Night Vision WP for dual band?..

[PlinkIt]

I have a question for the pvs14 / dual band experts out there

Ok I certainly started my night vision collection on a budget in the beginning (have really screwed the budget up since then though).
So I purchased some opportunistic pvs14s that came up locally on different occasions. Much lower specs than what I see posted about around here ... Like 1700 FOM. I did purchase all gen 3, but never a... "Nice" set. The specifics of Halo and SNR have been lost on me for my early experiments

Now I have moved much more to using the "dual band" set up and have even stuck a LIF filter on the back of the 14 because it makes the colors a little less extreme of a difference.
This makes my 14 even more dim though.

So finally to my question...
If you were looking to buy your first "nice" 14 with the sole purpose of pairing with a thermal for "dual band" would white phosphor be the way to go?

Certain tube manufacturers or specs I should be looking for maybe?...

 

[SkyScrapin]

The WP fuses better with the white and black inked screens. You can dial in the gain on both units to be nearly a wash. It’s a little fickle because the conditions may change through the night, but the concept stays the same.

 

[wigwamitus]

I'm sure the next 99 replies will say "Willie Pete" !!! So, I'll kick it off and say "Golf Papa" ...

First of all, I'd rather have 10 x GP 14s with used tubes ... then 3 or 4 "nice" 14s with WP tubes ... they all get the job done.

Further more, I like having the GP up there with the thermal, makes it easier to tell whats what!

(meaning, what's "dark" on a 14 is different from what's "'dark" on a thermal ... and that's regardless of whether you're black hot or white hot. Its different regardless)

 

[Frog05]

I'm in the L3 filmless WP camp. It seems easier on my eyes when running dual band.

 

[PlinkIt]

I'm with you @wigwamitus, the green has been working just fine. I'm just considering trying out a little higher spec unit to see if it's worth the cost or not and wanted to give consideration if the white seemed to be a little less stressful on the peepers. It might be my imagination but it has seemed a little less stressful on the eyes since I started putting the LIF in the back of the ones I have.

@Frog05 anything particular about the L3 that goes well? Or you just saying that's what you have had a good experience with?

 

[TheHorta]

I have semi-successfully run “dual band” in the past when I dwelt amongst pleebs and garden variety NV peasants. I was using an Omni VII PVS-14 and an MTM. If I ran a green filter on the MTM and used Black-Hot, after some hours of use my brain would be more forgiving and, while not actually “merging” the images like true fusion does, I could snap between prioritizing images based upon the need of the moment.

I was actually pretty impressed by how well my melon eventually adapted. I tried swapping eyeballs, color matching, intensity matching, etc. the biggest problem, as far as I could tell, was as a result of the different image aspects — one circular, one rectangular. I tried “masking” the PVS circle into a similar rectangle and it definitely worked better, but my hackjob just didn’t go far enough, even though it showed promise.

It was shortly thereafter that I got my first COTI followed immediately by my first PSQ-20. So I abandoned dual band research out of lack of necessity.

This was back in 2014-2015.

 

[wigwamitus]

... It might be my imagination but it has seemed a little less stressful on the eyes ...

That's funny ... nv was actually done in green on purpose !!!

... Even at night, the photons that hit the lens at the front of night vision goggles are carrying light of all colors. But when they are converted to electrons, there's no way to preserve that information. Effectively, the incoming, colored light is turned into black and white. Why, then, don't night vision goggles look black and white? The phosphors on their screens are deliberately chosen to make green pictures because our eyes are more sensitive to green light. It's also easier to look at green screens for long periods than to look at black and white ones (that's why early computer screens tended to be green). Hence, night vision goggles have their characteristic, eerie green glow. ...

 

[Frog05]

@PlinkIt The L3 wp just suited my eyes, different strokes for different folks.
I ran a snb filter on the 14 which toned it down a bit and turns the image purple. I also ran a snb on the back of the thermal which seemed to help match the image.

 

[WhereNow&How]

So my experience is do not even try to match up the NV & Thermal Palettes hoping to get some kind of pseudo Fusion. It is way too taxing on your Eyes and Brain IMHO.

I treat them as like 2 TV Screens in front of me. Sometimes when I get tired I purposely spread them apart so my eyes and brain is more at peace. So I run them by looking over into my NV to see the NV scenery and then as I move along flip my eyes over to see the Thermal Scenery. Back and forth looking at whatever view I want to see. This works for me way better that trying to confuse my eyes and brain.

There might be some people out there that can merge the 2 images well such that it works great for them, but it ain't me.

 

[PlinkIt]

That's funny ... nv was actually done in green on purpose !!!

Maybe the LIF just making it dimmer is where I'm getting less stress then?...

 

[wigwamitus]

... So my experience is do not even try to match up the NV & Thermal Palettes hoping to get some kind of pseudo Fusion. It is way too taxing on your Eyes and Brain IMHO ...

