Would you do this in a firearms class?

[Slash0311]

I recently attended a "professional" law enforcement advanced pistol instructor course. The instructor had us clear and use dummy rounds and barrel devices. Once we checked and double checked each other's guns and mags, we dry fired at each other. Including malfunction drills going head to head and pulling the trigger pointed at each other. I completed everything required but I flatly said this was wrong and begging for disaster. His theory was that you don't want the first time you point your firearm at someone shouldn't be under stress of a real situation.

Anyone have any thoughts?

 

[diverdon]

I'm not LE, but I do have thoughts. I find the exercise described as distasteful as you do. Yet I also think that the instructor is correct that those might be good neural pathways to have opened already if you ever need them. I just think some kind of replica firearm should be used, not a temporarily modified duty weapon.

 

[FN-Whitney]

Got to be a better way with all of the modern technology we have than to relay on someone not making a mistake.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

Meh, I really can't be up in arms about that, when I was in the military we did stuff like that often during training, sometimes even shot blanks at each other with our temporarily modified rifles. To me, it sounds like he took fair and reasonable safety precautions to mitigate issues and I think he did have a point in his statement. Technology is only going to carry you so far and sometimes nothing beats pointing a gun at another human being to get over the fact that you're pointing a gun at another human being. To me, it's all the better that it's the one you're going to be carrying and not a rubber duckie.

That's my $.02.

 

[308pirate]

Meh, I really can't be up in arms about that, when I was in the military we did stuff like that often during training, sometimes even shot blanks at each other with our temporarily modified rifles. To me, it sounds like he took fair and reasonable safety precautions to mitigate issues and I think he did have a point in his statement. Technology is only going to carry you so far and sometimes nothing beats pointing a gun at another human being to get over the fact that you're pointing a gun at another human being. To me, it's all the better that it's the one you're going to be carrying and not a rubber duckie.

That's my $.02.

+1 in all respects

 

[chevy_man]

I would have thought they'd use sim rounds. You do need to get the whole pulling the trigger on a human thing out of the way to ensure you don't have a pause if you ever actually need to.

Simunition Non-Lethal Training Ammunition Training for the real world Conversion Kits Protective Equipment Spare Parts Fx Marking Cartridges Securiblank Cartridges

www.simunition.com

 

[uffduh]

Have students swap pistols for the drill so you're being 'shot' with your own weapon...bet you'd really make sure it was cleared and safe. Same way they used to make riggers jump with parachutes they packed for others.

 

[TACC]

I would have thought they'd use sim rounds. You do need to get the whole pulling the trigger on a human thing out of the way to ensure you don't have a pause if you ever actually need to.

Simunition Non-Lethal Training Ammunition Training for the real world Conversion Kits Protective Equipment Spare Parts Fx Marking Cartridges Securiblank Cartridges

www.simunition.com

UTM rounds are better than SIMMS also, they leave serious real life Mark's. Guns actually cycle

Also face and crotch protection is required.

Definitely a step up from force on force drills with airsoft guns.

 

[WATERWALKER]

When I was in the military we used to unload, show clear & do the buddy check thing another time or 2. We’d use BFAs often as one more safety measure. Nobody liked using MILES gear as it was a PITA & it didn’t always work well.

Nowadays things have changed. We’ve gained a little knowledge as to how we can prevent accidents, especially friendly fire accidents. In my opinion, these changes are for the better as you only get one chance at safety.

We have Hot, Warm & Safe Zones. They’re exactly what they sound like. Before any training begins we put our duty weapons in a secure area. If anyone enters the “secure” area they’re inspected all over again as if it was their first time. We do a gear check & safety inspection of each involved participant. This involves checking belts, pockets & anything else on your person. If there are any prohibited items or gear the person will then stow the item & return to the line for another inspection. Believe me when I say that this level of redundancy is absolutely critical to ensure a sterile environment. The know-it-all types are the worst offenders.

