with my Lothar Walther barreled AR-15 using 77 grain Sierra MatchKings. The 10-shot group has an extreme spread of 0.54 MOA.

 

[stanley_white]

Borescope hypochondria is a disease best cured by tiny shot groups.

-Stan

 

[ZA206]

@FredHammer
How many shots did you get on it before it started shooting well?
I had like 250 or more and there were no signs of it getting better.

ZA

 

[djarecke]

Bwahaha! We gonna have some fun me & you!
My BA, Faxon, knocking on your door today! Already beat your .539 MOA just fucking around with the WOA. This is with the shittiest ammo I got.
11rnds:
View attachment 8236908
Maiden voyage with this pretty girl: 15rnds
View attachment 8236909
And holy fuck! The WOA knocked some shit loose and started talking pretty groups! 10rnds:
View attachment 8236910
Now, I know I can beat 206 ES with my hand loads, so UPS delivered today:
View attachment 8236911

Like I said. We gonna have some fun! I mean, if you will engage with some retard like me with no marksmanship skills. I ALREADY BEAT YOUR BEST GROUP JUST TODAY! HILARIOUS! WITH THE SHITTIEST AMMO I HAD! Oh, I just can't stop! I'm dead!

You clearly don’t have a clue who you’re addressing. Molon has more statistically-significant testing in his waste paper basket than most of us have had in our entire career.

 

[Molon]

Bwahaha! We gonna have some fun me & you!
My BA, Faxon, knocking on your door today! Already beat your .539 MOA just fucking around with the WOA. This is with the shittiest ammo I got.
11rnds:
View attachment 8236908
Maiden voyage with this pretty girl: 15rnds
View attachment 8236909
And holy fuck! The WOA knocked some shit loose and started talking pretty groups! 10rnds:
View attachment 8236910
Now, I know I can beat 206 ES with my hand loads, so UPS delivered today:
View attachment 8236911

Like I said. We gonna have some fun! I mean, if you will engage with some retard like me with no marksmanship skills. I ALREADY BEAT YOUR BEST GROUP JUST TODAY! HILARIOUS! WITH THE SHITTIEST AMMO I HAD! Oh, I just can't stop! I'm dead!

Apparently your reading comprehension is just as bad as your understanding of how an ar-15 functions. I said post a link to a pre-existing post.