Well, I'll be an N of 1 ... and say it doesn't even make SENSE to match up the pallets. If you are on white hot ... which a lot of people like ... then the thermal sees a rock on the ground as white (at least some of the year) ... and NV sees a rock on the ground as dark. In that case, "white and black" mean the same.
Which is one of several reasons I run on black hot. Though the main one is, "the terrain looks more normal".
Back to the rock. In the winter ... on black hot, the rock will be white because it is cold. NV still sees it as dark. So while your worried about getting the images lined up and the pallets lined up ... you also gotta worry about getting the "meanings" lined up !!

A number of people, self included, describe the ability of the brain to switch back and forth "at will" between the two devices ... and I also say "use your eyelids as on/off switches if needed." That can FORCE one or the other image to be front and center!

97% of the time, maybe 99% of the time, I have no problem telling which image is thermal and which is NV ... but having the NV be GREEN, is another clue and it helps.

And I do look at both images at the same time ... at least about half the time. Dominant eye often wins ... for several years I ran thermal on dominant (right) and 14 on left. But with the COTI I switched 'cause I wanted to aim with dominant eye ... and even now without COTI I still run the 14 on right because I want to aim with dominant. But if I "float" the two devices and see both, as I said above 97-99 % of the time, I can tell which is which. If the green tube improves that chance by 1% or 2% or 5% ... that's not a bad thing in my book.

==
I tried to buy some plain Jane green tube devices from a usual supplier last winter ... after a while he finally told me "there are none". So I realized, all the Willie Pete buyers had blown out the Golf Papa market !!!
I see a GP roll by every now and then, but they are pretty danged rare ... so at least right now ... one plus for the WP is resale, since that seems to be where the demand is. But I'll still take a box of GPs over a couple of WP. They can see the laser and vis light those are the most important things they do for me. Most of my seeing is done with thermal.

 

[Frog05]

Well I guess I'm in the minority as far as trying to match!
As I stated in other threads, myself, like a lot of you dont shoot for a fused image even though my brain will sometimes allow, but by matching them (not perfectly, just closer) seems to aide my brain in back and forth focusing between the images.

I do concur with Wig on the WH/BH subject when running dual band, i almost always run BH unless conditions dictate the need to run WH. It just works better for me.

@PlinkIt keep in mind that these are "our" observations with "our" eyes and there will certainly be some trial and error on your part until you find what suits you best. But hopefully our experiences will give you a good baseline to start from.

 

[MarinePMI]

Well I guess I'm in the minority as far as trying to match!
As I stated in other threads, myself, like a lot of you dont shoot for a fused image even though my brain will sometimes allow, but by matching them (not perfectly, just closer) seems to aide my brain in back and forth focusing between the images.

I do concur with Wig on the WH/BH subject when running dual band, i almost always run BH unless conditions dictate the need to run WH. It just works better for me.

@PlinkIt keep in mind that these are "our" observations with "our" eyes and there will certainly be some trial and error on your part until you find what suits you best. But hopefully our experiences will give you a good baseline to start from.

Nice badge you got there.

 

[Frog05]

Nice badge you got there.

How did that get there!

 

[PlinkIt]

I get what you are saying @wigwamitus but what Is drawing me to try it is the fact that by running the LIF in the rear of what I have I'm getting less eye strain for some reason... Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree but I have been guessing it was the color difference as even if I turn down gain when looking at green I still get a bit tired of looking at them.
Keeping the colors seperate makes good sense for knowing that green equals NV though! No way to get around that

I normally run white hot... I like the darker background and I notice stuff faster when scanning. I've been running like this while using the LIF and I like it for some reason

@Frog05 oh I completely understand that any two of us could end up preferring different things. I talked to a WELL versed NV vendor here at one point that told me the whole "dual band" thing just doesn't really work in the real world.... I know it does for me hunting though. I'm GUESSING from using the LIF as a poor man's WP and liking it better that I would prefer to go WP with the next one though and wanted to see what guys with more access to this stuff were running along with the thermal.
I didn't know you were working with Jay?!

And again... Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree and haven't actually put my finger on why I'm enjoying the poor man's WP better than my green screen.... But I haven't been changing much of anything else and I see with less strain it seems

 

[Frog05]

@Frog05
I didn't know you were working with Jay?!

Yessir I have been for a while, but ive been focused on the social media and special project side of the house until now.
So if you need some white phosphor in your life, hit me up! Lol

 

[wigwamitus]

... I see with less strain it seems ...

... at the end of the day, can't argue with what works for you !!

 

[SnazSleepWalker]

I finally got an IC D-14 bridge to link my GP PVS-14 with my IR Patrol.
I've had the patrol for two months and have held it to my eye while walking with the pvs, but the bridge was a game changer. My eyes instantly linked the images. I was able to spot a heat source with the thermal and then superimpose my IR laser onto that image by looking with the pvs14.
I was also able to passively aim with the pvs through my eotech with the thermal image superimposed.
It felt like a perfect intuitive match. Lucky line-up perhaps, but I consider myself a very adaptable specimen.
White hot palette, thermal on left eye, green pvs14

Edit to mention the IR Patrol is a near perfect 1x magnification, not 1.5x.
Edited again to mention the Norotos INVG mount. It can articulate in so many ways that when I remove the thermal from my left eye to weapon mount it, I can swing the pvs14 from my right to left eye instantaneously to allow me to aim down the thermal.