We use either plastic red guns or red SIMS guns. All of our OP/FOR members wear something other than official uniforms, such as cammies, street clothes, etc. The theory is that if someone is pointing a weapon at someone else in uniform it becomes “normal.” I want the idea of pointing a weapon at one of your own to be a strict no-no. *I absolutely will not have anyone point a weapon at one of our own.

SIMS rounds or FX marking cartridges are great for training. There is more often than not a willingness to perform w/ the added threat of being shot. Especially when your coworkers / buddies are going to talk shit afterwards. W/ marking cartridges & Airsoft gear the appropriate safety gear will be worn.

 

[scootermcfly]

I am LE and have been for over eleven years now. Marines before that. Don't really have an issue with it. People go way overboard on the safety issue. When you're in battle team members get flagged. When you're clearing rooms people get flagged. No matter how careful you are people get flagged in real life with loaded weapons. That's just the nature of real life. Funny how so many trainers freak out if someone gets flagged with a blue training gun during training. Good shooting discipline, safety training, and muscle memory skills prevent ADs, not training to never, ever point a gun at someone. I've pointed a loaded weapon at a suspect so many times I can't count. Never was in fear of accidentally shooting them. Never bothered me either.

I can see his point, and it sounds like he took extreme precautions that an AD was not possible. Seems like cops are getting younger and younger. Less veterans are staying in for the long haul and passing on skills and lesson learned from long years of experience. Also, the newer generations of recruits just aren't prepared for the trials of life like former generations. They are too sheltered, and from what I've seen, don't take life seriously enough to be prepared for the tough decisions that need to be made on a daily basis as an LEO. Maybe this guy has seen some success in breaking some of the crust around the edges of the newer generation using this exercise. If so, then it's a good exercise even if it causes some people to go into cardiac arrest over the horror of pointing a cleared, confirmed clear, BarrelBlok'ed weapon at someone. Hell, we used BFA on service weapons during training all the time in the Marines and nobody freaked out over it.

And I've worked with people that freaked out during an armed encounter and were scared to draw their gun on somebody. I've also worked with a number of people who like LE except for 'the whole gun thing.' Yeah, you're in the wrong business buddy. Anybody that's been in the military or LE for any length of time has had to work alongside people that you were certain you didn't want o be around in a fire fight or have to rely on to save your life.

Do I think this should be a common event in training? No. Do I think that it might help prevent a mental block of pointing a firearm at someone? Yes. Or at having to shoot at something, or someone, other than a paper target? Yes. Is this exercise any less safe then using simunition rounds? No. Do I think it's a big deal? No

 

[WATERWALKER]

***Don’t forget that you always have to consider the lowest common denominator as well.***

 

[Dthomas3523]

I am LE and have been for over eleven years now. Marines before that. Don't really have an issue with it. People go way overboard on the safety issue. When you're in battle team members get flagged. When you're clearing rooms people get flagged. No matter how careful you are people get flagged in real life with loaded weapons. That's just the nature of real life. Funny how so many trainers freak out if someone gets flagged with a blue training gun during training. Good shooting discipline, safety training, and muscle memory skills prevent ADs, not training to never, ever point a gun at someone. I've pointed a loaded weapon at a suspect so many times I can't count. Never was in fear of accidentally shooting them. Never bothered me either.

I can see his point, and it sounds like he took extreme precautions that an AD was not possible. Seems like cops are getting younger and younger. Less veterans are staying in for the long haul and passing on skills and lesson learned from long years of experience. Also, the newer generations of recruits just aren't prepared for the trials of life like former generations. They are too sheltered, and from what I've seen, don't take life seriously enough to be prepared for the tough decisions that need to be made on a daily basis as an LEO. Maybe this guy has seen some success in breaking some of the crust around the edges of the newer generation using this exercise. If so, then it's a good exercise even if it causes some people to go into cardiac arrest over the horror of pointing a cleared, confirmed clear, BarrelBlok'ed weapon at someone. Hell, we used BFA on service weapons during training all the time in the Marines and nobody freaked out over it.

And I've worked with people that freaked out during an armed encounter and were scared to draw their gun on somebody. I've also worked with a number of people who like LE except for 'the whole gun thing.' Yeah, you're in the wrong business buddy. Anybody that's been in the military or LE for any length of time has had to work alongside people that you were certain you didn't want o be around in a fire fight or have to rely on to save your life.

Do I think this should be a common event in training? No. Do I think that it might help prevent a mental block of pointing a firearm at someone? Yes. Or at having to shoot at something, or someone, other than a paper target? Yes. Is this exercise any less safe then using simunition rounds? No. Do I think it's a big deal? No

Agree mostly.

The reason instructors freak out when you flag someone in training is because you train to be as perfect as possible.

If you train perfectly, and people still get occasionally flagged in real life, then consider how often people would get flagged if we didn’t train perfectly?

Flag someone in training on a high level LE or military training/selection course, you’re likely out. There’s a reason for it.

We are only as good as our training. Train for perfection. Otherwise, why train?

You are completely wrong in the assumption that trigger discipline only is what keeps people safe. It’s a combination of muzzle awareness and trigger discipline.

You can have all the trigger discipline in the world, but if your muzzle is pointed at someone, and you have a mechanical failure, it won’t matter.

Pointing a weapon at a suspect or threat is entirely a differ subject and has no correlation with safety in training.

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

I'm reminded of the "first rule of firearms"

OP, you should have walked out. I know I wouldn't participate w that bullshit.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Generally speaking, if an instructor wants to do that, functional training weapons (red guns with solid barrels) are a better option. Or sim weapons, airsoft, whatever.

While I get that it’s not a good idea for someone’s first real encounter to be the first time they need to do something like point a weapon at someone, this can be trained without using a real duty weapon. If someone can’t be trained with training weapons or sim weapons, they likely won’t make it in a LE combat situation anyway.

As long as the room was totally cold (no live ammunition in the room or on duty belts), I’d say it’s “safe” to do, but I wouldn’t personally train this way.

 

[Slo cat]

I was in a pistol class where we all went through a live fire shoot house, where you had non-threat and threat human life size photo targets. I was amazed to see that we had a woman in the class who was upset afterwords at having to shoot at a pic of a person. So there is a point in structuring training to teach you to overcome some common scruples.

 

[scootermcfly]

You are completely wrong in the assumption that trigger discipline only is what keeps people safe. It’s a combination of muzzle awareness and trigger discipline.

I agree that muzzle awareness is vitally important and you make a good point on why training officers might freak out when someone gets flagged with a blue gun in training. Yes, we train for perfection, even though we will never achieve it (especially with some of the training officers I have had to deal with over the years who feel that no but them can do anything right!). That being said, I always "train like you fight." That means that there are times when someone may get flagged in spite of your best efforts not to. Overreacting in training to what you can expect to happen in the real world is counterproductive. Just as performing scenarios in training that will never happen in the real world are counterproductive too.

Actually, in my post I say that "Good shooting discipline, safety training, and muscle memory skills prevent ADs," not "trigger discipline only." I would consider the four safety rules to fall within what I said which would include "Never point a weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot." That being said, as another member mentioned, some people can shoot at paper all day long and be very good at it but when the target turns to a real person they freeze up or are otherwise unable to engage a human target. That mental block probably is not the same for someone who is using a water pistol, nerf gun, their thumb and forefinger, or blue gun. If using the weapon you will be using in a combat situation helps them to overcome that mental block then it may not be a bad exercise. That being said, if doing it really upsets someone then there are sure to be a ton of other trainers who don't use this method that would better suit them. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[Pbgt]

My policy as an instructor has been, if the gun is functional, even unloaded, don't point it at anyone. I have often wondered..who has ammo in their pocket?(I didnt frisk the student, how do I know for certain). How do you teach a person its "ok" to break the safety rules, oh, now...... its not "ok" to break those rules?? How tough is it to swap to an inert training barrel, for safety sake...jmo...

 

[wade2big]

Seems completely unnecessary to me.